Value Added Tax: Listed Places of Worship

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Tuesday 24th April 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

I am grateful to my noble friend for pointing out that there was an important meeting on this topic yesterday, led by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of London and my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. My understanding is that they had a very open and constructive discussion. The Chancellor made it clear that the £5 million which the Government have committed to the listed places of worship grant scheme in the Budget is on top of the £12 million which the scheme already had. We accept, having seen the churches’ numbers, that the VAT change will indeed be more than £5 million and that we need to commit more money, and discussions will continue next week to look at what the projected numbers and our commitment should be.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, does the Minister acknowledge that the VAT changes are particularly damaging to projects that are already under way? For example, for a project in Kingston, the church reckons that it may have to pay as much as £400,000 additional VAT as a result of this change, when it has already raised several million pounds. Can the Government, at the very least, give a commitment that schemes that are already under way and on which there has already been significant fundraising will not be disadvantaged by the more general proposals in the Budget?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I confirm that there are indeed transitional arrangements in place for approved alterations to listed buildings, which cover contracts in place before Budget day. Contracts in place on that day will retain the zero rate if the work is performed by 20 March 2013. Our consultation paper specifically asks for comments on whether the transitional period is sufficient. We will of course listen to any reasonable comments about these transitional arrangements and will consider whether any more generous arrangements could be implemented.

Economy: Quantitative Easing

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Monday 19th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, the estimate of the effect of QE was set out in the Bank’s Q3 quarterly bulletin in 2011. The Bank estimates that quantitative easing raised real GDP by around 1.5 to 2 percentage points, so it has had a very significant impact on the real economy. As to the flow of credit to SMEs, that is not the purpose of quantitative easing. The purpose of quantitative easing, as I have attempted to explain, is for the Bank of England to meet the 2 per cent medium-term inflation target. Credit easing is a government policy and, in the next few days, details of the £20 billion national loan guarantee scheme will be unveiled. It is targeted at credit easing for SMEs, which is still a very important issue.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, will the Minister underscore his last comment in that credit easing is now seen as crucially important in getting funding into SMEs? Can he confirm reports in the papers yesterday that the overall impact or scope of credit easing might not be the £20 billion which he has just mentioned but might increase over time to £40 billion?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I am certainly not going to pre-empt any announcements this week of that kind or any other, or I may not be here to answer the next Question at the Dispatch Box. I think that the £20 billion, which has already been announced, and reducing the interest rate that SMEs would otherwise have to pay by the order of 1 per cent would be a very good start.

EU: Economic and Financial Issues

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Monday 12th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

Well, I have not been asked the question in those terms before. It is for the eurozone members to bear the brunt of sorting out the eurozone. That is exactly what they are getting on with doing, which is why we welcome the fiscal compact intergovernmental treaty as a necessary step towards the remorseless logic that with currency union comes much closer fiscal union. We keep close to it. Meanwhile, we are working with many like-minded states on an ambitious pro-growth agenda, which is what Europe also desperately needs.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, the noble Lord mentioned ECOFIN, but tonight there is a meeting of the 17 Finance Ministers of the eurozone. Will the UK be represented at that meeting, which is discussing the size of the firewall, and if so, what line will it be taking?

[Lord Sassoon]

No, my Lords; the UK will not be represented at the euro group meeting later today because we are not in the euro group. On the other hand, there will be a debrief of Ministers before the formal ECOFIN starts at breakfast time tomorrow.

National Insurance

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Monday 5th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, first, a position in which youth unemployment is more than 1 million is not at all acceptable. While I am very happy to receive Budget submissions from wherever they come from around the House or outside the House, what is important here is that the Government have a clear strategy for dealing with the youth unemployment challenge. Only last November, we introduced the new youth contract, which becomes live on 2 April, with more than £940 million of funding going into it in the spending round. This youth contract will enable up to 500,000 young people to get into employment and education. The Government are actively on the case.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, the Minister will be aware that in the budgetary provisions already made for the forthcoming tax year, some £300 million has been made available by way of national insurance holidays for new companies employing new people. It is clear from experience to date that the Budget level will not be reached. Could that money be redirected beyond new companies employing additional staff either to existing small businesses employing additional staff or specifically to small businesses employing young people who are currently unemployed?

[Lord Sassoon]

Again, I am happy to hear the thoughts of my noble friend about what might be done. The national insurance holiday, which is estimated to be already supporting some 40,000 jobs in new firms, is only one part of the package to help small businesses: the reduction of the corporation tax rate, the extension of business rate relief for a further six months from 1 October this year onwards, the coming national loan guarantee scheme, as well as what the Government did with the above-indexation increase in national insurance thresholds. This is a significant package of which the holiday is only one element.

Government Resources and Accounts Act 2000 (Audit of Public Bodies) Order 2012

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Monday 27th February 2012 Grand Committee

[Lord Eatwell]

My Lords, I have no comments on this order.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, I am sorry to detain the Committee. A number of years ago I was an adviser to the School Food Trust and I should simply like to ask which of the two categories it falls into. I believe that it has become a private sector body rather than abolished. Both the Explanatory Memorandum and the Minister’s speech have failed to clarify into which of those two groupings it falls.

[Lord Sassoon]

I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, for giving me an easier time. I hope that this is a precedent he will follow on many occasions after this. In answer to my noble friend Lord Newby, the School Food Trust has been redesignated as of September 2011 by the ONS to the NPISH. In effect, it is removed from the public sector and has become a private-sector body. I can confirm that he is right in his supposition. There is no more that I need to say other than to commend this order to the Committee.

Budget Deficit

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Wednesday 15th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, economic growth has been weaker for reasons that include, particularly at the moment, the ongoing eurozone crisis. Inflation has been high but is now coming down significantly from its peak last September. In those circumstances, the automatic stabilisers apply and expenditure goes up. However, we are getting two very different messages from the party opposite, one implicitly urging faster consolidation and the other asking for more expenditure. Which is it to be? This Government will get borrowing down by £147 billion a year by 2016-17. That is what is important.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, on Monday, Moody’s said that the UK’s triple A rating could be downgraded by,

“reduced political commitment to fiscal consolidation, including discretionary fiscal loosening”.

Does the Minister have any idea what Moody’s might have had in mind?

[Lord Sassoon]

My noble friend probably thinks that Moody’s have in mind what I have in mind: the policies of Mr Ed Balls. However, the chances of those being implemented are, fortunately, small. Only yesterday, a respected City broker from BGC Partners said:

“Ed Balls can whinge all he likes but you only have to look at a compendium of 10 year bond yields to know that the UK Chancellor, George Osborne is on the right track. For the Chancellor to take his foot off the gas in terms of cutting the debt reduction would be insanity personified!”.

Eurozone Crisis

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Tuesday 17th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that if there is a collapse in the eurozone, it is highly likely that the IMF will be asked to play a larger role that it has done up to now? What is the Government’s thinking about making further resources available to the IMF in those circumstances?

[Lord Sassoon]

I am happy to try to clarify the Government’s position. It is very clear that the Government see the IMF’s role as supporting individual countries and not currencies. That has always been its role. If the IMF puts forward a case, as it may well do, for an increase in its resources, and if there is a strong case, the UK will support the IMF in increasing resources as required, as it has always done in the past.

Taxation: Inheritance Tax

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Wednesday 21st December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby]

The proposals in the Law Commission report, which is the subject of my noble friend’s Question, relate to intestacy, the most difficult period in people’s lives. In those circumstances, may I urge on the Minister and his colleagues to move more quickly than 12 months as this is a very technical and straightforward matter, not just in terms of giving a response, but also in terms of putting pressure on the Government collectively to legislate on this matter in the next Session?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I hear clearly what my noble friend says and I am sure that the Ministry of Justice will want to move faster, but I am just giving what the backstop date is.

Financial Restrictions (Iran) Order 2011

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Monday 12th December 2011 Grand Committee

[The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon)]

My Lords, this financial restrictions measure against the Iranian banking sector was introduced on 21 November by my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The Treasury laid the Financial Restrictions (Iran) Order 2011 before Parliament under its powers in Schedule 7 to the Counter-Terrorism Act 2008. The order contains restrictions requiring UK credit and financial institutions to cease business relationships and transactions with all banks incorporated in Iran, including their branches and subsidiaries wherever they are located, and with the Central Bank of Iran.

I would like to turn first to the rationale for the order. The restriction contained in the order responds to the risk to the national interests of the UK caused by activity in Iran that facilitates the development or production of nuclear weapons. The Government have had serious concerns about Iran’s nuclear activities for some time, and these concerns are shared by the international community. The 18 November board of governors report of the International Atomic Energy Agency, which is the UN body charged with monitoring Iran’s activities, provided further evidence that Iran’s nuclear programme was being used for non-civilian applications. In particular, the report sets out the IAEA’s concerns about,

“possible military dimensions to Iran’s nuclear programme”.

The case for UK action is underlined by the urgent call from the Financial Action Task Force—the FATF—which noted its particular and exceptional concern about Iran’s failure to address the risk of terrorist financing and the serious threat that this poses to the integrity of the international financial system. Other countries share our concerns in respect of Iran. These include the US and Canada, both of which implemented further restrictive measures against Iran on 21 November. The EU also has financial sanctions in place, including further asset-freezing measures against 180 Iranian individuals and entities agreed at the beginning of this month, and is considering future measures to implement.

The Government introduced the Financial Restrictions (Iran) Order 2011 to respond rapidly to further evidence of the risks posed by Iran’s nuclear development programme. Iranian banks play an important role in providing financial services to individuals and entities within Iran’s nuclear and ballistic missile programmes, and many Iranian banks have been sanctioned by the UN and EU for their role in Iran’s proliferation-sensitive activities. Given the UK’s important position as a global financial centre, the UK restrictions will have a major impact on the options available to Iranian banks. This will make it more difficult for Iranian banks to use the international financial system in support of proliferation-sensitive activities. The action also protects the UK financial sector from the risk of unwittingly being used to facilitate activities which support Iran’s nuclear and ballistic missile programmes.

I will now explain the specifics of the order. The order was made under Schedule 7 to the Counter-Terrorism Act 2008, which provides the Treasury with powers to impose a range of financial restrictions in response to certain risks to the UK’s national interests. The powers enable the Treasury to respond to proliferation risks, as we have in this case, and to money-laundering and terrorist financing risks, or where the FATF calls for countermeasures.

Shortly after the restrictions came into effect on 21 November, the Treasury published a series of documents on its public website. These alerted the financial sector to the restrictions and provided guidance on their implementation. These documents were also e-mailed to more than 13,000 subscribers to our e-mail alert system.

In addition, the Treasury worked with the Financial Services Authority, HM Revenue and Customs, and the Export Control Organisation to publicise the restrictions and provide information to firms on the requirements. The documents published by the Treasury on 21 November included six general licences exempting specific activities from the restrictions. These general licences enable credit and financial institutions with existing business relationships or transactions with the entities concerned to manage the cessation of business in an orderly way. They permit them to provide financial services for humanitarian purposes and personal remittances between individuals here and in Iran.

Further licences, whether general or individual, may be granted by the Treasury to manage the impact of the requirements on third parties. Companies affected by the restrictions can apply for a licence of exemption and we are particularly minded to grant licences where UK companies are owed money under existing contracts. This approach is similar to that used in other sanctions.

Firms already have in place procedures and systems to meet obligations relating to financial sanctions and anti-money laundering. They help to minimise the burden of complying with these restrictions. It is expected that compliance costs for the sector as a whole will be moderate, although any institution with significant business relationships with an Iranian bank will face larger costs. Supervision of the financial sector’s compliance with these restrictions will form part of the existing supervisory regime of the Financial Services Authority, HM Revenue and Customs, the Office of Fair Trading and the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment Northern Ireland.

Let me conclude by emphasising that this order was issued by the Government to respond to the severe risk that Iran’s nuclear activities posed to the UK’s national interests. This is a strong measure, but it is necessary. Iran’s proliferation-sensitive activities are a serious and ongoing concern for the UK and the international community as a whole. It is vital that we continue to take steps to increase pressure on the Iranian regime and to encourage Iran back to the negotiating table to find a diplomatic solution. For these reasons, I commend the order to the Committee.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for the clear introduction that he has given to this measure which seems, broadly speaking, to be proportionate. I have just one question. To what extent will Iranian banks be able to continue doing business here direct with companies as opposed to with UK financial sector bodies? I think that the Minister said that they will be able do that. If so, have the Government given any consideration to freezing the operations of Iranian banks so that they simply cannot do any business out of the UK?

Open-Ended Investment Companies (Amendment) Regulations 2011

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Monday 12th December 2011 Grand Committee

[The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon)]

My Lords, these regulations amend the Open-Ended Investment Companies Regulations 2001 to introduce a protected cell regime for open-ended investment companies, or OEICs. They will ensure the segregation of liabilities of different sub-funds held under the same OEIC umbrella company so that investors in one sub-fund will not be liable to creditors in the event of another sub-fund failing.

I would like first to give a little background on why this legislation is needed. Open-ended investment companies are one of two major forms of pooled investment fund. UK regulations for OEICs were first approved by Parliament in 1996 to help UK fund managers compete more effectively in the European market. Collectively, there is around £580 billion in UK-domiciled funds and the work needed to administer those funds brings jobs to a number of parts of the UK, including outside the UK’s traditional fund management centres of London and Edinburgh.

Large fund managers generally operate a small number of OEIC umbrella companies with a large number of sub-funds within each umbrella, allowing them to operate a large range of funds more efficiently. The sub-funds, or cells, do not have a separate legal personality but are separately managed, charged, accounted for and assessed for tax. Under current UK law, there is no segregation of liabilities between sub-funds, so creditors of one sub-fund could have a claim on the assets of another sub-fund. While using multiple separate OEICs instead of sub-funds within a single OEIC would protect investors from this risk, it would make operations less efficient and add significant cost to end-users. In practice, the likelihood of creditors having a claim is small, both because OEICs must comply with borrowing limits imposed by the FSA and because feedback from the industry suggests that most credit agreements stipulate segregated liability. However, because this risk has never crystallised, it is not certain how these stipulations would be treated by the courts.

This legislation increases consumer protection and, by doing so, improves the competitiveness of the UK as a domicile for funds. Investors increasingly require segregated liability to address the small risk present in umbrella structures. Managers seeking to domicile their funds in the UK need to be able to offer this based on a statutory provision. This legislation does just that. It removes the risk of contagion by providing an effective ring-fencing of a sub-fund’s assets from the other sub-funds and the umbrella itself. The Government are introducing the regime to ensure that the UK can continue to compete with other jurisdictions that already operate protected cell regimes. Failure to introduce the legislation would risk funds being unwilling to domicile here.

In deciding how to implement this legislation, the Government have been mindful that, despite the undoubted benefits, there are some potential costs to operators in converting from their existing arrangements. We have, therefore, provided for a general two-year transition period, which may, at the FSA’s discretion, be extended for a further year. During this period, existing OEICs cannot enter into any new contract that is not subject to a protected cell regime unless that contract is subject to an existing master agreement which governs the terms of all contracts entered into under it. This should allow firms ample time to convert the necessary contracts, many of which will have come up for renewal in any case. For operators establishing new OEICs, the costs introduced by this legislation are negligible, so they are required to comply immediately with the new regime.

The Government’s Plan For Growth, published alongside the March Budget, also announced a moratorium on new domestic regulation for microbusinesses—firms employing nine staff or fewer—for a period of three years. The protected cells legislation complies with this announcement. Microbusinesses will be fully exempt from the legislation’s requirements for a period of three years. However, early indications are that they may seek to comply with the legislation earlier, given the benefits it brings.

The UK fund management industry has been calling strongly for a statutory protected cells regime and has warmly welcomed news of its introduction. The industry has worked closely with the Government to get the regulations right and they will bring considerable benefits to investors in UK funds and increase the competitiveness of UK industry. I hope that noble Lords will give their support to the regulations today. I beg to move.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, this is a fascinating example of the industry asking for regulation that the FSA seems to have been slow to introduce. This is an almost unique experience for the sector, which is normally grumbling that there is too much regulation.

I am intrigued that it is being introduced here purely under domestic legislation rather than within the ambit of any EU cover, and I wonder whether there is any prospect of OEICs, in this regard, being the subject of any of the many EU directives that are currently on their way down the track or being discussed. I note that, at the moment, the jurisdictions that already have this additional regulation are a mixed bag and include Jersey, Ireland and Luxembourg. I find it slightly surprising that it has taken some time for both the UK industry and the Government to get round to implementing this legislation, given that its benefit is that it will improve the competitive position of OEICs in the UK. It seems extremely sensible. I want to confirm what I think the Minister said: that there is no suggestion that this is being introduced because there has been any difficulty with any existing OEICs. Is it purely as a pro-competitive rather than as an anti-competitive measure?

[Lord Tunnicliffe]

My Lords, I make it clear from the outset that we support this order. I am looking forward to the Minister’s answer to the noble Lord’s questions about how the regulations fit in with the EU—questions which are particularly apposite at this moment. I will content myself with a few comments on the impact assessment and two or three questions.

The impact assessment is absolutely fascinating. From my reading of it—and I am happy to be corrected here—the net benefit of the regulations will be between £18 million and £360 million, which is a pretty wide range that will involve lots of sums to prove that. The only point that I feel I can take from the impact assessment is that, in all credible scenarios, the introduction of a protected cell regime will be favourable, and I think that we can all be satisfied with that.

I have just a few questions. First, new Regulation 11A(4) provides for an exception, which is referred to in the Explanatory Note. However, for myself I cannot quite see what sorts of transactions or assets the exception refers to. Like all exceptions, one is always slightly worried that the exception ends up negating the intent of the order. I am sure that it does not, but I pose that question for assurance.

Secondly, as I understand it—once again, I could be wrong—there will be a period in which PCR products and non-PCR products will be on sale at the same time. I may have misunderstood that, but if I am right in that assumption, what actions are the Government taking to ensure that there is no confusion in the marketplace during that period of overlap? I will be happy if there is no period of overlap, but if there is one then it is important that we do not introduce confusion through these very sensible regulations.

Finally, I like reading impact assessments, which is a little burden that I have to carry. The wonderful thing about impact assessments is that I always sense that they are written by rather more junior people— I was going to say with rather less care, but care is perhaps the wrong term—as you get that little hint from things. On page 10, the impact assessment states:

“The UK fund regime has been viewed as less favourable by managers and investors for a number of reasons, with the lack of a PCR being one of them”.

Perhaps the Minister could enlighten us as to what other reasons exist and what, if anything, he is doing about them.

Economy: Government Policies

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Wednesday 7th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby]

On that exact point, my Lords, the IFS says that the £20 billion of additional funds from the pension funds looks to be,

“more of an ambition than a done deal”.

It adds that they,

“have little clarity as to what the nature of this potential additional spending might be”.

Is the Minister able to tell us, first, what priorities the Government have assigned to that potential additional expenditure; and secondly, when he hopes the benefits of that additional funding might come through?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, to repeat, the pension funds and also the insurance companies have come to Government and asked for our help. We have signed a memorandum of understanding to help them set up their vehicle as quickly as possible, because clearly they want to find an investment home for their money.

EU: Member States’ Budgets

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Tuesday 29th November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I very much doubt it. We are looking at the proposals for strengthening governance as they have been put on the table, and that is clearly what needs to be done. We should not rely on the auditors to sort out all our problems.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, if the eurozone’s Finance Ministers decide that they want limited treaty changes, will the Minister be prepared to go slightly beyond his earlier answer and confirm that the UK Government will not stand in the way of any treaty changes to bring greater discipline within the eurozone, because it is clearly in our national interest as much as theirs that new rules are put in place?

[Lord Sassoon]

I am of course prepared to go a bit further in answer to my noble friend’s question. If such treaty changes are put forward, the Government will look to advance the UK’s national interest at that point, as appropriate. Above all, that means protecting and safeguarding our essential economic interests, and we will seek to do that.

International Monetary Fund

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Thursday 24th November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, in answer to the first question, the position under the International Monetary Fund Act 1979 is that the limits agreed by Parliament currently stand at 38.8 billion SDRs, or about £38.3 billion. That is where the £40 billion figure comes from.

On the question of what the IMF is there to do, it is to look at the overall systemic risks in the world and support individual countries. It is not there to support countries in one particular zone as opposed to others or to support currencies. It is there to consider, under its criteria, country by country, where support might be needed.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, in view of the failure of the German authorities yesterday to auction off debt, do the Government believe that the time has now come for the development of a Eurobond to provide a long-term stable approach to raising funds for the whole of the eurozone?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, we are at risk of straying a bit far from the question about the IMF, but there are a number of serious points here. First, with respect to Germany or any other countries, one should not read too much into one particular bond sale that does not meet its target. That has happened to a number of countries over the years, including the UK. As for what the arrangements will be for the eurozone, we continue to wish that the eurozone makes as much progress as it can, as urgently as possible, to put the arrangements in place.

Economy: Monetary and Fiscal Policy

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Tuesday 8th November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, the Bank of England is completely sticking to its statutory responsibilities and to the letter setting out its monetary policy mandate. If the noble Lord, Lord Peston, would care to look at the latest commentaries in the Bank’s quarterly documents —he is nodding—he will see that they identify the risks to inflation on the undershooting rather than the overshooting side. They identify a number of factors that will reverse the trend in inflation early in 2012. That is why the Bank decided to recommend increased quantitative easing to the Treasury to ensure that there is no risk of an undershoot on the inflation target.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, does the Minister agree with the recent report of the Treasury Select Committee that, in a time of economic crisis, the buck stops with the Treasury, and that it should therefore be able to direct the Bank in such circumstances?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, it is completely the case that the Chancellor of the Exchequer sets the inflation target for the MPC. I am sure my noble friend is not suggesting that we should go back on the previous Government’s decision, which I applaud, to give the Bank of England independence in this area. Monetary policy should be the first line of defence in the face of economic shocks.

Eurozone Crisis

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Thursday 27th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby]

Reverting to a question raised by the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, and the IMF, the Chancellor very helpfully pointed out in the Statement:

“Let us remember that support for the IMF does not add to our debt or deficit, and that no one who has ever provided money to the IMF has ever lost that money”.

Why, therefore, does he go on to say,

“But the IMF cannot put its own resources in—it can only lend to countries with a programme for adjustment”,

not least because I thought all the countries that we were talking about had a programme for adjustment? I cannot see why the Government are so averse to involving the IMF, particularly given that the eurozone Ministers are very keen to work with the IMF. Secondly, I ask specifically about tax co-ordination. The European statement says:

“Pragmatic coordination of tax policies in the euro area is a necessary element of stronger economic policy coordination … Legislative work on the Commission proposals for a Common Consolidated Corporate Tax Base and for a Financial Transaction Tax is ongoing”.

The implication is that the eurozone countries are considering imposing those taxes themselves. Is it the Minister’s understanding that they will be in a position to impose those taxes and that common tax base—with the UK out, under the outs—and, if they did that, what would be the Government’s attitude towards it?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, first, I shall try to clear up what I think is a small confusion in relation to what the IMF can or cannot do under its own rules and what we would be prepared to be part of or not part of. Of course, the IMF is involved directly in the Greek package, as it is with two other packages within the eurozone. So three programmes out of the 53 in which the IMF is currently involved are indeed eurozone ones and that is perfectly proper and we support the IMF’s commitment in adjustment programmes of that kind. We would not support the IMF participating in some special purpose vehicle fund, but I do not believe that it has the ability to do that anyway and the UK certainly will not be involved in that. If China and other countries want to be involved, that is fine and that is their decision, but we will not be involved and we will not support any IMF involvement in that route. We will support the IMF's involvement in country adjustment programmes, such as it has done throughout its history. That is what the IMF is there for. There may be some confusion on that.

On tax co-ordination, first, the UK Government stick strictly to their position that we believe that taxation is, and should remain, a matter of national competency. It is up to the eurozone if it wants to propose some different arrangements within the eurozone consistent with the need for greater fiscal co-ordination in it. On the one specific proposal that has come forward so far—the financial transaction tax—first, we have said that there may be some basis for such a tax but only where it is globally applicable because if it is applied in Europe it will simply drive business away from Europe and, critically, away from the City of London, and that makes no sense. Secondly, in bringing forward that proposal the Commission was completely clear that the article under which it comes forward is one on which unanimity is required and therefore QMV could not force us into it.

Banking: Quantitative Easing

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Monday 10th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, we have a portfolio of banks which the Government either wholly or partly own. The Question was about Lloyds and RBS, but we also, as the noble Lord well knows, own Northern Rock and Bradford and Bingley. It is within the mandate of UKFI, which was set down by the previous Government, of whom the noble Lord was a member, to have responsibility to seek over time to realise value from the banks. That is precisely what it is exploring in the context of Northern Rock. It is following the noble Lord’s policy.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, given the downgrading by Moody's last week of the credit rating of a number of British banks, do the Government think that they will have to recapitalise RBS and Lloyds?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, the downgrading by Moody's last week was long expected by the markets. It is largely a reflection of the fact that under the Vickers proposals—the independent commission's proposals—there will be a different relationship between the banks and the taxpayer: the taxpayer will not be on the hook for the banking system in the way that it was. As a result, as expected, Moody's changed the ratings on a number of banks. Equally, it made it clear that that was not a reflection on the well capitalised state of the UK banking system. The UK banks continue, as Moody's and others have said, to be in a more robust state to withstand shocks from the eurozone than banks on the continent of Europe.

Economy: Capital Expenditure

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Tuesday 4th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

It will not surprise the noble Lord if I completely disagree with that. The state of the economy today is largely a result of the debt-fuelled boom with its unregulated banks that was allowed to go on for 10 years and more under the previous Government. We have inherited a dire situation and the first thing we have to do is to get the deficit under control. That we are doing but within that, as I have explained, one of things we are prioritising is infrastructure expenditure.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, if we are to increase infrastructure expenditure it is clear that a lot of that funding is going to have to come from the private sector, as the noble Lord has already said. Given that, can he confirm reports in the press last week that the Treasury is actively considering new structures that would encourage pension funds and other institutional investors to invest a lot more in infrastructure in the UK than they have in recent decades?

[Lord Sassoon]

I am happy to assure my noble friend that we are thinking of every avenue to unlock flows of funds, whether they are from institutions in this country or abroad. I was in Canada two weeks ago, where some of the longest-term and largest investors in our infrastructure are based. We talk to investors all the time to see what more, if anything, they need from government to facilitate that flow of investment.

Independent Commission on Banking

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Monday 12th September 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, on these Benches we welcome the report and the Government’s response to it. We also welcome the degree of urgency with which the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, wishes the report to be implemented, not least because some of us had to put up with withering scorn from the Labour Benches during the previous Parliament when we suggested exactly the proposals that are now in this report.

The report says that while the full implementation of the proposals might take a number of years, there is much to be gained by moving quickly to set the framework in place so that the banks know what they are up against. The Minister has already mentioned that the Government will look at the extent to which the financial services Bill might be a vehicle for doing that. As we now have a Joint Select Committee on the Bill, of which I have the privilege to be a member under the chairmanship of Peter Lilley MP, would he accept that this offers Parliament a golden opportunity to take evidence quickly on the principal issues that the Vickers report raises and to move with some determination? I am sure that the vast bulk of rule-making that will be required to implement this series of proposals will not need primary legislation but will need FSA regulation or secondary regulation, and that the legislative framework in primary legislation should be relatively short and straightforward.

[Lord Sassoon]

I am very grateful to my noble friend. We will work as hard and as fast as we can now to take forward consideration of the detail. As I have stressed, we have accepted the recommendations of the report in principle, but there is a lot of potential devil in the detail and we need to do a full cost-benefit assessment. Indeed, we need to work through what would be appropriate to introduce into the financial services Bill and what would need a stand-alone Bill. I have no idea how the committee may want to proceed, but it now has the Vickers report in front of it and we will get on with sorting out all these issues as quickly as possible. However, we should not underestimate the amount of work for officials and the amount of consultation needed to get the detail right.

Public Expenditure: Deficit Reduction

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Tuesday 6th September 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

I am not quite sure who should admit what they got wrong, but the former Chancellor, Alistair Darling, made a complete mea culpa when he said, “We got it totally wrong, raising national insurance and putting a tax on jobs”. He said that there was no credible economic policy at the last election, which is why Labour lost.

We have introduced a policy that is on track to get the economy growing. It is the underpinning of the economy by a clear fiscal plan on which we can build. The Chancellor and the Prime Minister are working very hard on the growth of the economy, which is founded on the stabilisation of the deficit that we inherited.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Sassoon]

To generate growth the Government are, first—in answer to the charge on tax—lowering tax in critical areas, such as corporation tax, by increasing the tax allowances for those starting new businesses through, for example, the EIS scheme. We are insisting on a much cheaper and simpler planning system than the one which has been holding back business investment in this country for the past 50 years. We are also significantly increasing the number of apprenticeships—by 250,000 places compared to the previous Government’s plans over the spending review period. I could go on but we need time for other questions. We are working fundamentally on the growth agenda.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that one of the keys to growth will be increased expenditure on infrastructure? It does not bring growth of itself but in the short term it brings many more jobs. When do the Government intend to bring forward the legislation to introduce the green investment bank, and when does the Minister expect that bank to make its first loans?

[Lord Sassoon]

I completely agree with my noble friend that capital and infrastructure expenditure is one of the keys to growth, which is why we were able in the spending review last year to increase the plans that we inherited—to increase, I say again, the spending plans that we inherited from the previous Government —by up to £2.3 billion a year. That is an additional £8.5 billion on capital expenditure in the review period. I therefore agree with my noble friend. As for the green investment bank, it is on course to start the first phase of operation in April 2012. Legislation will be brought forward as soon as the state aid approvals have been forthcoming from Brussels.

Living Standards

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Monday 5th September 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I declare an interest as a former member of the advisory board of the Resolution Foundation, whose work I very much admire. The report talks about wages before the effects of tax and benefits. Indeed, the noble Baroness is right that about two-thirds of the effect which it identifies results from growing wage inequality. However, it is interesting that the report’s tables point out that, at one extreme, the wage inequality results in those within financial services on the 90th percentile of earnings earning 6.2 times the amount earned by somebody on the 10th percentile, whereas in manufacturing the differential is only 3.3 times and has hardly changed over the past decade. Therefore, we need to see a much better balanced economy; balanced growth is what we want to see. In the previous decade, manufacturing’s contribution to the economy halved and that of financial services increased very significantly. The starting point has to be a more balanced growth in the economy.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that one of the findings of the report is that the increase in taxes, particularly national insurance contributions, among lower income wage earners was a contributory factor to the growing inequality? Does he therefore agree that the decision taken by the Government on the national insurance contribution threshold and the decision to increase the income tax threshold will go some way towards addressing the problem which the report mentions? Does he agree that the Government should proceed quickly to increase the income tax threshold in particular as quickly as possible?

[Lord Sassoon]

Indeed, I agree with the points that my noble friend makes. The Government are working on other initiatives to help address this problem, such as driving through the entire package of tax and welfare reforms, introducing the universal credit from 2013-14 and making it pay to work. It is a terrible state of affairs that everything earned by a lone parent who works part time for 10 hours a week is immediately taken off that person through changes to their tax and benefit. Therefore, the introduction of the universal credit and driving through our reforms to tax and welfare are critical to making inroads into this problem.

Monetary Policy Committee

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Wednesday 6th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, does the noble Lord agree that at a time when real incomes are falling, if the Bank of England Monetary Policy Committee were to raise interest rates now the principal effect would simply be to reduce growth and increase unemployment?

[Lord Sassoon]

Yes, I completely agree with my noble friend.

Banking: Lloyds and RBS Shares

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Thursday 30th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I do not know what constitutes language that is not permissible in this House but I do not accept one iota of that analysis. The reason why we have an enormous monetary stimulus through the interest rates—last night, 10 years were at 3.33 per cent—is precisely because we are sticking to the plan to reduce the deficit. Otherwise nothing else would be possible in terms of growth for the economy. Indeed, one of the potential downsides of handing shares out free is that it would have a negative effect on the public finances, which is one of the issues that must be considered.

[Lord Newby]

Would the Minister accept that technology has moved on since 1979 and whatever might have been in the papers at the time in terms of doing something then is wholly irrelevant to the costs of doing something today? Can he see the strength of the argument that once the Treasury has its money back, best value for the British people might best be served by giving them some cash in their pockets to decide for themselves the best way of spending the upside of the privatisation of the banks?

[Lord Sassoon]

Of course I agree with my noble friend that IT has progressed significantly over the past couple of decades, but that does not mean to say that it would be easy to create an IT database of the sort that would be required for this operation. While that is one of the issues to be considered, there are other questions—of distribution, of the impact on the banks’ own funding, of share overhangs and so on. All of these things would have to be looked at.

Greece: Default Contingency

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Monday 20th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Stamford, that if the UK continued with the excessive deficit policies of the previous Government, we would be in a terrible mess in this country. Whether you are in or out of the euro makes no difference, and the UK would be experiencing considerable problems if we had not gripped the deficit. I agree with the implication of his analysis on that point. On the second question about sustainable financing, that is precisely where the IMF starts its assessment of debt sustainability. The critical first plank of sustainability for Greek debt hinges on Greece sticking to its agreed fiscal consolidation path. All else flows from that. As for the Greeks or anyone else leaving the euro, that is a hypothetical question and not one that we should spend any time on.

[Lord Newby]

Does the Minister agree that it is critical not just for Greece but for the UK economy that there is not a disorderly Greek default? In that circumstance, does he agree that the least worst option in what is a difficult situation is to agree an orderly re-profiling of Greek debt? If so, will the Government support moves by the eurozone Finance Ministers to bring about such a re-profiling?

[Lord Sassoon]

I certainly agree with my noble friend that the last thing anyone wants is disorder, whether default or anything else. As I made clear, the next steps are, first, a question for the eurozone itself. We are not directly involved in the eurozone discussions. To address my noble friend’s point, the statement from the euro group today reads:

“Ministers agreed that the required additional funding will be financed through both official and private sources and welcome the pursuit of voluntary private sector involvement in the form of informal and voluntary roll-overs of existing Greek debt at maturity for a substantial reduction of the required year-by-year funding within the programme, while avoiding a selective default for Greece”.

As I said, that is a matter for the eurozone Ministers, but I think that they are addressing the issue in the way that my noble friend suggests.

Banking: Government Shares

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Monday 13th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, given that all UK citizens have, to a greater or lesser extent, had to bear some of the costs of the Government bailing out the banks, can the Minister confirm that the Treasury is giving serious consideration to the distribution of the state-owned shares in RBS and Lloyds Banking Group to the UK population as a whole?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I can confirm to my noble friend that UK Financial Investments will be considering retail participation in the distribution of the shares. That does not, of course, necessarily mean quite what he said, which is some form of distribution but, yes, mass participation in some form is very much to be considered. Value for money is also one of the considerations that UKFI is required to take into account.

Taxation: Healthcare Insurance

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Thursday 9th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I am happy to confirm the position, which is quite clear and obviously will not change. As I say, we are not looking at this, but I never say no to ideas that would save considerable sums of money, however remote the possibility that the scheme would work. However, individual choice is the issue around private medical insurance. There is no plan to alter the role of private medical insurance in healthcare provision and there is no loss of entitlement to NHS care for those who take out private medical insurance.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, leaving aside the financial implications of the Question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Flight, does the Minister agree that to move in that direction at this time would send completely the wrong signals? At a time when we should be supporting and strengthening the NHS, if the Government were in effect to encourage people who could afford it to have nothing to do with it, that would take us in exactly the wrong direction.

[Lord Sassoon]

I am grateful to my noble friend for allowing me to say again that we have absolutely no plans to introduce any such change to the benefit-in-kind rules or to the way in which private healthcare interrelates with the NHS.

Oil Prices

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Wednesday 8th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, of course we would not wish to see inflation at the 4.5 per cent it is now. As has been explained, this is very largely driven by global factors with regard to commodity prices. We are not only keeping to our tight fiscal policy, which underpins the ability of the Bank of England to stick to its mandate, but giving help to the most vulnerable—whether that is the Budget announcement that gave a £630 increase in cash in personal allowances for the under-65s, whether it is in the arrangements that we made to cut fuel duty effectively by 6p per litre from what the plans of the previous Government had been, or whether it is increasing the state pension by 4.6 per cent. What the Government must do, and are doing, is to protect the most vulnerable in our society.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, with the Chinese economy, the Indian economy and many other economies still growing strongly, is it not likely that the price of oil and other fossil fuels will remain high for the foreseeable future? In those circumstances, does the Minister agree that the Government’s carbon reduction strategy assumes an even greater importance? In that context, can he tell us when the Government plan to bring forward the Bill formally establishing the green investment bank?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, we will bring forward the Bill in due course when it is in good shape. I take my noble friend's point about commodity prices. It reinforces the fact that we need to ensure that all energy users get advice to use energy efficiently in order to reduce their household bills. That is part of where we are targeting government help.

Taxation of Equitable Life (Payments) Order 2011

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Tuesday 7th June 2011 Grand Committee

[The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon)]

My Lords, to set this order in context, it may be helpful if I provided a little background on the development of the Equitable Life payment scheme. The Government have pledged to implement the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman’s recommendation to make fair and transparent payments to Equitable Life policyholders for their relative loss as a consequence of regulatory failure. We have made considerable progress towards fulfilling that pledge.

We introduced the Equitable Life (Payments) Bill in July 2010, giving HM Treasury authority to incur expenditure when making these payments. We published Sir John Chadwick’s advice on the financial losses sustained by Equitable Life policyholders, invited representations on this advice, and carefully considered them in our deliberations in advance of the spending review. Following that consideration, and refinements to the calculations of Sir John’s actuaries, we quantified the relative loss at £4.1 billion, based on a full acceptance of the Parliamentary Ombudsman’s findings of maladministration. In determining the level of payments through the scheme, it was important, as the Parliamentary Ombudsman herself acknowledged, to take into account the impact on the public purse. Therefore, at the spending review we announced that approximately £1.5 billion would be paid out through the payment scheme.

It is also important to note that even in the context of a very tight spending review, we still found a way to cover all the losses of the with-profits or trapped annuitants. This is possible because we will be paying their losses through annual payments that reflect the structure of their policies. These policyholders were particularly vulnerable to their losses because they were unable to move their funds elsewhere or mitigate the impact of their losses through employment. They are also generally the oldest policyholders.

We also established the Independent Commission on Equitable Life Payments, chaired by Brian Pomeroy, to advise on the distribution of the remaining funding among other policyholders. The commission reported in January, and its recommendations formed the basis of the Equitable Life payment scheme design document that was published on 16 May. The document sets out the detail of how the scheme will work, including who will receive payments, how they will be calculated, and how they will be made. In that document, we set out our intention to make first payments through the scheme by the end of this month, and we are on track to meet this target.

Noble Lords may be pleased to hear that that this brings me to the order itself. When we introduced the Equitable Life (Payments) Bill last year, we took a power to provide for authorised payments made by the scheme to be free of tax, and to enable them to be disregarded for the purposes of assessing eligibility for certain means-tested state-funded support. At the spending review, the Financial Secretary to the Treasury announced that the payments would be tax free. There are strong reasons for this, which were raised in the representations following the publication of Sir John’s advice. One key issue is simplicity. It would be an extremely difficult task to decide the appropriate tax treatment of a payment that represents loss suffered on an investment over the past 10 years, during which many policyholders’ circumstances may have changed. It would also be very challenging to explain any such treatment and associated reporting requirements to those in receipt of payments. This approach would also be extremely time-consuming. In light of our commitment to bringing the Equitable Life issue to a conclusion as quickly as possible, it is just not tenable.

Secondly, we have taken serious consideration of fairness. Of a total loss of £4.1 billion, £1.5 billion will be made available to the scheme, based on our careful assessment of what funding would strike a fair balance between fairness to policyholders and fairness to the taxpayer. Adding a tax liability to payments on top of this discount would disrupt this balance.

Let me take the Committee through the order. Articles 2 to 4 provide for authorised payments to be disregarded for the purposes of capital gains tax, corporation tax and income tax. All direct payments from the scheme to identified payees, as set out in the Equitable Life Payments Scheme design document, are authorised payments under the scheme. Where Equitable Life has only one set of data and no records of the individual members of a group pension scheme, the scheme will use the trustee of the group pension scheme as a paying agent. Onward payments from these trustees to their pension scheme members are also authorised payments.

Article 5 provides for inheritance tax. It ensures that a person’s right to, or interest in, an authorised payment will be disregarded in calculating the value of that person’s estate on death for the purposes of inheritance tax; and that such rights or interests are similarly disregarded in calculating the value of relevant property subject to a 10-year anniversary charge for inheritance tax, where an authorised payment is made on or after such anniversary. This means that no estate will have to be reopened in order for inheritance tax to be charged on payments received after death. But payments received before death will not be ring-fenced to give them ongoing relief from inheritance tax. Such ring-fencing is not practicable.

Article 6 provides that in calculating investment income for the purposes of entitlement to tax credits an authorised payment shall be disregarded. Section 9 of the scheme design document that we published last month sets out in detail how the tax relief set out in the order will work in relation to the scheme.

I hope that all present will support the making of this order today. Following today’s debate, the order is scheduled for debate in the other place tomorrow. This should ensure that the order is made before the end of the month, giving certainty and reassurance to those who will receive the first payments. The order reflects the Government’s principles of fairness, transparency and simplicity in our response to the Equitable Life saga, and I beg to move.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that clear description of the background and of the order. The whole Equitable Life saga is one of the least-savoury examples of public policymaking in recent years, and it was a great relief that the Government were able to grasp the nettle and reach a settlement so quickly last year. Therefore speed, which was so lacking for so long, needs now to be of the essence in getting payments made. The Minister explained that the payments will be exempt of tax because to have made them liable to tax could have been time consuming. One can think of other cases in which the payment of compensation has taken years because of the time-consuming procedures that were put in place. The pneumoconiosis saga among the miners is a classic example of necessary detailed calculations and assessment taking years, during which time inevitably a significant number of those eligible for the payments died. Given that we are talking here about pensioners, time is of the essence.

I have one question for the Minister. Once the order is passed, the Government hope to begin making payments by the end of this month. Do they have any assessment of how long it is likely to take for the whole process to be completed? That is of huge importance to the individual policyholders. It is great knowing that you are going to get some compensation, but you need certainty. It would therefore be very good if the Government could give some certainty in the timetable so that even those who will not receive payment in the first tranche will have some broad idea of when they will receive it.

EU: Financial and Monetary Co-ordination

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Monday 6th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, we have had a number of opportunities in recent weeks and months, and I am sure that we will again. We have to get the EU budget under control. The rules of accountability and audit need considerable improvement. The Government are actively working on the case. Drawing a connection between that and the regulatory architecture of the financial institutions is somewhat tenuous. We are cleaning up the whole mess left behind on financial regulation, which starts at home. That is why, very shortly, the Government will publish a next round of consultation and a draft Bill to show how we are putting in place a proper system of financial regulation for the UK.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords—

Banking: Savings Accounts

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Monday 23rd May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for raising this important area of savings. We should remind ourselves that a total of 23 million people hold ISA accounts, and of those 15.5 million hold cash ISAs, so this very important part of the savings market is held by some 40 per cent of households. My noble friend’s Question prompted me to speak to the British Bankers’ Association today and I can confirm that the association is working on its own recommendations following on from those made last year by the Office of Fair Trading after it had looked at this area. For example, from early 2012, additional information about the interest rates being offered will be shown on all statements. Further, in line with the recommendation made by the OFT, the association’s members are working to significantly shorten or halve the time it takes to switch accounts. But the structure of interest rates being offered, which is increasingly transparent on the websites that are now available, is a matter of commercial competition. I would recommend all savers to take advantage of the tools that are out there in order to shop around.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, in view of the success of the tax-free index-linked bond issue recently offered by National Savings & Investments, what plans do the Government have to keep this very popular product on the market in the future?

[Lord Sassoon]

I am grateful to my noble friend for drawing attention to the fact that the 48th series of fixed-interest and index-linked savings certificates was launched on 12 May. It is our intention to keep this series on sale for a sustained period. Of course, there is only a certain amount of availability within the targets we set for NS&I, but I am pleased that we are able to fill a gap in the savings market by putting particularly index-linked savings certificates on sale again. They are proving to be popular, but I am advised that there is still a supply of them available. Noble Lords who would like to invest in them do not need to rush out of the Chamber at this moment.

EU: Budget

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Monday 16th May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, there are various ways of peeling that onion, but there is indeed a maximum limit of 1.3 per cent, or thereabouts, of European GNI, and a sub-limit in the current financial perspective of about 1 per cent of European GNI. However, those numbers leave considerable latitude for headroom, and the regrettable fact is that that permits the annual budget to go up, if we do not restrain it, by more than inflation year-on-year. Regrettably, there is not enough constraint on total expenditure and it can rise if we are not vigilantly on the case, as this Government are.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords—

Public Expenditure: Reserve

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Monday 9th May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, do not the comments of Standard & Poor in the US on the possible downgrading of American debt show the folly of building up too great a deficit, however tempting it might be to spend more money on things which we would all like to see?

[Lord Sassoon]

Yes, indeed. As ever, my noble friend Lord Newby gets it absolutely right. Fiscal discipline is absolutely the watchword of this Government. I should say that the Armed Forces will get all the expenditure that they need in relation to net additional costs of military operations in Libya and elsewhere, but that is the exception to the rule.

Fraud: Staffing Levels

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Monday 9th May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I will not be drawn into second-guessing decisions taken by the investigating authorities on any cases. However, I have heard absolutely no suggestion that the investigations in that case were in any way circumscribed by a lack of resource.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, does the Minister accept that, while the additional £900 million that HMRC has to fight fraud is very welcome, the hollowing out of the HMRC regional structure means that many individuals and firms around the country now feel that there is no adequate, as it were, day-to-day supervision of their tax affairs, and that therefore they can get away with it? Will he take back to his colleagues at HMRC the fact that it is not just the people dealing with fraud who need to be reinforced, but that we need to have a continuing robust structure of local management of individuals’ and companies’ tax affairs if fraud is not to take place in the first place?

[Lord Sassoon]

I am grateful to my noble friend for bringing up that specific issue. Of course the question of local coverage is important. I will do as he suggests and take that back to my ministerial colleagues and to the management of HMRC.

EU: Financial Management

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Wednesday 6th April 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I am not responsible for some of the curious terminology which the EU uses, but I believe that financial regulation is the term it uses in this context. The relevant issue about which the Government are concerned is reducing the administrative burden on how expenditure is handled, particularly at member state level. We are worried about some specific questions: the proposal, for example, that loans might be used by the Commission to purchase EU buildings, which is something that the Government oppose; and the question of introducing a concept of tolerable risk of error within the accounting framework, which we oppose. I said before but I will say again that we want to push for much greater transparency in how assigned revenue is used. A host of issues come under that heading, but I cannot be responsible for the terminology.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, the UK Government had support solely from the Netherlands and Sweden for the declaration submitted to the relevant meeting in February. What was the reaction of the other 24 member states at that meeting? What are the Government doing not just, as it were, to lobby the Commission but to persuade other member states that what seems a sensible series of reforms should get wider support?

[Lord Sassoon]

I am grateful to my noble friend, because he gives me an opportunity to refer to the joint letter in December, very much led by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister, to which Germany, France, Finland and the Netherlands were also signatories. That talks about the need progressively to tighten up on and limit the growth of payments into the EU budget in 2012-13 and makes important observations about the necessity for growth in the EU budget through the next financial perspective to be limited. That is a forward-looking set of proposals to which a significant number of member states are already committed.

EU: European Financial Stabilisation Mechanism

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Thursday 31st March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

No, my Lords. No apology is due. I have already tried to make it clear, but let me make it absolutely clear again. Consensus was reached on the process by which the ECOFIN qualified majority voting meeting would take place. That, as has also been made completely clear, is quite a separate matter from my right honourable friend the Chancellor making clear his position on the underlying policy matter. The two matters are distinct. The decision on the policy matter was for the then Chancellor, Mr Alistair Darling. He was the Chancellor at the time and he took the decision.

[Lord Newby]

In view of the stress tests on the Irish banks that were recently announced, will the Minister confirm that any further support that the Irish banks might need via European mechanism facilities that are already in place will not require any additional funding from the European financial stability mechanism?

[Lord Sassoon]

I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Newby for again bringing us back to important current matters. The results of the Irish banks’ stress tests, as I understand it, will be released by the Central Bank of Ireland at 4.30 this afternoon, so it would be inappropriate to comment on them. Of course, the Irish authorities have consulted Her Majesty’s Treasury, the Bank of England and the FSA about the impact of bank restructuring, and the Government expect that the forthcoming announcement will remain in line with the broad principles of the support package provided to Ireland. I would just add that the Government have made clear their commitment to ensure that the Northern Ireland banking sector continues fully to meet the needs of businesses and consumers in Northern Ireland.

Tax Credits Up-rating Regulations 2011

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Wednesday 23rd March 2011 Grand Committee

[The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon)]

My Lords, I shall also speak to the draft Guardian’s Allowance Up-rating Order 2011, and the draft Guardian’s Allowance (Northern Ireland) Up-rating Order 2011. In my view, the regulations and orders are compatible with the European Convention on Human Rights.

The Government inherited an exceptional fiscal challenge. It is important to sketch out the background to these important statutory instruments and to put them into proper context. The state is borrowing one pound in every four that it spends, and just paying the interest on the nation’s debt costs £43 billion—around £120 million a day. The unprecedented scale of the deficit has meant that the Government had to make tough choices in the June 2010 Budget and in the spending review about how taxpayers’ money is allocated.

We believe that fairness starts by taking the right decisions to tackle the deficit so that future generations are not burdened with unsustainable debts, meaning higher taxes and diminished public services. Tackling the deficit in a fair and responsible way means that those that can contribute do and those who are less able to do so are supported. Analysis shows that after combining the impact of tax, tax credit and benefit and public service spending changes announced by this Government, the top 20 per cent of households will make the greatest contribution towards reducing the deficit as a percentage of their income and benefits in kind from public services. That is a statement that was true after the Budget and spending round as of last year, which encompassed the measures we are talking about, but of course it remains true and confirmed in the numbers that came out with the Budget today.

The regulations and orders before the Committee put into effect a number of reforms to tax credits, announced in the June 2010 Budget and the spending review. These changes will ensure that we tackle the deficit in a way that is fair and ensures that tax credits are targeted at those who need them most. Tax credit elements which were previously uprated by the retail prices index will be uprated this year by the consumer prices index, apart from the basic and 30-hour elements of working tax credit, which will be frozen. The rate of guardian’s allowance will also be uprated by CPI. However, significant above-indexation increases to the child tax credit will help those households with children.

Under the current system, tax credits are available to families earning up to £58,000. If households have an increase in income up to £25,000 in a year, they can earn up to £83,000 and still benefit from tax credits. This means that people in the top income decile are eligible, which is unjustifiable within the current economic climate. Reforms to tax credits included within these regulations and orders mean that support for higher income households will be reduced by increasing the rate at which tax credits are withdrawn, while reducing the threshold at which tax credits are paid. Households will also no longer experience an increase in household income of up to £25,000 without their tax credit eligibility changing. Under the current system, around nine out of 10 families with children are eligible for tax credits. Once the tax credit changes have been introduced in April this year, seven out of 10 families will still be eligible for tax credits.

Spending on tax credits has increased from £18 billion in 2003-04 to an estimated £30 billion in 2010-11. The system of tax credits under the previous Government was not only unsustainable in fiscal terms; it was also unrealistic in terms of meeting its stated policy objectives. From 2004, progress on relative poverty stalled. However, the previous Government continued to pump money into the tax credit system. They spent more than £150 billion on tax credits since 2003.

Although a large proportion of tax credit spending was directed at children, the Institute for Fiscal Studies has estimated that meeting the 2020 child poverty target would require an extra £19 billion of welfare transfers. The previous Government had a static view of poverty, believing that it could be reduced, or even eradicated, by directing money at it. The way that child poverty is currently measured means that, perversely, reducing the income tax paid by millions of lower earners, or providing additional support to low-income pensioners, could push up the poverty line. This would increase the number of children calculated as being in poverty. We want to take a long-term, strategic view to tackling poverty, which is about more than just welfare transfers. This is not about moving families and children above an arbitrary line—where one day they are in poverty and the next they are not—but is about transforming their life chances.

The Prime Minister asked Frank Field and Graham Allen to undertake reviews on poverty and life chances. Findings from both reviews have fed into the child poverty strategy, which will be published shortly. While awaiting the conclusions of these reviews, the Government have used some of the savings from withdrawing child benefit from families with a higher rate taxpayer to fund significant above-indexation increases in the child tax credit over the next two years. This means that the child tax credit will increase by £255 in 2011, benefiting 2.4 million of the poorest families. This increase is better targeted at low-income families and will ensure that the spending review will have no measurable impact on child poverty in the next two years.

As well as targeting financial support at low-income households, the spending review introduced a new fairness premium, which will fundamentally change the prospects of the poorest children by offering real opportunities to raise them out of poverty for the long term. The fairness premium is worth over £7.2 billion over the spending review period and will include a £2.5 billion premium to support the educational development of the poorest pupils. It also protects cash funding for Sure Start to support the poorest in early years and at every stage of their education.

Despite the last Government’s spending on tax credits, working-age poverty actually increased under Labour, as there are now more working-age adults in poverty than there were in 1997. The current welfare state too often traps people in dependency. Almost 2 million children are living in workless households. The spending review announced radical plans to reform the welfare state. The new universal credit, which will be introduced over two Parliaments, will replace the current complex system of means-tested working-age benefits with a single, streamlined payment. The universal credit, which will cut through the complexity of the existing benefits system, will ensure that work pays.

In that context, I commend these regulations and orders to the Committee.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, in the context of the overall fiscal position in which we find ourselves, it is not surprising that we are having to make some pretty unpalatable changes to some tax credits. As the Minister has said, expenditure on tax credits rose in cash terms by two-thirds over the seven years from 2003. In the current environment, that is simply unsustainable.

Although there are some aspects of the changes that we find quite difficult—for example, reducing the proportion of reclaimable childcare is not something that we would have done willingly—other elements are long overdue. It is crazy that people earning £50,000 or £60,000 or even £70,000 have been able to claim an element of child tax credit. Of course, the concept that parents find themselves in financial stress when they have young children is not new; it is dealt with at great length in Malthus’s great essay on population, where he talks about how poverty comes to young families at the point when they have children. However, that was talking about an era in which most people were poor for the whole of their lives. That simply does not exist today. A circumstance in which nine out of 10 families were eligible for tax credit does not really have any sense. Even with the changes, some seven families out of 10 will continue to get tax credits. That certainly encompasses all those who could even vaguely be said to be in need.

The situation we now find ourselves in at this end of the income scale was exemplified to me by a colleague in another place yesterday, who was telling me that she had had a letter from a constituent grumbling that the changes to tax credits and child benefit meant that she and her family would no longer be able to have their second foreign holiday that year, and asking what the MP was going to do about it. I suspect she got a fairly shirty response, but many people at upper income levels have been regarding tax credits and child benefit as not necessary for the ordinary running of the family but for luxuries, so to see that curtailed in the overall scheme is very welcome.

Slightly down the track comes the really welcome introduction of the universal credit. Just as, at the top end, people are getting some benefits who, frankly, do not need them for the good functioning of their families, at the bottom end there are still huge disincentives around work and huge anger among people who are trying to make a living and do the right thing.

At the recent Lib Dem conference in Sheffield I went to get my papers from a kiosk in the shopping centre in the centre of Sheffield, and the young woman behind the kiosk asked rather aggressively what I was doing there. I said very timorously that I was at the Lib Dem conference. She said she was a Labour voter. I was prepared for a tirade about how flinty hearted we were and I got a tirade, but the tirade I got related to the fact that because she was a single mum with two young children she could only work part-time and earn only £6,000 a year and her sister, who was 28 and had never done a day’s work in her life, was getting more from the state. At this point her colleague in the kiosk joined in. They were so intent on telling me about this injustice in the system that everybody else who was trying just to buy a paper had to come up in a very shamefaced way so as not to interrupt this flow of invective, which was being directed at politicians generally. I was able to tell her that the universal benefit was on its way and thereafter life would look somewhat fairer from her perspective.

I have two questions for the Minister around these proposals today. The first relates to what he said about Sure Start. There has been an awful lot of noise about Sure Start. He said that the Government are protecting the cash funding for Sure Start. I know that every Liberal Democrat council is able to maintain Sure Start and I know some councils cannot. Can the Minister tell me why, if the Government are protecting the cash funding for Sure Start, some councils might be choosing to cut it?

Secondly, the whole area of child poverty is to be the subject, I believe, of a child poverty strategy document due for publication shortly. Under the terms of the Child Poverty Act it is due to be produced by the end of March. It is now almost the end of March and I would like the Minister’s assurance that that document will, indeed, be winging its way to us over the next few days.

Inflation

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Thursday 17th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, first, I am grateful for the congratulations, however backhanded, offered by the noble Lord, Lord Barnett, and I will bank them. We are discussing the letter from my right honourable friend the Chancellor to the governor. In that letter, as I attempted to explain in my first Answer, he does not express any view about interest rates because, as the noble Lord well knows, the setting of interest rates is an independent matter for the Monetary Policy Committee of the Bank of England. I am sorry if I have to be boring about this, but there seems to be some misunderstanding. It is absolutely not for the Chancellor to express any view on this matter. What he does, as the noble Lord recognises, is to express confidence in the governor and the MPC structure and to support their independence.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, the Chancellor’s letter, which is suitably bland and opaque, contains an intriguing suggestion. It says that the Government are committed to reducing the drivers of inflation, including,

“demand for energy and supply constraints in food markets”.

Can the Minister say what the Government are doing on those two matters?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for recognising that the Chancellor’s letter was indeed couched in suitable terms. What my right honourable friend said on these points related specifically to commodity markets with our G20 partners—this is a particular focus of the G20 presidency, now with the French—to make sure that we have some global understanding of the drivers and an analysis of what might follow from that.

National Insurance Contributions Bill

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Monday 14th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, I have made clear in the past my criticism of the Government’s cuts to regional expenditure. Therefore, I welcome the fact that this measure potentially puts back the best part of £1 billion into regional development. It is not the traditional way in which it has been done. Arguably, if it works, it will be more effective because it follows the market absolutely rather than the views of regional development agencies. Therefore, it could be an effective way of getting money back where it is needed.

I found the first of the arguments of the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, about fairness quite perplexing. To argue that the measure is unfair because it excludes the more affluent parts of the country is to argue that regional policy is unfair because it excluded or did not give much preference to the wealthier parts of the country. It is true that there are wards and constituencies in London that are extremely poor and that have high levels of unemployment—that has been the case for a very long time and throughout the history of regional development—but it has not been seen in the past as a reason for not giving additional support to the north, where the problems are even greater. The difference between the problems of Newham and those of Sunderland, Liverpool and Barrow is that Newham is in a buoyant labour market within a travel-to-work area that is doing very well compared with the rest of the country. Many communities in the north are in labour markets and travel-to-work areas where there is simply no way to get a job very easily. That is the essential difference between the excluded regions in the south and those in the north.

The noble Lord spoke about simplicity. While he might have been right to castigate the Minister for using administrative arguments in dealing with the first amendment, he is doing exactly the same here. He cannot argue that a man or a company cannot be given a benefit in Newcastle just because, two and a half years down the line, they employ someone in London. That argument does not stand up.

New businesses have been set up in the past predominantly in excluded areas. Therefore, if his approach were adopted, one would expect a large number of new businesses to be established in London and the other excluded regions. What assessment have he and the Labour Party made of the cost of such an extension of the area? I know that he—and, indeed, I—are not absolutely convinced that £940 million is the cost of this programme, but no doubt he has a view as to what it is likely to be. I suspect that the cost of extending the provision will be double what is in the estimates already, which means a potential cost of another £940 million. Even if it is £500 million, has the noble Lord contemplated that? How does that extra expenditure fit into the Labour Party’s commitment, under the Fiscal Responsibility Act, to halve the deficit over the next four years?

[Lord Sassoon]

I am very grateful to my noble friend Lord Newby; he has done my job admirably on these amendments. However, I start by returning to fairness. The reason for the Government introducing the holiday is their belief that it is fair that people and regions that have become overdependent on public sector jobs are given additional help as the economy has to rebalance. I therefore agree completely with my noble friend. It is clear that the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, means to misconstrue the purpose of the Bill.

We in the Government are doing other things to lift the burden of national insurance contributions on businesses right across the country, notably by raising the threshold by £21 per week above indexation from 6 April 2011 and by reducing corporation tax rates. Those very considerable measures are benefiting businesses right across the country, reversing the damaging effect of the Labour Government’s jobs tax. This particular measure is not about fairness across the country in that sense but about fairness to those regions that, under the previous Government, became overdependent on government employment. This is a way of targeting resources to enable new businesses to grow in those regions.

My noble friend Lord Newby went on to ask the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, about the additional cost of the scheme. The Government estimate that if the scheme were to go national it would increase the projected costs of the scheme by about 70 per cent, so my noble friend is completely right that this could be a significant additional expenditure. He has made the point that I was not going to make, although he is quite right; it is yet another example of Labour’s unfunded spending promises.

As for other issues on the excluded regions, the reason why Greater London, the eastern and the south-eastern regions are excluded is principally because the proportion of the population in public sector employment in those regions is lower than in any other parts of the UK. Also, in addition to my noble friend’s point, noble Lords might wish to be reminded that during the public evidence session on the Bill, representatives from the Federation of Small Businesses and the British Chambers of Commerce made it clear that the south-east is more resilient than the rest of the UK and that the formation of now businesses would not be harmed significantly if the holiday was not available in these regions. The Government agree with that assessment.

There is then the question of having pockets of deprivation with high claimant count in particular parts of the excluded region. The Government of course acknowledge that areas smaller than regions have particular concentrations of needs. That is reflected in our looking for more efficient mechanisms than this one for addressing those more local needs. For example, my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer announced earlier this month that the Budget will introduce new enterprise zones across parts of Britain. Those zones have great potential but need that extra push from the Government and local communities working together. Such enterprise zones would be expected to be far, far smaller than regions. There are other, fairer and more appropriate ways of dealing with the issues which the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, raises perfectly reasonably. They just do not happen to have anything to do with this holiday, which is about dealing with an unbalanced economy as far as dependence on public sector jobs is concerned.

In conclusion, the holiday is targeted specifically at regions and countries with the highest proportion of public sector dependence. It is there to encourage new businesses to start up and to take on employees in those areas. I will not be drawn into updating now on the take-up—there will be other occasions for that—but one would expect it to increase over time. We will no doubt discuss a little later today the form of reporting that is appropriate. Expanding the holiday to the whole country would undermine the very purpose and rationale of the policy. I ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

Credit Unions

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Tuesday 8th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I am certainly happy to confirm that credit unions play an important part in the Government’s priority to see diversity and choice in financial services and to support financial inclusion, given that in areas of the highest economic and social deprivation credit unions are able to achieve the most impact. The credit union movement is growing significantly, with government support and following the support of the previous Government. We will certainly work to do whatever is reasonable to continue with that growth of the credit union movement.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that a key role of credit unions is to provide basic bank accounts for people who are currently unbanked? Could he therefore confirm whether the £73 million that the Government are making available to credit unions will be used in part to set up a shared banking platform for credit unions that would be available in all post offices?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I am happy to confirm to my noble friend that Ministers expect the post office network to play a central role in enabling credit unions to reach more families. Part of the funding, which I have already mentioned, is going towards projects related to that end—projects that are in the capable hands of my noble friend Lord Freud. He is running with that project; it is in safe hands and the Post Office is central to it.

Taxation: Low-value Consignment Relief

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Tuesday 1st March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I have to say that, until a few days ago, I was equally in the dark. I shall try to keep it within the seven minutes.

There is a scheme in European law to make sure that small-value goods imported from outside the European Union can be exempted from value added tax, because it would be disproportionate and a huge cost to consumers and businesses if every small parcel bought from outside the EU had to be scrutinised by the Royal Mail and VAT collected. So there is an exemption under European law for individual consignments up to the value of €22 or £20. At the moment the UK has a limit of £18, below which VAT on imports is not collected. I hope that that explains it.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, will the Minister accept that while at one level it sounds a rather frivolous subject, we are talking about more than 90 per cent of all CD sales in the UK? It has had a damaging impact on retailers and is another example of the Channel Islands being able to benefit from a tax scam. Will he take back to his colleagues in the Treasury the view of many Members of your Lordships’ House that this is a classic area where a small change in practice by HMRC can yield very many benefits which not only are good in principle but can also be beneficial to the Treasury?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I fully accept my noble friend’s statement that this is an important area, which is why the Treasury is looking at it. It flows not from any scam but from the fact that the Channel Islands are treated as outside the European Union for these purposes. That goes back to the accession treaty. The previous Government took steps with the Channel Islands authorities to encourage them to introduce a voluntary restraint and caps on the activities of individual firms in this area. The issue relates not only to CDs and DVDs but to a whole range of goods. It is precisely because this is an important area and we want to make sure that the Exchequer is protected that Ministers are looking at what else we might do.

Independent Commission on Banking

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Monday 28th February 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I am attacked one week for not answering questions that have been asked, and now my right honourable friend is being queried as to why he answers questions that he has not been asked. He wanted to make it absolutely clear, which he did in the Statement on Project Merlin, that nothing there pre-empted or in any way cut across the independent remit of the banking commission. I think the position remains clear.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that one of the issues that the Vickers Commission is looking at is how to reduce risk within the banking sector and risk taken by individual institutions? In light of that, do the Government support the decision by Northern Rock to increase the proportion of loan-to-value on mortgages to 90 per cent, which many people see as the first step towards a return to the bad old days?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I agree with my noble friend that risk and the stability of the system go the heart of the remit of the commission. However, the individual product sets which are offered by individual banks is at the moment a matter for the Financial Services Authority, and I am sure that it will be taking its responsibilities very seriously in relation to the business models and products of all the banks it regulates.

National Insurance Contributions Bill

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Monday 28th February 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, I have a factual question to ask the Minister on this. During my life, I have been involved in setting up one or two charities where the legal basis of the charity has been a company limited by guarantee which has then got charitable status, so that we have been filling in returns to Companies House as well as to the Charity Commission. What I do not understand is: if a charity’s legal basis is corporate and that charity is then employing staff, whether trading or not, why does it not mean that it would be covered by the normal income tax and national insurance rules?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, in answer to my noble friend Lord Newby’s point, my understanding is that there is indeed no distinction within the normal income tax and national insurance rules but that it is all a question of trading versus non-trading. I believe that is a test which is independent of whether it would be a company limited by guarantee with share capital, a partnership or anything else. If I am wrong on that point, I will correct myself but my understanding is that the question is independent of the structure of the business.

That trading/non-trading question—to express the issue in another way—goes to the heart of what we are trying to achieve by this holiday: an objective to encourage new businesses and new entrepreneurs and for those individuals to set up businesses, as we have already discussed, in areas with a high proportion of public sector employment. It is not that it could, in a wider sense, be a good thing to provide all sorts of other benefits to worthy causes, including non-trading charities. The fundamental purpose of the Bill is to encourage new entrepreneurs to set up businesses. In that context, if those business activities are structured and are charities, it is important and quite appropriate that the trading activity should benefit from the holiday in the Bill.

Of course, the Government value the important work that charities do. I heard the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, talk about the Government in their benign moments valuing the big society. We value the big society at all times. Therefore, by extension, this is indeed a benign Government and I am grateful to him for recognising that. Nevertheless, very tough choices have to be made, benign or otherwise. One of the choices we have made is to continue to provide substantial support to charities. So the total relief which charities and charitable giving get are something of the order of more than £3 billion each year. Of course, charities will also benefit from the increase in the employer’s national insurance contribution threshold.

We certainly do not forget charities in many other ways. They are a critical component of the big society. For a scheme that is intended to target a particular direction, we believe that it is appropriate for the holiday to apply to, say, a new charity business, which may be setting up a charity shop or an entrepreneurial activity, but that it should apply only in those particular circumstances. I am sure the noble Lord did not intend this, but the tone of his remarks sounded, at some points, as if we were depriving charities of something. It is not that charities in regions of the country, whether the eligible regions or the excluded regions, are being deprived of anything that they now have; it is simply that, with the resources that we now have, we believe that it is appropriate and indeed the purpose of the Bill to encourage the setting up of new businesses in areas with a high proportion of public sector employment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Newby]

It is a pity that Amendment 14 is not grouped with these two amendments as they clearly fall together. While everybody supports promoting apprenticeships, it seems to me that the Bill is simpler than what the noble Lord proposes. While it is a good thing to promote apprenticeships, if I am starting up a new business and am not necessarily going to employ apprentices, I could envisage a situation in which I might well employ 10 people. I raise this while declaring an interest. I formed a community interest company a year ago, which will start trading in this coming financial year. It is likely to be based in Birmingham. I do not know whether the company will qualify for this measure, given it was formed but not trading last year, but we will be employing both part-time and full-time people in the area of education and sport. It may well be, if we are successful, that we will be employing more than 10 people within three years. If some of those are coaches or if some of them are already qualified as teachers, they will have skills. They will be working for us where they would not otherwise be working in an area covered by the Bill, but technically they will not be apprentices.

I think that you would lose the opportunity to encourage companies which are employing people who would not be eligible for apprenticeships by reducing the limit down from 10 to five. Of course, if the limit stays at 10, Amendment 14 has virtually no impact because the number would go up only from 10 to 12. Therefore, partly in a self-interested sense—I have no idea whether our company would qualify and this is not the reason that I am doing it—it seems to me that you may damage employment prospects by these amendments in a way that is not really intended.

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, as ever, I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Newby for pointing out some of the logic of what the Government are proposing. But in this case it is not principally to accommodate up to 10 employees that we have put the limit where it is. We recognise, as the noble Lord, Lord Davies, says, that the average number of employees that businesses typically hire in their first year is around two. Yes, it would be nice if a business, such as that which my noble friend Lord Newby may be starting, pushes up against the limit. We would welcome lots of that.

We have set the limit at 10 rather than five for two reasons. It would enable more flexibility to accommodate staff turnover, so that although most new businesses employ only two employees in their first year, those two employees may often be different and come and go on a temporary basis. This is a way of accommodating a rolling number even if at any one time there might be only two, three or four employees. Nevertheless, within the period of the holiday, we allow 10 within the Bill.

On a similar point, we need to think about part-time employees, a point to which we will come later. Certainly, it might have been helpful if a number of these amendments had been grouped. This is the Government’s proposed way of addressing the issue of part-time employees without the need to introduce potentially complex definitions of eligible employees based on full-time equivalents. For example, some employers do not remunerate their staff by reference to the number of hours they work, but they might be remunerated according to the amount of work that they produce—piecework. Again, providing for up to 10 qualifying employees ensures that employers with part-time staff or with staff whose hours are not predictable are not disadvantaged and that such employers can take full advantage of the holiday.

As I anticipated, the noble Lord, Lord Davies, is thinking about where savings might be made in order to extend the scope of the scheme in other directions. It is perhaps worth saying that because of the distribution of new employers’ staff numbers, restricting the number of eligible employees from 10 to five would make a disproportionately small reduction in the cost of the scheme. That is not the main reason, as I have explained, for resisting the amendment. The benefit of the amendment would not be anything like what it might seem on the face of it—relevant to the headline numbers. On that basis, I would ask the noble Lord to withdraw this amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, I support the principles behind these amendments. This is a very specific scheme and it should be possible to tell whether it has worked. If it does not work—we hope that it will—the Treasury will be in the happy position of not forgoing revenue that it had expected to forgo. There would be an unused pot, as it were. If, as I fear may be the case, the scheme as outlined does not yield the number of new jobs that the Government hope, it would be very useful, after a year, to see how—to the extent that funding is available for job creation in the regions—it might be more effectively deployed.

As I mentioned at Second Reading, an obvious extension to the scheme would be to provide a modest ability for existing businesses in the designated regions to employ additional staff and qualify for a holiday. In those circumstances, it would be perfectly possible to say that every small business in the designated areas could employ an additional person and qualify for the holiday, so that the scope of the scheme is extended but keeps within the expenditure envelope already set aside for it. Whether that is possible will depend on whether the scheme works as intended. The only way we will know that is if we have a report as set out in these amendments.

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, we certainly agree that generally tax policy-making and the effects of tax measures should be more transparent. It is for that reason and because of the commitments given in another place, which I shall run through in a moment, that we do not believe that Amendment 17 is necessary. However, we completely share the commitment to transparency. Therefore, it may be helpful to the Committee if I echo the undertaking given by my honourable friend the Exchequer Secretary in another place to provide Parliament and the public with updates after the end of the tax year on the operation of the scheme, including information at regional level, although the precise requirements set out in the amendment could raise legal issues, for example on confidentiality of taxpayer data.

The factual report that we envisage would cover, regionally and nationally, the number of new businesses applying, the number of applications rejected, the number of qualifying employees for whom a holiday has been claimed and the amount claimed. The main difference between the commitment that the Government have made and this amendment is that the latter would require a constituency level breakdown even though the scheme is regional in England and will not cover every English constituency.

I remind the Committee that during proceedings in Committee in another place, amendments put forward with the aim of altering the holiday to a constituency basis were discussed at some length. My honourable friend the Exchequer Secretary said then that the Government do not believe that a constituency-based scheme is either appropriate or feasible. Since we have a regional scheme including the whole of Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, it does not seem logical to provide a constituency level breakdown even if it was possible to do so. A regional scheme and a regional analysis at the end of each tax year will be available for scrutiny. Therefore, we do not think that it is necessary to enshrine that in an amendment to the Bill. I refer to Amendment 18—I said Amendment 17 at one point, and will come to that in a moment.

A technical point in the amendment refers to a budget for the scheme. For the avoidance of doubt, businesses can be confident that there is no budgetary constraint. The holiday will continue as proposed, regardless of the number of applicants. The expected costs of the scheme were set out in the policy-costing documentation at the time of the Budget last year.

Amendment 17 is aimed at providing flexibility to modify the holiday. As I have explained, the Government want to target available resources on the regions most dependent on public sector employment. We want to do so in the way that we have discussed at length with regard to the qualifying businesses, the numbers of employees and so on. However, introducing flexibility to change the details of the scheme, as proposed in the amendment, would increase uncertainty for those who might potentially benefit and would risk inhibiting decision-making for those who need to know with some certainty what the holiday permits. I hope that I have provided considerable reassurance on the questions of transparency and of the ability of the House to scrutinise the way that the scheme will operate in practice, and that noble Lords will withdraw their amendment.

Banking

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Wednesday 9th February 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

Indeed, I completely agree with the noble Lord, Lord McFall. With regard to the Merlin agreement, the fact that the five highest-paid senior executive officers now come within the remuneration disclosure is very important. As the noble Lord will know, senior executive officers typically encompass not only those responsible for managing the key divisions but also people such as the chief financial officer and the chief risk officer, who are at the heart of controlling risk in the system. Therefore, I think that the noble Lord’s point is very well made and, as I said, the Government will consult on this issue in the forthcoming year.

[Lord Newby]

I think the Minister for repeating the Statement and I agree with him that the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, should surely be directing his moral outrage at his colleagues—not least the noble Lord, Lord Myners. If it was so easy to make all the changes which he is castigating the Government for having failed to make, I wonder why none of those changes was implemented by his Government.

A number of measures in the Statement are welcome. I welcome the fact that cash bonuses for the part-nationalised banks are limited to such a small amount. The noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, may not think that £2,000 maximum cash bonus is a change, but if you ask bankers whether they think that it is a change, I suspect that they would have a different view. I also welcome the fact that the banks in their statement said that they aim to foster more demand in lending to SMEs. Given that the view of the SME community over the past two years has been that those banks have been thwarting demand and that one of the main problems has been the attitude at the top level of those banks on lending to SMEs, if senior management in those banks get their regional people to foster more demand for loans, there will be more loans. That is clearly what we want.

I want to make two points for now. First, there is a rather curious suggestion about consultation on disclosure of the highest paid earners. That is the proposition that the banks should publish the pay of the board plus eight of the highest paid senior executive officers. Eight seems to be a figure plucked out of the air. Surely it would be more sensible for the Government to consult more widely and, in particular, to consider whether disclosure should not apply to everyone in the banks who earns above a certain amount.

Secondly, as the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, pointed out, the Banking Commission is the next part of the story in the operation and regulation of the banks. The Statement simply states that the Government are looking forward to receiving the recommendations of the Banking Commission. That is an extremely weak statement. It implies that the Government will receive them, say thank you very much and then leave them on the shelf. Can the Minister reassure me that the Government will be minded to accept proposals from the Banking Commission and will not simply regard this as an academic exercise?

[Lord Sassoon]

I am very grateful to my noble friend Lord Newby for expressing some of the sentiments that I wish I had expressed as succinctly as he did about the Opposition's abject failure to have gripped these issues earlier, and for pointing out what a dramatic difference a mere £2,000 in cash makes to a senior banker who, under previous arrangements, would have been expecting to receive many multiples of that.

We will consult on my noble friend's specific questions and have no presumption as to where the outcome of the consultation will be on the remuneration/disclosure issue. There is no particular magic about the number eight, but eight plus two executives on the board, which there might typically be, would total 10. That is about double the number disclosed in, say, the US or Hong Kong so we are already exceeding disclosure in the US and Hong Kong and going further to a position which might double the number of directors whose remuneration is detailed. That seems to be a good point to start a consultation, but it will be an open one.

As for the independent Banking Commission, I can absolutely confirm that the Government do not remotely regard this as an academic exercise. We appointed the commission early after we took office because we thought that it was so important to get to the bottom of the issues about the structure of the industry, “too big too fail”, and so on. When my right honourable friend says “Look forward”, he means in a positive sense look forward to what will be a serious and important piece of work.

Currency Markets

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Wednesday 2nd February 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I have been completely clear, as has my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer on numerous occasions, that while we wish to see a stable eurozone, which is indeed in Britain’s best interests, we will not be a part of the new permanent European stability mechanism, which is a matter for the eurozone countries. However, that does not mean that we are not rightly concerned, as I have just explained, to make sure that the stability mechanism is established in an appropriate way. Just as we played a constructive role in relation to Ireland, we will continue to play a constructive role in relation to all these matters as we go forward.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, following on from the previous question, will the Minister confirm that the Government will press the ECB to issue more euro-denominated bonds? That is a cheap and efficient way of generating funds which can be taken up by Ireland, Greece and the other eurozone member states that are now in financial difficulties.

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for again underlining some of the successes in recent financing in the eurozone, which is an encouraging sign. I would not go so far as presuming to give the ECB further advice, but certainly recent market operations have been encouraging.

Monetary Policy Committee

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Monday 31st January 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I will not fall into the trap of second-guessing the MPC. As I have said, the Monetary Policy Committee of the Bank of England runs monetary policy on an independent basis. That was an establishment of the previous Government to which I pay tribute. I am certainly not going to do anything other than restate the critical importance of the independence of the Monetary Policy Committee. It is up to the committee to decide how to hit the inflation target, which it is doing with the full confidence of the Government.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, does the noble Lord agree that the principal reason for having an inflation target was to bear down on domestic demand inflation, particularly wage inflation? Would he further agree that at the moment such pressure does not exist—wages are flat—and therefore it would be a mistake to put interest rates up primarily in response to external factors?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend because, while again I will resist the temptation to second-guess the Bank of England, it has indeed attributed the recent rise in inflation, which has been significantly to the depreciation of sterling, to the increase in VAT which the last Government put in place and to the rise in energy prices. These are external factors.

Budget Responsibility and National Audit Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Monday 31st January 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Eatwell]

On Amendments 8 and 10, the noble Lord, Lord Higgins, will have to suffer the possibility of inconsistent forecasts because that is, in a way, embodied in the independence and separation of the Bank of England. The whole point of an independent Bank of England, and the way the Labour Government set up the independent status of the Monetary Policy Committee and the Bank of England, is that it should be allowed to take an independent view. That independent view will be informed by its own research. This can lead not just to forecasting inconsistency but to policy inconsistency, but that is the price we are going to pay if we think this is an appropriate policy mix. The very distinguished late economist Sir James Meade pointed out many times that this separation could lead to serious policy inconsistency, and he was entirely opposed to its, none the less, that is the way we have constructed policy-making in this country, and that separation will bring with it the possibility—indeed, the probability—of some forecast inconsistency. However, we should note that recently the Governor of the Bank of England has been making many statements about fiscal policy, which is not his territory. That is very unfortunate. He seems to have encouraged the Prime Minister to make comments on interest rates, which are not his territory either. If this separation is deemed to be a good thing by our Parliament and policy-makers, I hope that the governor and the Prime Minister will respect it.

The problem I have with Amendment 10, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Higgins, is that I do not think the output gap is a precise notion which can be believed if you say it is 2.5 per cent or something like that. In the Budget debate and in the debate on the comprehensive spending review, I argued that it is a statistical construct. It has embedded within it a series of statistical assumptions. It was quite striking that in the first OBR report, the definition of the structural deficit was changed, to the benefit, I might add, of the Government’s arguments. Therefore, I do not want too much credibility to be put on what is a useful indicative statistic. The weight put on it can be taken too far.

I strongly support the Government’s amendments both on transparency of assumptions and consideration of the risks to which the economy might be exposed. The latter issue, with the OBR now being required to talk about the risks to which the economy is exposed, is very important. For example, let us suppose that we had had an OBR of 2006 vintage. That OBR could have expressed concerns about the fiscal risk the economy was subject to by being dependent on such a high proportion of tax revenues coming from just one sector of the economy, that of financial services. It would have had the opportunity to say, in facing that risk, that some diversification of revenue sources might be desirable. Similarly, in defining the sustainability of the public accounts, the OBR should take into account the risk to sustainability generated by the foreign balance and by the savings and spending behaviour of the private sector, and their interactions with the public balances. Providing these insights into the risks of public sector financial management would extend the debate about the public finances in a very useful way and would ensure that the debate is far better informed than it has been in the past. So I would like particularly to add the support of this side for government Amendment 9.

[Lord Newby]

I would like to echo the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, in two respects; first, in his comments on Amendment 9, which I will not repeat, and secondly, in his comments on Amendment 10. I am dubious about the value of giving enhanced status to an assessment of the output gap or when the economic cycle is likely to end for reasons largely already given by the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell. The output gap is not an absolutely firm context and figure that is easily grasped and measured. As we saw with the previous Government, a lot of weight was put on the economic cycle because the golden rule about government expenditure and borrowing depended on it. The problem was that whenever a difficulty arose, lo and behold, the definition of the cycle changed to push the difficulty back. It proved to be a far more elastic concept than we thought, and the old Ricardian economic cycle that depended on grain crops just does not obtain in quite the same way today. So while I am sure that the Office for Budget Responsibility may well wish to opine on these matters, and it will be quite interesting to know what it thinks, it is of secondary importance in setting government policy. Indeed, because of its somewhat nebulous nature, I would not want us to put too much weight on it again.

[Lord Sassoon]

I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, for his support for government Amendment 9, but let me say a few things in respect of Amendments 8 and 10 because my noble friend Lord Higgins has raised important issues. I agree with the spirit of the amendments in both cases, and I shall try to do justice to the points he has raised by explaining how I think the matters are or should be dealt with.

Amendment 8 concerns the question of economic and fiscal forecasts. On fiscal forecasts, a comparison is actually not possible because the Bank does not produce such a forecast. Rather, it incorporates the official fiscal forecast now produced by the OBR into its own economic forecasts, which reflects the expertise within the OBR and the information that the office as opposed to the Bank has access to. So that is dealt with because there is no comparison to be made.

Finance and Insurance Market: Underwriting Fees

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Wednesday 12th January 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I am happy to acknowledge that the noble Lord also has a distinguished history in this area. As well as being a fund manager, he wrote a report for the DTI in February 2005, so there are lots of poachers turned gamekeepers out there in the jungle. We should wait to see what the OFT recommends. It can recommend a range of actions, which could include matters coming back to government. I and my colleagues in government would then follow them up in the appropriate way.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that the Ferrans report is yet another demonstration of the fact that if bankers are left to their own devices they behave in an uncompetitive way? While certain aspects of the report are being considered and are relevant to the OFT, it makes a number of suggestions about how some EU financial services directives could be strengthened to improve the sector and its competitiveness. Will the Minister give an undertaking that before the OFT reports, and in its ongoing discussions in Brussels, it will take forward the proposals in the Ferrans report to ensure that transparency and competition are promoted?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, as I have already said, it is expected that the Office of Fair Trading will report later this month, so we do not have long to wait. We should consider what the appropriate action is to take after my ministerial colleagues have had a chance to consider the recommendations of the OFT report. However, I hear what my noble friend says.

Air Passenger Duty

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Tuesday 11th January 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, the Government have not proposed anything yet. The coalition agreement talks about a change from APD to a per plane basis. Clearly, different constructions of the duty have different effects on usage of aircraft and on the environment. However, as I say, the Government have not proposed anything yet. We are in listening mode. The effect on the airlines, environmental effects and competitiveness are all issues that must be considered.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that the APD is seen to be particularly unfair on the Caribbean? Will he ensure that as part of the review which the Government are undertaking, particular attention is given to the effect of the APD on the Caribbean, not just on the tourist industry there, which is increasingly important as a proportion of its economic activity, but on the Caribbean diaspora who live in the UK?

[Lord Sassoon]

I am grateful to my noble friend for drawing attention to the Caribbean. The Caribbean Tourism Organisation has produced a very helpful report as a contribution to the debate. I have met the Heads of Government of the dependent territories in the Caribbean, so I have heard first hand their strength of feeling in respect of this issue. However, under the Chicago Convention we have to have an objective basis for distinguishing between one country and another.

EU: Budget

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Monday 10th January 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby]

When was the last year that DWP got a clean audit opinion?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I cannot tell the House that but I am very happy to write with the information. I think that it involves different auditing standards and a different structure but I shall be very happy to confirm that.

Banking: Liability.

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Tuesday 7th December 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I cannot comment on the pension arrangements. I believe they took place before the previous election, and I am no position to comment on the pension arrangements for former directors of RBS. As regards the other matters, if there are any complaints about any regulated firm, I am sure the FSA will be, as it always is, open to looking into any complaints that are made.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, does the Minister agree with the FSA and the report that RBS under Sir Fred Goodwin was properly governed? If he does, will he explain what he thinks a failure of corporate governance might look like?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I have not conducted an investigation into RBS. The FSA has, and it published a summary note on 2 December. It is clearly regrettable that we do not see the full report, but I should point out that the really important consequences of this are the change in the regulatory landscape that was brought to our attention by the noble Lord, Lord Haskel, and the fact that the Independent Commission on Banking is looking at the structure of banking in this country, so there are important ongoing inquiries that the RBS saga bears on.

IMF and World Bank: Appointment Procedures

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Wednesday 1st December 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I said at the outset that the improvements to the processes for appointing the heads of these organisations must be part of wider reform packages for the entire governance of the IMF and the World Bank. Progress is being made on that in the quota shares, the voting arrangements and the governance arrangements. Equally, it is critical that, under the new arrangements, the four BRIC countries are in the top 10 voting and quota share countries, so we will have a much better balance in both voting and representation. It is equally important that the UK remains a top five member and that we retain our board seat.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, does the Minister accept that these top appointments are intensely political? Therefore, simply having a process that is called “open and transparent” will not guarantee that the best person gets the job. Would it not be sensible, as the noble Lord, Lord Stern, said, for the British Government to make it clear at this stage that they expect the next head of the IMF and the World Bank not to be a European or an American?

[Lord Sassoon]

I can only restate the position of the Government: these appointments should be made regardless of nationality or gender.

Budget Responsibility and National Audit Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Wednesday 1st December 2010 Grand Committee

[Lord Myners]

So, the OBR will have its own information staff—it will not be relying on the Treasury for that. Of the 13 people, there is now minus one who is doing FOI; minus two was a PA. I must note that when the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, was an employee of UBS Warburg, he probably had more than 13 PAs, let alone 13 staff. Can he confirm that that number now includes a freedom of information officer in the OBR, and that it does not rely on the Treasury for that function?

[Lord Newby]

Surely there is an easy solution: make the PA also responsible for freedom of information.

[Lord Sassoon]

It is clearly up to Robert Chote how he deploys his staff and what they do. Noble Lords obviously have not quite grasped what is meant by the independence of the OBR. It means that it is for the office to organise its life. I have not the faintest idea how it will do it, but I am sure that it will do it professionally and appropriately and that it will devote the necessary resources.

In answer to another question, I was going to quote from page 3 of the OBR report to summarise the contacts that it has had in the build-up to producing its 150 pages, but the noble Lord, Lord Turnbull, has already pointed to the key paragraph. The OBR made it clear that it would publish the list of contacts, which, as it promised, is coming out this week, shortly after the publication of the report.

Nothing in the Bill stops the OBR publishing any minutes, reports or documents of any kind that it wants to. As well as focusing on the critical point that we should not require it to produce minutes for the sake of minutes when the output is forecasts rather than policy-making discussions, it is also important that we should recognise that if it wants to disclose anything about the way in which it goes about its business, it is entirely free to do so. It can draw on external expertise. It might have committees with external experts. There is nothing to preclude that. The core executive functions cannot be delegated, though, and the minimum output will be the two formal reports per year. However, it is already also producing a considerable amount of other information, and it will do so in future. It is for the office to be as transparent as it thinks is appropriate, consistent with its mandate.

I do not for one minute take this to be a trivial point. I made the comparison with the MPC because it is critical. However, the amendments would require the OBR and the BRC to do a number of things that on the one hand are not required—consistent with the principles of accountability, transparency and independence—and, on the other, would put minor straitjackets on it that are not necessary because it should be free to publish whatever it sees fit to publish.

This has been an interesting discussion. I am sympathetic to some of the objectives that are desired, but I am afraid that the amendments in this group do not add anything to the underlying purposes, which I understand are well intentioned. I ask noble Lords not to press their amendments.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Sassoon]

Perhaps I may try again. Under Clause 4(1) it is the duty of the office to examine and report on the sustainability of the public finances. For the reasons explained by the noble Lord, Lord Burns, it would be difficult to report on the sustainability of the public finances without having regard to a lot of things, including—critically and at the centre—government economic policy. That links to what is laid out in the charter. If there is any doubt about whether the office will take account of government economic policies, as opposed to any other economic policies, we should look at Clause 5 for guidance on how the main duty is to be performed. The first point, which is important, is that the office has complete discretion, subject to certain subsections. Therefore, there will be a raft of approaches and other considerations that it can bring in if it considers them to be relevant.

We may then go on to subsection (3), having established that the OBR could not exercise its main duty without having regard to economic policies. Clause 5(3) makes it abundantly clear that when it looks at economic and other policies, it must have regard to any relevant government policies—not just economic policies, or economic policies defined in the widest sense by the noble Lord, Lord Burns. Under Clause 4, the office must have regard to economic policy; otherwise, how on earth would it start to look at sustainability? Clause 5(3) makes it clear that the policies that it must have regard to are not alternative policies but the policies of the Government. It is clear if one follows it through.

[Lord Newby]

Everybody agrees on the substance. The problem is that the Minister is trying to turn words that are inelegant and the wrong way round to mean what we all agree on. Without wishing to claim the fee of a parliamentary counsel, it seems to me that we could deal with this simply by redrafting subsection (3) to read: “The office must perform that duty, taking account of any government policies that are relevant to the performance of that duty. It may not consider…”

Autumn Forecast

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Monday 29th November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, earlier on I thought I heard the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, describe 2010 as the year of Labour policies, but he said it so sotto voce that I left it there. The noble Lord, Lord Soley, now talks about the strength of the economy this year as being down to the previous Government’s policies. I remind noble Lords of what the OBR says about the reason why growth is now forecast by it to be much stronger in 2010 than had been previously forecast. It is principally down to the confidence of industry in restocking. That position has changed in its forecasts since June. I wonder where that confidence comes from. It comes from the fact that we came in in May and took immediate and decisive action to get the economy under control, which has resulted in British business restocking because it knows that sustained growth is coming. Let us stop going on about this and celebrate the fact that the growth is there and that industry has the confidence to understand precisely that.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, can the Minister confirm that, at the end of this period, with job losses in the public sector being 160,000 fewer than was predicted earlier on in the year, there will in fact be over 350,000 more people working in the public sector than when the Labour Government came into office in 1997? Can he also give an estimate of how much less the reduction in private sector employment will be as a result of this revised forecast over the forecast in June?

[Lord Sassoon]

I am very grateful to my noble friend. I can confirm the figures that he quoted. The relevance is that, for all the rebalancing of the economy that we are doing and the very significant rebalancing of the welfare system, the shift of jobs out of the public sector is now very significantly below what was achieved even within the past 20 years in the early 1990s. Therefore, we should have confidence in the productive capability of the private sector to absorb that number of jobs many times over. I can only stand by the figures for the net increase of employment that are set out by the OBR in its tables.

Budget Responsibility and National Audit Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Monday 29th November 2010 Grand Committee

[Lord Newby]

Just as a point of clarification for the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, Clause 1(7) states:

“The Charter (or the modified Charter) does not come into force until it has been approved by a resolution of the House of Commons”,

so it has at least vestigial parliamentary scrutiny.

[Lord Sassoon]

I shall explain the way I see it and deal with the things that may be relevant this afternoon. We are talking about the charter, which we have produced in draft to aid scrutiny of the Bill. I hope that people will think that that is helpful. There were, quite rightly, demands to see it, which is why we produced it a week ahead of the Committee stage. It will be formally laid in another place following Royal Assent to the Bill, so it necessarily remains in draft until that point. We will listen carefully and, if there are issues that touch on the charter that could in our judgment improve the drafting, we will take them on board.

The relevance of the charter is how it fits with the architecture relating to the responsibilities of the OBR. We also have to remember that certain things in the charter do not directly relate to the fiscal mandate but are background information to it. I take the point that we should not get too far into discussions of irrelevant things, but intergenerational fairness is part of the fiscal objective that is in there as background information to the fiscal mandate, which comes in the subsequent paragraphs and links directly to the responsibilities of the Office for Budget Responsibility. The noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, is correct that intergenerational fairness can take on different definitions, but here we are using the term in a fiscal context to mean that future generations should not be burdened by deficits or the cost of servicing debts accumulated to pay for consumption by current or previous generations.

Ireland: Financial Assistance

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Monday 22nd November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I am not going to provide a commentary on the Irish economy. As I said when I repeated the Statement, Ireland will come forward with its own budget. It is for the Irish Government to explain their own economic policies in this difficult situation, and for the conditions of the loan to be appropriate to the circumstances.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, we on these Benches welcome the Government's decision to support the bailout. I am depressed but not surprised that the Chancellor feels that if he is giving support via a European fund, that is not to be welcomed, whereas if he is signing the cheque directly from the British Exchequer, that is great. However, no doubt that is politics. Perhaps I may take up the question of the noble Lord, Lord Reid, and the Minister's response, on the subject of the IMF and conditionality. As the Minister said, the IMF has a long track record of conditionality on the loans that it has made. Sometimes the conditions have been extremely contentious. What can the Minister say about the loan conditions that are being discussed? For example, have the partners who are making the loan pressed Ireland on its tax rates?

[Lord Sassoon]

I am grateful to my noble friend for his questions. In response to his first observation, I point out that the Government do not accept the general principle that we should participate alongside eurozone members in bailing out eurozone countries. When it comes to putting in place the permanent bailout arrangements that will be discussed in Europe in the coming months, it is the intention of the coalition Government that we should not be part of any such arrangements. The normal process should be that the eurozone is responsible for its own processes. I cannot go into any more detail of the terms of the package which is being negotiated, but my right honourable friend the Chancellor has said that he will come back to another place when he has more to report.

Health: Private Medical Insurance

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Monday 15th November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I am happy to confirm the really critical point, which is that the National Health Service is available to the population as a whole and that this is therefore an area in which the nation has access to the best-quality healthcare. If, on top of that, people wish to invest their money in private healthcare policies, it is important that those policies work effectively. However, as the noble Baroness points out, it is critical that the health service is there for everyone. As she raises the question of complaints, it is worth pointing out that the complaints that are relevant to this Question are those that go to the Financial Services Authority or the Financial Ombudsman Service. The latest figures that I have are for 2008. There were 514 complaints to the Financial Ombudsman Service in that year, of which 170 were upheld, and that represents one complaint upheld for every 8,000 people treated under private medical insurance.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, the Minister says that the FSA is content that the system is working well. However, does he accept that many people who feel that they have been let down by their policies do not share that view? As the noble Lord, Lord Crisp, pointed out last week, this problem seems to be more general than just one or two people not reading their instructions properly. Could the Minister possibly go back to the FSA and ask it to look at this problem again in the light of the concerns that have been raised about it in recent months?

[Lord Sassoon]

I thank my noble friend for raising that point. Of course I am happy to convey to the FSA the points that have been raised this afternoon.

Taxation: Deficit Reduction

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Thursday 28th October 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I will cite the latest figure this week for quarterly growth in the economy. The naysayers said that growth in the last quarter would be 0.4 per cent, but it was 0.8 per cent, coming on top of 1.2 per cent in the previous quarter. With more than 300,000 new private sector jobs created in the second quarter, that is the way in which we will deal with the economic situation.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, I am sure that the whole House will welcome the announcement this week of an agreement between the UK and Switzerland to tax adequately for the first time bank accounts held in Switzerland by UK citizens. Will the Government press for these accounts to be taxed at 50 per cent, equivalent to what these people would be paying on their income if they were living here and their accounts were here?

EU: Economic Governance

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Wednesday 27th October 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, if anybody proposes a treaty change that has not yet been proposed, it will be considered on its merits. To be completely clear, any proposed treaty change that has any suggestion of transferring powers from the UK to Europe will be subject to a referendum. If something is proposed, we will look at it on its merits and respond accordingly.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, does the Minister find it strange that the UK is in the unique position of being able to impose fines on everybody else within the EU in co-operation with other EU member states and yet, however fiscally ill disciplined a future UK Government might be, the EU cannot impose sanctions against us? Are there any effective pressures under this set of proposals that, in future, the EU will be able to bring to bear against a British Government who were behaving profligately?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I welcome the question from my noble friend. It enables me to restate that it is perfectly right and proper that the UK should be subject, as it is, to the financial disciplines of the stability system in the EU. This means that we are required to exercise fiscal discipline. Indeed, the July council expressed itself satisfied. It said that the new UK Government’s proposals for deficit reduction were adequate to meet our responsibilities. It is quite right that we should go that far but, equally, we are not members of the eurozone. The system of sanctions that applies in the eurozone escalates to fines, as my noble friend said. The sanctions can start by requiring interest-bearing deposits, then non-interest-bearing deposits and finally fines. It is completely appropriate that those should apply to the eurozone and not to the UK.

Public Expenditure: Value for Money

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Tuesday 26th October 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that the effectiveness of public expenditure would be greatly enhanced by the abolition of the 4,000-plus central government targets over local government that was announced by the Chancellor last week? Will the Minister look at adopting a similar approach to other parts of the public sector, including the police and NHS, so that front-line staff can spend most of their time serving the public rather than completing unnecessary bureaucratic paperwork?

[Lord Sassoon]

I completely agree with my noble friend that the overlay of unnecessary, wasteful targetry that the last Government imposed absolutely detracted from the fundamental consideration of value for money. To emphasise the point, it was not just over 4,000 but 4,700 targets that were swept away from local authorities, enabling them to get on better and do what really matters for citizens.

Housing: Shared Ownership

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Monday 25th October 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

The Financial Services Authority is, indeed, appointed by Ministers and has a high degree of reporting to all its stakeholders, including Parliament. The Government do not believe that the model of tripartite regulation which we inherited from the previous Government is at all appropriate. Therefore, the FSA will go under the legislation which we will be bringing forward and we will have a completely new system of accountability for financial services regulation which we think is more appropriate.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that the large number of different affordable housing schemes offered by the Homes and Communities Agency are confusing to lenders, developers and, ultimately, to the buyers they are supposed to be helping? Will the Government undertake to rationalise the schemes that the HCA currently offers?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I am wary of straying too far from financial regulation into housing policy areas but I will ask my ministerial colleagues in the Department for Communities and Local Government to write to my noble friend on that point.

Pensions

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Thursday 21st October 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I can confirm that we want to push on with our proposals for financial education underpinning choices about retirement savings and other important financial services. The Consumer Financial Education Body has been asked by the Government to work up its plans for an annual health check. It publishes a guide on retirement savings. I certainly take the point very well.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, following on from that question, does the Minister accept that the key problem with people deciding which annuity to purchase is often that they are not experts and want impartial advice at that point? That is why the Consumer Financial Education Body is so important. Will he redouble the Government’s efforts to get the Consumer Financial Education Body to develop an online tool so that people who are looking to decide which annuity they purchase can go not only to the company from which they are taking their pension pot but also to someone who is clearly impartial?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I agree with my noble friend that we need to look at all options to make it easier for people to access online and other sources of independent advice. The CFEB was a significant initiative of the previous Government and we are encouraging it to press forward on this issue.

Comprehensive Spending Review

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Wednesday 20th October 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, a lot of attention has rightly been paid to the effect that the Statement will have on public sector employment. Will the Treasury urge all departments to examine a range of measures, such as part-time working and a complete freeze on bonuses and increments, all of which have already been widely adopted in the private sector and would have the effect of reducing to a minimum the number of public sector job losses?

[Lord Sassoon]

I thank my noble friend Lord Newby for drawing attention to the fact that departments will be encouraged to take the maximum opportunity of flexibility in pay and other conditions in the way that he described to mitigate the effects of the inevitable job reductions in the public sector. We will also be introducing a number of other measures to mitigate those job losses, which of course we very much regret. For example, we are introducing the regional growth fund and there is the protection that comes with the wider pension reforms. With assistance from Jobcentre Plus, there will be a further range of measures to mitigate the effects of the job losses in the public sector.

Taxation: Income Tax

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Monday 11th October 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, as my noble friend points out, this is another part of the inheritance which we are getting on with having to tidy up. On his specific questions, I can only apologise to the taxpayers who are caught up in this reconciliation exercise. We are trying to make the process as painless as possible. The bills for those owing less than £300 are being written off. That will entail a cost of some £600 million. The cost of the overall exercise, in which 90,000 letters a day are going out between now and Christmas to clear it up, will be up to £10 million.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, in the light of the very low rates of interest involved in this procedure, does the Minister accept that for most taxpayers, what matters most is not the rate of interest but the speed with which repayments are made? Can he give the House an assurance that HMRC is taking every possible step to make repayments as quickly as possible?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, it is worth reminding ourselves that the great majority of PAYE self-assessments are done online—by 75 per cent of people who are self-assessed. For that largest group of taxpayers, repayments are in the ordinary course made as soon as two to three working days from filing, although there may be a slight delay in the peak in the year around 31 January. For the sort of exercise we are talking about, repayments are normally made within seven working days. That is indeed the thing to focus on rather more than the precise rate of interest.

Bank of England: Economic Forecast

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Wednesday 6th October 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, forecasting is not an exact science, which is why, among other things, the Treasury looks at a wide range of forecasts. Indeed, the Treasury publishes regularly the whole range of forecasts that are out in the market. The Bank of England, to its credit, annually reviews its own record in forecasting. The noble Lord may look, if he has not done so already, at a detailed analysis, which is in the August inflation report, of exactly how well the Bank of England’s previous record of forecasting has gone.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, has the Minister read Sir Terry Leahy’s comments today? He says that the UK is not heading for a double-dip recession and the economy will be pulled into a stable rebound by the Asian economies. Will the Government redouble their efforts to promote trade with those Asian economies, since they will clearly play a major part in enabling us to grow sustainably in the future?

[Lord Sassoon]

I am grateful to my noble friend for drawing our attention to the important words of Sir Terry Leahy, the chief executive of our largest retailer. It confirms the remarks of such bodies as the CBI, which now says that the prospect of the UK going back into recession is unlikely, and the ringing endorsement on 27 September of the IMF.

On the second part of my noble friend’s question, it is an absolute priority of the Government to do everything we can to promote trade with the Asian and other economies. I took advantage of the House not sitting in September to visit India and the Gulf to do precisely that. Many of my ministerial colleagues have been doing exactly the same thing.

Debt Management Office

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Tuesday 20th July 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, there are some big questions. I will try to bring the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, back to the Debt Management Office and the Bank of England, which will make it more manageable. In the context of a fragile banking system, it is very important that the objectives on monetary policy of the Bank of England, including its ability which it exercised up to £200 billion to use quantitative easing as a way of fulfilling its monetary policy objective, are kept separated from the equally critical role of the Debt Management Office. Thanks to the deficit left to us by the previous Government, it had to issue more than £200 billion of debt last year, which compares with £8 billion in 1998-99. They both have challenging objectives and separation in that sense is very important.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, given the decision yesterday by National Savings & Investments to withdraw its index-linked bond, have the Government any plans to review the strategy of NS&I and, in particular, its scope for generating funds to help meet the Government’s overall funding target?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, we consider carefully each year and publish transparently the mandates for the Debt Management Office, but consider in that context the remit that we give to NS&I. Its essential task is to contribute in a cost-effective manner to debt raising. It has to look against the targets for debt raising, which we give it, at the appropriate product set that it offers to the public. It is in that context that it periodically withdraws or introduces new products.

EU: Financial Assistance to Member States

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Monday 19th July 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, will the Minister confirm that, despite the predictions of the noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch, and others, the action taken by the EU in respect of the euro has meant that in recent days it has strengthened in relation to the dollar?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I have not had this kind of stereophonic or quadraphonic experience before.

I note what my noble friend says about strengthening currencies but it is not the Government’s practice to comment on movements in the currency markets.

Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 (Contribution to Costs of Special Resolution Regime) Regulations 2010

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Monday 19th July 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby]

The noble Lord, Lord Davies, and I have spent many happy hours discussing FSMA, whether we called it that or something else. This is a continuation or conclusion of one aspect of those deliberations and we are content with the statutory instrument before us. However, this is one small part in the overall new regulatory framework under which the banks will operate, of which the new capital adequacy requirements under Basel is another and the establishment of the EU banking supervisory body, which we gather may be located in London, is yet another. Will the Minister take this opportunity to update the House on some of those wider developments? Do the Government feel that, as we are getting our own house in order, the international framework that everybody agrees is necessary to supplement domestic arrangements is also moving forward at a reasonable and acceptable speed?

[Lord Sassoon]

Well, we have gone from Sturm und Drang to something else and, if I can spread a little joy by introducing the term FSMA, I am happy to do so.

I shall be brief. As the last three years have shown, banks and building societies can fail. The Banking Act 2009 provides for a system of bank resolution that is more flexible than simply liquidating the failed institution, using insolvency law and paying, if necessary, compensation to depositors who would have lost money in the process. Bank resolutions can be costly but they can save the Financial Services Compensation Scheme from having to make compensation payments to the depositors from the institution concerned. It is right, therefore, that the FSCS should have to contribute towards resolution costs and it is equally right that contribution to such costs should be capped at the cost of the compensation that it would otherwise have had to pay, taking into account recoveries that it would be expected to make. These regulations do not change those principles but ensure that they can be correctly applied in the real world, where bank resolutions take time and the FSCS would have to borrow heavily to fund compensation payouts. There is, of course, a lot of technical detail in the regulations—that is inevitable—but the basic idea is simple. The reason for the large amount of technical detail, in answer to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, is that checking the accounts is not simple.

I do not know how properly to address the points made by my noble friend Lord Newby, who would like to use this opportunity to hear about wider developments in EU and international financial regulation. The only point that I make now is that, of course, the question of bank resolution and particularly of globally significant systemic institutions is one on which the G20 Ministers are focusing at the moment. In our small way, tidying up the FSCS regulations fits into a wider picture of the direction of travel and the focus of the global regulatory developments.

Office for Budget Responsibility

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Tuesday 6th July 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, in answer to the first question, I am sorry to pour cold water on a newspaper story, but Sir Alan always planned to leave in the summer. He was appointed to provide forecasts for the emergency Budget and to advise on the establishment of a permanent OBR, which is exactly what he has done and will continue to do. The noble Lord, Lord Barnett, asked, secondly, about what he described as “uncertainty” around the forecast. The whole point about the way in which the OBR has presented its forecast is that it has given a transparent probability distribution. The Treasury has never done that before in its forecasts; it has simply given a line and not explained the variability around it. Forecasts are of course subject to probability distributions and the OBR has followed the best practice for forecasts that the Bank of England and others have used for many years. As to what will happen if the forecasts change, the Chancellor has set a fiscal mandate and it is the responsibility of the OBR following each Budget or other fiscal event to report on whether his latest announcement still sets a course that has a 50 per cent or greater probability of meeting the mandate.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that it is vital for the OBR not just that it is independent but that it is seen to be independent? As the Government bring forward their detailed proposals for the OBR, will they ensure that, for example, it is housed outside the Treasury building and that all appointments to it are publicly advertised?

[Lord Sassoon]

I thank my noble friend for reminding us that independence is at the core of what the OBR is about and key to its permanent design. The Chancellor will shortly receive the advice of Sir Alan Budd on the setting-up of the OBR and I am sure that Sir Alan will consider the various factors that my noble friend mentioned.

Wealth

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Monday 5th July 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, there are simply some measures that, in the present fiscal position, are unaffordable. The child trust fund, regrettably, falls into that category. However, to ensure that children at greatest risk are protected, we have introduced above-indexation rises in child tax credit. If noble Lords look at the new tables set out in the Budget document on pages 64 to 70, they will see that the effect is progressive across all income bands.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, does the Minister accept that one way to stop disparities in wealth growing disproportionately is for the wealthy to pay their taxes? The Government have at long last announced a review looking at the possibility of introducing a general anti-avoidance rule. Will the Minister assure the House that this review will be finished in time for legislation on this matter to be introduced in the next finance Bill?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, the coalition agreement indeed commits the Government to make every effort to tackle tax avoidance. There was a Budget press notice on eight initiatives that we are taking. One is to examine whether the option of a general anti-avoidance rule should form one element of strengthened defences against avoidance. I assure my noble friend that there will be informal consultations on this possible anti-avoidance rule over the summer.

Health: Private Insurance

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Wednesday 30th June 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I think that the scope of the Question is rather specific. It is about industry codes of practice and the adherence of private health insurance companies to those codes of practice. The noble Lord raises important issues, but they are rather outside the scope of the Question.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, how many complaints relating to medical insurance companies have been received by the Financial Ombudsman Service over the past year? How many of those complaints were upheld?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Newby. On the basis of the published information from the Financial Ombudsman Service for the latest available year, 2009-10, there were 2,026 complaints relating to health and medical insurance companies, which was an 8 per cent increase on the previous year. About one-third of those cases were found in favour of the complainant, overturning the original decision of the company concerned.

Government: Savings

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Thursday 24th June 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I have not been here very long but I know that I would be foolish to get into off-the-cuff answers on admin costs for the Palace of Westminster. Rather than waste time giving the noble Lord a definition of what is included, I shall write to him.

[Lord Newby]

Will the Minister ensure that, when looking for savings, he does not only do so within departments but seeks to reduce duplication of function between departments and quangos by implementing the principles of the Total Place programme more generally across government?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that; we will indeed look right across government in the way that he suggested. The definition of what constitutes admin costs will itself be considered in the spending review and reported at that time.

Economy: Growth

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Tuesday 22nd June 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, today my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer announced that the spending review will be presented on20 October. As we go through the spending review, it is clearly important that the long-term prosperity and growth of this country are underpinned by appropriate decisions. We have announced today, as I said, that infrastructure will not be cut further. I take the point, put by the noble Lord, Lord Broers, that science spending is also very important to underpinning the long-term growth of the UK.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, the Chancellor of the Exchequer said today that he was establishing a large regional growth fund to provide finance for regional capital projects. Can the Minister give some indication of what is meant by “large”? Can he also say whether there will be some private sector involvement in deciding priorities under the fund, a principle that underpins the RDAs, and that such decisions will not be put purely in the hands of unelected regional bureaucrats?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for drawing attention to the regional growth package in today’s Budget announcement. It is intended that the regional growth fund will pump prime investments into projects with significant growth potential. There will be a consultation later in the summer about how we plan for sub-national growth, which will include local economic partnerships. A White Paper will follow.

Public Expenditure: Review of Commitments

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Thursday 17th June 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, for his comments, but we really do need to get back to the central point today, which is that the previous Government left us with a series of projects that are unaffordable and in many cases present poor value for money. We need to do this. There are huge pressures on public expenditure, which are going to be looked at in the round through the spending review, but we have to take off the further pressures that have been put on by projects that simply cannot be justified. That will provide us with a much better baseline from which decisions made in the Budget next week and then in the spending round going forward can be taken to protect what really matters—projects that present good opportunities to invest in sustainable growth in the future. That is absolutely central and the announcement today helps to contribute to it.

In the short term, I cannot stress enough that to pay for these projects the previous Government were relying on an assumption that £7 billion of underspend would be made in the current year. That is approximately 1.8 per cent of DEL expenditure, but the evidence of recent years shows that the underspend has been reducing to what is estimated to be less than 1 per cent of DEL in 2009-10. The issue is not whether these projects stack up as value for money but that there is simply no money left to pay for them.

I would like to make a point about Stonehenge. I would hate anyone to be left with the thought that we are somehow abolishing Stonehenge or knocking it down—I see that the noble Lord agrees with that. Of course it would be nice to enhance the visitor centre, but unfortunately this is a project that does not stack up in the current circumstances.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that probably the most depressing part of this Statement is the issue that he was just discussing—that billions of pounds of commitments relied on underspend or access to the reserve? Was that not a series of decisions which could have been taken only by a Government who knew that they could not win an election and which therefore represents a poison pill for their successors? Can the Minister ensure that, at the time of the Budget, the total component of that expenditure is set out so that we can see what it is? Can he also make sure that all departments understand that, in the future, they simply cannot get away with that kind of sharp practice?

[Lord Sassoon]

I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Newby. I agree completely with his analysis and that the numbers should be set out. As far as the reserve is concerned, I reinforce my hope that everyone in this House will agree that the reserve needs to be kept for genuine emergencies and new pressures that may result, particularly from military operations in Afghanistan.

Banking Reform

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Thursday 17th June 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, our concerns about plans to abolish the FSA in the run-up to the election centred, first, on our concern that the governor was not the person to be in charge of micro-prudential regulation and, secondly, that there would be a long period of hiatus in which there would be no continuity in senior management on financial regulations. We are greatly reassured by the fact that Hector Sants has been persuaded to stay on to deal with the second problem and, given his new position, will be able to deal largely with the first. Can the Minister reassure us that both the Government’s and the Governor’s top priority over the next few months will be to ensure that as many of the senior members of the FSA staff as possible remain in place to work with Hector Sants and to ensure the continuity which everybody thinks is so important?

[Lord Sassoon]

I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Newby for pointing out, very helpfully, how the Government’s programme in this area has taken account of some of his concerns from before the election. On the transition, it might be helpful if I additionally confirm that the FSA will remain the financial services regulator until the legislation is implemented, so it is quite clear who will be doing what. I am grateful to my noble friend for stressing the management arrangements and I will relay to both the Bank and the FSA his concern that they do what is of course a high priority—to make sure that they retain the essential and extremely good staff they have in both organisations.

Financial Services Regulation

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Wednesday 16th June 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I should point out to the noble Lord, Lord Barnett, that the Bank of England was indeed drawing attention in its financial stability reports to the debt crisis and some of the looming debt problems, but did not have the tools to deal with it. In his Mansion House speech in June 2009, the governor himself commented that even under the partially patched up regime that the previous Government put in place,

“it is not entirely clear how the Bank would be able to discharge its new statutory responsibility if we can do no more than issue sermons and organise burials”.

It is all very well having some of the new tools in place, but they need to be in the right hands—those of someone who can bring the responsibilities together.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, following the question of the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, I underline the importance of the Government proceeding with speed in this area. The Minister will be aware that a number of senior staff at the FSA have announced their intention to leave that body and that morale there is extremely low. Can he impress upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer the need to proceed quickly with institutional changes so that the period of uncertainty—and, therefore, the period during which supervision is undertaken with less rigour than we would wish—is minimised?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Newby for drawing further attention to the fact that we need to deal in an appropriate way with all the personnel issues. The system has failed but there are extremely good officials in the Bank of England, the FSA and elsewhere working on these matters. It is imperative that we act as sensitively as we can to enable them to carry on with their important work, particularly at a time of continuing financial fragility. While there will be a tension with the desire for speed, the need for legislation and so on, we are discussing these points with both the Governor and the chairman and chief executive of the FSA.

Office for Budget Responsibility

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Monday 14th June 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord for the clarification, but to compare the process around the formulation of a report by the OBR with the release of numbers by the ONS is to compare chalk and cheese.

[Lord Newby]

I begin by agreeing with the noble Lord, Lord Desai, who said that what is most welcome about this report is the extent to which it explains the uncertainties that the Government face in producing detailed economic forecasts. I also find the fan charts very welcome. It is extraordinary that the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, finds them risible when they are used, as the Minister said, by the Bank of England and reflect a better view of reality than a single headline figure.

When the Office for Budget Responsibility was being established, the Government said that its members would be available to give evidence to relevant parliamentary committees. Given the importance of the work of the office, will the Minister urge its members to come before the relevant committee of your Lordships’ House—namely, the Economic Affairs Committee—so that there can be a forensic discussion of their work, along the lines that noble Lords would clearly like to see?

[Lord Sassoon]

I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Newby. I will certainly pass on his request that members of the OBR come forward as he suggested. I am sure they would want to. It would reinforce the fact that, as they clearly set out in the foreword to their document, all the judgments in the forecast have been made or agreed by the Office for Budget Responsibility. There has been no ministerial involvement, so it would be entirely right that the office, rather than Treasury Ministers or anybody else, should answer for its forecasts.

Individual Savings Accounts

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby

Wednesday 9th June 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for his welcoming remarks, and for pointing out the advantages that AIM shares carry. That allows me to make the point, for those who would like to see AIM shares included in ISAs, that the consequential could be that AIM shares, if one follows through his logic, would lose some other benefits, principally that of inheritance tax relief benefit.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, within 10 days we are going to have a Budget which will contain much more complicated issues than this which the Government will have to take time to look at and reach a decision on. For this purpose, can I suggest to the Minister that his definition of “in due course” might mean the next Budget day?

[Lord Sassoon]

I wish I could say “in due course” in another way. However, I can only reconfirm my previous Answer.