Post Office: Horizon Accounting System

Lord Stevenson of Balmacara Excerpts

Tuesday 6th October 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The CPS is already examining the conduct of Fujitsu in this case, but the noble Lord will understand that it would not be appropriate for me to comment on those proceedings.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, in earlier responses to questions on this issue, the Minister has confirmed that, although the review is not a statutory inquiry under the Act, the reviewer—we now know his name—will get full access to the Post Office’s and Fujitsu’s papers and personnel. Can the Minister confirm that the reviewer will have similar rights of access to Ministers and civil servants involved in this case?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

Yes.

Trade Bill

Lord Stevenson of Balmacara Excerpts

Committee stage & Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Thursday 1st October 2020 Grand Committee

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, in responding to the last group of amendments, the Minster, the noble Lord, Lord Grimstone, expressed surprise at the broad nature of the debate. I would say to him, perhaps facetiously, “Welcome to the House of Lords”. I fear that this group may tempt his colleague, the noble Viscount, Lord Younger, to make a similar observation, but I ask that he does not. As the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, said at the end of the previous debate, the nature of these debates highlights serious concerns that noble Lords have, and the Government should take them seriously, even when they are not necessarily on the face of the Bill.

This is a very good example of that. I shall not speak in detail about Amendment 34, because the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, made a very powerful speech. I am also glad that Lady Sheikh managed to get the noble Lord, Lord Sheikh, online, because he made a very strident contribution on something that is extremely important.

Similarly, I am not going to talk much about intellectual property. On this issue I bend the knee to my noble friend Lord Clement-Jones—and, frankly, so should Her Majesty’s Government. I suggest that the Minister should give my noble friend’s words, and particularly his questions, special attention, because they are serious and important issues that face a lot of companies in this country.

The noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, spoke strongly on data flow. At the risk of provoking the ire of my noble friend Lord Clement-Jones, I have to say that I agree with her. Her issue is absolutely fundamental—and I shall expand a bit on that.

I have previously quoted the “exuberant” Secretary of State, as the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, describes her. Here is another quote, from a speech she made to the WTO almost exactly a year ago:

“We believe it is high time to reform digital trade rules so that they are fit for the 21st century, reducing restrictions to market access to support e-commerce and ensure the free flow of data across borders.”


Yet despite this enthusiasm or exuberance, I sense that there are problems when it comes to squaring the conflicting pressures that are mounting around the free flow of data across borders. Indeed, when the Minister kindly invited myself and others to a facilitated discussion on the progress of the US-UK trade deal, I was surprised and shocked by the insouciant response to my question on data adequacy and the issue of reconciling US and EU data rules. It was a very short answer, and to us, it did not show a full understanding of the challenge.

However, it is not just about GDPR. I will talk in a little detail about Schrems II, which my noble friend Lord Clement-Jones raised, because it is an important cloud hanging over what we seek to achieve. To remind your Lordships, in that ruling the European Court of Justice, the highest court of the EU, found on the adequacy of the protection provided by the EU-US data protection shield. To explain, it wrote in its press release that

“the requirements of US national security, public interest and law enforcement have primacy, thus condoning interference with the fundamental rights of persons whose data are transferred to that third country.”

It added that

“mechanisms in the EU-US Privacy Shield ostensibly intended to mitigate this interference are not up the required legal standard of ‘essential equivalence’ with EU law.”

Broadly, the US’s prioritization of digital surveillance in the view of the court collides directly with European fundamental rights.

That is a sobering ruling, which spells danger for UK trade aspirations and sets some alarm bells ringing regarding the UK’s surveillance regime. Her Majesty’s Government need to reflect on this very seriously when talking up the potential for a UK-US trade deal that includes data, and they should contrast that stark ruling with the freebooting statement from the Secretary of State with which I opened. By the way, I assume that Her Majesty’s Government are probably having to reflect on this ruling in their efforts to tie down data adequacy with the EU when the transition period runs out. Perhaps the Minister can use this opportunity to update us on progress with these discussions with the EU.

This is not a trivial issue, and we need to demonstrate in this country that we take it seriously. As a starting point, accepting Amendments 15, 16 and 34 would be a very good idea.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I will be relatively brief because much of what I want to say has been covered by the other speakers, not that I could ever have competed with the tour d’horizon that was the speech by the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, and the expertise also shown by the former Minister, the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe. It was also a bit of a tour de force, since it touched on every issue there is to touch on in terms of intellectual property. Indeed, if the noble Lords were minded to follow that up with amendments to back up some of the points they were making, the glacial progress we are making so far on the Bill would turn into a complete and utter standstill. So much is going on here, and so many things need to be addressed, that I am almost tempted to go into cahoots with them to try to see whether we can pick them out. Perhaps I will resist that one.

Both Amendments 15 and 16, taken together or separately, are helpful in the sense that, as others have said, they pick up some of the rather considerable concerns that we are all hearing from the IP sector about the future, about what is going to happen to personal data flows and, indeed, about what is going to happen to our IP industry, which is so vital to the UK economy and our cultural industries. They seem to be very sensible information-gathering amendments that do not impose any great burden on the Government, and they would help to inform the situation as we reach the turning points at the end of this year. I hope that they commend themselves at least in outline to the Minister.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I apologise if I did not make myself very clear when I was speaking earlier, but the Minister did not seem to answer my point. If we are talking about the standards set for any rollover agreements covered by this legislation and—as we hope to persuade the Government—the future free trade agreements that are still to be negotiated with other countries, what standards of child protection can the Government assert they will use if legislation that is going to contain that has not yet been put into primary legislation? For example, he mentioned the commitment in a White Paper, and presumably there will have been legislation, on an issue that deals with child harm. It deals specifically with the question of whether or not the future basis under which this would be done is a duty of care. These are quite important and quite difficult concepts. If they are not there they do not give us a standard. If they are delayed, or in some way changed as they go through the parliamentary process, they may not eventuate into a situation which can be used. My question remains: is this not an issue where it would be helpful to the Government to have something very clear on the face of the Bill that dealt with that particular issue of child harm, which as we have heard, is so important to the people of this country?

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Haskel) (Lab)]

I now call the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron.

Trade Bill

Lord Stevenson of Balmacara Excerpts

Committee stage & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 29th September 2020 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

7: Clause 2, page 2, line 9, after “considers” insert “necessary and”

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, in moving Amendment 7, I shall also speak to the others in this group, which it is difficult to argue about knowing what is to come further down the agenda and on the list of amendments. I mean this in the sense that it talks about and effectively looks to amend what I will call the status quo ante. I say this because we very much hope that the Government will accept later amendments about scrutiny and other issues; this would, of course, considerably change what would be said in Clause 2, which is about the implementation of international trade agreements.

In some senses, this debate will largely be conducted in a vacuum. I hope I will be able, as I go through, to argue the points that I want to make and that there are points here that we need to focus on quite hard. This is particularly because the opening subsection here—Clause 2(1)—is drafted very broadly, and I will make a particular point about it. I will read it out:

“An appropriate authority may by regulations make such provision as the authority considers appropriate for the purpose of implementing an international trade agreement to which the United Kingdom is a signatory.”


This seems such a wide power that is being given to Ministers, and it needs to be questioned in its own right. However, obviously, it plays back into what I have just been saying regarding future amendments that we will discuss in relation to the power of Parliament and where and how its various committees have a role in this process.

Amendment 7 is very narrowly drawn; it suggests that, before “appropriate” we put in “necessary and”, which would make it read “considers necessary and appropriate” in relation to the power being given to Ministers. There may well be an argument against what I am saying along the lines of, “This is splitting hairs and is a legal definition that we do not need to worry about; it is common in many parts of the statute book and we should not be concerned about it.”

However, I thought it would be worth raising this as an earlier point on the agenda because a similar amendment was moved in the Commons by the Member for Dundee East. Regarding the powers in Clause 2, he pointed out:

“The effect of the amendment would be to limit the scope of the powers”.—[Official Report, Commons, 18/6/20; col. 130.]


He described those powers as “vague and subjective”. I cannot possibly comment on that, but I look forward to hearing the Minister’s response to it. I want to quote, very briefly, what the Minister in the other place said when faced with this amendment:

“The power is needed to implement obligations arising from continuity trade agreements into domestic law over time and in all circumstances.”


He went on:

“Without such an ability to make changes, the UK would be at risk of being in breach of our international obligations.”


I pause, perhaps for hollow laughter. He then said:

“I can assure colleagues that the powers in the Bill will be used in a proportionate way ... The Government view ‘appropriate’ and ‘necessary’ as synonymous”.—[Official Report, Commons, 18/6/20; col. 131.]


That made me think a little, and I went to check the dictionary for my own satisfaction. It defines “appropriate” as:

“Suitable or proper in the circumstances”.


However, it defines “necessary” as “essential” and “needing to be done”. I really do not think that these are synonyms; I hope that when the Minister responds, he will be able to throw a little more light on to this.

However, I pause only to set the scene for discussions picked up in later amendments—on which I am very pleased to be joined by the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, and the noble Lord, Lord Purvis—and one in my name that I will speak to shortly. As I said, Amendment 9 deals with a situation that we hope will change, but it is basically about the use of the powers that are in the Bill and would be used should it be necessary to change or adjust the terms of a free trade agreement currently organised through the EU but that will become a matter for the UK once the interim period is finished.

We think that Clause 2(1) is important and the whole of the clause deals with the way these powers are implemented but also constrained. The point was made in the other place that, although the primary drafting of Clause 2(1)—which gives the power to

“make such provision as the authority considers appropriate”—

is very wide, there are constraints further on, particularly in relation to limits on such matters as not allowing the rule to be used to change tariffs, for instance. In fact, this is because there are powers in other parts of the statute book that would deal with that. Nevertheless, it is an example of the Government’s argument—which I am sure we will hear from the Minister when he responds—which is that, although this is a very broad-based power, it is necessary because of the uncertain way in which these things might change over time.

However, I wonder whether the Minister, when he comes to respond, might look in particular at some of the issues raised in the Explanatory Notes, paragraph 36 of which states:

“Not all obligations in EU-partner country trade agreements will have been fully implemented by the EU in EU law … by the end of the transition period.”


Therefore, the power in Clause 2 will be necessary to pick this up going forward. Could he give examples of areas where this applies? The Explanatory Notes talk about “procurement” and

“mutual recognition … in respect of enforcement or compensation provisions.”

They may well be the limits, but it would be helpful for the Committee to know a little more about that, and, when the Minister responds, I would be very grateful for this. If he wants to write to me, I will understand.

Paragraph 37 of the Explanatory Notes says:

“It is also possible that adjustments may be required to ensure that the new UK-partner country trade agreements work outside the original EU context.”


It states that this might require a “change to UK law”. We are now talking about changes to primary legislation so, again, it would be helpful if the Minister could give us some examples in relation this. The third point is that paragraph 38 says that it is important that we have continuity over time and that regulations must be “up to date”. Again, I think we accept that this is necessary, but it would be useful to have examples.

I do not want to detain the Committee too long on this, but I point out that the power in Clause 2 is very widely drawn. Constraints are implied in the way the Explanatory Notes are drafted but, as we know, these are not part of the statute book and are not able to be prayed in aid. We need statements from the Government to make sure that those arrangements are clear and available for us as we go forward. I think that deals with Amendment 7.

Amendment 10 would apply the provisions in the Bill to trade agreements other than the EU rollover trade agreements and allow the Bill to act as a framework for future trade policy. I suppose that, in tabling this amendment at this time, we are anticipating debates to come, as I have mentioned.

However, it is important that we get the context for this right. It is a complete mystery to me—despite the extensive discussions that we had the last time the Bill was in your Lordships’ House and despite our subsequent meetings with the current Minister and officials about this—why the Government cannot see their way towards an accommodation with those of us who believe very strongly that there is a role for Parliament to play that is not constrained by the negative resolution procedure under CRaG and that the Government would benefit from having more engagement with Parliament during the process of setting up trade deals and in relation to what they are doing, and would benefit in their negotiations with third parties on deals. This is because there would always be the constraint under which Governments would be able to say that they were not able to get such-and-such through Parliament and therefore they could not take it further. However, these issues will be rehearsed on future days, so I will not go into them in any detail, but I wanted to get a bit of the sense of that into the debate that we shall have on this group of amendments.

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[Lord Grimstone of Boscobel (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, for his comments. The continuity agreements were those that were in force before 1 January or had been agreed to by the EU, even if not fully ratified, before then. We were fully participating members of the European Union then. The committees of this House and the other place that scrutinise European legislation—the noble Lord knows much more about that than I do, being a new boy—scrutinised these agreements and did that satisfactorily.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I thank everybody who has spoken in this debate. It has been a bit of a rollercoaster ride. I have felt optimistic at some moments and deeply depressed at others. I am going to end up being optimistic because I am that sort of chap. I will take the good that I have heard from my noble friends Lord Blunkett and Lord Haskel, in particular. I was grateful on this occasion not to be attacked by the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes. It is always a good day when that happens—I am only joking.

The noble Lord, Lord Lansley, made some good points about keeping in mind the difference between ratification and implementation as we go forward. He is right to stress that point and I am sure we will come back to it. The noble Lord, Lord Purvis, raised a number of questions that had a bearing on that. I started to get slightly worried about where he was heading —for example, on the issue about the implementation of agreements made under the royal prerogative being ratified under the CRaG arrangements. This is an obvious consequence of where we stand with our current procedures. It leaves the question open as to why we need primary legislation. If the Minister is saying that all future deals are to be made in relation to existing standards that will never be lowered, in view of not changing or disadvantaging our labour and environmental standards and our future arrangements on climate change—on the agenda later today—what is this primary legislation of which he speaks? This is something we will need to come back to and I will be thinking about it.

Finally, I want to pick up the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering, which I thought was a good one. Can I join her in asking the Minister whether he could write to us about it? Paragraphs 44 and 45 of the Explanatory Notes refer to varieties of trade agreements and the Minister did not deal with that in his response to the noble Baroness. The types of agreement within the definition of “international trade agreements” include memorandums of understanding and he will know that this matter has been raised with him by the International Agreements Committee of your Lordships’ House. It is a topical point and I would be grateful if he could give us some further information when he is able to do so. With that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 7 withdrawn.

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[Baroness Kramer (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, and the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, and bow to their expertise. I am stepping in in the place of my noble friend Lord Bradshaw, who is, unfortunately, not able to speak today. I know that the three of them have had sufficient conversation to enable me to be sure that I can support everything that has been said up to this point.

Many of us are utterly frustrated that, in this era when we are so concerned with climate change, the advancement of rail is frequently constrained by the concerns of rail equipment companies about the security of their rolling stock. This protocol addresses that issue. It provides a public registry for rolling stock, which would hugely facilitate cross-border operations of freight and passenger trains, and the certainty that a registry offers. It would free up financing for rail stock, because it provides mechanisms for repossession of collateral in cases of insolvency.

Stimulating private investment in this arena is absolutely critical. This is not a burden that most countries around the world can carry at government level, so ensuring private participation is crucial. We move now into an era where our concern about climate change means that rail options, in contrast to aviation or road options, are increasingly attractive because of the environmental benefits, and very often it is far more cost-effective for exporters and importers.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, said, the UK has increasingly become a player once again in the manufacture of rail equipment and it needs international markets. It would of course be of benefit if those markets had much greater certainty and confidence in those who are selling.

I am somewhat concerned because, when I last looked—and perhaps the Minister might correct me—only Luxembourg had actually ratified this treaty, although many countries have signed it, as the UK did in 2016. We really want to make sure that there is no obstacle to UK ratification, which would undoubtedly give others the confidence to go ahead and ratify, lifting the whole platform of rail as part of the ongoing future, so that it has much more significant international consequences than even domestic consequences.

I hope very much that we can use this opportunity to bring the issue once again to the Government’s attention. I am very comforted: it sounds as though the Government have found a route for ratification to be achieved. I do not think any of us particularly care what the route is, provided that it is secure and effective. I look forward to hearing the Minister’s comments on this issue.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Berkeley for introducing this amendment. I am afraid that it is outside my normal expertise area, and I listened with interest to what he had to say. We should support his argument that if it is possible through this Bill to facilitate the rail sector and its development, we should do so. I am happy to back up the points made by other speakers.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

My Lords, we have a change of rider as I leap into the saddle. I turn to Amendments 8 and 19 in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Berkeley and Lord Bradshaw, and my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe. The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, eloquently explained to this Committee the nature of and reasoning behind these amendments. Taken together, they would expand the scope of the Trade Bill, incorporating the implementation of private international law conventions to which the EU was signatory before exit day.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, for his constructive engagement with my noble friend Lord Grimstone and our departmental team of officials over recent weeks. As the noble Lord has outlined, this amendment would allow the UK to implement the provisions of the Luxembourg Rail Protocol.

Let me say at the outset that the Government are supportive of ratifying the Luxembourg Rail Protocol. We recognise the competitive advantages which this could bring to the UK rail sector and UK financial services, as the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, outlined so convincingly in his speech today and at Second Reading. I also took note of the remarks of the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, who pointed out the economic advantages.

However, I do not believe the Trade Bill is an appropriate vehicle to provide the powers necessary for the implementation of this agreement. As has been explained to your Lordships, the powers conferred by the Bill are limited and narrow in scope, yet wholly essential for the delivery of the UK’s independent trade policy. It is our view that the contents of the Bill should not expand beyond essential readiness for life outside the European Union.

However, I can advise the noble Lord that the delegated power that was originally part of the Private International Law (Implementation of Agreements) Bill would have allowed the Government to implement domestically private international law agreements, including the private international law elements of a convention such as the one to which he refers.

The Government intend to reintroduce this in Committee in the other place, which, as the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, said, I understand is to be as early as next week—I think 6 October. I therefore urge the noble Lord to encourage your Lordships in this Committee and beyond to support the reintroduction of the delegated power when the Private International Law (Implementation of Agreements) Bill returns to this House for Lords consideration of Commons amendments in coming weeks.

The Department for International Trade has engaged on an official level with the Department for Transport, which supports the Luxembourg Rail Protocol. The Department for Transport believes that the protocol has potential economic benefits for the UK, just as the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, said.

I would be very pleased to facilitate a further conversation on this in conjunction with my noble friend Lord Grimstone in my capacity as a Whip with responsibility for transport and trade policy, and perhaps as an interdepartmental broker—I hope a very honest one. On that basis, I ask that these amendments are withdrawn.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

11: Clause 2, page 2, line 23, at end insert—
“(4A) Regulations under subsection (1) may make provision for the purpose of implementing an international trade agreement only if the provisions of that international trade agreement do not conflict with and are consistent with—(a) the provisions of international treaties ratified by the United Kingdom;(b) the provisions of the Sustainable Development Goals adopted by the United Nations General Assembly on 25 September 2015;(c) the primacy of human rights law;(d) international human rights law and international humanitarian law;(e) the United Kingdom’s obligations on workers’ rights and labour standards as established by but not limited to—(i) the commitments under the International Labour Organisation’s Declaration on Fundamental Rights at Work and its Follow-up Conventions; and(ii) the fundamental principles and rights at work inherent in membership of the International Labour Organisation;(f) women’s rights and the United Kingdom’s obligations established by but not limited to the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women;(g) children’s rights and the United Kingdom’s obligations established by but not limited to the Convention on the Rights of the Child; and(h) the sovereignty of Parliament, the legal authority of UK courts, the rule of law and the principle of equality before the law.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment would ensure that regulations made under the Bill can only be made if the trade agreement which the regulations would implement does not contravene the UK’s international commitments with specific reference to human rights and related treaties, and must respect the sovereignty of parliament.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering, for her support for this amendment.

This group deals with high-level considerations—whether we should have constraints and, if so, whether they should be introduced through primary legislation should the Government wish to depart from international agreements or standards which are subject to international treaties such as UN conventions.

We are of course party to a large number of international agreements. The amendment deals in particular with provisions of international treaties that have been ratified—for example, those on the sustainable development goals, international human rights law, international humanitarian laws, the obligations relating to workers’ rights and labour standards, which we have already discussed under the ILO’s Declaration on Fundamental Principles and Rights at Work, and various others relating to matters such as women’s rights and the rights of children, although of course they are not limited to just the conventions that we have, such as the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. So the list is very long and very important, and I am sure that no Government would wish to see us depart from any or all of them, should we be in a position to do so, simply for particular trade reasons.

Later groups will deal with our self-generated standards, and there are considerable overlaps. So in a sense this is perhaps a two-part debate, and this one will focus on the outward arrangements that we make with external agencies. But it should not constrain us, and I hope that the Minister will not keep his powder dry, as he said he would in an earlier debate on another issue.

Having said that, I suspect that the Minister’s line will be that the Government will always adhere to the rule of law and treaty obligations, but I think it is fair to point out that trust has already been broken through the Government’s own actions. Even so, it raises the question of why, if there is never to be an occasion on which we would wish to depart from our existing treaty obligations, we are talking about any constraints on the activities that the Government might wish to engage with in terms of their primary legislation agenda related to trade. However, that is for further discussion.

Also in this group is Amendment 18, led by my noble friend Lord Hendy, and that will lead to an interesting debate. In addition, the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Alton, and his powerful Cross-Bench supporters on Amendment 33 will be worth hearing and discussing. We also have an amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, about reporting arrangements in relation to trade agreements, which I think will also be of value. I beg to move.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Barker) (LD)]

I call the noble Baroness, Baroness McIntosh of Pickering. No? I think the noble Baroness is unable to join us at this point, so I call the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle.

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[Lord Grimstone of Boscobel (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness for those comments. I have carefully noted them.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I am conscious of time and I will try to be brief. We had an interesting discussion because this was a good group, even though it was quite widely drawn. We touched on the limits and what the Government should have to say about their policies going into negotiations. We talked about what aspirations they might have, how they go forward and the scrutiny arrangements that should follow. Out of that came a sense, that we all shared, that if you wanted evidence that trade matters to Parliament, this debate and particularly the section on the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Alton, proved that we were talking about substantial issues at the heart of what we think about a democracy and that are important for how we relate to society more widely.

Having said that, we should not forget the earlier discussions, particularly those led by my noble friends Lord Hendy and Lord Hain. I thought that the speeches from the noble Baroness, Lady Stroud, and my noble friend Lord Judd, were also important and I also appreciated the comments made by my noble friend Lord Hunt. We covered a lot of ground, have a lot to think about and will read Hansard carefully. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 11 withdrawn.

Trade: Trans-Pacific Partnership

Lord Stevenson of Balmacara Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd September 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Grimstone of Boscobel (Con)]

My Lords, in the recent agreement in principle with Japan that we were so pleased to reach, there is an extensive data and digital services chapter that we hope will be a model for our future free trade agreements. The points made by the noble Baroness are important and are always in our mind when we negotiate these agreements.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, can the Minister confirm that the CPTPP contains ISDS clauses? Given that the Secretary of State described this as an

“advanced agreement full of countries committed to the rules of international trade”,

why do the Government believe it necessary to provide secretive ISDS structures when we and the current members are in good standing and have perfectly adequate legal systems?

[Lord Grimstone of Boscobel (Con)]

My Lords, the UK will ensure that any future accession talks with the CPTPP are consistent with our interests and our stated policies and priorities. We are clear that our future investment policy will continue to protect our right to regulate in the public interest and we will ensure that UK investors abroad receive the same high standard of treatment that foreign investors receive in the United Kingdom.

Retail Businesses: Financial Support

Lord Stevenson of Balmacara Excerpts

Monday 21st September 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The noble Lord will be aware that, by 16 August, the Future Fund to help businesses had supported 590 investments with a total of £588 million.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, a number of measures aimed at preventing company insolvencies, included in the recent Corporate Insolvency and Governance Act, expire at the end of this month. What plans do the Government have to extend those provisions? Can the Minister set out the new timetable?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The noble Lord makes a good point. We are urgently considering the need to extend these measures and will announce a decision shortly.

Japan Free Trade Agreement

Lord Stevenson of Balmacara Excerpts

Thursday 17th September 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I congratulate the department and its officials on reaching this agreement in principle with Japan. It is a much-needed relief for all those UK companies that would have seen their trade with Japan reverted to WTO terms if the agreement had not been reached by the end of the transition period.

It is also a welcome benefit at a time of great economic uncertainty for the UK’s digital and tech sectors and for other key exporters which, we assume, will benefit from greater access, faster tariff reductions and stronger GI protections under this agreement than they enjoyed under the previous EU-Japan agreement. However, I hope the Minister will accept that in the absence of sight of the actual treaty text, and a full updated impact assessment, there is much about the UK-Japan agreement that we still do not know until these documents are published.

I welcome what is said in the Statement about the extensive scrutiny of the deal itself that will be offered to the International Trade Committee. I also note that there is a reference to an independently scrutinised impact assessment that the department will produce, so that

“parliamentarians are able to interrogate the deal and prepare a report that is debated in Parliament.”

I ask the Minister to confirm that this offer is also available to the International Agreements Committee of your Lordships’ House, and to confirm also that the timing of these releases of documentation will be such that the necessary scrutiny can be done well before the ratification processes of the CRaG Act are triggered—as of course will be the case in Japan, whose Parliament has to ratify the deal before it can be signed.

I have four other questions. The Statement says there will be a tariff reduction on British exports of food and agriculture, which is welcome. However, presumably this is contingent on sorting out the shared quotas we currently have under the existing EU FTA. For example, does this mean that exports will continue to be restricted unless and until other EU countries fail to use them?

The Statement talks up a new area of co-operation with Japan in the automotive and electronic sectors and suggests there will be considerable growth in new areas such as aeronautics. But, as we discussed in an Oral Question earlier this week, is this not likely to be heavily contingent on final decisions on accumulation and rules of origin after the transition period ends? Can the Minister update us on progress in this area?

I ask the Minister what ISDS clauses are contained in the final agreement. If there are any, how can the Minister justify such secretive and unwelcome provisions when there are ample opportunities for agreed parties to use the normal legal processes operating in both our countries?

Finally, can we get behind the headline comparisons that were fed to the press about the benefits this agreement will produce for the UK? Would the Minister agree with me that the correct comparison is what would have happened if we had simply rolled over the existing EU-Japan deal? To put it another way, can the Minister say what we will be able to do after this FTA is ratified that we cannot do now under the existing EU-Japan FTA—and can he quantify that?

As welcome and necessary as this deal with Japan is, it is still nothing like as important, in terms of our global trade, as reaching a deal to maintain free trade with the European Union. Our trade with Japan is worth 2.2% of our current global trade, which does not come anywhere near the 47% that we have with Europe. That is why commentary on this deal from Japan suggests that the deal that will determine the future of the investment and jobs that Japanese companies bring to UK communities is not the FTA we have just signed, but the one we hope to sign shortly with Europe.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, because these Benches want the UK to prosper, we welcome the agreement. However, rather like industry groups, we do so not by hailing it but by sighing a collective sigh of relief that we have secured simple continuity of the benefits we secured as part of the EU. It has come to this—simply securing the trading terms that we had as a member of the EU now that we are out of it was described as “heroic” by a Conservative MP in the Commons on Monday.

It is customary to thank the Government for advance notice of a Statement’s accompanying published documents. However, as referred to, in this case it would have been good to have notice of the text of the agreement—which has yet to be signed—so that we could offer proper scrutiny. In Japan, both Houses of the Diet will need to approve the Cabinet’s decision to endorse the treaty. That is not afforded to our Parliament; we will not have an opportunity to do so. British parliamentarians did with the EU agreement. However, as I said last week on the Trade Bill, the Government seek continuity on most things but not on parliamentary accountability. Can the Government Whips indicate that we will have a substantive debate on this agreement in this House before the Government indicate that they seek ratification?

The Minister gave specific details of the agreement when answering questions on Monday, but we have had no sight of the agreement in order to consider the context and scale of what the Minister said. Like the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, I welcome what Liz Truss said on Monday in the House of Commons, with regard to a copy being given to the International Trade Committee. I also would like to know whether that will be afforded to our committee, the International Agreements Committee, and when this will be done. Will the text also be made available, as is common in other Parliaments, to Front-Bench spokespeople on a private briefing basis at the same time as it is sent to the committees? What will be the timeframe between it being sent to the committees and a debate in this House?

We have to reserve judgment on the wider benefits the Government claim for the agreement until we have seen them. Over recent months, we have seen the enormous capacity of the Government to oversell and then underdeliver. For example, there was massive fanfare over securing tariff-rate quotas for British agricultural products in this agreement, but then reports suggest that we have actually secured access to any non-utilised quota for EU goods.

With even greater heralding activity, the press release announced:

“New protection for more iconic UK goods … from just seven … to potentially over 70 under our new agreement”.


Understandably, MPs in the Commons lined up to welcome this, but can the Minister confirm that the agreement has no new protections creating GIs, as Japan is under no obligation to expand further its recognition in the future to beyond what we have in the EU deal? Rather, it will simply be able to consider further requests from the EU to a limit of 70.

If it transpires that this spin—which has also described the agreement as “gold standard”—is actually just a commitment to talk about further potential agreements, such as geographical indicators, the Government are building up a huge amount of expectation for very limited benefit. Given the fact that Japanese company Hitachi’s agreement for nuclear power on Anglesey is likely to have a bigger negative economic impact on the United Kingdom than any benefits of this trade agreement, context is all.

On state aid, the Minister referred to a Question I asked on Monday, and he said clearly that this a perpetuation of EU rules which we will be bound by. Can the Minister be clear and tell the House whether it will require domestic state aid legislation to implement this and, if so, will it be a continuation of the EU regime? When will that be brought forward? On tariffs, what will the overall average Japanese import tariff on UK goods be under this agreement, compared to what we have at the moment?

Finally, the Government said that the benefits are likely to yield £15 billion to the UK economy, but they have not given a timeframe. I looked at the Government’s scoping paper, and it said that that source simply stated over “the long term”. The source for that, in the footnote, was internal DIT analysis from 2018. Will the Government publish that? What is the timeframe for that £15 billion—with no caveat—the Government have announced, overselling and underdelivering again? What is the figure? The Government did not quote from that scoping exercise that that figure does not take into consideration the economic impacts of Covid-19, so what is the real likely benefit?

If we are to see the benefits from this agreement, which we wish to, the Government have to be open and transparent. So far, that transparency is lacking. I hope that the Government will be far more open in the coming weeks.

REACH and CE

Lord Stevenson of Balmacara Excerpts

Thursday 17th September 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

We have put in place a new UK REACH IT system, closely modelled on the European system to make the process as simple and as easily replicable as possible. The HSE has been provided with the appropriate resources to police the new system.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, can the Minister confirm that, when the transition period ends, health and environmental protection in Northern Ireland in respect of chemical and pesticide imports will be considerably better than in the rest of the United Kingdom because Northern Ireland will still be covered by the existing EU REACH rules and regulations under the withdrawal agreement?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

No. We intend the system in the UK to be as safe and as effective as the EU REACH system.

European Structural and Investment Funds Common Provisions and Common Provision Rules etc. (Amendment) (EU Exit) (Revocation) Regulations 2020

Lord Stevenson of Balmacara Excerpts

Wednesday 16th September 2020 Grand Committee

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, as other noble Lords have said, I am grateful to the Minister for his clear and focused introduction, which allowed us to understand better the importance of the SI with regard to clearing up the statute book, but also to point out some of the transitional difficulties that the Government will face as they see the end of these substantial schemes, which, as other noble Lords have said, have had such a huge impact across the country. They are a significant investment, many communities are involved, they connect all parts of the United Kingdom, and it is vital that we get this right. That would be true even if it were not also the case, as the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, pointed out, that the impact of Covid-19 stresses every aspect of that and will bring it very much to the forefront of our thinking.

The noble Lord, Lord Naseby, went through the Explanatory Memorandum and asked a number of detailed questions. I just wanted to ask one or two questions related to consultation. The extent and territorial application of this is clearly a United Kingdom issue, and the Minister has made it clear that these funds are and always have been reserved items. However, there is a tension regarding the local impact; other speakers made points on how the further you go from the centre of Whitehall with this, the easier it is to see the discrepancies and differences that need to be addressed, with funding of this nature coming, as it does, with a focus on trying to level up rather than reinforce existing divisions.

I was therefore intrigued to see in paragraph 4.3 of the Explanatory Memorandum:

“Devolved Administrations were involved in the preparation of this instrument.”


Can the Minister indulge us by explaining what that meant? Were they shouted at, engaged, and were there meetings or a discussion? I would really like to know. Contrast that with paragraph 10.1 in particular, which says that there was “no formal consultation”—presumably this was done with ties off, in an informal situation—but:

“Devolved Administrations have all provided consent letters from their ministers to the laying of this SI.”


That is a novel way of doing it. I am intrigued by this; it is a new process, which I have never seen before. Perhaps the Minister would be prepared to share those letters with the Committee. If he is not able to, perhaps he could explain in another letter what was going on here. I am not interested in prying into confidential details but I would like to know how the process works in practice.

All speakers mentioned it, but my noble friend Lord Foulkes and the noble Baronesses, Lady Ritchie and Lady Bowles, went into some detail about how we are going to be fed information about the shared prosperity funds that replace all the existing funding. As I said, £9.5 billion is a lot for even this Treasury to find on the money tree. The case has been well made for early notification about the thinking behind this and the consultation process going into it. Tying it to some feature of the calendar that allows a Minister to say something more concrete than just “It’s coming soon” would be good.

It is important to get assurances from Ministers that there is going to be a fund of this nature, size and reach, to understand better how constraints will apply to how much it is expected to do and how that will be done, whether there will be partnership arrangements—as was expressed by the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie—and whether there will be a bidding process or top-down delivery. We do not need firm details, but it would be interesting to know which way the Government are thinking.

I follow that with the astute observation of the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, that we might need to think harder about what might happen to us if the situation affecting the withdrawal agreement continues and the EU takes sanctions against the UK for its approach so far. If the first port of call is the retention of previously allocated structural funds, perhaps not this SI but the previous one will need to be repealed and we will have to go back to the first version. SI 625 may indeed have a longer life than we originally thought. I do not expect the Minister to go all the way down the track on this, but it would be helpful or reassuring to us if we knew that he had thought this through and that there are plans in place.

As I said at the beginning, we are talking about substantial sums of money, hard-wired into the way our country operates. It may not be the best or a long-term solution, but I appeal to the Government to think carefully about changes, as they come forward. It is important that we learn the lessons from the ESIF and its various formulations over the years. Bringing it all into one fund might be attractive, but the appetite to stop term funding is not there, and they will need to think carefully about how to share this money in a way that is effective and efficient, in terms of its overall goals, and that does not cut out partnership and local intelligence in how it is best applied.

Alternative Dispute Resolution for Consumer Disputes (Extension of Time Limits for Legal Proceedings) (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020

Lord Stevenson of Balmacara Excerpts

Wednesday 16th September 2020 Grand Committee

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his clear introduction of the SI. All noble Lords have taken his point that the intention is not to change the existing arrangements as they affect UK residents in relation to ADR, but to provide an additional safeguard for the extension of time because of the transition period. However, I am no different from the other speakers in that it raises a wider question about how ADR is conceived and operates in the UK, and what the future might bring.

My first point is directly related to that, because the Minister made a strong plea for ADR as a strong alternative to court proceedings and, therefore, a valuable asset for consumers and consumer rights. That depends on whether the ADR systems in place are active, efficient and serve customers well. Noble Lords will recall that, when the original directive was going through, this side of the House spent a considerable amount of time and effort trying to persuade the Government—unsuccessfully, in the end—that, when the directive is transposed, we ought to take a hard line against industries that are either slow to take up an ADR system or produce one with weak and ineffective operations. It may be wrong to require ombudsman services to be set up, but they seem to be a gold standard in many areas. Where they work well—financial services is a good example—they provide a mechanism that has the confidence of consumers and is effective in getting results for them, so they do not have to go into the aggressive atmosphere of courts.

When he responds, could the Minister give us a tour d’horizon of consumer areas, at the moment? The noble Lord, Lord Mann, mentioned some topical areas where he felt there were some doubts, and many noble Lords will be aware of the situation affecting the vouchers that have been offered by airlines and other transport operators when tickets have been cancelled. My personal experience is that this is patchy at best: some are very good and able to respond within a few days; some have been a nightmare. I am still not certain whether I have a voucher waiting to be delivered to me, even though the company—I shall not name it—keeps putting on its website that significant progress has been made in getting through the backlog and that it is all going well. It is funny that no voucher ever seems to arrive.

My second point is a narrow one about what is happening with legislation. As I understand it, this SI amends primary as well as secondary legislation, in pursuit of what is a not objectionable objective. I noticed, in the instance I was pursuing, two primary legislative issues—one in Scotland and another in Northern Ireland. However, when I looked at the consultation process, I could not see anything reflective of the sort of discussion and debate that one might have expected from legislation that affects devolved Administrations, in particular Scotland and Northern Ireland. The reference in paragraph 10 of the Explanatory Memorandum simply says that the department wrote to the Department for the Economy in Northern Ireland to seek agreement with the Northern Ireland Executive to make the instrument, and the department confirmed its agreement on 10 February.

Why is nothing mentioned about Section 14 of the Prescription and Limitation (Scotland) Act 1973, or am I missing something? There would have been a case for the Minister to be in correspondence with his counterparts in Scotland on this issue, even if it was only a courtesy. Presumably it is legislation that took place before devolution, but I think it is important to keep the niceties going on these issues.

My third point picks up that made by the noble Lord, Lord Singh, about how this works in practice. Consumers are relying on ADR but, in many cases, can do this only if the issue at hand has been subject to work, particularly by trading standards. We all know trading standards is under considerable pressure and has had additional responsibilities placed on it recently, but little additional resources flow its way. Could the Minister reassure us that trading standards is resourced effectively to do this work and will be able to pick up any additional work that results from this directive? I suspect that it will not be significant.

The point of the noble Lord, Lord Kirkhope, about consumers’ ability to get redress in the EU is important. I appreciate it is not relevant to the strict wording of this SI, but it will be an issue that people pick up. I cannot be the only person who gets nervous—this point was also made by the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles —when I buy something from a well-known deliverer of books, the name of which starts with “A”. I often find that the purchase I have made for my Kindle is delivered from Luxembourg.

I had not thought about the connection but the noble Lord, Lord Kirkhope, and the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, made it very clear that that will be a problem if I want to exercise my rights in future about anything that might go wrong. Fortuitously, as far as I am aware, nothing has gone wrong so far, but in an imperfect world we cannot always be certain that that will be the case. Could the Minister give us some words about how he thinks this will develop? Clearly, if the noble Lord, Lord Kirkhope, is right, we are seeing a considerable diminution in the ability of UK consumers to exercise their rights when they choose to buy from our closest trading partner—the EU. Is that where this is going? Is there anything the Minister can say that would help us?

Intellectual Property (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020

Lord Stevenson of Balmacara Excerpts

Monday 14th September 2020 Grand Committee

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, it has been a good, if brief, debate and has raised lots of important issues that I am sure we will be addressing over the months to come as matters progress. Like the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, I am grateful to the other speakers for raising issues that, perhaps, we do not need to go back into, given that we are looking forward to the Minister’s responses to the broader points made by the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley. How welcome it is to have a creative presence in our discussions—not that we are not creative, but I mean creative with a capital C. I am also grateful for the comments on the detailed Explanatory Memorandum notes because we do not need to go through them in detail. I think the answers will be relevant to the questions I would have asked as well.

Like the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, I recall the earlier debates surrounding the initial SIs on these matters. I do not want to go into too much detail on this point but I am still left with the view, which I think he referred to, that we seem to be offering quite a lot to European colleagues and former partners, both as regards the rights that they would enjoy up to and including the transition period and potentially beyond, but also in subsequent legal actions and representation issues. The asymmetry was not accidental but deliberate, and my challenge then, which I do not think I got a full response to, was that this whole approach being taken by the department seemed in some senses based on a misunderstanding. That is, if an attractive offer was made to the EU member states on all the intellectual property issues that we have been discussing this evening, we would land a better agreement after the transition period; in other words, the withdrawal agreement would be transmitted into a chapter within the free trade agreement which would be broadly as generous to us as it was to our European colleagues. That does not look quite so easy now. Certainly—plenty of discussions are going on in another place this evening—we may well not be in the same position later this week as we are today. That said, I still wonder whether the Minister could take on this issue and explain why he thinks that this set of arrangements, which in a sense are not touched by this SI because they merely reinforce what was done earlier in the year, are not really out of scope with where I think he wants to be, which is making sure that the British intellectual property industry is standing on its own two feet, able to defend its rights and its practices anywhere in the world, and to obtain the benefits from that.

I have now ranted a little about the broad arrangements, but as regards the particularities of this that we would like answers to, the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, are important. Is there an issue here about how representation in Europe will be managed in the future that will affect adversely our creatives? If there is any concern about that, the Minister should make that clear, and if not, he should be equally clear about that.

The noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, made a point about consultation and the lack of an impact assessment. Again, we see very limited consultation and no detailed work on the financial implications of the decisions. It may not matter on the narrow issue relating to this SI, but I hope that this is not a precedent for future work. These industries are important to us, they are extremely valuable to our economy, and they deserve to be consulted. If I may make a general point, one of the problems with the Intellectual Property Office is that it has come from a place where it was a passive recipient and documenter of activity in intellectual property, and it has yet to establish itself as the foremost champion of those who work in the creative industries, which is what they need. I would be grateful if the Minister could comment on that.

I would also like more detail on the broader issues touched on by the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, at the end of his peroration. We have been through this in Oral Questions, but I do not think I have had a full and consistent response from the Minister. The copyright directive, which will come into force shortly in Europe and should fit within the withdrawal agreement area, is important for all the reasons that the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, gave us. Consumers would actively benefit from portability, but that has gone. The question about whether the lack of activity in the copyright directive regarding what have previously been protected bodies, such as the major social media companies, which are able to argue that they are not publishers of other work, would have been attacked by the recommendations in the copyright directive on matters such as child protection. Are we not concerned about that, and if we are, how will that be resolved? We never seem to see legislation coming on online harms. Unless that deals with that effectively, we will be missing a huge trick.

The noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, also mentioned important issues to do with orphan works. I, too, think it would be a pity if we cannot get some of the value out of that that was in the copyright directive. It may be politically astute for the Government to say that it is nothing to do with this, but I hope the Minister will reassure us that the important issues raised by the copyright directive will not be ignored simply because of political expediency.