Cableway Installations (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Debate between Lord Rosser and Lord Teverson

Thursday 26th September 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, I was tempted to ask whether this included zipwires, to make sure that people going down them got to the bottom. More importantly, I know from my own family that there are more high-wire facilities in parks and adventure parks. Children go on them above the trees; they are great for exploration and daring. Does this include that type of facility? I should probably have listened to the Minister even more carefully. Who inspects these facilities now? Is it local authorities? How is it done? How are we sure that the regulations, whatever they are, are not just enforced but checked? I suspect that these facilities will increase in number over the years.

I am quite concerned that because pre-1896 cableways are termed cultural, we therefore do not particularly worry about health and safety around them. Perhaps the Minister would like to explain that as well.

[Lord Rosser (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for explaining the purposes and objectives of these regulations dealing with the components necessary for the installation of cableways. They seek to establish parallel processes to those in the EU in the event of a no-deal Brexit. Ensuring the safety of cableways is obviously critically important, and we support the instrument’s purpose.

The instrument allows for the Health and Safety Executive and the Health and Safety Executive Northern Ireland to take over the role of enforcement body. As I understand it, the UK Accreditation Service will then ensure that an assessment is made by an approved body so that the components for installation meet the required standard. As the Minister said, the setting of standards in the event of no deal will now sit with the Secretary of State as a new extended power.

Passenger and Goods Vehicles (Tachographs) (Amendment etc.) Regulations 2019

Debate between Lord Rosser and Lord Teverson

Thursday 26th September 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, I was privileged to be in the freight industry for some 20 years and tachographs were always around then, so I think they go back beyond the 1980s. I remember admiring the skill of my staff in looking at the wax discs that were the original tachographs. They could tell just by a glance exactly what that driver had been doing during his or her shift. I welcome, however, the fact that technology moves on here.

I have two questions. I realise that, as the Minister said, this is not a Brexit issue. She rightly emphasises the safety aspect of these regulations. Yet on the political side of the withdrawal agreement, the Government are trying to renegotiate standards in all sorts of ways so they are not tied to European ones. Can the Minister guarantee post Brexit that drivers’ hours will not be lengthened or public safety worsened? That is incredibly important.

The Minister will also be aware that the freight industry has changed hugely over the last 10 years, with e-commerce and the way supply chains and distribution channels work. I guess that the area of safety we are most concerned about is fast-driving white vans and the pressure put on many delivery drivers to meet targets of up to 120 deliveries a day. In my day, that would have been almost impossible. I will be interested to hear the Minister’s comments on how the Government will ensure that the white-van delivery sector is as safe as its elder brother and sister—if you like—such as by bringing the vehicle weight limit down to include tachographs in other categories of vehicles.

[Lord Rosser (Lab)]

I once again thank the Minister for explaining the purpose and effect of these regulations. As has been said, the obligations and requirements in relation to the construction, installation, use, testing and control of tachographs are set out in EU Regulation 165/2014, with the enforcement provisions for these obligations and requirements in the Transport Act 1968 and subsequent regulations made under those provisions.

EU Regulation 165/2014 also provided for detailed provisions relating to new smart tachographs, to be set out in further implementing Acts. Those implementing Acts were adopted via Commission implementation regulation, which came into force on 2 March 2016 and provided for the new smart tachograph requirements to apply in respect of relevant vehicles first registered in member states from 15 June 2019.

As the Minister said, in domestic law, where a vehicle is required to be fitted with a tachograph, that tachograph must have been installed, comply with or be used in accordance with EU Regulation 165/2014, with a person using a vehicle in breach of any one of those requirements having committed an offence. As has been said, these provisions need to be updated so that they may also apply to breaches of the new smart tachograph requirements applicable from 15 June 2019.

I want to raise one query, which may show that I have not really understood the regulations particularly well. Why was this SI not approved prior to 15 June 2019? If the new smart tachograph requirements apply in respect of relevant vehicles first registered in member states from 15 June 2019, and we have not had the enforcement mechanism, does that mean that it has not been possible to take action for breaches of these new smart tachograph requirements in respect of such vehicles in this country? Have I understood that correctly? Could vehicles registered in this country have breached those requirements because the powers were not there to do anything about them? Is that what this is saying, or have I misunderstood, which I accept is quite possible? I would be grateful if the Minister could clear that one up. Obviously, it would be fairly significant if we had been unable to take action in respect of certain vehicles because this SI was not brought forward in time. As I said, I may have misunderstood the documentation that we received.

I also have a couple of other points. In the event of these arrangements coming in, what additional resources, if any, will be provided by the Government to ensure that the new regulations in relation to smart tachographs are actually followed? Will there be a need for additional resources? After Brexit, if the EU expands the types of vehicle that must be fitted with tachographs, will the Government follow suit and adopt those changes to EU regulations?

On my final point, and once again, my information may prove wide of the mark, I understand that the new smart tachographs can communicate remotely with roadside enforcement officers. Has the Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency developed the technology required to remotely monitor data gathered by smart tachographs? I ask that because there are suggestions—I choose that word specifically—that the DVSA has not developed this technology. If that is the case, what is the point of smart tachographs if we do not have the technology to collect the data they create?

Merchant Shipping (Monitoring, Reporting and Verification of Carbon Dioxide Emissions) (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018

Debate between Lord Rosser and Lord Teverson

Wednesday 24th October 2018 Grand Committee

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, I should declare that I am a board member of the Marine Management Organisation. I do not think that it conflicts with what we are considering here, but I mention it for the avoidance of doubt. I would like to respond to the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, by saying that in her role as leading the group in the European Parliament when the Conservatives were part of the EPP, which is exactly where they should still be, she was a fantastic advocate for her position. I was in a different group that sometimes became involved in things like trans-European networks, and I noted that she was very successful in what she tried to do. She presented a difficult opposition.

I want to come back to a few points about carbon budgets, which is what this comes down to. In her remarks the Minister alternated between talking about carbon emissions and greenhouse gas emissions. There is a very important difference between those two phrases. I would be interested in understanding whether these regulations are in fact concerned with greenhouse gases or carbon dioxide emissions. I know that they refer to carbon dioxide, but most of the monitoring that is done is for greenhouse gases. Although emissions of methane are lower, it is a much more potent greenhouse gas. The difference is important and I presume that it is particularly relevant to the shipping industry, given its emissions.

I congratulate the Minister on reminding us that international shipping is the one area where we still have not solved this issue internationally. In aviation we have this rather dodgy—if I am honest—offset system. We will see how it works, but I suspect that the Amazon rainforest will not grow at the rate that aircraft emissions will. Given that sympathy, I am interested to understand whether, given the fact that we have international paralysis, and with the Government perhaps frustrated by the fact that that sector is not represented within European or British carbon budgets, the UK, as the Climate Change Committee has often advocated, will take on its leadership role in this area again and start to reconsider whether the sector should be. I am not expecting a policy decision today in the Moses Room, but I will be interested to know if the Government will start to look at that issue.

When it comes to individual matters of these particular regulations, I shall quote from the Explanatory Memorandum as the legislation refers to European regulations all the way through and it is very difficult to read, as I am sure the Minister understands:

“The amendments … remove what will become redundant requirements on the UK to make certain reports to the Commission”.


I wanted to clarify whether those requirements, whatever they are, or those reports will actually now be made within the UK anyway.

I am in particularly interested in documents of compliance. I do not know much about this topic although I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, is clued up on them. I presume that they will be issued by the Marine and Coastguard Agency. I am interested to understand whether these are existing EU systems. If they are, are we having to replace the IT systems? Are they ready? How many of these things do we issue at the moment and how many are we going to have to issue after March 2019, or after the transition period if we manage to come to an agreement? As we all know, IT systems and the increase in documentation and red tape are one of the biggest challenges in making Brexit work.

I have to ask about this ability to expel ships from a port, which we are getting rid of because we already have the ability to get rid of ships for safety and environmental reasons. I am interested to understand, in terms of EU legislation, what other scenarios the Government were thinking of in that legislation other than safety and the environment, in order to understand what rights we are forgoing.

[Lord Rosser (Lab)]

My Lords, these regulations have already been through the Commons, as obviously the Minister knows better than I do. We indicated our support for them when they were considered there last week, and I hope she will not be too surprised when I say that that is still our position today. In the Commons, in response to points that we raised about the impact of these regulations on compliance with the IMO strategy and targets for carbon reductions from shipping by 2050, the Government said they would provide assurances in writing. I am afraid I genuinely do not know yet whether those assurances—I see the Minister is waving the letter, so if one is not already on its way to me, I would be extremely grateful to receive a copy.

I turn to Part 2 of the annex to the Explanatory Memorandum, headed:

“Statements required when using enabling powers under the European Union (Withdrawal) 2018 Act”,


which refers to the undertaking that has been given by the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State that:

“In my view the draft Merchant Shipping (Monitoring, Reporting and Verification of Carbon Dioxide Emissions from Ships) (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018 does no more than is appropriate”.


The Explanatory Memorandum to the previous SI that we were considering went on to say that the changes,

“do no more than is strictly necessary”.

This one does not contain those words. It says:

“This is the case because the amendments being made do no more than ensure the continuing effectiveness of the existing regulatory regime”.

Crime and Courts Act 2013 (Consequential Amendments) (No. 2) Order 2015

Debate between Lord Rosser and Lord Teverson

Tuesday 24th February 2015 Grand Committee

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, I have come very recently to this debate, but I was interested to come along and listen to it. I am interested in two areas, which are probably old territory—I hope that the Minister will forgive me. This is an important bit of legislation; drug-driving is equally as dangerous and as much of a hazard to fellow citizens as drink-driving. However, I am still unclear how the enforcement of this testing is to be done in a practical way. We always think of drug-driving as being about illegal drugs, but presumably some legal highs or even medicinal pharmaceuticals, particularly tranquilisers, can be equally dangerous. Is that covered in this legislation? I would be interested to hear and understand that context.

[Lord Rosser (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for explaining the purpose and content of this order. As she said, and as the Explanatory Memorandum sets out, the order amends the 1988 Act in consequence of the introduction to the Act, through the Crime and Courts Act 2013, of new drug-related road traffic offences, which make it a criminal offence to drive, attempt to drive or be in charge of a motor vehicle with a concentration of a specified controlled drug above a laid-down limit. The amendments in the order extend the penalties connected with drink and drugs, including failure to provide a specimen, to the new drug-related road traffic offences and provide for the endorsement of an offender’s counterpart and driving record in relation to the new offences. As the Minister said, the new offence comes into force shortly—at the beginning of next week—in England and Wales. Regulations determined by Parliament last October, I think, specified the controlled drugs and their limits.

I appreciate that the key debate on this issue has already taken place and the decisions have been made, but can the Minister give an up-to-date indication of the number of proceedings per year expected to be brought under the new offence of driving having taken a relevant controlled drug above the specified limit and whether the ability to test for and prove that drugs above the specified limit have been taken is sufficiently robust to expect a proportion of guilty findings similar to that applicable to drink-driving proceedings, namely 96%? Perhaps she could also say something about whether the necessary equipment to undertake these tests on those who it is felt may have been driving with a concentration of a specified controlled drug above a specified limit is now available, so that we are ready to go as far the bringing into force of these new offences is concerned. What is the cost of that equipment? How many police forces already have it? Who has to pay for it? Does it have to be used back at the police station or do we have equipment that can be used at the road side? It would be helpful if the Minister was able to comment on those points.

As I understand the penalties and levels, a zero-tolerance approach is being adopted towards anyone who is found to have a concentration of a specified controlled drug unless they are able to show that it resulted from having taken a drug for medical reasons.

The Explanatory Memorandum states:

“No formal consultation for these amendments has been undertaken as these are consequential amendments upon the creation of new drug driving offences”.

Has consultation taken place previously on what the penalties should be and whether they should be on a par with, lower than or higher than those related to drink-driving, or has it just been assumed that they should be on a similar level? Was a view taken on whether driving having taken drugs is likely to have a lesser or greater impact on driving ability than having consumed alcohol? One assumes, in the light of the comment in the Explanatory Memorandum that the penalties are on a par with those for similar driving offences connected with drink and drugs, that the impact is deemed to be the same. Perhaps the Minister could confirm that point because, if the impact is deemed likely to be greater, one would have thought that that would have been reflected in the penalty; if it was deemed likely to be lower, likewise it might have been thought that that would have been reflected in the penalty the other way.

Finally, the Explanatory Memorandum states in paragraph 12 that a supplier has been selected to evaluate the effect of the new drug-driving offences. Could the Minister say who that supplier is?

Local Government Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Rosser and Lord Teverson

Wednesday 30th June 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Rosser]

My Lords, we have had an interesting and at times passionate debate. Before I go further, I will again welcome the Minister to her new role and endorse the comments made about her by my noble friend Lady Hollis of Heigham. We have heard contributions from different sides of the argument. The contributions from the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, the noble Lords, Lord Rennard and Lord MacGregor of Pulham Market, the noble Baroness, Lady Scott of Needham Market, the noble Viscount, Lord Ullswater, the noble Lord, Lord Tope, and the noble Earl, Lord Cathcart, were in support of the Bill and of the arguments advanced by the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham. The contributions from my noble friends Lord McKenzie of Luton, Lady Hollis of Heigham and Lord Grocott were in opposition to a Bill that seeks to deny unitary authority status to Norwich and Exeter and to stop any further progress in Suffolk. We also heard an unexpected intervention by the noble Lord, Lord Burnett, which was perhaps the most passionate, as well as being the briefest.

However much some might like to dress it up, this is a political issue to be determined by Parliament. The coalition Government do not like the decision made in March this year in Parliament, and in particular in the House of Commons, that Norwich and Exeter could have unitary authority status. These were decisions made by Parliament, not by the then Secretary of State under delegated powers. Nor do the coalition Government like the earlier decision that could have resulted in one or more unitary authorities separate and distinct from Suffolk County Council. The coalition Government are now seeking to go down the same parliamentary road, this time to reverse the decision with another Bill. They were a bit slap-happy on the serious question of whether the Bill was a hybrid. Your Lordships’ House made sure that further evidence on that issue was properly considered.

Since Parliament made its decision, we have also had a court judgment. It said that the stance of the previous Secretary of State on Norwich and Exeter having unitary authority status was not irrational and that he was entitled to reach the view that he did on the merits of the proposals. The judgment went against him largely on the basis of process. All the issues about the stance of the previous Secretary of State, including issues about process, consultation and criteria, as well as the arguments for and against by supporters and opponents of the change to unitary authority status for Norwich and Exeter, were set out, as the noble Earl, Lord Cathcart, said, in the report of the Merits of Statutory Instruments Committee of this House. The content of that report, which could hardly have been music to the ears of the then Secretary of State, was widely quoted both in the debates in this House and in the debate in the other place. It must therefore be a matter for reflection that a court has made a ruling that could be regarded as seeking to negative not a recent decision of the previous Secretary of State but a very recent decision of Parliament on an issue of this kind, when it appears that all the arguments were before Parliament when it made its decision only a few months ago. It would suggest that, on occasions, the division of powers between the legislature and the judiciary is not quite as clear-cut as some would have us believe.

There is no criticism of the coalition Government over the principle of seeking to change or rescind legislation with which they do not agree by inviting Parliament to make a different decision. That is how an issue such as this, which has been the subject of a very recent decision by Parliament, should be addressed. However, the reality is that the move by the coalition Government to deny unitary authority status to Norwich and Exeter, and to ensure that no further progress is made in Suffolk that might lead to a unitary authority, is unfair and perverse. Indeed, the decision to quash any further moves that might lead to a unitary authority in Suffolk shows that the coalition Government’s decision is not based on looking at the merits of each case but is an objection in principle, to put it at its most polite, or, to be rather nearer the mark, an objection weak on logic but strong on ideology. The Secretary of State clearly did not go through all the papers and information available with any degree of thoroughness, as he made his decisions almost before he got his feet under the table in his new office.

The case for single-tier authorities is strong. The then Secretary of State for the Environment, Michael Heseltine, said in the other place in 1991 that,

“unitary authorities are more clearly responsible for the delivery of services, and more clearly accountable for the bill local people are expected to pay ... two tiers may lead to excessive bureaucracy and duplication of effort”.

He added that single-tier authorities would enable the Government,

“to increase the momentum of their existing policies to enable decision-making and responsibility to be more directly in the hands of the people”.—[Official Report, Commons, 23/4/91; col. 901.]

Certainly, in the case of Norwich and Exeter, value for money can hardly be a concern, as my noble friend Lady Hollis of Heigham powerfully argued. Even the then Permanent Secretary at the DCLG stated that, while the proposals would involve estimated net costs of £400,000 over the period to 2014-15, annual ongoing savings thereafter were estimated at £6.6 million. He acknowledged that, if the proposed approach of a unitary Norwich and Exeter achieved the economic gains envisaged, there might be offsetting benefits to the public purse from an increase in jobs, extra local and national tax revenues and reduced benefit payments.

Between 1995 and 1998, 46 new unitary authorities came into existence covering over a quarter of the population in non-metropolitan England. Only four of the 39 former county councils disappeared entirely, which does not suggest that an efficiently run county council cannot survive and prosper where unitary authorities have been established.

I do not know whether the new coalition Government have now taken a decision that unitary authorities act as a brake on progress rather than as an engine for economic progress both within their own area and the surrounding areas, and whether they now intend to abolish them. That is not an unreasonable question to ask, as it was the Conservative Government’s Local Government Act 1972 that established a two-tier structure for the whole of England and showed their then dislike, which appears to be resurfacing with this Bill this afternoon, of single-tier authorities for cities such as Norwich.

The Liberal Democrats, of course, used to believe that there should be a single principal tier of local government—and I think that the noble Lord, Lord Tope, is still in favour of it in his own area—unless the local community preferred other arrangements. However, that is clearly not their policy if it is Norwich—the largest non-unitary authority in the country—or Exeter that wants unitary status.

The principle of unitary authorities is not new, including in county council areas. For example, Devon already has two established unitary authorities; Wiltshire, I believe, has Swindon; and Bedfordshire had Luton. Why, then, should Norwich and Exeter not also be given the unitary authority status that they, and not the previous Government, have sought? Other county councils prosper alongside unitary city authorities, so why not Norfolk and Devon? We have had no plausible answer to that question from either wing of the coalition Government, and that is the question that the noble Earl, Lord Cathcart, should be raising not with me but with his own Front Bench.

[Lord Teverson]

I thank the Minister—I am sorry, not the Minister; I am out of date. I thank the noble Lord for giving way. I answered that question. I said that in historic Devon there are two unitary authorities: Torbay, which has not been successful, and Plymouth, which struggles hugely. There are others that are good, but those are the facts.

[Lord Rosser]

My Lords, I note that that is the noble Lord’s view, but I doubt that it is universally held. I accept that he is entitled to his view, as I am entitled to my view and this side is entitled to its view on these issues.

The situation is that Norfolk County Council and Devon County Council object to Norwich and Exeter respectively being given the much greater freedom to manage their affairs that unitary authority status would provide, apparently on the basis that it would make life more difficult for them. If other county councils, such as Wiltshire County Council, can prosper with separate unitary authorities in their major urban areas, why not Norfolk County Council and Devon County Council? As the judge said, the decision by the previous Secretary of State was not irrational; he was entitled to reach the view that he did on the merits of the proposals. However, it is irrational for a coalition Government who preach the language of devolving power and moving away from big centralised government to deny the right of Norwich and Exeter to break free from what they obviously feel are the shackles of Norfolk County Council and Devon County Council respectively, both of which on this issue seem to have a adopted an attitude more akin to that of a colonial power, resisting to the end the desire for independence of those whom they currently rule.

There is a decisive majority on Norwich council and either unanimity or near unanimity on Exeter council, which goes across parties, in favour of unitary authority status. However, their views seem to count for nothing with this coalition Government, which is a clear message that, despite the rhetoric to the contrary, the wishes of locally elected representatives will be ignored by them.

We often hear it claimed that those who live in urban areas do not understand the culture and needs of those in rural areas. This issue with Norwich and Exeter is the reverse: there is a feeling that the rural-dominated county councils do not understand the culture and needs of the urban area. Frankly, at a time when the Secretary of State has so demonstrably failed to stand up for local government in England, which faces cuts in funding in the current financial year of £1.165 billion, there will be an inevitable feeling in Norwich and Exeter, which will no doubt prove justified, that their respective county councils will not exactly fall over themselves to ensure that the brunt of any coalition government cuts will not be borne by the two major cities within their areas.

It is Norwich and Exeter that seek unitary authority status.