European Union Referendum Bill

Debate between Lord Stoddart of Swindon and Lord Wallace of Saltaire

Monday 2nd November 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

Would the noble Lord allow for the possibility that the Prime Minister might have reached the position he now holds because of his concept of the British national interest and his position as Prime Minister in trying to define that national interest?

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

Yes, I believe that the Prime Minister believes that, but the British national interest cannot be served in the European Union. That is because the European Union is exactly what it says it is and what it wants to become. It has been made perfectly clear by unelected officials and indeed by elected people that they want further integration. However the Prime Minister tries, he will never be able to join a full Union unless he is prepared to agree to more integration, and that of course will also mean joining the euro. Further integration must include the euro and anyone who wishes to be part of further integration will have to join it or else leave or become some sort of associate member. Those are the facts and we should not try to deny them.

Chilcot Inquiry

Debate between Lord Stoddart of Swindon and Lord Wallace of Saltaire

Monday 3rd November 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, I very much hope nearer. In the debate in the House of Commons last week, my colleague the Minister for Civil Society commented that they very much hoped to have this published before the end of February. We are all conscious that we do not want to have this published in the middle of an election campaign.

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon (Ind Lab)]

My Lords, could we have the report as a Christmas present?

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

There are many things that the noble Lord might like as a Christmas present. I am not sure that I would prefer to read this report, with all its appendices, rather than the novels that I hope my wife will give me for Christmas.

European Union: Recent Developments

Debate between Lord Stoddart of Swindon and Lord Wallace of Saltaire

Monday 17th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

With respect, that is not what the Answer says. Certain countries reached a certain deal with the European Union. By contrast, Norway has a very different arrangement and if the noble Lord were to look at the recent report by the professor who gave an audit of the Norwegian relationship with the European Union, he would see that the conclusion is very firmly that it is integration into the European Union without any form of representation.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, this speech is just approaching 15 minutes, which is considerably longer even than the opening speech. It is rather late and I would ask the noble Lord to be brief.

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

I will just answer the question that was put. Of course I accept what the noble Lord says about Norway. However, that was something for Norway. I am saying that, if you do not want to and do not make an agreement, you do not have to accept every regulation and dictate of the European Union to trade with it. I will finish on that point because I got my 15 minutes.

Business of the House

Debate between Lord Stoddart of Swindon and Lord Wallace of Saltaire

Monday 17th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, 34 speakers have signed up for the European Union debate today. If Back-Bench contributions are kept to around seven minutes each, it would allow the Question for Short Debate to start at around 9 pm and for the House to rise at the target rising time of 10 pm.

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

I am most disappointed by that statement. We are discussing some very important matters. To expect Members to confine their remarks to seven minutes and to expect the House to finish by 10 pm, when, since we had a relevant debate, we have had two Bills and the developments in the EU over the past six months at least, is, quite frankly, a disgrace. I was minded to oppose these matters being discussed, but I know that I would be defeated and would therefore be wasting the time of all those speakers, including myself, who wish to speak in the debate. Having made my view known, I assure the House that I will not abide by the seven-minute suggestion when I speak third-to-last tonight.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, I recall many years ago interrupting the late Lord Shore as he got into his 26th minute in one debate. I trust the noble Lord will be more modest in his approach.

Electoral Registration and Administration Bill

Debate between Lord Stoddart of Swindon and Lord Wallace of Saltaire

Monday 29th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

Of course, and I hope that the noble Lord will apologise in due course to the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, for describing him as moderate.

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

Before the noble and learned Lord either withdraws or presses his amendment, perhaps I may say a few words. I have held back to hear the noble Lord speak from the Front Bench. We have had a very interesting debate. We have covered all sorts of aspects, from the Scottish aspect to whether we should return to the debate about central register and identity cards. We have discussed the nuts and bolts and the administrative problems that arise from the Bill.

The noble Lord said something very interesting about the motivation to vote, which is what concerns me. In a real democracy, the motivation should come from the heart and the mind, and because people believe that it is worth getting on the register and worth going out to vote. I am of an age when the register was about 90% accurate of those who were entitled to be on it. However, that has fallen considerably. People were on the register then because they wanted to be on the register, and they insisted that they were on it—and God help the registration officer if his or her name was not on the register.

Something has gone wrong, because people now do not do that. I go back—because I have fought many elections in my life, as other Members of this House have done. I remember the election of 1955 when in Reading Ian Mikardo was under pressure. In that election, because people were motivated to go out to vote and to be on the register, we got an 85% turnout—and of course he won. He was not supposed to win, but he won because of the people’s motivation. That was a good word that the Minister used. It does not matter what we say about going around and getting people on to the register; what we really need is the motivation of the people themselves to go on to the register and to believe that it is worth going out to vote because it makes a difference. At the moment, they see no difference between the political parties. They believe that it does not matter what they say or what they do because the Westminster and Whitehall elite will do what they think. As well as being concerned in this Bill about the nuts and bolts, the administration and even Scotland, we should really be thinking about whether the political class is doing sufficient to make people enthusiastic about getting on the register and going out to vote.

European Council

Debate between Lord Stoddart of Swindon and Lord Wallace of Saltaire

Monday 24th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

My Lords—

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, we are out of time and we should move to Report.

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

We ought to have 40 minutes, not 20 minutes.

Armed Forces Bill

Debate between Lord Stoddart of Swindon and Lord Wallace of Saltaire

Tuesday 4th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

I am sorry to persist in this but the Companion to the Standing Orders, as I understand it, states that there should be no votes on matters that have been discussed at Report. I cannot understand why the usual channels can be allowed to override what is already in the Companion. It is the Companion and it does not matter what the usual channels say about what they want or see as convenient. They cannot be allowed to override the Companion to the Standing Orders. We are progressing along a dangerous road. If it can be done in this instance, surely it can be done in any instance as the precedent will be set. The Government ought to take the advice of the Clerks and others before they pursue this.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, I am sure that the noble Lord is familiar with the often-used phrase, “It may be for the convenience of the House”. This was an arrangement agreed for the convenience of the House as we were meeting in a week in which one of the parties is holding its conference. This was of course discussed not just by the usual channels but with the Clerks.

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

It is for the convenience of the annual conference, not for the convenience of this House.

European Union Bill

Debate between Lord Stoddart of Swindon and Lord Wallace of Saltaire

Wednesday 13th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord—

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

My Lords—

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

We are now winding up.

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

If anyone wishes to challenge me and move that I no longer be heard, let them do so, but I wish to ask a question. If I had been allowed to do so without the very rude interruption of the Whip on the Bench, noble Lords would have saved themselves a lot of time. What I wanted to ask—and I am going to ask it now—is whether, when the amendment states that a future Government “may”, it means “shall”. We often have debates about what “may” and “shall” should mean, and I think it is important that before noble Lords vote, if there is going to be a vote, they know whether they are voting for something that commits the next Government to something or is permissive for the next Government. Now I will sit down and be quiet.

Could I just add that the Whip on the Bench did not intervene on the noble Lord, Lord Maclennan, who widened the debate on this very narrow amendment to the extent of whether we should be in or out? I think I have been extremely badly treated, and I hope that the Whip will apologise.

European Union Bill

Debate between Lord Stoddart of Swindon and Lord Wallace of Saltaire

Monday 23rd May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

Of course we will reflect on that, but I remind noble Lords that the purpose of this Act is to improve parliamentary scrutiny and oversight of the procedures of the EU.

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

Did I understand the noble Lord correctly when he said that the proposal is that the Official Journal of the European Union should only be published online? If so, that is quite a serious proposal because not everyone has online access.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

I am happy to answer that now: perhaps it will enable us to avoid having a debate on Clause 13, which is largely technical. The Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act makes it entirely clear that there are tight controls on the funding of referendums by political parties and other actors, including those outside the European Union. My understanding of the clause is that the European Commission would not be allowed to spend more than £10,000 in the course of a referendum. I hope that that provides the answer that the noble Lord needs. If any further details are required, I will of course write to him. However, I am sure that he is an expert on PPERA and all the details that the Electoral Commission now oversees.

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

I asked about the new rules which would allow European political parties to campaign in any country on referendums. Does the existing legislation cover expenditure by MEPs in any country, including our own, in case of a referendum? We need to know that.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

I seem to remember that in both the Danish and the Irish referendums there was substantial assistance from Eurosceptic groups in this country in terms of finance and people—but perhaps I am wrong about that. Perhaps my memory is at fault. Perhaps we should consider whether there should be an amendment at a later stage to ensure that such British groups are prevented from intervening in other countries’ referendums. I will have to take advice on that and on some other matters.

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

I am most obliged to the Minister for giving way again, but the point about MEPs is that they will be able to use their expenses to campaign, and that is taxpayers’ money. If people give voluntarily, that is a matter for them, within the election rules, but if MEPs are spending taxpayers’ money, that is another business. I appreciate that the Minister cannot reply now, but when he considers the matter further he will perhaps take that into consideration.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

I will refer back to the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act.

European Union Bill

Debate between Lord Stoddart of Swindon and Lord Wallace of Saltaire

Tuesday 17th May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

If needed and if we are still discussing the Bill, there will of course be an adjournment. Some of us hope that we might possibly—if we manage to stick to the subject of the amendments—have finished the Committee stage by then. I want to address the amendments, I do not wish to divert into fish and—

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

After the apology the Minister has made for the late start and the Bill being put on again on Wednesday, the eve of the Whitsun Recess, why on earth do the Government have to do that? It has been pointed out time and again by the Government themselves that the provisions of this Bill will not take effect until the end of this Parliament. We also have a Session which goes through until next May. So what on earth is the hurry? I could understand it if the Government were short of time and had a lot of Bills to get through quickly, but this is a Bill that does not have to get through so quickly. There is no reason why they should inconvenience Members as they have been doing.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, I shall resist going down that great sideline. We have a certain amount of time remaining in this Committee stage if we manage to keep to the subject and avoid talking about great trucks, fish, rifles, minarets and Britain standing alone in 1940 before the United States and the Soviet Union came in—and I think those countries had a little to do with the United Kingdom’s victory over Nazism. I want to address myself to the amendment.

The noble Lord, Lord Pearson, suggested that the total cost may amount to £100 billion a year. I thought that was rather modest. Daniel Hannan MEP, who I know the noble Lord knows well, suggested in his blog the other week—I had heard him say it previously—that withholding our contribution to the EU would enable us to cancel every spending cut and still knock a third off council tax. That must be an estimate of around £160 billion a year. The Treasury estimate is that the UK’s net contribution to the EU budget will be £7.7 billion in 2012-13, rising to £8.9 billion in 2014-15, and then falling to £8.2 billion in 2015-16. These are unavoidably estimates, partly because, as noble Lords will be aware, a surplus is routinely entered into the EU budget each year that serves to reduce member states’ contributions the following year. The initial estimate of the British contribution might therefore be rather higher than the net result declared the following year. As the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, demonstrated in the figures that he so dazzlingly threw out, the exact calculation of how much each member state gives is itself a matter of some controversy.

European Union Bill

Debate between Lord Stoddart of Swindon and Lord Wallace of Saltaire

Tuesday 26th April 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

I do not think that I have ever said that. I have never accused the Labour Party of gerrymandering and bringing millions of people over here to vote for it. The noble Lord might have seen it in a newspaper but I have certainly never used it.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

I apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart. I was in no way suggesting that his imagination had stretched that far. Perhaps I might return to the amendment because I hope that after dinner we are going to keep to each of them. My puzzlement on this one is that I see nothing in the Bill that cramps the powers and competences of the European Court of Justice to enforce compliance with European Union law. Her Majesty’s Government support an effective European Union—as did our predecessors, as the noble Lord, Lord Mandelson, said—and strongly support the better implementation of European Union law. We shall continue to do so.