Cities and Local Government Devolution Bill [HL]
Debate between Lord Scriven and Lord McKenzie of Luton
Lord Scriven
My Lords, I have some practical experience of this as a former council leader. When I became leader of the council in Sheffield, we had an economic development agency which met in private. Everything was in private—advice, meetings and papers—because it was deemed to be somehow arm’s length and pseudo public sector. Through a very hard-fought and long battle, I thought that it was absolutely right that that was dealt with in public, because huge amounts of public money were being spent on behalf of the people of Sheffield. The reason to write this in the Bill is to open up the advice and the decisions made.
I hear what the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, says, but exactly the same arguments were used in another place when what became the Freedom of Information Act was published. With freedom of information, a lot of the advice given now could be made public. This is just the next step concerning that type of advice. I see no reason why, if someone wishes to understand a decision in the area where they live, where multi-billions of pounds are spent on their behalf to improve their lives, they cannot be privy to some of the advice given before someone makes a decision. It is really important that both the press and the public understand the process that has been carried out to reach a decision, not just the decision itself.
My recent practical experience in local government, in an area of economic development, makes me believe that this is the right thing to do. Open decision-making is good decision-making; closed decision-making is bad decision-making, on the whole. It is really important for the press and the public to be able to understand both the decision and the process of how their taxes are spent—to know how decisions are made to improve their area. It is for those reasons, both the practical ones based on what I saw in Sheffield and to take freedom of information one step further, that it is really important that people can understand the advice given to and the process followed by politicians, the mayor or the combined authority to enable them to come to a decision.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, we are fully committed to openness and transparency in the proceedings of local government, combined authorities and mayoral combined authorities. We would draw the line so that the same rules operated as for local government currently. We would have reservations about taking it back beyond that—certainly taking it into the area of advice.
That raises a question; I do not know whether the Minister can help us with it. When there are discussions and negotiations about devolution deals, are they in the public domain?
Cities and Local Government Devolution Bill [HL]
Debate between Lord Scriven and Lord McKenzie of Luton
Lord Scriven
I understand what the noble Lord says, but the Bill says that when there is disagreement you would be pushing for unitary authorities or an authority—one or more—in an area where that might not be needed. That is what Amendment 44L would dictate would happen if there was no agreement. It could be one unitary or two or three unitary authorities within the area. The principle of having an amendment that forces unitary authorities on areas that do not want them is not in the spirit of how I see devolution.
Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab)
My Lords, we have Amendments 44G and 45A in this group, to which I shall speak first. Amendment 44G is an attempt to address in part the concerns expressed by the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee at paragraph 17 of its first report this Session. Again drawing attention to the wide powers in Clause 10, the committee states:
“We are not convinced that requiring the consent of the local authorities affected is by itself a sufficient control over the very wide powers conferred by clause 10. In our view the delegation is inappropriate without the exercise of the powers being made subject to similar constraints and protections as those which apply to the establishment of a combined authority under Part 6 of the 2009 Act”.
The amendment that we are talking about requires that when exercising the power under Clause 10 the Secretary of State must,
“reflect the identities and interests of local communities and to secure effective and convenient local government”.
It is difficult to see why the Government should object to any of that. Since then, and only today, just before the Committee met, we had the opportunity to see the Government’s reply to the committee’s deliberations, in which the Minister says that these regulations are not of themselves establishing new structures or governance arrangements but modifying where all the councils concerned consent to processes for merging authorities, creating unitary authorities and reducing the number of councillors to fast-track these processes. This is not a sufficient distinction to say that we should eschew the recognition that these processes should reflect the identities and interests of local government.
Amendment 45A is also addressed by the DPRR report and would remove the subsection that removes the denial of the hybrid procedure. We know that this is not unusual in legislation. Indeed, in the case of Ebbsfleet, for a limited period, with our reluctant agreement, it was instigated, but there is normally, surely, an alternative mandatory consultation process that is laid down as a substitute. That is what happened in the case of Ebbsfleet. Where is the process in that situation? On what basis is the hybrid instrument process, if applicable, to be denied if there is no alternative procedure on offer?
Amendment 44F, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, seems entirely reasonable to us, and the Minister may say whether it is necessary to provide specifically for this in legislation. Are not associate membership arrangements already in operation in certain circumstances?
Amendment 46A, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, in part mirrors an early amendment that we tabled. We have no great objection to the establishment of an independent commission to review and advise on the progress of devolution, but we need to be mindful of not creating another tier of bureaucracy and a process that might drive uniformity on these matters. My noble friend Lady Royall is right to focus on how devolution is working for communities and individuals. Putting decision-making and policy formation closer to communities and individuals and getting their engagement is one of the fundamental reasons for embarking on this process, or should be. Of course, it will be an evolving process and nowhere near complete in six months, although we need to give it impetus from the beginning.
As for the issues raised by my noble friend Lord Liddle, I fully understand the desire to have a single-tier or unitary authority. I know that in our own local case in Luton it has transformed the opportunity to deliver and join up services in the town. The difficulty that we face, whether it is a county council seeking unitary status or the reverse, is that just one council holding out and not agreeing negates the opportunity of Clause 10, but I say to my noble friend that it operates in two directions. If our noble friend Lady Hollis were here she would say in no uncertain terms that having the need for unanimity has destroyed the opportunity for Norwich to get unitary status.
I think I may have a way through this, and perhaps the Minister might comment. I am not sure that the provisions are still in operation, but about six years ago there were successful attempts to get unitary status for Exeter and Norwich. The enlightened Government of the day supported it, but unfortunately it was judicially reviewed, and when the coalition Government—the coalition of Liberal Democrats and Conservatives—came in they overturned the decision. There is a serious point here: there are big towns and significant cities, such as Cambridge, Norwich and Exeter, that believe that any decent economic analysis shows that they can deliver more effectively for their communities if they are part of a unitary authority. In a sense, my noble friend’s amendment to deny the need for unanimity would have its problem in one direction or the other.
I entirely accept the point that we would not want to leave it up to the Secretary of State in any unfettered way, but should we not be thinking perhaps of establishing some criteria such as those that were certainly applicable at that time, as I recall: an assessment of whether the cities involved could benefit from unitary status and whether it added value to their communities? Certainly, that was the initial assessment in the case of Norwich and Exeter. Perhaps revisiting some such criteria, if those procedures are not still around, might be worth while. I accept entirely that devolution to county regions is party policy, and heaven forfend that I should not support party policy. We can see the benefit of unitary status for counties, but it is a two-way street and it can have an impact in the other direction.
My noble friend referred to “tiny district councils” being largely powerless, but they are seemingly not so powerless when they can stop a unitary authority. However, we are not talking about tiny district councils; we are talking about significant district councils that are being denied the opportunity of unitary status and all that that could bring, just as it could to a unitary county council in Cumbria.