Passenger Railway Services (Public Ownership) Bill

Debate between Lord Snape and Lord Gascoigne

Consideration of Commons amendments
Wednesday 20th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gascoigne (Con)]

My Lords—

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

If the noble Lord, Lord Gascoigne, who I have clashed with a couple of times in this Chamber, wishes to intervene, he should indicate and of course I will give way to him. It seems he does not wish to indicate. In that case, I would be obliged if he sat down and listened just for once.

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[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate. I will address just a few points.

I very much agree with the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, and his description of the previous Government as being dilatory. It is six and half years since the timetable went wrong in the north-west of England and on Thameslink, in May 2018, and nothing really has been done. The railway is suffering and its passengers are suffering, and something needs to be done about it. I have referred to this before but, at some speed, we will be consulting shortly about the content of the wider Bill to reform the railway. I think that differentiates this Government and the speed at which they choose to operate.

On Motion A, I want there to be no doubt that this Government will undertake reform with a clear purpose and direction. As published in Getting Britain Moving, our objectives are set and are more ambitious and wide-ranging than the proposed purpose clause. We want to see reliability, affordability, efficiency, quality, accessibility and safe travel as the DNA of our railways—the foundational values that drive reform and deliver on what passengers expect. Public ownership will be the first step in ensuring better services, by placing the passenger front and centre as we rebuild public confidence, trust and pride in our railway.

I listened carefully to the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, on the commitment that passengers should be at the core of the future of the railway. In that respect, the wider railways Bill is a different matter. It will establish Great British Railways as a new body at arm’s length from government, which will not be directly accountable to the electorate in the same way as the Government are. In that context, it is essential that the railways Bill should clearly set out two things.

The first of those is the functions of Great British Railways—what it is actually going to do. The second is what Great British Railways is supposed to achieve by exercising those functions—in other words, its purpose. I can absolutely confirm to your Lordships’ House today that the forthcoming railways Bill will set out both of those things, and that delivering improvements for passengers and maintaining high standards of performance will be a crucial part of its purpose. I will be more than happy to engage with the noble Baroness on how we express that in the Bill.

I urge your Lordships’ House to support the Government’s Motion A and to reject the amendment in Motion A1, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Gascoigne, for two reasons. First, it is unnecessary, because the Government have already set out our objectives for the railway, we are already acting to achieve those objectives, and we are ready to be held to account on whether we deliver against them as we transfer the services to public ownership under this Bill. Secondly, as I have just assured the House, we will ensure that the railways Bill sets out a clear purpose for Great British Railways.

With regard to Motion B, the Government simply cannot accept an amendment that would delay reform, therefore going against the wishes of the electorate, and which would place additional cost on the taxpayer. We will use every tool at our disposal to resolve poor performance, including contractual termination rights, where they are triggered.

On the Bill itself, public ownership is not only the will of the voters but the right step towards bringing an end to years of fragmentation. Tens of millions of pounds in fees will be saved each year due to public ownership and, with the new direction and focus that this Government are now providing, current in-house operations are already seeing a reduction in cancellations. The evidence that public ownership is the way forward is clear.

On top of this, poorly performing train operators are being held to account, as I described earlier, and with Great British Railways coming further down the line, this Government have shown that we are serious about reform. None the less, improvements are needed now, and the Bill starts that process.

[Lord Gascoigne (Con)]

My Lords, I thank everyone who spoke in this brief debate, particularly the two Opposition Front-Benchers. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, for Lib Dem support up to now; I hope that will continue. I am especially grateful to my very good friend, the noble Lord, Lord Snape. It is always a pleasure to hear from him. Before I came into this House, I was told repeatedly that everyone is very friendly, very compassionate, very polite and respectful. Yet, there we are.

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

My Lords—

[Lord Gascoigne (Con)]

No, I am okay, thank you.

This debate is about the Bill; it is not about an individual on the Front Bench, in the form of the Minister, whom I still consider to be a very good friend and who, I can confess, drove his own bus at my wedding—our history goes back a long way and I hope our friendship will continue after today. This is not about an individual and it is not even about trust. I do not think we should be trusting people to do something when we now have an opportunity to put it in the Bill. The Minister just repeated the line, “We are already doing this”, so I ask the question: why not put it in?

On the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, I cede the ground to my noble friend on the Front Bench. This is not about my party in government either. Trust me, I could wax lyrical—I say this to my boss on the Front Bench, the Opposition Chief Whip—about all the things I wish that my party had done in government, but it is not about that either. It is not about what we did; it is about what this Bill is going to do. It is Labour’s own language, and in the absence of anything more, I do not believe, despite what the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, thinks, that we should be in a situation just of trust: there needs to be accountability. For that, I would like to test the opinion of the House.

Passenger Railway Services (Public Ownership) Bill

Debate between Lord Snape and Lord Gascoigne

Committee stage
Wednesday 23rd October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gascoigne (Con)]

My Lords, I support my noble friend Lord Moylan on Amendments 12 and 13 and I echo some of the great speeches in this group. As my noble friend said, it is right to ensure that, through some mechanism, the nations and regions are consulted, and, crucially, engaged, to ensure that they are brought into the decision-making process so that the service which eventually emerges is as effective as possible.

I am sure some will hark, yet again, that we are calling for more consultation and bureaucracy, but let us be clear: we on this side have always believed in devolution and power to the people. As my noble friend Lord Moylan said, the Government themselves have committed to the concept of devolution when it comes to transport. Therefore, is it not right that we utilise the opportunity to bring the Council of the Nations and Regions into discussions to ensure that we have the best services possible where there is overlap between the nations? Everyone is citing different quotes, but the PM said when the council was created that “we work as one team” and a “partnership”. If it is the view that that is too onerous, as I am sure the Minister will say, then we could at least try to engage the much- trailed but lesser-spotted envoy to the regions.

I support the noble Lord, Lord Snape, as I always do, in his Amendment 43. It calls for the Secretary of State to produce a report on whether a service could be devolved when it awards it to a public operator or renews a private franchise. That is wise and right, and I assume the case for doing so would be to assess the pros and cons for commuters, which we on this side of the Committee believe should be the focus of the reforms.

Supporting this amendment takes me back to what was said on day one of Committee on my amendments, when it was deemed that:

“Amendment A1, to which the noble Lord, Lord Gascoigne, spoke earlier, would create another bureaucracy”.


Later, this noble Lord hoped that the Minister would

“not get too bogged down in the bureaucratic desires of the party opposite”.—[Official Report, 21/10/24; cols. 433, 435.]

Who was so opposed to putting in a mere purpose clause, lest it be too bureaucratic? Lo and behold it was the one and only noble Lord, Lord Snape, who is now calling for an amendment to include a report when a rail service is awarded to a new operator. I welcome this Damascene conversion from the Labour Benches; I say yes to the noble Lord’s amendment but yes to Amendments A1 and 48A.

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

Before the noble Lord ruins entirely my career, such as it is, with his praise, I must tell him that he is comparing lemons with oranges. More accurately, what I said last time had nothing to with the devolution of railway passenger services to our great conurbations. I am rather against bureaucracy; it is the party opposite, as far as this legislation is concerned, that seems to be obsessed with it.

[Lord Gascoigne (Con)]

I do not know what the protocol is but I find it novel, if I may say so, that the noble Lord opposes bureaucracy when this side proposes it and yet supports it when it is convenient to himself.

West Midlands Combined Authority (Transfer of Police and Crime Commissioner Functions) Order 2024

Debate between Lord Snape and Lord Gascoigne

Wednesday 13th March 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

My Lords, as a resident of Birmingham, a few weeks ago a publication called the Birmingham Champion came through my front door. My noble friend Lord Bach referred to the Mayor of the West Midlands as a Conservative. He and I know that he is a Conservative because we take an interest in these matters. The Birmingham Champion is all about the mayor. The one word that is missing from it is “Conservative”, except for one mention—I must be frank about this. With my best spectacles on and under a bright light, I find that the printer’s imprint says, “On behalf of the West Midlands Conservative Association”, but there is no other mention of the Conservative Party. There are no less than seven pictures of the mayor and six stories where he claims the credit for saving the European championship, a training revolution with 100,000 new jobs, bus passenger numbers rising and routes protected. I used to be chairman of the bus company. I had not realised that the mayor had so much power.

[Lord Gascoigne (Con)]

I hate to have to do this, but I ask the noble Lord to pay attention to what is in the Companion about the use of props when giving speeches. It is not advised. With respect, can he please give his speech—

[Lord Gascoigne (Con)]

Order. I am quoting what is in the Companion.

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

I need no lectures from the party opposite about propriety. I have been in this Chamber for a lot longer than the noble Lord. Can he sit down and hear me?

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[Lord Gascoigne (Con)]

With respect, order. I am not giving a lecture from the Conservative Party Benches but about what is in this book—which is not written by the Conservative Party. Please, bear with me. In chapter 4 of the Companion, which is not written by any political party, paragraph 4.19 says:

“Members should not bring into the Chamber … books and newspapers”.


I do not mind the noble Lord making his points but, with respect, please do not do this.

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

The noble Lord has wasted quite a few minutes telling me that. It is not a newspaper; it is a publication on behalf of the Conservative Party, but I will cite it from memory: seven different pictures of the mayor and six stories for which he claims credit —over which the mayor has little power, but that has not stopped him. Now he wants to take on the police and crime commissioner’s role. I ask noble Lords how he can fit that role in given all his other duties.

I remind the party opposite, particularly the Minister, that the Labour police and crime commissioner was elected in a democratic election in 2021. The proposals from the Government to merge the two jobs are typical of their attitude towards democracy. When it comes to national elections, the Government insist, with no evidence to back it up, that identification must be provided. When it comes to elections in this city, they change the system. They cannot win in a PR system, so they insist on first past the post. This, in the West Midlands, is just another example of their cavalier behaviour regarding democracy.

I repeat that I do not believe that the mayor and the crime commissioner are roles that should be combined. The mayor insists that the West Midlands Police being in special measures is somehow the fault of the police and crime commissioner. Both sides of this House know full well that the police and crime commissioner has no operational control over the police force. That the police force is in special measures is in no way related to the capabilities of the police and crime commissioner anyway.

What worries me about this power grab on behalf of the Conservative Party is where we will go as far as the West Midlands is concerned if the jobs are combined and the police and crime commissioner finds that he does not have the time or space to do the mayoral role as well. Obviously, given that the Government have already overthrown—or intend to overthrow—the result of an election, the answer is not very far.

I have a vision of the future so far as the West Midlands is concerned. I do not know whether the West Midlands Police band is still in existence, but given the propensity for publicity of the outgoing mayor, I can imagine that band, if it exists, marching down Broad Street in Birmingham, led by the mayor and police and crime commissioner in his best uniform banging a big drum to a patriotic tune—“Lillibullero” perhaps—and blowing his own trumpet in the way that only he can.

This is a power grab; it ought to be resisted, and I will be supporting my noble friend’s amendment. I am grateful for the reference to the Companion from the noble Lord opposite. When he has been here a few more years, he might know better.