Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Lord Shinkwin Excerpts

Friday 12th December 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Fraser of Craigmaddie (Con)]

My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendments 17 and 309A in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Beith, which I have supported. The noble Lord sends his sincere apologies that he cannot be here today. I will also speak to Amendment 62 in my name. I thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, for his discussions with both the noble Lord and me on how this Bill affects Scotland.

These are probing amendments. They seek to establish the scope of the Bill, firstly with regard to residents of England who may find themselves availing of Scottish health services. Amendments 17 and 309A remove an anomaly in the Bill under which some residents in England close to the Scottish border will be excluded from its scope because they are registered with a Scottish GP. This is relatively common in border areas, as it may be that a Scottish GP is closer than the nearest English practice, or it may reflect a desire to stay with the same practice after moving house. The BMA has identified cross-jurisdiction protection for doctors supporting their patients in shared-care arrangements across borders as a gap in this Bill that it would like to see addressed in Committee. The Scottish Ambulance Service has also requested further clarity on what paramedics should do or not do across border areas. How does the noble and learned Lord plan to address these issues?

My Amendment 62 is about whether the remit of the Bill extends, perhaps unwittingly, to Scottish doctors, as it probes whether any Scottish GP, whether or not you are registered with them, can undertake preliminary discussions. The Amendment refers to Clause 3, referred to on page 1 of the Bill, and the steps taken under Clauses 8, 10, 11 and 19. Clause 8 refers to the preliminary discussion, the initial request for assistance and the first declaration that is done by the terminally ill person who, under subsection (3)(a), must be in England and Wales, but Clauses 10 and 11 are about the role of doctors. My reading of Clause 1(3), which was inserted in the other place, is that the steps in Clauses 8, 10, 11 and 19 must be taken when the terminally ill person is in England or Wales, but the steps in Clauses 10 and 11 are to be taken only by doctors in England and Wales—not Clause 8, the initial request for assistance, or Clause 19, the confirmation of the request for assistance, or second declaration. They could be undertaken by any GP and, as such, the Bill as it stands would permit discussions to be undertaken by GPs in Scotland even though they would not be regulated under the Bill. Is this what the sponsors of the Bill intended?

I believe there would be a number of consequential issues that might need to be addressed, depending on the territorial extent of the Bill. For example, can the noble and learned Lord say whether the recording required of the preliminary discussion in Clause 7 would work for Scottish GPs? Given the very separate record keeping of NHS Scotland and NHS England, which he and I have discussed, the considerable challenges of cross-border data sharing in the context of health, particularly in primary care, and the separate Scottish legal context, where does that leave the offence of destruction of documentation in Clauses 35 and 36 if the preliminary discussion is undertaken by a Scottish GP? If the intention is that Scottish GPs can undertake these discussions, can I ask the sponsors to clarify this for the record? If this is not the intention, can the noble and learned Lord consider whether the territorial extent needs to be clarified in other areas of the Bill? If it is not the intention, does the noble and learned Lord consider that further amendments need to be tabled to ensure that this loophole is closed? Perhaps he could take us through the provisions relating to Scotland in this response and clarify.

I believe that, when parts of the Bill were extended to Scotland on Report, the sponsor did not have time to explain why they were needed or what they did. The honourable Member for Glasgow West asked whether the Bill’s sponsors had had any conversations with Scotland’s Lord Advocate and the Scottish Government, and the honourable Member for Spen Valley was only able to confirm that she had taken legal advice from government officials to ensure that devolution is respected. She stated that conversations had already started and would continue where legislation that affects other jurisdictions needs to be amended. Could the Minister confirm for us what guidance the Government have provided regarding the provisions relating to Scotland and their necessity?

As this House is well aware, the Scottish Parliament is currently going through its own stages on an assisted dying Private Member’s Bill in Holyrood, so we are facing the very real possibility of a two-tier system in Britain, which the former Prime Minister Gordon Brown has highlighted as being extremely concerning. There is currently a sharp divide between what has been proposed for Scotland and what we have before us here. The amendments in this group do not affect in any way what happens in Scotland, but, like the former Prime Minister, I am very concerned that we could find ourselves in a situation where people are moving between the two jurisdictions. At the very least, I would have expected there to be intensive consultation between the two Parliaments.

The Scottish Cabinet Secretary for Health has written a number of letters to the lead committee on assisted dying in the Scottish Parliament, in which he acknowledges that the Scottish and UK Government officials must continue to hold discussions on the legislative competence issues. Is the Minister able to say more about these discussions? Are they confined to legislative competence or do they extend to issues such as delivery timescales, the regulatory framework of medical practitioners across the UK and the intention to give Scottish Ministers the authority to determine approved substances to use, all of which Mr Gray has highlighted as concerns and are indicative of the problems of having potentially different systems north and south of the border?

In conclusion, it seems to me that matters are moving and changing at pace, both with additions to this Bill and the Scottish Bill. If things are done piecemeal or with haste, we are in danger of assisted dying becoming another deposit return scheme—although you cannot return from being dead. The deposit return scheme was an example of the two Parliaments wanting to implement something that needed careful consultation and co-operation across the UK, legislating separately, both totally within their devolved areas but, in the case of Scotland, ending up with a Bill that could not be implemented because of the cross-border issues that had not been fully acknowledged and addressed. Addressing these issues and getting clear answers from the Bill’s sponsors and the Minister are what this group of amendments is about, and I believe they are essential. I beg to move.

[Lord Shinkwin (Con)]

My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendment 17, particularly in relation to the Scottish Ambulance Service, which my noble friend Lady Fraser of Craigmaddie mentioned briefly in her speech. I do so as someone who can remember just about all my journeys in ambulances—some in agony after a fracture, some with the blue light flashing, others more sedate. What marked them all was a sense that, however much pain I was in, I was none the less safe. The ambulance crew were in control of the situation, caring, competent and consistently professional. That is my abiding memory based on first-hand experience.

I am concerned, as I understand the Scottish Ambulance Service is, that there is currently no guidance on this specific issue even though its absence has significant practical implications. Simply put, from a frequent ambulance traveller’s perspective, without this amendment ambulance crews and other healthcare professionals might well not feel fully in control of the situation. That is just not where you want to be as a potential patient needing urgent emergency care.

Surely, emergency services operating across the Scotland-England boundary not only need but deserve clear guidance. For example, what exactly is a paramedic meant to do if they are called out because an assisted death has gone badly wrong, leaving the individual seriously injured but very much alive, which of course can happen and indeed has happened on occasion in other jurisdictions where such legislation has been implemented? It does happen, yet the Bill, as far as I can see, is silent on this point, which is not much use to a paramedic desperately wanting to provide care when an emergency response is requested due to complications such as choking or vomiting.

I am not aware of this having been covered in the impact assessment, or of John Grady having received an answer when he raised this very issue on Report in the other place. So, I would be very grateful if the Minister could share with the House in her closing remarks what work has been done by the Government to evaluate and address such an important cross-border issue.

[The Lord Bishop of Norwich]

My Lords, I support Amendments 17 and 309A, proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Beith, and so ably explained by the noble Baroness, Lady Fraser. I declare an interest, in that my wife is a GP and a medical examiner—so the Bill has had much discussion at home.

Having spent 10 years living in Northumberland, and having friends who live along the Scottish border, I know that many of those living sufficiently close to the border have chosen very deliberately to be registered with a Scottish GP because they then receive free prescriptions. This raises a number of questions for the noble and learned Lord.

Let us say that you live on the English side of the border, at Cornhill-on-Tweed, and your GP is in Coldstream. The sense of continuity of care that GPs give to their patients is vital to that GP-patient relationship. Indeed, this House was reminded of that yesterday in the excellent maiden speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Gerada:

“That continuity, seeing lives unfold across time, gives general practice its unique moral and social power. It allows us to see people as whole human beings, not as isolated organs or diagnoses”.—[Official Report, 11/12/25; col. 370.]


In supporting this probing amendment, I am interested to discover more about how that continuity of care that is so essential in primary health care can be continued.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, I want to make a practical point. It is obvious that this will be the first Act in relation to assisted dying. Clearly, it is unjust because it does not deal with people with motor neurone disease and so on. Why does the House not accept that the issue of prisoners should be in the next Bill and not the present one?

[Lord Shinkwin (Con)]

My Lords, I will keep my remarks very brief. I rise to speak in support of Amendments 30A and 119A in the name of my noble friend Lady Berridge. I thank her most sincerely for tabling them and thank my noble friend Lady Monckton for her supportive remarks. Disabled people and people with Down’s syndrome should know that this House would never treat them as bottom of the heap.

Given the evidence provided to the Select Committee by the National Down Syndrome Policy Group, the question to my mind is not so much why we would want, but why would we not want to support the provisions in these amendments? We are talking about vulnerable young adults who deserve and need extra protection on account of their disability. I say that as a disabled person who has been involved in championing disability rights for almost 30 years. Such protection as would be afforded by these amendments is neither patronising nor discriminatory. On the contrary, it is our duty to strike the correct balance between rights and protection. I believe these amendments do so.