Bread and Flour Regulations: Folic Acid

Debate between Lord Rooker and Lord Kamall

Wednesday 6th July 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Rooker]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the answer by Lord Kamall on 6 April (HL Deb col 2076), what progress they have made towards amending the Bread and Flour Regulations to include folic acid fortification.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Lord Kamall) (Con)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for continuing to promote this important policy. I hope that, following our meeting in May, the noble Lord is sure that the Government share his commitment to getting folic acid fortification done as part of the Bread and Flour Regulations review. The review continues to progress, we are aiming to launch a consultation shortly and I am able to share an indicative timeline for the process.

[Lord Rooker (Lab)]

I am grateful to the Minister for his Answer and confirmation, but just in case there is any backsliding in his department, may I suggest that he asks them a question? Can anybody name any one of the 85 countries that have made fortified folic acid mandatory, some for over 20 years, that has pulled out; and can the Minister name any one of the 85 that has found a bad side-effect? The answer to both questions is no. Then, he can go and face the 18 women last week, this week, next week and the week after who have terminations after the 20-week scan. The department is sitting on a cure to stop 80% of that distress among our fellow citizens. We are going at a glacial pace— I accept it is in the right direction, but it is glacial.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I hope the noble Lord appreciates that there is debate here. He has written to me a number of times about Professor Wald’s paper, which has been put before the advisers in the department. I think what we are seeing is scientific contestation: some people say that the science is settled, but others say that you have to be very aware of the unintended consequences. The NHS website advises people with certain conditions not to take folic acid, the worry being that, for people who do have levels of folic acid, we may end up solving one problem and unintentionally creating another.

Folic Acid Fortification

Debate between Lord Rooker and Lord Kamall

Wednesday 6th April 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Rooker]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they intend to introduce draft legislation to replace the Bread and Flour Regulations, following their decision to implement folic acid fortification announced in September 2021.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Lord Kamall) (Con)]

I pay tribute to the noble Lord for his tireless advocacy of this important policy. Substantial progress has been made since September 2021, including working with the devolved Administrations to establish a cross-industry Bread and Flour Technical Working Group engaging stakeholders to move forward to the regulatory review. Proposed changes are being finalised and impacts assessed by a whole-UK working group for a consultation once the Northern Ireland Assembly elections have concluded.

[Lord Rooker (Lab)]

I thank the Minister. This is taking a long time. I have only one question for him. Given that it is now more than 30 years since the medical research councils connected up the difficulties of neural tube defects and that more than 80 countries have operated the policy, will he commit to using the best possible science? People have spent decades on this, and scientists tell me this can prevent up to 80% of neural tube defects. It has advanced since the original science 30 years ago.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

The noble Lord is absolutely right: our scientific knowledge increases as scientists challenge each other and come to other conclusions. We have to be aware that there is no off-the-shelf solution. For example, I am sure the noble Lord will be aware that in Australia they can divide the flour and fortify only flour used to make bread. That cannot be done in this country, which is why we are working with stakeholders including heritage millers, for example, to make sure that we have the right solution. It has all been delayed due to a number of elections.

Covid-19: Lockdowns

Debate between Lord Rooker and Lord Kamall

Wednesday 9th February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

The noble Lord makes important points. If we look at the history of the debate about the world being round, at one time scientists believed that the world was flat. Because of scepticism and contestability in science, we have been able to come to the conclusion that the world is round. That shows the importance of science being contestable and of having an open debate.

[Lord Rooker (Lab)]

On the issue of Covid and mortality, does the Minister have a view about the allegations made in the BBC2 documentary last night that there were hundreds of thousands of excess deaths because of the business and political attacks on the AstraZeneca vaccine in the early days? The fact is that its non-profit system did not suit the drug industry’s business plan. The massive allegation that, because of this failure, hundreds of thousands of extra people died, clearly ought to be investigated.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I apologise to the noble Lord. I did not see the programme last night. I was swatting up for the Health and Social Care Bill debate today and for this Question. The noble Lord refers to an important point. We should not forget not only the contribution that the research community made towards those vaccines, but also that AstraZeneca was prepared to supply, commercialise and distribute them on a not-for-profit basis. Sadly, it was attacked for doing so, not just for commercial reasons, but also by other countries that engaged in vaccine nationalism and disparaged the efficacy of the vaccine. Unfortunately, people in other countries have lost out. I hope that we do not see this in future.

NHS: Nurse Recruitment

Debate between Lord Rooker and Lord Kamall

Thursday 27th January 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I cannot comment on the exact numbers, but I will find the answer and write to the noble Baroness. I might add that I am the son of people who came from outside the UK or European Union, and I get slightly concerned with the tone when people say, “Let’s not have foreign nurses in our NHS.” It is important. Immigration plays a brilliant role in this country and always has. If you look at the post-war public services of this country, it was people from the Commonwealth who came and saved our public services.

[Lord Rooker (Lab)]

Can I say to the Minister that more nurses means more uniforms and more garments? The NHS boasts about being the largest employer in Europe, so what action does the National Health Service take to ensure that the cotton in any of the garments used for NHS nurses’ uniforms is not grown in Xinjiang in China? The technology is available to do that; paperwork is not required, and people tell lies. The use of technology would guarantee that we could play our part in making sure that slave labour is not part of the production of our nurses’ uniforms.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I hope the noble Lord will forgive me if I tell him that I have not examined nurses’ garments in detail. In terms of provenance, it is important at the moment—and we are doing this on lots of equipment that comes to the UK—to ensure that it is not from regions where there is slave labour, or where the Muslim Uighurs are being persecuted by the Chinese Government. We need to do more; indeed, I have had conversations in the department to find out how we can trace the sources of the products and equipment that we buy to make sure that they are ethically sourced.

NHS: Elective and Cancer Care Backlog

Debate between Lord Rooker and Lord Kamall

Tuesday 7th December 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Rooker]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the reasons for the backlog of NHS elective and cancer care work that pre-dated the COVID-19 pandemic.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Lord Kamall) (Con)]

The backlog in elective and cancer care before Covid-19 was caused by a range of factors including a mismatch in demand and activity, which drove waiting lists’ growth. To address this, the Government have provided additional investment of £33.9 billion by 2023-24 for the NHS long-term plan to grow the amount of planned surgery, cut long waits and reduce the waiting list.

[Lord Rooker (Lab)]

That answer comes nowhere near responding to the NAO report on the NHS backlog published last week. When will we be able to return to Labour’s legal legacy of 92% of patients getting treatment in 18 weeks, instead of the miserable figure under the Tories of 83% because they are running down the NHS, which has led to hundreds of thousands extra on the waiting list?

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for this Question on an otherwise quiet day for me. There was growing demand on the NHS before the Covid-19 pandemic, with growing referrals across elective and cancer care. This is driven by an ageing, more affluent population. On what we do about it, we set out our ambitions in the NHS long-term plan. I do not call a £33.9 billion budget increase by 2023-24 an abandonment of the principles. We are looking at the waiting lists and are looking to get them down.

Covid-19: Plan B

Debate between Lord Rooker and Lord Kamall

Wednesday 20th October 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for his question. I do not have the detailed data and I will write to him. But in terms of the link between cases, hospitalisations and deaths, it is quite clear that the vaccine has been working to break the link between the number of cases, hospitalisations and deaths.

[Lord Rooker (Lab)]

Would the Minister accept that one of the unfair criticisms, in some ways, over the last 18 months, has been “too little, too late”? That cannot happen again. We need to set good examples. At Prime Minister’s Questions today, there was not a single Conservative MP wearing a mask in a crowded Chamber. What on earth is that as an example to the people on the Tube and everywhere else? Clearly, some small measures now will save the big measures later.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I agree with the noble Lord that it is important that we take as many measures as possible to make sure that we do not have to move to plan B. I assure the noble Lord that I do wear my mask to, hopefully, set an example, and I hope others will too—but it is really important that we understand what factors are driving this rise in numbers and the most effective way of tackling it.