Stormont House Agreement

Debate between Lord Shutt of Greetland and Lord Kilclooney

Wednesday 7th January 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Shutt of Greetland (LD)]

My Lords—

[Lord Kilclooney (CB)]

My Lords—

Northern Ireland: Economy

Debate between Lord Shutt of Greetland and Lord Kilclooney

Wednesday 19th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, on securing this splendid and important debate. I am grateful to your Lordships for the quality of their contributions. Noble Lords have travelled down memory lane but in so doing have provided tremendous insight into the journeys and experiences that have ultimately brought them to this House. It is a privilege to listen to so many wonderful contributions.

The coalition Government’s commitment to rebalancing the Northern Ireland economy is one of the key objectives we share with the Northern Ireland Executive. The recent announcement by the Chancellor that air passenger duty in Northern Ireland would be reduced and then ultimately devolved to the Assembly shows that we are prepared to act decisively and creatively in order to keep the economy moving. I believe we all agree that the Northern Ireland economy is overreliant on public sector spending. The situation is understandable—one of the sad legacies of the Troubles is that the economy stagnated in Northern Ireland while it grew elsewhere. The support of the public sector was necessary, but both now and in the longer term relying on those levels of public spending is unsustainable.

The Northern Ireland Executive and Invest Northern Ireland have had some notable successes in attracting investment in recent years, with new entrants to the Northern Ireland market such as the New York Stock Exchange and Citigroup and the expansion of existing businesses such as PricewaterhouseCoopers—all creating jobs which add value to the Northern Ireland economy. However, these successes are not enough. Northern Ireland still has some way to go and, for that reason, the Treasury consultation paper on rebalancing the Northern Ireland economy set out some radical proposals for discussion.

The business community has made the case that a reduction in corporation tax to a level similar to that in Ireland would kick-start inward investment and growth, sending a resounding message that Northern Ireland was open for business. Those responsible for attracting inward investment in the Republic are adamant about the role their business tax regime has played in ensuring that even during the global economic downturn Ireland remains at or near the top of the global rankings for attracting inward investment and jobs. The head of the Irish economic development agency has said that the 12.5 per cent corporation tax rate is the “cornerstone” of Irish industrial policy.

However, we need to be cautious—as has been repeated here—because low corporation tax is not a silver bullet. Infrastructure, education, training and the planning regime all play a key role, too. The Exchequer Secretary has written to the First Minister and Deputy First Minister about the creation of a working group to further examine issues raised during the consultation period. The work of that group will be vital in gaining deeper insight into the potential costs, benefits and administrative hurdles associated with a tax reduction. We must not try to pre-empt the outworkings of that process. No decisions have yet been made, but we all look forward to the insight that the ministerial group will give to the issue.

I will now endeavour to pick up the points raised during the debate. The noble Lord, Lord Lexden, referred to the working group and hoped that I would add something on it. The noble Baroness also referred to it. It is only in recent days that the invitation was put to the Northern Ireland Executive asking them to nominate Ministers to serve on a group. Their decision was to come up with four Ministers—the First Minister, the Deputy First Minister, and the two Ministers responsible for finance and for trade and industry. The point was made about business as usual and getting on with life in the way in which others would. The four Ministers have been put up. The Executive were asked, “Who would you like to serve on the group?”. It was not even asked of them, “How many would you like? Who would be the appropriate people?”. The Executive have chosen those four people because of their function. They will, of course, be able to report back to the Northern Ireland Executive. Three parties who also have jobs in the Executive are not among those four people. In effect, it is the people themselves on that Executive who have come up with the four people who they think are right to serve on that group.

[Lord Kilclooney]

As to the cost of reducing corporation tax in Northern Ireland, the Chancellor of the Exchequer during his most recent visit to Northern Ireland said that reducing the tax could mean a reduction in the block grant of £400 million. This committee will now consider what would be the cost of the tax reduction. Is it not surprising that various businesses and organisations supported the reduction of corporation tax without even knowing how much it was going to cost the people of Northern Ireland?

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

There is work to be done, which is why the committee has been set up to look at the detail of how this would work. Think about this: in this jurisdiction, we have income tax rates of 20 per cent and 40 per cent, and 50 per cent for people earning in excess of £150,000. In the Republic, the tax rates are 21 per cent and 40 per cent. In this jurisdiction, we have VAT of 20 per cent. In the Republic it is 21 per cent. It is even stevens.

On corporation tax, our rate is at 26 per cent, being reduced to 23 per cent, but in the Republic it is at 12.5 per cent. The Republic has held discussions with Europe as to how to endeavour to solve its troubles. Of course, it was under great pressure not to have that low rate of corporation tax. I find it instructive that the Republic has fought tooth and nail to retain a 12.5 per cent rate. I turn to the noble Lord, Lord Bew, who has been moving on this issue. The Republic’s clear view that that 12.5 per cent rate has been so important concentrates the mind. I understand that.

The noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, asked whether the Northern Ireland Executive are up to the job. It is not for me to take a view on whether people are up to the job. They have been elected and, under the system there, various people have executive roles. I am led to believe that we will not have to wait that much longer for a programme for government. On rebalancing the economy, the discussions are not a done deal, but if the rebalancing on corporation tax can take place, that may well energise them to look at other areas where the Executive can do what they can do to rebalance the economy.

Five sets of people are involved: much depends on the devolved Government, what they can do and the powers that they have, including with what is clearly a well-thought-of organisation, Invest Northern Ireland; there is also what this Government can do, although because of devolution that is somewhat limited—that is one reason why this idea has come from the Secretary of State; there is the involvement of Europe; there is the use of the cross-border entities, particularly on tourism; and, very importantly, there is the inventiveness of the private sector itself, which is a point that has already been made by several noble Lords.

I was very impressed by the contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Black of Brentwood. I am always impressed by that which I do not expect and do not know about which arises in debates in this House. On culture, the city of Derry/Londonderry will be the city of culture in 2013. Bearing in mind the detail of what the noble Lord had to say, I felt that he could well be placed as a consultant to the Northern Ireland Executive on cultural matters.

The noble Lord, Lord Empey, referred to food and was the one person who said that this was not about bother in Northern Ireland but about the economy of Northern Ireland. It is not for the UK Government to say where Invest Northern Ireland’s priorities ought to be. The noble Lord makes the very valid point that for so many reasons it is clearly an area that should be looked at as a possibility for investment. Of course, it would be for the Northern Ireland Executive to take that view.

I am concerned about the time. My time is up. If there are any specifics and anything that I have been asked about to which I have not responded, I will endeavour to do that. It has been a splendid debate on the possibilities of what can be done, based on the rebalancing report and splendid introduction made by the noble Lord, Lord Lexden. I hope and believe that so many of the contributions will be noted by Her Majesty’s Government as we go forward.

Northern Ireland: Bill of Rights

Debate between Lord Shutt of Greetland and Lord Kilclooney

Wednesday 15th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, I cannot give any specific dates or times. Civil servants have already talked to people in the human rights fraternity in Northern Ireland, and the next job is to get involved with the Assembly and to get things moving. I said on the previous occasion, and I repeat now, that with the new Assembly there is an opportunity to break into this issue, which I understand is of long standing. It is important that we move forward.

[Lord Kilclooney]

My Lords, does the Minister recall that, when we negotiated the Belfast agreement, we had it specifically written into the agreement that there would be progress on human rights not only in Northern Ireland but in the Republic of Ireland? When will the Government make representations to Dublin to have the obligations under the Belfast agreement honoured after 13 years?

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, I cannot answer for the Government of Ireland. However, as I indicated on the previous occasion that the noble Lord, Lord Smith, raised this question, I wrote to the Government of Ireland to let them know of the concerns of the noble Lord, Lord Kilclooney. Your Lordships will note that, regardless of there being, in the noble Lord’s words, no progress, an Irish Human Rights Commission has been set up and is very busy in its work.

Northern Ireland: Bill of Rights

Debate between Lord Shutt of Greetland and Lord Kilclooney

Tuesday 15th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

If you want the answer you can have it—the Prime Minister announced that a group of people would be put together for a human rights Act for Britain. Therefore, the Belfast agreement has to embrace those other three factors.

[Lord Kilclooney]

My Lords, can the Minister confirm that the Belfast agreement brought benefits to the peoples of both states in the island of Ireland? Can he recall that there were obligations on the Dublin Government in that agreement to create a human rights commission, to ratify the Council of Europe’s convention on national minorities, and to legislate for employment equality and for respect of the different traditions in the island? Can he confirm whether any of those four requirements have been honoured yet by the Dublin Government? For those that have not been honoured, will he make representations to the new Government elected in the south of Ireland a few weeks ago?

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, as I indicated earlier, I will do my best to speak for this Government. It is someone else’s job to speak for the Government of Ireland. However, in another coalition agreement, between Fine Gael and Labour in the south, there is one line that the Belfast agreement and the St Andrews agreement “shall be honoured”. If that is in their coalition agreement, it applies to them as it does here, and I will see to it that I write accordingly.

Northern Ireland Assembly (Elections) (Amendment) Order 2010

Debate between Lord Shutt of Greetland and Lord Kilclooney

Wednesday 24th November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords who have contributed to this debate and will endeavour to respond to the points that have been raised. The noble Baroness, Lady Royall, paid tribute to what has been going on in Northern Ireland in recent times. We are all much happier about matters there than we were some years ago. I understand the fragility that she speaks about, but these elections, certainly as all three will be on the one day, are an opportunity for a democratic moment in Northern Ireland.

My noble friend Lord Smith talked about the sophisticated electorate. There are clear advantages to having the three polls on one day. It is more convenient for voters and, indeed, in these difficult times, it will lead to financial savings because of the shared resources. There will be unique logistical challenges, but I am satisfied that the practical risk can be managed properly. I have asked officials to continue to liaise closely with the Chief Electoral Officer and the Electoral Commission to ensure the early resolution of potential problems. The commission believes, certainly at the moment, that the preparations are on track.

The Government have considered the impact of the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill on the composition of the Assembly. We will not dictate the size of the Assembly; that is for the Assembly to consider. When it has considered this issue, we have committed to legislating to give effect to its wishes regarding its size.

The noble Baroness, Lady Royall, referred to different electoral systems. If the AV Bill and the referendum are carried, it is certain that in all elections in Northern Ireland at any rate the elector will not face confusion because every ballot paper will be marked “1, 2, 3, 4” for them to mark their preferences.

The noble Lord, Lord Kilclooney, referred to his time in government in Northern Ireland and the “vote early, vote often” regimes. I think that he sees the point of having three elections on one day.

The position of the boxes will be a matter for the electoral returning officers. The ballot papers will be different colours so that there is no confusion, but it is up to the returning officers in Northern Ireland whether there is one box or three. I know from my experience that, if there are three boxes, all three will have to be emptied at once because there may well be ballot papers in the wrong box. It is important to give that proper consideration, but it is a matter for the Chief Electoral Officer. It may be simpler to have the one box rather than three, but that is for him or her to decide.

The noble Lord referred to advertising. Public awareness of the forthcoming elections is a matter for the Electoral Commission. I will draw to its attention the noble Lord’s comments about the validity of advertising in local newspapers. The Chief Electoral Officer is required to publish the draft polling station scheme and place a notice in local newspapers to let electors know that it is subject to consultation. This information is also published on websites.

The decision on what languages to use in the publications will be made by the Chief Electoral Officer rather than at a district level.

[Lord Kilclooney]

Northern Ireland has seen the arrival of thousands upon thousands of Europeans. People from one country go to one town and people from another country go to another—it is not spread evenly across Northern Ireland. For example, you get lots of Portuguese in Dungannon, while in Armagh there are lots of Poles. We need to be careful which language we select in which area. We just cannot have it generally across the whole of Northern Ireland.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, I am grateful for that comment. Clearly, it will be up to the Chief Electoral Officer, and he or she will be able to decide whether to use the languages across Northern Ireland or whether to be selective in where to use them. I will make certain that the Chief Electoral Officer is aware of that concern.

The noble Lord, Lord Kilclooney, referred to polling agents. I understand that polling agents are used in Northern Ireland; they can, of course, be used at every election in the UK, but it has been the tendency not to use them. Certainly in my part of the world polling agents have not been used, but tellers have been. Tellers are always outside the polling station, not inside. I understand that there is concern about polling agents but some effort is being made to ensure consistency with Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK. Polling agents are available to be used in the rest of the UK.

The noble Lord also referred to consultation. I will have to respond to him later about that; I did not quite catch his concern and I do not have a note on it. However, I heard the comment about stalemate as far as local government is concerned, which other speakers also mentioned.

I was grateful for the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Browne of Belmont, who, in effect, welcomed the orders. He will understand that, as we all know, it is harder to obtain a postal vote in Northern Ireland. Indeed, although there is some easing because of social workers being able to sign and so on, it is still very difficult to get a postal vote, compared to what happens in England, where it is offered freely.

The noble Lord, Lord Bew, referred to the nominated members. Clearly, this is a good reason why we cannot go on for ever saying, “They might revise local government so let’s just hang on and give them another year”. If 32 out of 51 members are nominated by political parties and have in no way been chosen by the electorate at large, it is a valid point. It makes the case that there should be an election for local government according to the present wards and boundaries, in the absence of reform.

I am glad to have the support of the noble Lord, Lord Smith of Clifton, who understands that these orders are a positive way forward. The noble Lord, Lord Maginnis, referred to the patch on the wound, which became a plaster when he finished. I understand and accept the point about the local government review, but this is devolution. If we devolve and Northern Ireland is given the powers, it must make its own way with local government. Once we have allowed devolution and taken the view that this is the position, it is up to those people and, indeed, people like the noble Lord and others who have influence in Northern Ireland to make the case for change. However, it is their decision; you cannot have devolution and then take it back.

Local government is a matter for the Executive. We still hope that agreement can be reached but it clearly will not be reached this side of the local government elections, which we hope will be on 5 May 2011. I trust that this is a fair response to the points that have been made and I hope that these orders can now be agreed.