Higher Education and Research Bill

Debate between Lord Sharkey and Lord Mendelsohn

Committee: 7th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 30th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharkey]

My Lords, I shall speak briefly to Amendments 480 and 481 in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Willis. The Bill proposes what is really quite a radical reduction in the size of the existing research councils, which are to have between six and 10 members. The existing councils have between 10 and 17 members, with an average of 15, of whom four or five are lay members. It would be good to hear from the Minister an explanation of the rationale for this reduction in the size of the research councils. In particular, could he point to evidence that their current size has led to inefficiencies or undesirable outcomes? If that is not possible, can he say what the evidence base is for suggesting how a reduction in the membership would actually improve their performance?

I note here in passing that the membership of UKRI itself is proposed to be at least 12 and at most 15. Why is it desirable that the membership of the research councils should be smaller than that of UKRI itself? I am not arguing that it is not, but I would just like to hear the reason the Government think it is.

Of course, it is not just the numbers that matter but the experience and the mix of the members. The practice of having lay members is an important part of our current councils. As I say, each of them has four or five lay members, except for the STFC which has three or four, depending on whether you count people as lay or not. We know from experience in other fields, especially financial services, how important it is to avoid groupthink and to have outsiders challenge established or entrenched views. Can the Minister set out what approach UKRI will take to the appointment of lay members to the research councils? Is it the intention that the present balance should continue?

[Lord Mendelsohn]

My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendments 500B, 507ZB and 507B, but first I will echo the support of these Benches for the amendments proposed. It is important to understand that they share the objective of trying to maximise the effectiveness of UKRI and the councils themselves. I hope that the Minister will be able to provide reasonable assurances on these matters.

The case made by the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, about their size is very important. In all the evidence we have received there has been no suggestion that their size has been a disadvantage—quite the opposite: it has been a huge advantage. I will be interested to hear the justification for the reduction in number and whether there has been any assessment as to whether this diminishes capacity.

We strongly support the call for independent chairs. That case was extremely well made by the noble Baroness, Lady Brown of Cambridge. Not only do they have a good record of governance thus far, but it has been good governance. The noble Lord, Lord Broers, made the essential point that in any circumstances where there is a board, corporate governance has got to the position it has because a board needs a chair to deal with the issues incumbent on dealing with a chief executive. To eliminate that would be a strongly mistaken act.

It is imperative that councils remain the prestigious and capable institutions that they are. Their role should not be usurped or superseded. They require independence and authority. They should not be the plaything of Ministers. There should be a real, consistent quality to the recruitment of staff, the board and lay people. The Minister should accept that this should be a measure of whether they are still meeting that test. In ensuring that the councils can work effectively, especially in a new framework, they cannot have the notion that they will change quickly and rapidly from their original brief, because that would unsettle these arrangements.

There is real power to the weight of the arguments presented. I hope that the Minister will reflect on them. It reminds me of Confucius’s saying that there are three methods by which we may learn wisdom. The first is by reflection, which is the noblest. The second is by imitation, which is the easiest—I am sure that noble Lords would be more than happy if the Government were to imitate the amendments. But the third is by experience, which is the bitterest. I hope that the Minister will consider that, in this area, the weight of the arguments would help the Government to learn how they would have to rectify this from bitter experience. It is important that governance is absolutely right.

In Amendment 507B we suggest, because there is no real stated role for councils in UKRI, that the executive committee should have a role in the innovation strategy. We think that it is important that those who work on it are specifically defined as having that role.

The amendment that stands out slightly is the one that proposes that the royal charters should remain in existence but not in force. The crucial question is whether this would work or whether leaving them would create its own problems. There are two reasons for keeping them. First, in the circumstances that we are unable to establish that this system will work better, or that the mechanisms will reach a critical mass of working better, it is important that there is some useful architecture to revert to in this area, where we cannot afford to get things wrong. Our current method has not been shown to have any poor performance; it is just that we believe that there are better ways. Secondly, the system should accord a level of prestige.

There is not really a case for removal. The discussions that many noble Lords have had with the Privy Council suggested that the royal charters do not necessarily need to be eliminated. There is an argument to say that having the safety net of keeping them in place would mean that some might use it to undermine the current arrangements. This is not a reasonable concern, although it would be if we did not have such a great degree of unanimity about the importance of trying to move on and reach a new stage.

Motivation is more likely. If this is properly managed by Ministers and incentivised, there would be a quicker desire to remove the stabilisers. There may even be the opportunity for it to be a more liberating mechanism to ensure that other inventive, creative mechanisms are used. It is important that we do not throw everything out and that we do not eliminate things that we do not have to.

Finally, I would be grateful to clarify one element in this section that has not been fully covered: the position of government departments’ areas of research. Some government departments have their own research facilities, such as the Department of Health, the Ministry of Defence, Defra and others. Some would say that these are fiefdoms but I would say that they are just areas that fall under the government departments. How will they relate to the new arrangements? Of course, as we look at the Nurse review, there was consideration that these should be considered under the ambit of Research Councils UK. Indeed, the section that included Innovate UK and HEFCE—not that I wish to reopen the discussion we had earlier—also said that consideration should be given to the place of other government departments’ research within Research Councils UK. I would be very interested to hear how the Government view their interrelationship with this new set up.