Northern Ireland: Bill of Rights

Lord Smith of Clifton Excerpts

Wednesday 15th June 2011 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Smith of Clifton]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government, following the recent elections to the Northern Ireland Assembly, what discussions they will hold with the political parties regarding the promotion of a Northern Ireland Bill of Rights in accordance with the 1998 Belfast agreement.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, as my right honourable friend the Minister of State for Northern Ireland recently made clear in the other place, we want to see this issue resolved and will be taking the views of the new Executive, political parties and others in Northern Ireland on how best to move matters forward.

[Lord Smith of Clifton]

My Lords, that is a smidgen of an improvement on the Answer given the last time I raised this question, and I suppose that that is progress. Can my noble friend tell me frankly whether the Government are going to continue the previous Government’s policy of kicking this issue into touch, or when we might have some positive progress on implementing this last aspect of the Belfast agreement?

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, I cannot give any specific dates or times. Civil servants have already talked to people in the human rights fraternity in Northern Ireland, and the next job is to get involved with the Assembly and to get things moving. I said on the previous occasion, and I repeat now, that with the new Assembly there is an opportunity to break into this issue, which I understand is of long standing. It is important that we move forward.

Northern Ireland: Bill of Rights

Lord Smith of Clifton Excerpts

Tuesday 15th March 2011 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Smith of Clifton]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what consideration they are giving to the motion passed by the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly on 22 November 2010 which noted the delay in the introduction of a Bill of Rights for Northern Ireland, as promised in the Belfast agreement, and called upon Her Majesty’s Government to fulfil their obligation in that regard.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, the Government remain committed to maintaining human rights protection in Northern Ireland and fulfilling our obligations under the Belfast agreement. Indeed, my right honourable friend the Minister of State recently met human rights organisations in Northern Ireland and stressed the difficulty of making progress without political consensus within Northern Ireland and the Northern Ireland Assembly. We will continue to consider how best to address this issue in the coming months.

[Lord Smith of Clifton]

My Lords, that is not a very satisfactory Answer because it gives a veto to the Stormont parties and it is not their prerogative to exercise that veto. Is what my noble friend said the agreed policy of the coalition? If it is, which Liberal Democrat Ministers participated and concurred in that agreement?

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, that is an interesting one. I am not the Minister; I am the Whip.

Water Supply: Northern Ireland

Lord Smith of Clifton Excerpts

Wednesday 9th February 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

I would not detract from the Scottish generosity to Northern Ireland. I am aware that the Minister in Northern Ireland was involved in discussions with my honourable friend. It is not clear to me whether he believed that there was a request that he ought to make. Assistance was offered to him in regard to the call centres. I would like people to understand that more than 400,000 people on one day tried to telephone Northern Ireland Water and only 4,000 of those calls were answered. Therefore, bringing in the call centres, which were available through Water UK, a UK and Northern Ireland-wide body, was a tremendous help to people who were seeking it.

[Lord Smith of Clifton]

Does my noble friend agree that successive Administrations, from the first Stormont through to the second Stormont, to both periods of direct rule and to the Stormont Assembly as now constituted, have totally neglected the refurbishment of water ducts and so on in Northern Ireland and it is now time that they addressed that?

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

Something like £2,000 million was invested in water in Northern Ireland in the 18 years up to 2006-07. Since then, a further £1 billion has been invested but it is quite clear that more money is required for investing in the infrastructure. However, acquiring help in the crisis is a different issue compared with long-term involvement in the infrastructure.

Control of Donations and Regulation of Loans etc. (Extension of the Prescribed Period) (Northern Ireland) Order 2011

Lord Smith of Clifton Excerpts

Monday 7th February 2011 Grand Committee

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I am grateful for the clear explanation from the Minister in what is rather a complex area. We note the strong support for lifting the exemption in place in Northern Ireland; I think that 77 per cent of respondents suggested that they were in favour of that. However, despite the enormous progress in Northern Ireland over recent years, we appreciate that the political situation there continues to be sensitive and that caution is required.

It is interesting that 12 per cent of respondents—the same number who supported the Government’s position of no change—supported option 3. As noble Lords know, that option is the current exemption with some modifications—for example, publishing the amounts received, the recipient, and whether the donor was an individual or a company. In principle we support greater transparency in the Northern Ireland political and electoral system but, given the serious and difficult security situation, we understand that a responsible Government need to exercise caution. We consider that option 3, which was canvassed in the Northern Ireland order consultation paper, struck a good balance between protecting the security of the people participating in the political process by providing donations and loans, and the expectation of the public to have transparency in the electoral system.

This is an important order so, as the Committee would expect, I have several questions to put to the Minister. He gave various reasons for continuing the current exemption unamended, but I wondered why the Government happened on two years. What is the rationale for that? He rightly mentioned the intimidation that is taking place. What are the Government planning to do to reduce the risk of intimidation that currently prevents the details being released? Will the Government use the two years’ extension to develop and implement a more transparent system for political donations and loans of the kind considered under option 3?

Paragraph 12 of the Government’s response to the consultation document said that the department would examine the possibilities of making option 3 transparency changes through secondary legislation. It would be helpful to have further clarification on that point. What options and types of transparency changes is the department looking at? What is the originating primary legislation power that would enable such secondary legislation to be made? What is the timeframe for this work? Finally, will the public be consulted on the possible options?

I hope that noble Lords will forgive this raft of questions, but they are very important. I look forward to the Minister’s response.

[Lord Smith of Clifton]

My Lords, I, too, thank my noble friend for introducing this order. Bearing in mind that the Belfast agreement took place in 1998, it is very depressing that here we are and we cannot have normal conditions obtaining in Northern Ireland. I take some heart from the fact that it is only a two-year extension, by which I mean, pace the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, that a signal has been given to the political parties that this is the last time that the order will be continued in its present form. I hope that it will lapse. As the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, has said, there have been great steps forward—after a very irregular start since the Belfast agreement when we had the suspension of Stormont—but we should look forward to normal transparencies obtaining.

To get a sense of the order of magnitude, I should like to ask my noble friend if for the past financial year he can indicate the totals of donations by party. While I appreciate that for the current year we might see an increase in donations because it is an election year, it will be nevertheless very interesting to have it on the public record to see at what sums we are looking—whether they are trivial or of some substance. I should be grateful for that information.

[Lord Bew]

I, too, thank the noble Lord, Lord Shutt, for introducing this order. Like the noble Lord, Lord Smith, I have listened to his words with a degree of disappointment. It is right to say that the limits on the progress that has been made in Northern Ireland—remarkable though that progress has been—are shown in that we are still talking about these exemptions and derogations from broader UK electoral law and the transparency of such law.

I am not surprised by the words of the Minister and the proposal put today because the balance of opinion, to my surprise, in Northern Ireland over the past year has been very cautious about changing existing regulations. It has become clear for some time that the Government, if they were to respond to what they were hearing, would have to be relatively cautious in their response. But, having plagued the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, when he was at the Dispatch Box as long ago as 2007 on this matter and having, I think, plagued the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, on this matter, it would be hypocritical of me not to record a note of disappointment. I know why the Government have reached this conclusion. I know that they may have been slightly surprised by the degree of concern on the part of the political parties. But having received that, any responsible Government have to pay attention to it.

I simply make the point that Northern Ireland last year was convulsed by public scandals. One of the issues that lay in the background was that of the relationship of certain businessmen to certain political parties. In the rest of the United Kingdom, such matters would be easily sorted out and put into the public domain, but in Northern Ireland we do not know where we stand. That is a difficulty and the step that the Minister is taking is regrettable, if understandable.

The noble Lord, Lord Smith, says that he hopes that there is a two-year limit and that the provision might just lapse in two years. However, having been at this now for four years, I am not quite so secure in that assumption. I hope that he is right. Therefore, I would like to be reassured that the Minister is as clear as he appears to be that the department is looking carefully at work to deal with this by secondary legislation and, if it cannot be done by that method, that primary legislation will be introduced that at least loosens some of the provisions and gives greater openness. I have an uneasy feeling that, in the short term, that will be the best that we can do; I very much hope that I am wrong. Therefore, it is important that the Northern Ireland Office looks carefully at what can be done in certain areas, because I have a feeling that—even two years from now—we will not be looking at the simple lapsing of this legislation.

Northern Ireland Assembly (Elections) (Amendment) Order 2010

Lord Smith of Clifton Excerpts

Wednesday 24th November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bew]

My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Lord, Lord Shutt, for introducing these two draft statutory instruments today and say that I broadly support their thrust—with one caveat, which I shall come to.

It might help the House briefly to explain why the Government are right to go ahead with the local government elections next year, even though there has not been the reform and rationalisation of local government that we were hoping for in Northern Ireland. It is right because we now have a situation, because of the long years since the last local government elections, whereby nominations have become more and more the practice in filling our city councils. I remember saying to the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, about 18 months ago, when she was dealing with this question with her usual skill, that it is a problem, and that if the large political parties believe in direct elections to your Lordships' House it would be a good idea to start with the principle of direct elections to councils in Northern Ireland. At that point, the Dunmurry ward of Lisburn City Council already had a majority of councillors who were not elected but were nominated by the main parties as a result of people retiring from their positions for various reasons—some five out of nine. Just today, the Irish News has published figures for Belfast City Council, the largest council. By January, it is clear that there will be only 32 out of 51 elected members in Belfast City Council, and 40 per cent will be nominated.

We have reached a point whereby it is absolutely essential, despite the difficulties and the fact that it would be much better if we had a reform of local government first, that the Government should say that we will have two elections and possibly a referendum on one day. But that is where my caveat comes in: it will be very hard work indeed to ensure that nothing goes wrong, especially because a number of the polling stations in Northern Ireland are actually rather small places, physically. Will the Minister reassure us that the Government, at least in part, get that point? If you have two elections and one referendum on the same day, in the circumstances that exist, the Government will have to do an awful lot of preparation to ensure that nothing goes wrong and that we have a satisfactory polling day.

[Lord Smith of Clifton]

My Lords, I support these two orders. I think that they are tidying-up orders and are necessary. I support very much what the noble Lords, Lord Kilclooney and Lord Bew, said. However, pace the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, in my experience the most sophisticated electorate on these islands is to be found in Northern Ireland. I do not know this in any pejorative sense, but they actually know how to vote under different systems and have been doing so for a long time—far longer than anywhere else in the devolved regions. I genuinely believe that it would be in the capacity of the electoral authorities and the electors to have two elections and a referendum on the same day.

Bloody Sunday Inquiry

Lord Smith of Clifton Excerpts

Wednesday 13th October 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Smith of Clifton]

I thank my noble friend Lord Shutt for introducing this important debate and I look forward to the maiden speech of my noble friend Lord Macdonald. First, like so many other noble Lords, I believe that the tone, tenor and substance of the Prime Minister’s response to the Saville report were appropriate in every respect. I congratulate Mr Cameron on that. It helps to make for satisfactory closure, to use the current argot, and allows the political system in Northern Ireland to mature. The development of a more normal politics, and one that is appreciably less sectarian, is desperately overdue.

Secondly, we are all indebted to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Saville, and his colleagues for producing such a detailed, meticulous and comprehensive analysis of the events of Bloody Sunday some 38 years ago. As so many noble Lords have said, such a report was necessary to redeem the reputation of United Kingdom justice and government more generally since the earlier and—as is now widely recognised—infamous Widgery report was published. That was a whitewash and a cover-up on an unprecedented scale. The widespread reaction against Widgery’s findings was, as Saville notes, totally counterproductive and acted as the best recruiting agent for the Provisional IRA. All future public inquiries should be compelled to take a crash course on the dangers, both immediate and longer term, of hasty fixes and fudges.

It was fitting, therefore, that it was a Conservative Prime Minister who responded to Saville in the way that he did because it was a Conservative PM, Edward Health, who set up the Widgery inquiry in the first place. Widgery was a stain on the United Kingdom judiciary. It placed a further and unnecessary strain on the judges in Northern Ireland, who were carrying out their duties under the most trying circumstances. I have known the last four Chief Justices of Northern Ireland, including the noble and learned Lord, Lord Carswell, who is speaking in this debate, and have witnessed the impartiality and assiduity that they all brought to the exercise of their duties. That dedication survives and bodes well for the future constitutional development of Northern Ireland.

In welcoming the Saville report and the responses that it evoked, I believe that there remain two more general UK-wide considerations. The most worrying is the use of the British Army in peacekeeping operations, to which the noble Lord, Lord Mawhinney, referred. There are some successes, of course, of which we must be proud, but too many unacceptable outrages are still being perpetrated. The immediate reaction of the military is always to claim that lessons have been learnt—that was said after the publication of the Saville report—but the events in Derry 38 years ago were not dissimilar to what has happened more recently in Basra in Iraq and in Helmand province in Afghanistan. Basically, as the noble Lord, Lord Mawhinney, pointed out, the military are not adequately trained to carry out peacekeeping, which is essentially a police operation. I can only hope that in the defence review being undertaken much more provision for training the Army in police methods will be considered. It will be more important in the future than aircraft carriers. I ask my noble friend to reassure me on this point.

Furthermore, will my noble friend say whether there was any truth in Monday’s Guardian report that official archives illustrated that Ministry of Defence policy was to fully prosecute republican paramilitaries while being lenient on loyalist paramilitaries? That would resonate with one’s observations at the time and would be consistent with the woefully misleading findings of the Widgery report.

Finally, there is the question of cost, to which others have referred. Almost £200 million is as unbelievable as it is unacceptable. The problem lies in the fact that lawyers, both as barristers and as judges, have no experience of project management. In fact, throughout their careers, they are managed by their clerks. Only in the topmost positions in the judicial hierarchy are they called on to manage and that comes late in their careers. As has been said, the Ministry of Justice must attend to this problem of excessive costs. By way of a benchmark, I ask my noble friend what the budgetary spend of Derry City Council was in the past financial year. As others have said, we must find a solution. The Government must come forward on it because, if you are not going to have public inquiries or if you are going to truncate them severely, as seems likely, you must have some mechanism to deal with these sorts of issues as they arise, as they clearly will, not just in Northern Ireland but elsewhere where we deploy our Army. We must now all pray that Northern Ireland can progress and develop as a mature civil society and democratic polity.