Tobacco and Related Products Regulations 2016

Lord Stoddart of Swindon Excerpts

Tuesday 10th May 2016 Grand Committee

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon (Ind Lab)]

My Lords, I first declare an interest, because this is a tobacco and related products order and I am an associate member of the Houses of Parliament Pipe and Cigar Smokers’ Club. I am an associate member because I am a non-smoker, so they tolerate me. I am pleased to be a member of that club because I believe that the attitude towards smoking has been quite absurd in many respects. Measures have been taken against the smoking population—I am talking about the adult smoking population—that are not appropriate in a democratic society, which should allow adults to make choices about their lifestyle and not be dictated to by government.

However, we are not talking about tobacco today. I only just saw the Prayer from the noble Viscount, Lord Ridley—if it is a Prayer—for the debate that he has instituted today, and I think that he and other noble Lords have really put the case. As far as I am concerned, there is probably nothing else to say, except to give them support in resisting the Government’s, and of course the EU’s, decisions to restrict a product that is going to assist others in giving up tobacco smoking. That is almost impossible to believe: that a Government who have been so anti-smoking, and who have themselves brought in so many anti-smoking measures over the years—I have been involved with them for at least 25 years—should now, when we are on the brink of assisting people to give up tobacco smoking, put these very stringent restrictions upon them. Why on earth are they banning the advertising of them if they are a health benefit to people who smoke and the Government think that people ought to give up smoking? To me, that seems to be an absolutely absurd position.

Have there been consultations with the producers of what are called e-cigarettes, but perhaps that was a mistake because they are not cigarettes? Anyone who mentions cigarettes is immediately jumped on by the Government and the department, so it may have been a mistake to label them as cigarettes since they clearly are not and should not be treated as such. Have Ministers had discussions with these producers? I ask that question because the department and Ministers refuse even to meet and have discussions with the tobacco companies. Perhaps that is understandable because the World Health Organization recommends that they should not be given a voice. However, in this case it is something that will help people to give up tobacco. Again, have they had discussions with the people who produce e-cigarettes? I should like to know the answer to that.

The only other thing I have to say is this. I hope that the Government will listen to this debate, although in fact there is not much hope of that because in the past trying to get the Government to listen to reason is like banging your head against a brick wall. It does not matter what you say. They have their policies, but when they get into government, they often change them. I can remember sitting on the other side of the Moses Room and listening to a former health Minister speaking—not voting—against some of the measures that were being introduced by the Labour Party. An example of those was the hiding of cigarettes behind blinds. He was against that, and indeed I well remember him meeting with retailers and saying how a Conservative Government would see that that was repealed. But of course they are in government now and so they are in favour of it, and they have brought forward this legislation. It is not about banning a dangerous product like cigarettes; it is about a product which helps people to stop smoking.

So I hope that the Minister will listen carefully to the experiences of those who have spoken in this debate. I should add that I have met many people, including a relative of mine, who had been heavy smokers but were weaned off smoking by using e-cigarettes. I am obliged to the noble Viscount, Lord Ridley, for seeing to it that we have had a proper debate and I hope that the Government will listen to it.

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

My Lords, I should start by apologising to the noble Viscount, Lord Ridley, for missing the first few minutes of his speech. I appear to be a dupe to the railway industry at the moment. Today’s excuse for the cancellation of my train was a broken windscreen, which I thought was pretty unique. It was a 125 mile-an-hour Pendolino, so I suppose that the windscreen ought to be intact for the whole of the journey.

I agree very much with what has been said from both sides. I do not have any financial or personal interests to declare, although at the age of 74 I know that my generation are habitual smokers. I was surrounded by smokers. Both my parents smoked and, when I went to work for the railway industry, virtually everybody I worked with smoked. However, unlike the noble Lord, Lord Brabazon, or the noble Earl, Lord Cathcart, I managed to find the will-power to give up about 30 years ago. I did it purely by terrifying myself. It became apparent that smoking was synonymous with lung cancer. I convinced myself that every cigarette I lit was the one that was going to give me lung cancer, so eventually I terrified myself into stopping.

However, I do not understand the purpose of this SI or the fact that we are going to ban products that will help people to give up smoking. Like other speakers, I do not believe that someone who is currently a non-smoker will move from vaping to tobacco. Surely it has been proved, or is obvious enough, that people move the other way—from tobacco to vaping—and I cannot understand why the Government are so ready to accept this SI. That is not to say that I am getting involved in what is going to happen on 23 June.

There is a group of people whom the Government ought to be concerned about regarding smoking in the future. As I go round the country, I am concerned about the number of young people who smoke, particularly the number of young women, many of whom believe that smoking helps them to stay fairly slim—I was going to say “fit”, although obviously it does not do that. Anything that would help them to come off tobacco would be good. I have no doubt that the two medical doctors who will reply for both sides will tell us that there is no scientific evidence that smoking keeps you trim. However, I again quote my own experience. I put on a stone and a half quite quickly when I gave up smoking. There was no medical reason for that. It is a fact that smokers are anxious to put down their knives and forks and head for the door to have a cigarette immediately after the main course. Once I gave up smoking, I stayed for the ice cream and puddings and so on. So I want to know from the medical profession, from both sides of the Room, which will kill me first—smoking or my spare tyre. Understandably, I have been warned about both.

Mention was made by the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, of the reduced-risk tobacco products, such as the “heat-not-burn” products, which I understand the industry is currently looking at. I understand that the Chancellor mentioned these products in his recent Budget. I would be interested to know from the Minister what the Government’s intentions are. I fear that if the Treasury acts in the way that it usually acts under any Government, it will be another excuse to tax something as heavily as possible. However, if we are serious—which we are—about weaning people off the demon that is tobacco, then banning alternative products which are proven to be less dangerous is a far from sensible way forward, and I would be interested to hear from both Front Benches why they are apparently supporting this SI.

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[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Lord Prior of Brampton) (Con)]

My Lords, I do not know whether to thank my noble friend Lord Ridley for bringing this debate here today or not. The arguments that have been put have been very powerful and it would be obtuse of me to say otherwise.

Perhaps I can start by going back to the opening words of my noble friend Lord Ridley, who said that there are three ways of trying to influence the behaviour of people doing things that do harm: you can punish them; you can hector them; or you can try to offer safer alternatives. In the article he wrote in the Times some time ago, he used the example of methadone as something that is not desirable in itself but is used as a means of treating people with heroin addiction.

In the case of tobacco we have tried all three things. We have penalised people through taxation, we have hectored them incessantly for years, and having tried nicotine replacement therapies, in a sense vaping is a way of encouraging people to use something that is considerably less harmful than smoking. Actually, most people would agree that we have been hugely successful in reducing the consumption of tobacco in England. I was asked for a statement of the Government’s view on vaping; I think I can say unequivocally that we are in favour of it as a means for people to come off smoking cigarettes. There is absolutely no question about that. The reports produced by Public Health England and most recently and very powerfully by the Royal College of Physicians entirely endorse that view. The president of the Royal College of Physicians, Professor Jane Dacre, said in response to the report:

“With careful management and proportionate regulation, harm reduction provides an opportunity to improve the lives of millions of people”.

I pick that out because she used the words “proportionate regulation”, and that is really what we are discussing today. It is not about whether we are in favour of vaping or not, it is about what kind of regulation should be around it.

On the European element, given that the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, could not resist throwing that in as one of his questions, I am not sure whether if we had been left to our own devices we might not have come out with something far worse several years ago. The noble Lord was kind enough to mention the original views of PHE and the MHRA, so we may well have brought in a licensing system or even have banned them altogether. I am not sure that one can lay this at the door of Brussels or indeed our own Government. We have been far too quick to resort to regulation in many areas and as a rule I am wholly in sympathy with less regulation. That is the best place to start. What we are discussing today is whether this regulation is proportionate, what damage it could do or what the directive’s unintended consequences might be.

I should just mention while I have it to hand, to put the concerns of my noble friend Lord Brabazon of Tara to rest, that the concentration which he is taking it at will not be affected. It will not have to be licensed by the MHRA, but sadly I cannot say the same to my noble friend Lord Cathcart, who at 2.4% is higher than 2%, which is the cut-off point for licensing. But I shall come to that in more detail in a minute, if I can.

Perhaps I may pick up on a few of the fears that noble Lords have expressed about the directive and see whether I can allay their minds today. It has been said that the directive will ban flavourings in e-liquids. I should make it clear that it will not do so. What it does say is that flavourings which pose a risk to human health should not be used; we could probably all agree that that is a sensible rule. There is an additive called diacetyl, which I think is also used in the making of popcorn, and there are other flavourings where there is some evidence that airways can be inflamed. The noble Lord appears to be questioning that, but I think the RCP report cites evidence that some flavourings can cause damage.

It has also been said that the directive will ban all advertising and prevent shop owners communicating with their customers. It does not do that. The new rules do not prevent information being provided to customers either online or in physical retail outlets, nor does it ban online forums, independently compiled reviews or blogs. Some advertising will also be allowed, such as point-of-sale, billboards and leaflets, subject to the rules set out in existing advertising codes to ensure that these do not appeal to people aged under 18 or non-users. There will therefore remain a wide range of information on the products available to smokers who wish to buy these products.

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

I take it that they will not be allowed to advertise on television—am I right about that? I see television adverts from the pharmaceutical companies for Nicorette and that sort of thing, so why on earth should these products be treated differently?

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[Lord Prior of Brampton]

I certainly hope that enforcement will be more Italian than traditionally British, if I may put it that way.

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

I am obliged to the Minister for giving way yet again. I understand that he has no power over taxation but, as a member of the department, he has the opportunity to make recommendations to the Treasury. Would he be prepared to ask his department to recommend to the Treasury that it should not put any tax, other than VAT, on this product?

[Lord Prior of Brampton]

My Lords, I am not responsible for public health in the Department of Health but I will talk to my honourable friend Jane Ellison, who is the Minister for Public Health and will put that view to her very strongly.

Standardised Packaging of Tobacco Products Regulations 2015

Lord Stoddart of Swindon Excerpts

Monday 16th March 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords—

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon (Ind Lab)]

I have been very patient. Let me first declare my interest: I am a member of the Lords and Commons Cigar Club. Although I am a non-smoker, they tolerate me. I suppose I am an associate member rather than a full one.

The more I have listened to this debate—and I have listened to the whole of it—the more I feel that it should have been about a Bill to abolish tobacco. It has not really been about packaging but about the evils of tobacco and the tobacco companies. The attack on the tobacco companies by the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, was one of the best I have ever heard him make. No doubt they will take note of what he said. However, the noble Viscount, Lord Falkland, was right. If we believe that tobacco is so dangerous—the noble Lord, Lord Walton, had no doubts about how dangerous it is—we should bring forward a Bill to ban tobacco as a dangerous drug. So long as that is not done, all this talk about tobacco is sheer hypocrisy. The Government are hypocritical about it because they do not want to lose the money that it gives to the Exchequer. They are trying to get rid of tobacco smoking but they will not come out and say so in the open. They will do it by stealth. This order is one of stealth.

I have been in this House since 1983 and in that time have spent some 25 years talking about tobacco and restrictions on it. Indeed, I remember that during the last Government I sat in a committee on the same side as the Minister, who then opposed the—what was it called?—ban on tobacco display. We were on the same side at that particular time, as he will recall. That went through but, of course, it has not yet been fully implemented. It does not come fully into law until April. Before we have the display ban, we now have the plain packaging ban. It would be useful if we could implement previous legislation before we start bringing forward more legislation. Does the House not think that that is sensible? The Government obviously do not think that it is.

Francis Report: Update and Response

Lord Stoddart of Swindon Excerpts

Wednesday 11th February 2015 Lords Chamber

[Earl Howe]

The answer to that must lie chiefly with the way in which the CQC now operates. One of the domains that it pays attention to in its inspections is the well led domain. Is this an organisation that has leaders in it who are aware of what is going on in the hospital, have a clear vision and a strategy for that hospital and are in touch with patients’ views and experiences, not least through complaints? These, and a whole range of other factors, are what the CQC looks at when assessing the quality of the leadership. The noble Lord is, of course, quite right that this must be and remain a key ingredient of a successful NHS culture and good-quality care for patients. We now have a system in which poor leadership will be exposed quite rapidly.

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon (Ind Lab)]

My Lords, first, I am quite astounded that people should be treated in this way by one of our great national services. Secondly, will the Minister tell us whether arrangements were put in place whereby people who felt aggrieved or threatened would be able to appeal? Thirdly, will he also tell us what the trade union involvement was, and whether the unions were obstructed from doing their proper job of protecting their members? Finally, are the trade unions going to be consulted about this report to give them ideas about how they could be better involved in protecting their membership?

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, that the examples of poor care exposed by Sir Robert’s report were shocking. In many respects, the work he has done and the recommendations he has made constitute a wake-up call for everybody in the NHS—even those who are providing a very good service, which most of the NHS is providing.

There are many levels of protection for NHS employees. An employee can always lodge an appeal if they feel aggrieved and turn to their trade union for support in that context. We intend to consult widely on Sir Robert’s recommendations, including with the trade unions. We welcome their input to these ideas and look forward to further discussions—which, in the normal course, happen very regularly anyway.

Children and Families Bill

Lord Stoddart of Swindon Excerpts

Wednesday 29th January 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I shall speak also to my Amendments 61 and 57BB. I very much welcome Her Majesty’s Government’s change of heart as far as standardised packaging is concerned, and I certainly welcome the appointment of Sir Cyril Chantler to review the evidence. Sir Cyril is known to many of your Lordships and has made a significant contribution to the NHS. We can have complete confidence in his work.

My two amendments are designed to press the noble Earl on the comments he made in his final remarks and to encourage him to give the House an absolute assurance that should Sir Cyril Chantler conclude that the evidence is clear that standardised packaging is effective in reducing the risk of harm to children, the Government will speedily move to lay the regulations specified in his Amendment 57B. The noble Earl will know that at the moment line 3 of his amendment merely says,

“The Secretary of State may make regulations”.

I would have preferred to see the word “must”. To an extent, the noble Earl has already explained why it is to be “may”, but are there any circumstances where, on the assumption that Sir Cyril has concluded positively, the Government would not proceed to legislate?

Amendment 57BB concerns the proposal that it be an offence for any person who drives a vehicle to fail to prevent smoking in the vehicle where a child or children are present. I do this on the basis that the past 15 years have seen an impressive reduction in the amount of smoking in this country. Indeed, since the previous Government’s 1998 Smoking Kills action plan, smoking rates among children, who are, of course, the focus of this Bill, have fallen by more than half following a period of little progress lasting 20 years. I have little doubt that the ban on advertising was pivotal, but the fall was also due to a series of other concerned measures which included an increase in the age of sale, picture warnings on packs and an above-inflation increase in tobacco duty to reduce affordability.

I believe that we should continue the momentum and protect future generations from the dangers of smoking. That is why I welcome the Government’s agreement to legislate on standardised packages and the proposals that the Minister has outlined today in relation to proxy purchasing and the restriction of the sale of e-cigarettes to under 18 year-olds. However, the Government could do more by accepting my amendments and support the principle of a ban on the use of cigarettes when children are present in cars.

Children’s lungs are smaller and they have faster breathing rates, which makes them particularly vulnerable to second-hand smoke, especially within the close confines of a car. Members of the public are protected by smoke-free legislation when in public transport and work vehicles. However, large numbers of children remain exposed to high concentrations of second-hand smoke when confined in family cars. Indeed, around one child in five reports being regularly exposed to second-hand smoke in cars, with catastrophic health consequences. Figures released by the British Lung Foundation show that around 185,000 children between the ages of 11 and 15 in England are exposed to potentially toxic concentrations of second-hand smoke in their family car every day or on most days.

We know that children exposed to second-hand smoke have a raised risk of lower respiratory infections, wheeze, asthma, middle ear infections and meningitis. Every year, exposure to second-hand smoke leads to an estimated 165,000 additional cases of these conditions among children. Many of those cases are serious, leading to an estimated 8,500 hospital admissions.

I was very surprised by research identified by the British Lung Foundation, which shows that a single cigarette smoked in a moving car with the window half open exposes a child in the centre of the back seat to around two-thirds as much second-hand smoke as in an average smoke-filled pub of days gone by. Levels increase to 11 times those of a smoky pub when the cigarette is smoked in a stationary car with the windows closed.

Some noble Lords will argue—as I heard the FOREST spokesman arguing this morning—that a car is a private space and that we should not legislate for what happens in such a space. However, there are more important principles than that, one of which is the need for child protection. Unlike most adults, children lack the freedom to decide when and how to travel, and they lack the authority most adults have to ask people not to smoke in their company. In those circumstances it is right for Parliament to step in to protect children.

I know that the Government argue that the most effective way to reduce smoking in cars carrying children is not through legislation. In his letter to us the noble Earl talked of two successful campaigns aimed at encouraging people to change their behaviour, and said that the evaluations are encouraging. From what I see—and they do not appear to be very robust evaluations—I am not aware that the scientific evidence of behavioural change has been published. Can he give an assurance that the evaluations spanned several months and not just immediately after the campaign? Can he also confirm that they took into account what was reported by children and not just adults? There is sometimes a discrepancy between what adults say they do and their behaviour as reported by children. Can he also confirm that the research includes actual measurement of behavioural change? I do not believe that marketing measures such as website visits effectively demonstrate behaviour change. Can the noble Earl also say why, if the Government are so keen on evaluation, Ministers forced NICE to abandon a project to give public health guidance for commissioners and providers on the development and implementation of policies on smoke-free homes, private cars and other vehicles?

The noble Earl will argue that this is best done through education. I understand that argument and I certainly accept that education programmes can achieve much. However, my contention is that we are now close to—

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon (Ind Lab)]

I have listened to the noble Lord very carefully and I cannot understand—perhaps he can explain it to me—why on earth he has joined the question of plain packaging with smoking in cars. They are two completely different issues. Is it expected that those of us who are concerned with both amendments now have to speak in one debate rather than two, on two particularly difficult and important matters?

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, a number of amendments have been grouped together. Some deal with standardised packaging, others with the issue of smoking in cars. My answer to the noble Lord is that we will deal with both issues in one debate. The House always has to trade off having separate debates on individual amendments or pulling them together. I, for one, think it is better that we have a wider debate; but of course the noble Lord is entitled to speak on both issues. I hope that he will do so because he always has interesting insights—although I do not always agree with him on this particular one.

In finishing, I want to come back—and anticipating the noble Earl’s response—to the issues around awareness campaigns. As I said, of course they can achieve much, but sometimes legislation also needs to be brought into the picture.

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[Lord Scott of Foscote]

My Lords, I wish to add a word on the amendment about smoking in cars when children are present. I do not wish to say anything about standardised packaging because I thoroughly support the amendment on that. However, so far as smoking is concerned, the support for the relevant amendment is focused on smoking in motor cars. However, that is not what the amendment says. It refers to “a private vehicle”. Motor cars are a very common—perhaps the most common—species of private vehicle, but there are all sorts of other private vehicles that one must take into account as well. The word “drives”, commonly used in relation to motor vehicles, comes from the driving of carriages and ponies and traps. Suppose that somebody has a pony and trap, and has a child in the trap, why on earth should he or she not smoke? If this amendment were confined simply to motor cars, I would have no objection to it at all; indeed, I think that I would support it. However, in relation to all private vehicles, it simply goes too far. I do not believe that was intended and I think the wording should be modified accordingly.

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

My Lords, I think the score is about 10 or 11 to one in favour of the amendments. I will be the second noble Lord to speak against both amendments. I shall take a little while to do so.

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

If we consider this in terms of the time given to the “fors” and the “againsts”, as I have already said, it is about 11 to one, and it is going to be about 11 to two. I intend to make the points that I intended to make before this debate started.

First, I declare my interest. I am an associate member of the Lords and Commons Pipe and Cigar Smokers’ Club. I am an associate member because I do not smoke, but I believe that users of a legal product should be allowed to enjoy it without continuous harassment by government and an army of lobbyists such as ASH, which is subsidised, and the BMA. Smokers, unfortunately, are treated as social lepers, although let us not forget that they contribute some £10.5 billion per annum to the Treasury. If they are such lepers, perhaps we should not accept their money.

In my view, the amendment of the noble Earl, Lord Howe, is perhaps one of the most extreme Henry VIII pieces of legislation that I have ever seen, and I am sorry to see that it is in his name. I want to take the House back in history to 4 February 2009. Let us hear what the noble Earl said then, when we were discussing the ban on tobacco displays:

“The Bill’s proposals to outlaw point-of-sale displays of tobacco products are unjustified and repressive. The evidence to back them up is flimsy, and the data has been hyped. In 2002, when tobacco advertising was banned, the Government said that they had no plans to interfere with the right of retailers to display a perfectly legal product in shops. We must be absolutely sure of our ground before removing that right”.—[Official Report, 4/2/09; col. 749.]

I believe that the noble Earl was right then and is wrong today because he is going further than the previous Government dared to do. Not only have we banned the display of cigarette packets and what have you but now plain packaging will be banned as well, and that seems quite an absurdity.

The new clause proposed in Amendment 57B is so detailed as to be almost incomprehensible. The Government are now proposing to intervene in the nooks and crannies of design and, indeed, even in the fabric of cigarette and other tobacco packets. There are 19 ways in which the Government are going to intervene and tell the tobacco manufacturers how they can display their products. That, I believe, is going much too far. In passing, I suppose that I ought to note that the display legislation is not yet fully operative—small retailers will not be banned from displaying these products until 2015. So here we are, before the ban even comes into force, going even further than the previous Government did, which at the time the noble Earl, Lord Howe, opposed.

We have heard a lot in the past few days about cutting regulation but the Government are also increasing regulation, of which this amendment is the nastiest example. I do not have time to go into the complete detail, although I should go through the whole amendment but I will not.

Tobacco: Control

Lord Stoddart of Swindon Excerpts

Tuesday 19th June 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, I can only agree with the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, that tobacco is extremely damaging to public health. There is no safe level of smoking, and as a party to the Framework Convention on Tobacco Control, the UK has an obligation to take its undertakings very seriously—which means to develop public health policy free from influence from the vested commercial interests of a very powerful industry. However, that does not mean that we close our ears to what the tobacco industry may have to say: we are very happy to hear from it in writing. That promotes transparency, which I think assists everybody in a freedom of information context.

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

But is it not hypocritical of a Government—not only this one but previous Governments—to refuse to meet the tobacco industry, which is their tax-gatherer to the extent of £10.5 billion a year? If they had any honour and really believed that tobacco is such a bad commodity they would ban it. If they believe that, why do they not?

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, across government we recognise the need for Ministers or officials from other government departments to meet the tobacco industry within the parameters set under the framework convention. There may be legitimate operational reasons why such meetings might be necessary—for example, Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs sometimes meets the tobacco industry to discuss measures to reduce the illicit trade in tobacco. So it is not as if all government departments have closed their doors, but there is a very specific issue to do with Health Ministers and health officials.

Health and Social Care Bill

Lord Stoddart of Swindon Excerpts

Monday 28th November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff]

My Lords, I would be grateful if the Minister could let us know whether the department considered the BMA resolution in council at the end of last week to now oppose the Bill and campaign against it, when the BMA was coming to its decision to appeal against the release of the information. If not, will it be considered in the next steps the Government take, given that it signals a major loss of confidence in the Bill by the BMA?

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

How long is it likely to take for the appeal and the decision? If the decision disallows the appeal, will the Government accept that?

[Lord Butler of Brockwell]

My Lords, the problem is not what may be contained in a particular risk register, as the Minister has said, but the precedent that it sets for all other risk registers. There may be nothing in this register that is particularly sensational or has not been released. However, once this case is conceded it will nullify the effect of all risk registers across government. If people think these risk registers are valuable it must be the case, as the Minister has said, that people look at the worst risks and do so frankly, and if they make them anodyne then the purpose of the registers is entirely lost.

Tobacco Advertising and Promotion (Display and Specialist Tobacconists) (England) (Amendment) Regulations 2011

Lord Stoddart of Swindon Excerpts

Monday 11th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

My Lords, I had better declare an interest, as did the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, in that I am an associate member of the Lords and Commons Cigar and Pipe Smokers’ Club. I am an associate member because I do not smoke, and I therefore cannot be a full member. Nevertheless, I have sympathy with the club’s aims, which are to give some support and protection to people who smoke.

Smoking is, as we have heard tonight, perfectly legal. In spite of all the attacks made on smokers, at least 21 per cent of the population still decides to smoke. In spite of all the measures that have been taken and all the high costs of cigarettes, a fifth of the population still wishes to smoke. Their rights deserve just as much consideration as in any other practice, whatever that may be. They are entitled to the same consideration and protection.

I am most surprised that these regulations from the coalition Government are before the House tonight, because I well remember during our discussion in Committee on the Health Bill in 2009 that the noble Earl, Lord Howe, was very doubtful about these measures of screening tobacco products from the public. It really is an imposition that retailers are prohibited from displaying a legal commodity. That undermines freedom. Make no mistake about it; if you allow people to sell a product and say that it is legal to sell it, why on earth then say that although they want to sell it and advertise it, they may not do so—they may not display to people that they can buy a certain product in their shop?

There is a lot of hypocrisy about smoking. If people believe, as the noble Lord, Lord Judd, and others do, that this is the most dangerous product in the world, they ought to come forward bravely and ban it. That is the answer. Why is it not banned? There are probably two reasons. The first is because of the £10 billion which the Treasury gets every year from the sale of tobacco. The Treasury loves to have that money; make no mistake about that. The other reason is that the cost of enforcing the ban would be so high that it would probably have to spend another £10 billion doing so.

[Lord Judd]

Of course it is powerful to argue that people like me should come out for a ban. We recognise that there is a balance between individual freedom and what is decided about society. That arises in the context of smoking. We are dealing with measures that delay the introduction of a scheme to discourage people from taking up the habit. We are dealing with a proactive situation that is encouraging people to smoke. There is a fundamental difference here.

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

There is absolutely no difference at all. The brewers and the distillers wish to promote their product. They want people to start drinking as soon as possible because they make big profits out of people drinking. The noble Lord, Lord Judd, waxed eloquent about the dangers of tobacco. I remind him about the even worse dangers of alcohol addiction. Why are we not doing the same about alcohol? If people smoke, they do not go home at night and beat their wives and children. People who drink too much alcohol do that. Indeed, they kill people outside pubs. Cirrhosis of the liver kills many people at a very young age. Why are we allowing drinks to be displayed? Why do we not tax alcohol in the way that tobacco is taxed?

There are lots of arguments against using this huge sledgehammer against tobacco retailers in particular. We know that a lot of pubs have closed because of the smoking ban in public places. How many retailers will go out of business because of this ban? I have been a small retailer myself, and not everyone realises that the very fact that cigarettes are on display and people go in and buy them helps retailers to sell other things as well. They are not just tobacco retailers, they retail a whole host of other things, and the fact that they are selling and displaying tobacco helps them to sell other products.

I really would like to speak for a long time about this—after all, so far the debate has been rather one-sided—but I realise that time is getting on, there is another Bill to be discussed and the Minister has yet to reply. I repeat that I am surprised that we have this legislation before us tonight, and I will allow the Minister to tell us all about it.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe)]

My Lords, may I begin by saying how much I welcome the opportunity to debate the noble Baroness’s Motion, and that I recognise the key role she played in taking provisions through your Lordships’ House to end the display of tobacco in shops? I add my thanks to all noble Lords who have spoken.

The Healthy Lives, Healthy People White Paper sets out the coalition Government’s determination to improve the health of the nation and the health of the poorest fastest. The tobacco control plan for England, published on 9 March, was the first of a number of follow-on documents on how we will improve public health in specific areas. I welcome the positive remarks made by the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, and others about that plan.

Smoking remains one of our most significant public health challenges, and causes over 80,000 premature deaths in England alone each year. While rates of smoking have continued to decline over the past decades, 21 per cent of adults in England still smoke. Smoking contributes significantly to health inequalities and is the single biggest cause of inequalities in death rates between the richest and the poorest in our communities. Smoking also costs society a great deal. Treating smoking-related disease is estimated to cost the NHS in England some £2.7 billion every year, a point brought out very well by the noble Lord, Lord Judd. Some 5 per cent of hospital admissions for people aged 35 and over in England each year are attributed to smoking.

It is clear that we must keep up the momentum to reduce the harm of tobacco use. The tobacco control plan sets out how comprehensive tobacco control will be delivered over the next five years within the new public health system. The take-up of smoking by young people is a particular concern. Smoking is an addiction largely taken up in childhood and adolescence, so it is crucial to reduce the number of young people taking up smoking in the first place. Nicotine is extremely addictive and young people can develop a dependence on tobacco rapidly. Each year in England an estimated 320,000 children under 16 try smoking for the first time, and the majority of smokers say they were smoking regularly by the age of 18.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

The noble Earl, Lord Howe, has just said that nicotine is very addictive. Is he aware that a cigarette that delivers nicotine to the body without smoke has been developed? Do the Government plan to ban non-smoking cigarettes?

[Earl Howe]

The noble Lord asks a very interesting question. I have seen some papers in the department about that particular product. I am not in a position yet to give the noble Lord any definitive answer, but I would be glad to do so once the Government have reached a view on the matter. It is a very new development.

I mentioned just now that the majority of smokers say that they were smoking regularly by the age of 18—that is, before the age at which you can now lawfully purchase tobacco products. However, we also recognise that while nicotine keeps tobacco users physically dependent, a wide range of social and behavioural factors encourage young people to take up smoking and make it harder for tobacco users to quit. To promote health and well-being we will work to encourage communities across England to reshape social norms so that tobacco becomes less desirable, less acceptable and less accessible. We want all communities to see a tobacco-free world as the norm and we aim to stop the perpetuation of smoking from one generation to the next. To reduce smoking uptake by young people, we all need to influence the adult world in which they grow up. We must also remove the considerable social barriers that smokers face when they are trying to quit.

One focus of the Government’s tobacco control plan is that we must do as much as we can to stop the recruitment of new young smokers. We know that teenagers are susceptible to experimenting even when there is clear evidence of the dangers. The noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, expressed some surprise that the Government have decided to maintain the ban on tobacco displays. We looked at the evidence and there is evidence that the display of tobacco in shops can promote smoking. We believe that eye-catching displays encourage young people to try smoking. Displays also undermine attempts by adults to quit by tempting them to make impulse buys of tobacco. That is why we are implementing the legislation set out in the Health Act 2009, and related regulations, to end tobacco displays in shops. This will help to change perceptions of the social norms around smoking, especially by young people, who are often the target of tobacco promotion.

However, the Government are also committed to amending the display regulations to mitigate burdens on business. The growth review announced by my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer in November last year aims to reduce the regulatory burden on business, particularly on small and medium-sized enterprises and micro-businesses. In line with this priority, as set out in my Written Ministerial Statement made to your Lordships’ House when the tobacco control plan was published on 9 March, we will both delay the implementation of the tobacco display legislation and make it more practical for shopkeepers. The amending regulations that we are discussing today implement the first step by changing the start dates so that the legislation will apply to large stores on 6 April next year and on 6 April 2015 to all other stores, including small shops.

Of course, delaying implementation will delay the expected public health benefits, but this is only one initiative within our tobacco control plan. The noble Lord, Lord Judd, and the noble Baroness, Lady Gale, picked up the point we made that we still aim to maintain the public health gains. The evidence shows that limiting displays can be expected to reduce the number of young people taking up smoking and help quit attempts by adults, but we do not expect an immediate, dramatic effect on rates of smoking prevalence. The effect will be long term as successive cohorts of young people grow up in a world of free of tobacco displays.

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, the principle behind my noble friend’s question is certainly unarguable. He makes a very good point that if somebody is concealing the true basis on which they are making representations then that is clearly undesirable. I will take his point back to my colleagues in the department. Nevertheless, in this particular case the mischief lies in the obfuscation that we have seen on the part of the tobacco industry; I am not aware of any other obfuscation that has been at play in this context.

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

I understand that the Government refuse to meet the tobacco manufacturers. Is that the case and if it is are the Government not missing a trick? If they met the tobacco manufacturers they would be able to put all these points of view to them across the table.

[Earl Howe]

I am not aware that any of my coalition Government colleagues have met representatives of the tobacco industry face to face. I have met representatives of the tobacco industry in the past but not in my capacity as a Minister. It is possible that officials in the Department of Health have had dialogue with the tobacco industry but I cannot give the noble Lord any details because they are not in my brief. If I am able to enlighten him I shall gladly do so.

The noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, asked why we had not published any details of government meetings with the tobacco industry. I would say to her that we take very seriously our commitments under the WHO framework convention. We are taking forward work to implement all the commitments in the plan; we will make sure that we publish details of policy-related meetings between the tobacco industry and government departments and we are currently exploring the most effective and appropriate mechanism for doing that.

The noble Baroness and other noble Lords suggested that the decision to delay the display regulations was unduly influenced by the tobacco industry. I want to take this opportunity to reject that emphatically. We are well aware of the views of the tobacco industry through public consultation, correspondence, press articles and the open lobbying that it does. We have listened carefully to the views of a range of retail organisations as well as the public health community; nevertheless we believe that retailers have genuine concerns and that they deserve our support. We have a clear mind on supporting business during these challenging times and we believe that a balance has been fairly struck, although it is open to noble Lords to disagree with that.

My noble friend Lord Naseby and the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, mentioned the issue of plain packaging. the tobacco control plan includes a commitment to consult on options to reduce the promotional impact of tobacco packaging, including an option to require plain packaging before the end of 2011. I must emphasise that the Government have an open mind on plain packaging, and we will use the consultation to gain an understanding of the views of interested parties.

My noble friend Lord Rennard asked what we are doing about illicit tobacco sales. Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs published a renewed strategy to tackle the illicit trade in tobacco products in April of this year. Our tobacco control plan complements that strategy by stressing the importance of cracking down on illicit tobacco sales, which will in turn reduce tobacco consumption and organised crime and will support legitimate retailers. It is relevant to add that there is no evidence from countries that have stopped tobacco displays in shops that a prohibition increases the illicit trade. For example, we are told by the Irish Government that stopping tobacco displays in the Republic in July 2009 has not caused the illicit trade to increase there. According to a report published earlier this year by Japan Tobacco International, an estimated 22 per cent to 24 per cent of all tobacco consumed in Ireland evaded Irish excise duty, but that is actually a decrease from 2009. It is the first decline since recording began in 2005.

So there are two imperatives here. The Government are committed to improving public health, including by reducing rates of smoking. We are also committed to economic recovery. I believe that our way forward on ending tobacco displays in shops strikes a fair balance between those two priorities. I thank your Lordships for participating in this important debate and I welcome the continuing support of the noble Baroness for tobacco control and I hope that, in the light of what I have said, in particular in the wider context of these regulations, she will feel able to withdraw her Motion.