Procurement Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Scriven and Baroness Thornton

Committee stage
Monday 24th October 2022 Grand Committee

[Baroness Thornton (Lab)]

My Lords, I shall speak to Amendments 477A and 486A in my name. I thank my noble friend Lady Hayman, the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, and the noble Earl, Lord Devon, who is not able to be with us today, for their support.

The amendment addresses procurement investigations. It would add, at the end of line 28 on page 60,

“and the implementation of social value”.

It would require the new procurement investigations authority to be able to investigate the implementation of social value. There are regular reports of public bodies that have secured promised social-value outcomes from contractors—apprenticeships, jobs created, investment in local infrastructure and so on—but these are not delivered. As social value is weighted in tenders, organisations can win tenders to deliver social value but may not always deliver the social value that they have promised.

The amendment would give the new procurement investigations authority the ability to investigate whether public bodies were securing social-value commitments that had been promised and to be able to report on that to Parliament. Currently there is no part of government that is bound to collect information on the implementation of social value. Indeed, the Cabinet Office had started to do this for central government through the social value model, but that is not comprehensive. Social value is just as much value as financial value, and the new procurement investigations authority should take social value seriously. This would have the added benefit of increasing awareness of the importance of social value in the public sector.

Amendment 486A would add a new clause. Because social enterprises and small and medium-sized enterprises often complain about barriers to accessing contracts in the public sector, which this Committee has discussed at some length, the proposed new clause would seek to ensure that the new procurement investigations authority would have expertise from the social enterprise sector and the SME sector so that they could ensure that contracting authorities were carrying out procurement exercises in a way that was fair to the sector.

Despite the Government’s commitment to expanding the role of social enterprises, voluntary organisations and SMEs in winning public sector contracts, that has not taken place. Research by DCMS estimates that only 5% of contracts are being won by voluntary sector or social enterprise organisations. Only one in five pounds of public procurement, 21%, is going to SMEs despite a 33% target. The amendment would give the new procurement investigations authority the expertise to be able to investigate whether contracting authorities were doing what they could to help SMEs and social enterprises to win contracts fairly.

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

My Lords, I am glad to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, on the issues that she raises. When the Government and Whitehall look through the prism of public sector procurement, that tends to lead to a very centralist approach that is about value for money, not for the taxpayer but for government departments. Sometimes things are not exactly in line with each other. There are many areas up and down this country where social value could really be added to if the Government, through primary legislation, understood what social value was and therefore ensured that in the Bill, when every single public sector procurement body in the land was awarding and using criteria to judge a contract and a supplier’s tender, that became vital.

The second issue on that refers back to something I think my noble friend Lord Fox said earlier, although I was not in the Committee at the time. The definition of such issues regarding social value are vital, because social value means many things to many different people. It is not to put contractors into a straitjacket. They can still innovate as long as there is a definition and a framework of what social value means. It is vital that the Government understand that it needs to be there as a guide for contractors, not as a straitjacket.

Also based on what the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, said, the voices of the third sector, or the charity sector, and small to medium-sized enterprises need to be central to how procurement and social value are aligned within the Bill and public sector procurement. I remember being leader of Sheffield City Council. The thing that amazed me was the innovation and what happened if we brought the voice of the charity sector and small to medium-sized enterprises into how we were working. We did not call it social value then; it was to improve our place. It was place-based procurement at the time. They could change the dial completely about how procurement was done. We therefore had a view across the authority about how it was done based on some of the words, concepts and ideas that charities and small to medium-sized enterprises had. Those became a policy driver for procurement. It is therefore vital that the Government think carefully about the concept of social value, and what it means in the framework in the Bill, rather than just being loose words which many people define differently, or this will end up not having the maximum value in communities up and down the land.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Thornton (Lab)]

I might as well intervene now too, because the question I would really like to ask the Minister—and it is very nice to see her back in her place, as she was the Minister responsible for putting equal pay on the statute book, and I hope her progressive instincts there might be followed through in this piece of legislation—is about social value. How do we deliver social value if there is absolutely no way of examining it, monitoring it and enforcing where it is not being delivered?

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

Following on from what the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, has said, and from what the Minister said about how this could not be in the Bill because it is a policy initiative, the procurement objective in Clause 11(1)(b) is “maximising public benefit”, which is a policy issue. All the noble Baroness is trying to do is ensure that social value is looked at by the appropriate authorities. Actually, it is more defined and specific in law, because there is a social value Act but no public benefit Act. The Minister’s answer that it is just a policy issue really does not stack up.

Covid-19 Update

Debate between Lord Scriven and Baroness Thornton

Tuesday 18th May 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Thornton (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for being here to take this Statement. We keep meeting like this; it is over a year now. I wonder whether our relationship needs to move on.

The Covid variant first detected in India looks as though it has now seeded in 86 areas and is set to become the dominant strain in the UK within the next few days or weeks. Indeed, many experts think that it was a mistake for the Government to go ahead with the easing of lockdown restrictions implemented yesterday. I suppose that there must be increasing doubt about whether the further lifting of lockdown measures will be able to go ahead as planned next month. I will not ask the Minister to give any definitive answers on that because I absolutely accept that uncertainty is the name of the game. However, I quote one of the four tests that the Government set out for proceeding with the road map out of lockdown, which is if

“our assessment of the risks is not fundamentally changed by new Variants of Concern”—

in other words, if there are new variants of concern, that may be the issue. Is this still the case?

The Royal Statistical Society, which promotes the proper use of data, is concerned that the Government have failed to publish the information justifying their decision that stage 3 of lockdown easing should go ahead because the new variant threat has been met. Will the Government publish the framework for that decision and the data that fed into it so that people can be assured that the facts justify the policy? Can the Minister confirm reports in the Times that officials have drawn up plans for local lockdowns modelled on the tier 4 restrictions introduced last year, and that, under these measures, people will be advised to stay at home and non-essential shops and hospitality will be closed, if the new strain is not brought under control?

On Bolton and Bedford, I regret to say this, but it seemed that the Secretary of State reverted to a blame game yesterday, perhaps to deflect from the fact that the Government did not do enough to protect us from this new variant. He said that people infected by the new variant in hospitals in Bolton had refused or not taken up the vaccine and had chosen not to take the jab. I felt that was very unfair.

My honourable friend the MP for Bolton, Yasmin Qureshi, says that the vaccine is not easily accessible to some of the poorer and BAME communities in Bolton: for example, some people have to take three buses to get to the vaccine centre in the centre of the town. If you are not mobile and do not have flexibility in your working hours, or are a key worker and have caring responsibilities in a multigenerational household, you are not refusing the vaccine if you cannot get to it.

Turning to Bedford, the Secretary of State, Matt Hancock, has said that Bedford is now to be among the areas given surge testing, as the borough recorded the second highest rates of Covid-19 infection in the country, and that cases were doubling every five days. This comes after the MP, the mayor and the health chiefs all called on the Government to act quickly to prevent further spread of the variant in Bedford. For days they have felt ignored. They have felt that the Government wanted to recognise the new variant as a northern problem, which clearly is not the case because it is in Bedford. My honourable friend Mohammad Yasin MP said that, after a fair bit of dither and delay, he welcomes surge testing in Bedford.

Can the Minister tell us whether it is true that Bedford has no access to the Pfizer vaccine at the moment? This must limit a comprehensive vaccine campaign in that town; you cannot do a comprehensive vaccine campaign, especially if you are dealing with the under-40s, if you do not have two or three of the vaccines that are available. I am aware also that reports of many people choosing to delay their jab were about concerns over side effects and whether they would be available for work or might struggle to manage their responsibilities. So the Government must give resourcing and support on these issues and improve the flexibility, information and understanding at a local level.

The Minister is also aware that achieving the truly remarkable vaccine take-up among adults will still leave 20% of the wider population—our children—unvaccinated, meaning of course that the virus can still spread. So can he update the House on any plans to vaccinate the under-18s? It also remains unclear for how long vaccines prevent Covid-19. Initial studies suggest that it may be six months, or possibly longer. Well, those who were vaccinated in December are rapidly approaching that. So we need to know whether there will be declining protection from Covid and what assessment the Minister has made of this risk. Can he update the House on plans to roll out booster shots this autumn?

Finally, at this critical time when we need to work internationally, why are we the only G7 nation cutting our aid budget? How can the Government defend cutting our contribution to vital science and research projects? Given the Government’s total silence on President Biden’s support for the temporary lifting of patent protections to increase vaccine production, should we assume that the British Government do not agree with the President?

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

My Lords, I too thank the Minister for coming before the House to deal with this Statement, and also for his work ethic in dealing with Covid-19 over the last 14 months.

From these Benches, we have always said that we will support whatever is proportionate and follows evidence to keep people safe. The more that you delve into the Government’s reason for not including India on the red list at the same time as Pakistan and Bangladesh, the more it feels like a big ball of candyfloss that initially seems tempting but disintegrates on touch. Yesterday, both the Minister and the Secretary of State said that India was not put on the red list at the same time as Pakistan and Bangladesh because of the positivity rate.

Looking at the figures for the two weeks before Bangladesh and Pakistan were put on the red list, the positivity rate for India was 5.1%. For Pakistan, it was slightly higher at 6.2%, yet for Bangladesh it was lower, at 3.7%. The same data—the Government’s test and trace data—shows that in the same two-week period, 50% of all new variants entering the UK, including those of concern, were from India: the largest country by far. Therefore, variants of concern and positivity rates show India to be on a par with, or ahead of, Bangladesh and Pakistan. So what data were the Government actually using, if it was not their own test and trace data? Can the Minister place on the record that data and the raw data which made him, and the Secretary of State, say that India’s positivity rate was three times higher?

Another area of concern is people entering the UK being huddled together at the border with people entering from red-list countries. One needs only to look at the significant Twitter feeds from yesterday of people arriving from green or amber countries, who were spending up to four hours in queues to get over the UK border and having to stand next to and mingle with people entering from red-list countries. Heathrow and Manchester Airports were responding that, despite asking the Government for more border staff to deal with the issue, none had been forthcoming.

This was planned. We knew that international travel was allowed and the Government knew that the traffic-light system was being introduced, so why have the Government not carried out the wishes of the airport operators to ensure that more border staff and more guidance are available to segregate those entering from red-list countries? This is a clear public health crisis at our border, and the Government have not, to date, solved it. So, as a matter of urgency, when will this public health breach right at our borders be solved?

Finally, as variants of concern continue to enter the country and replicate at speed, “isolate, isolate, isolate” becomes vital. Yesterday, the Secretary of State in another place indicated to Munira Wilson MP that the Government were worried that isolation might not be as robust as required, and that some pilots were taking place. Can the Minister outline where they are, what the parameters of the pilots are and when the results will be made public? Also, overwhelming evidence now shows that people on lower salaries must be paid their full wages and given support to ensure that they can comply with full isolation requirements. Will the Government now look at this as a matter of urgency?

Ockenden Review

Debate between Lord Scriven and Baroness Thornton

Monday 14th December 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Thornton (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I first declare an interest as a non-executive director for a London hospital trust. I thank the Minister for the debate today. This is a harrowing report, and the latest in a series of reports over recent years. It follows on the heels of the Morecambe Bay report, and we know that the East Kent report was launched earlier this year to investigate 54 babies dying between 2014 and 2019.

I first congratulate Donna Ockenden on this interim report. As she rightly says in her letter to the Secretary of State,

“we want to bring to your attention actions which we believe need to be urgently implemented to improve the safety of maternity services at The Shrewsbury and Telford Hospital NHS Trust as well as learning that we recommend be shared and acted upon by maternity services across England.”

The scale of the findings in this interim report is distressing in the extreme. The relentless campaign of parents Rhiannon Davies and Richard Stanton, and Kayleigh and Colin Griffiths, must be recognised, and we must pay tribute to and thank them. At a time of greatest grief—the loss of a baby—they have done something vital to ensure that other parents do not suffer the losses they have.

Babies suffered fatal skull fractures from forceps use; women were left screaming in agony for hours; infants developed long-term disabilities as a result of terrible maternity care. There were baby deaths, high maternal deaths, and a catalogue of incompetence, neglect and cruelty. There was failure to handle high-risk cases correctly, an overzealous pursuit of natural, vaginal births leading to a reluctance to perform caesarean sections, and inadequate consultant supervision. Struggling mothers were mocked and called lazy. Mothers were blamed for their baby’s death. Parents were not listened to; legitimate questions were not responded to and blocked; responsibility was not taken.

There was poor assessment of risk and no discussion of risks with mothers. Practice in assessing ongoing risk was poor. Escalating problems were spotted too late, leading to delay in transfer to hospital and death. There was poor ability to spot the refusal to acknowledge. Escalation was seen by midwives as a slight on their ability, not a prudent response to risk. As bad was the internal culture which allowed this to carry on without proper, effective management or regulatory oversight. There were adversarial attitudes between doctors and midwives. Perhaps the Royal Colleges need to talk to each other about the lack of mutual respect for their particular expertise and experience, and the value placed on these.

This is an interim report because Ockenden is rightly concerned that change needs to start immediately. One hopes that it has already been happening in the trust, rather than waiting for the full report and for the Government to take time to consider it. That might literally cost lives. It might mean more babies suffering damage, which means disability for the whole of their lives. This concerns not only deaths but sometimes severe disabilities, which cause huge suffering for the child and have a huge impact on and cost for their families and, indeed, for the state.

It is now clear that the Ockenden review will be far larger and take far longer than was originally intended. Can the Minister assure the House that the review has the resources necessary to complete the final report as soon as possible? There are seven immediate and essential actions outlined in this interim report. What progress is being made to implement these recommendations? What actions is NHS England taking to implement these interim recommendations across England? The turnover of leadership at board and officer level in this trust was surely a warning sign that something was amiss. Why was there not earlier support and intervention by NHS England? I know how appointments are made at senior level; they have to be signed off by NHS England. It must have known. What happened? One needs to ask the same questions of the CQC, both in terms of leadership instability at the trust and why the glaringly obvious warning signs of infant and maternal death were not acted upon sooner.

More broadly, can the Minister explain what action is being taken to ensure that there are enough staff in all maternity units? Perhaps the Government can, this time, commit to legislating for safer staffing levels. What is being done to tackle the current estimated 3,000 midwife vacancies?

Finally, for the vast majority of us who give birth in NHS hospitals, it is a wonderful experience, and a very safe one. We want that to be available to all women.

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

I declare an interest, as my husband is a medical director for NHS England, but not in the region where this hospital is located.

From these Benches, I want to start by sending our heartfelt love and admiration—as, I am sure, do many across the House—to those parents and families who will have an empty place in their home this Christmas, due to the poor care they received at Shrewsbury and Telford Hospital NHS Trust maternity services. This report is distressing and shocking to read. It is hard to comprehend that it describes a care system in this country, in this century. It describes everything from the lack of basic things like human empathy, compassion and support, to poor medical practice and lack of carrying out best practice and adhering to agreed professional standards. This has led to grief, long-term disability, lifelong complications and the unnecessary deaths of newborn children and mothers.

This is not the first case of poor practice in maternity care that has come to light after brave families and parents have refused to be cowed and silenced. Morecombe Bay should have been a wake-up call for ensuring that systematic, integrated changes took place. It is clear that cultural and systematic change at scale and in depth has not happened, despite previous warnings. The healthcare regulator this year reported that four out of 10 maternity services do not meet the safety threshold of care. I ask the Minister why, in 2020, that is an acceptable statistic.

In 2017, the £8.1 million national maternity training fund was withdrawn. Does the Minister now, in hindsight, regret this, and will he seek to re-establish this fund urgently? Will the Minister inform the House who is responsible—politically and managerially—within NHS England for ensuring that, this time, the changes highlighted are implemented, particularly in the seven areas seen to be urgent? What is the timetable for implementing the seven immediate and essential actions required across the NHS? What resources will be allocated to implement the 27 local and 7 immediate and essential actions required?

This must not be another report that gets sympathetic words from those with political and managerial responsibility but then ends up on a shelf gathering dust. That is why the Minister needs to outline a timetable for implementation, what resources will be allocated and who, ultimately, is accountable for ensuring that the systematic, deep changes happen, so that no family has to deal with the kind of grief and trauma that so many families in this report have had to deal with.

Covid-19: South Yorkshire

Debate between Lord Scriven and Baroness Thornton

Thursday 22nd October 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Thornton (Lab)]

My Lords, the last few days have been very unfortunate. Arrogance, spitefulness and divisiveness seem to be the characteristics of the Government’s approach to attempting to control the Covid infection these days. If I were being charitable, I might say that this is a product of panic and not actually knowing what to do next. If I were being less charitable, I would say that it is a characteristic of order by diktat, punishing and humiliating—or trying to—those who will not do as they are told when championing their communities. Thus, instead of dividing communities and bargaining with people’s jobs, there needs to be a one-nation approach to bring this country together, get control of the virus and protect the NHS. We have not seen that this week.

The Mayor of Greater Manchester said that he felt that the Government were

“playing poker with places and people’s lives through a pandemic”.

He asked what that is about. Is that the politics of the Prime Minister, Mr Cummings and the Cabinet?

To underline what we are facing, on Tuesday, the number of UK deaths rose by 241—the highest daily reported rise since the first wave of the pandemic. Noble Lords might remember the ridicule Patrick Vallance suffered when his chart suggested that an unchecked virus would lead to 200 deaths a day by mid-November; we are in mid-October and we are at 241. Similarly scary were Jonathan Van-Tam’s charts showing rising hospitalisation of the over-60s and the NHS medical director Stephen Powis saying that, on Wednesday, Liverpool hospitals will have as many Covid patients as they did at the height of the pandemic in April, and that Manchester hospitals will face the same record in two weeks’ time.

If I might be political about this, I remind the Minister that many of the new MPs from those seats on which the Government’s majority depends are learning the hard way what they signed up for: a great deal more than an oven-ready Brexit and quite the opposite of levelling up. They will have to go to their communities and justify: what the Government are doing and not doing; why children might not be properly fed over the winter months; why there will be a huge unemployment rate and businesses going to the wall; and, indeed, why the Covid infection rate is not responding to the sacrifices already being made in South Yorkshire, Manchester and other places in the north and the Midlands.

I will repeat some of the questions put in the Commons by my right honourable friend the leader of the Labour Party; perhaps I might get more coherent responses than he achieved. He asked,

“how does an area which goes into tier 3 restrictions get out of those restrictions? … If the infection rate, R, in a tier 3 area has not come below 1, will it be possible in any circumstances for that area to come out of tier 3”?—[Official Report, Commons, 21/10/20; col. 1053.]

If the criteria is not the R rate being under one, what is the criteria for moving from one tier to another? Millions of people need to know the answer to that question; millions of them are in tier 3 and millions are more likely to go into tier 3.

Last Friday, the Chief Scientific Officer said that tier 3 on its own would certainly not be enough to get the R rate below one but, on the same day, the Prime Minister said that there was only one chance of getting the infection rate down. So I repeat my right honourable friend’s question: which is it? Let us try to find some clarification on the confusion. There is still no clarity about how any local area gets out of tier 3 restrictions, nor any guarantees that communities will get the funding that they need to save jobs and businesses. I hope that they will but I am not sure that they will.

Sheffield went into tier 2 restrictions a week last Wednesday. Did Ministers make the wrong judgment a week ago or has new evidence that was not apparent then come to light, because it has now been put into tier 3? How many other areas in tier 2, such as those that neighbour South Yorkshire—including Bradford, my hometown, North East Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire —face the same fate as Sheffield? Can the Minister tell us how long South Yorkshire will be in this tier 3 lockdown? I repeat again: does the nationwide R number need to fall below one? What happens if Doncaster gets below one? Will it be able to leave lockdown?

Finally, I turn to shielding because it was suspended a few months ago, as noble Lords might recall. As we move into tier 3 and while all the science seems to suggest that the infection rate is creeping up the age groups, what will happen to shielding? Dr Stephen Griffin, associate professor in the School of Medicine at the University of Leeds, said:

“Critically, I am aghast that shielding remains paused. Whilst it saddens me to see that this is once again our only recourse to protect those most vulnerable to COVID, they must be enabled both socially and financially to protect themselves once more. Whatever transpires as a result of policy, it must be accompanied by a return to the commitments made earlier this year. Most importantly, testing”


has to work properly. His comments came after the Deputy Chief Medical Officer, Jonathan Van-Tam, expressed his concern for the rate of change in infections among the over-60s across the nation.

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

My Lords, I declare my interests as a resident of Sheffield and, knowing the area well, as a former leader of Sheffield City Council. I note that I will not be the only former leader of Sheffield City Council who will speak on this Statement; unusually, we will probably both agree with each other again.

We have to remind ourselves that going into any of these tiers, particularly very high, and a blanket lockdown is a failure of one thing: an effective test, trace and isolate system. Countries that have that do not have to have blanket lockdowns; it is absolutely vital that the Government understand that.

There is beginning to be a feeling of a north/south divide on this. It is ironic that Greater Manchester has not had any extra support for jobs when it has been in the equivalent of tier 2 for quite a few months. It is telling that, just a couple of days after London goes into tier 2, suddenly the Chancellor is on his feet talking about a tier 2 system for extra job support.

Having spoken to a number of people in South Yorkshire over the last 24 hours, let me tell you what the feeling is: anxiety, fear and uncertainty. I have spoken to people in tears, who have a business and who just do not understand why they are asked to do things. I reiterate the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton: you cannot plan a business or your life if you have no idea of the criteria and the trigger points for being released from tier 3. This cannot be left to a number of suits in an office, deciding the livelihoods and the businesses of many areas. What are the criteria and the trigger points for release and for going into a certain tier—not just tier 3? They need to be public, not the private judgments of people in a private meeting.

Also, why is the support package per head and not more nuanced? The support package for people in Sheffield is £29 per head—£30 million for business and £11 million for public health—but why is it a flat rate? When we know that older people, BAME communities and deprived people are more affected, why is there not a weighting in an area for those particular issues? They are the ones who will be greatly affected and more spending will be needed. Again, why is the business support package per capita? Why is it not based on the number and type of businesses that will be affected? Why does the formula seem so out of sync with what local areas will need to do?

I am pleased that there is support, at only £8 per head, for public health, which includes a local test, trace and isolate system. From this support, apart from money, what extra resources and expertise will local areas in South Yorkshire be able to call on to implement an effective localised test, trace and isolate system? We want to do our bit in South Yorkshire but we want to see fairness and a package that will minimise the effect of this high-level rate on both businesses and people.

Covid-19 Update

Debate between Lord Scriven and Baroness Thornton

Monday 14th September 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Thornton (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for taking the Statement this afternoon. It was taken in the Commons on Thursday and enacted at one minute after midnight today. The order was laid about an hour ago, but I am not sure when we will be discussing it. Noble Lords might have noticed that we are not short of Covid-19 orders to discuss in the next two weeks. Perhaps the Minister can tell us when we might be discussing this one.

We are at a dangerous moment in the life of this horrible virus—one where we are being advised by SAGE that we need to bring down the rate of infection, which has increased alarmingly in the last week or so. Last week I asked the Minister about the R rate. I think we all understand that this has now gone up and might be as high as 1.7. Has a tipping point been reached?

Today, I want to ask about the alert level. Can the Minister confirm what assessment the Joint Biosecurity Centre has made of the risk? Have we moved to level 4? The Government have tightened restrictions on meeting in groups after a surge in infections prompted by these concerns, and we on these Benches absolutely support that. From today, it will be illegal for people in England to gather in groups of more than six.

It is the first time that the Prime Minister has imposed a nationwide lockdown measure since restrictions began to be eased in May. At a press briefing, he admitted that over time the rules “have become quite complicated and confusing”. Announcing the rule of six, he said, “We are responding, and we are simplifying and strengthening the rules, making them easier for everyone to understand.” Well, that remains to be seen.

The Chief Medical Officer has said that the number of cases has been increasing more rapidly. On 9 September, he said that, while the numbers among older people and children remained “flat”, in other age groups there were “rapid upticks”. Professor Sir Mark Walport, a member of the Government’s scientific advisory group, told BBC Radio 4’s “Today” programme that one might have to say that we are “on the edge of losing control”. He said that data suggested that, without action, Britain would be on a path “extremely similar” to that of France, where the numbers continue to rise.

Can the Minister advise the House how the Government arrived at the rule of six? Why not eight? Why not four? The Justice Secretary, Robert Buckland, said that another nationwide lockdown remains a “nuclear option”. Can the Minister outline what additional national restrictions the Government are considering to prevent a return to a full national lockdown? I have a few questions on this.

The Government say that they will “boost the local enforcement capacity of local authorities by introducing Covid-secure marshals to help ensure social distancing in town and city centres, and by setting up a register of environmental health officers that local authorities can draw upon for support.” If the new restrictions are dependent on Covid-secure marshals employed by local councils’ public health departments, how many does the Minister believe will be required, and how will they be funded?

Can the Minister confirm whether and at what age children are included in the six? It seems that different countries have different ideas about this. In England it seems that a child under 12 is included in the six, but in other countries that is not the case. Why have we taken a different line on that?

I gather that sports are exempt from this, but can the Minister confirm that that includes shooting and hunting and that they are exempt from the ban?

This morning I received a copy of a letter to the Home Secretary from the leader of Hammersmith Council. I feel that I need to raise this because it is important that the Minister is aware that there is a Covid-19 outbreak among asylum seekers placed in a hotel in Hammersmith and Fulham. The council has been misinformed by the Home Office people dealing with this and that has led to an outbreak. Last week I was talking about a dissonance between the Department for Education and the Department of Health in terms of information that has been used to try to control Covid. Today I am saying that it looks as if there is a dissonance between the Home Office and the Department of Health. In this case, that will feed directly into the spreading of the virus, so it is a matter of some urgency for the Government and I draw it to the attention of the Minister.

Bolton remains the place in England with the highest rates of coronavirus infections, with the equivalent of 192 new cases per 100,000 people. That increase comes despite the Government implementing even tougher lockdown restrictions for the town, including a strict curfew for bars and restaurants. What is the next step? Are the Government considering closing pubs and restaurants?

We have mingling on public transport and in offices and restaurants and pubs. All these are factors where infections can happen and spread, so what plans do the Government have to review the back-to-work advice?

I have to talk about the availability of tests. There is an increasing number of people reporting problems, people still being referred to Aberdeen from 400 miles away and test centres still empty or not being used because tests cannot be processed. Please can the Minister own that there is a problem here, explain what the challenges are and tell the House how and when they will be resolved?

Finally, I want to highlight that the key to preventing mass outbreaks in care homes was the availability of testing for those homes. So how many care-home tests have not been processed in the last week or so? That seems to be vital. Care home providers are reporting a slight rise in care home infections, and we cannot possibly face a repeat of what happened during the last spike of the pandemic in our care homes.

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

My Lords, these Benches welcome anything from the Government that is based on rational evidence and can prove to be effective in this public health crisis to keep people safe and reduce the spread of the virus. So does this Statement live up to that? Unfortunately, yet again the sales pitch from the Secretary of State last week fell short of what is required to be effective. It has to be based on fact and scientific evidence that the public have confidence in and understand.

I have some simple questions for the Minister. Now that the scientific evidence has been produced, members of the public are asking why children under 12 and 11 are included as part of the six. Why can they be in a school in a class of 30 but from 3.30 pm they cannot be in a house with seven people, including their two grandparents? What scientific evidence exists to suggest that that causes more harm than 30 children in a classroom?

There is something else that people have asked me. Why is it that I can go to the office and be there with 20 people until 4 pm, but at 4.15 pm, if I go to the pub, I have to be in a bubble of no more than six? The evidence may be there, but it has to be explained in a way that those questions can be answered and the public have confidence in those answers. Inconsistency, rather than the public not having confidence, is one of the issues that the virus breeds on.

The public health message has to be clear and consistent. The regulations do not just bring in a power of six; there are quite a number of exemptions, including a legal definition of “mingle”: for the first time since 1393 it becomes illegal to “mingle”. Can the Minister give a legal definition of “mingling”? I can go to an event with six people but I cannot mingle beyond those six if it is an event run by a charity, a public body, a philanthropic organisation or a business. If I open the door for somebody and speak to them to thank them, am I mingling? If I stop somebody who I know and speak to them, am I mingling? What is the legal definition? That is going to cause confusion and not be consistent.

These regulations and rules have to be developed in a collaborative manner with local areas to be effective. Why was the Local Government Association informed of the Covid-secure marshals only one hour before? If the rate is rising so fast and we need to be effective today to monitor six people and no more, where are those marshals’ powers as of today and in which legislation?

It is quite clear that action needs to be taken to stop this virus, but it is time for the Government to stop and be much more strategic and considered and to implement legislation and systems in a more collaborative way. People’s lives and livelihoods depend on the Government getting this right, but unfortunately this Statement is not a complete and right answer.

Coronavirus Bill

Debate between Lord Scriven and Baroness Thornton

Committee stage & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 25th March 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Thornton (Lab)]

My Lords, the amendment would ensure that the impact of Schedule 12, which concerns local authority care and support, is subject to monitoring and review by an appropriate body. The amendment is about the voice of the people affected by Schedule 12 being heard in the process of the Government reviewing whether the system is working and whether they will keep it in place.

We on these Benches believe that that should be done by an independent body or organisation—that is, an independent voice that is not the Government or one of their organisations. The reason is that we know that this schedule will have an enormous impact on our social care systems. Given that those systems have already suffered a crisis in funding and resources—and will also be taking in volunteers to help—this is an important moment.

It is important for two groups of people in particular. Yesterday, I was struck by the remarks of the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson; as I said then, she made me realise that the impact of this Bill on the disabled is profound indeed. There are two groups that need to be represented and whose voices need to be heard. One is the elderly and housebound; for them, an organisation such as Age UK, or something similar, may be appropriate. The other is the disabled. Both groups of people will be physically and mentally affected by the schedule, but the disabled are a particular cause for concern because this is also about their rights. I gave the Minister notice of the fact that we want those rights to be suspended for a shorter period.

This amendment is about finding a way for affected people in those groups to have a voice. We all need to be very disciplined in this part of the journey through the Bill so I do not intend to speak for much longer; but I would like to say how impressed I am by the way that Age UK has been approaching this crisis, which, of course, has enormous implications for the people it seeks to champion, represent and campaign for. Age UK’s chief executive Steph Harland said:

“Before this crisis began, we were already very concerned about the large numbers of older people who were disadvantaged and isolated. The reality is we’re not at the toughest point of this crisis yet, and it’s difficult to predict what that will mean for us as individuals, our charity, and the older people who rely on us and our partners across the country. What we know with certainty is it will get far more difficult than it is today and older people’s needs will sky-rocket.”


She is quite right. This amendment makes the point that that voice needs to be heard, and the Government need to listen to it as part of their monitoring. I beg to move.

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

My Lords, my Amendment 2 is also in this group and I want to speak briefly to it. I start by drawing the attention of the House to my interest as a vice-president of the Local Government Association. Amendment 2 is a probing amendment—a very friendly one, as I hope the Minister understands—regarding something that I foresee.

It is clear from discussions with my local government colleagues across the country that there are a number of issues in respect of which local communities are turning to their local authority as the nearest the port of government, as they see it—one they recognise and have a relationship with. Some councils can deal with many of the things that people are turning to them for; others would like to but do not have the powers to do so. As this public health challenge becomes increasingly severe, the demands on local government will be immense. Local authority employees, who are doing a great job up and down the country, will not be immune from getting the coronavirus, which, as I said yesterday, will also affect services not related directly it, such as refuse collection or environmental health; or they may not have equipment such as lorries or vans to deal with issues.

They will need a general power of direction—some way to say to other organisations within their jurisdiction, “We can’t negotiate; we can’t plead with you. This is a crisis. We need you to act. We need to requisition certain items, personnel or services off you.” I ask the Minister this: if the Government cannot accept this amendment, what arrangements will be in place—or what regulations will come forward in a very speedy way—to enable local government to best deal with the issues that will inevitably come to rest on its shoulders?