Arrangement of Business

Debate between Lord Rooker and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Wednesday 12th July 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

Perhaps I could have a word. It is 7.45 pm and a lot of amendments were tabled very late on, towards 1 pm. There has been much discussion. I asked the Clerk of the Parliaments why there was a delay; it was because there was discussion of the amendments with those who proposed them. Yes, it is 7.45 pm and I suggest that we keep going. My Front Bench is certainly happy to keep going.

[Lord Rooker (Lab)]

In my experience, this is normal for ping-pong and I am not going to be told what to do by the Greens.

Net Migration

Debate between Lord Rooker and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Tuesday 25th May 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, not only do we have a moral obligation but we have stated that moral obligation time and again. We have a history of meeting that moral obligation, and we intend to continue to do so.

[Lord Rooker (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, in my 20 years of membership of the House, which comes about next month, the population has increased by 6.1 million people, all unplanned. Has the Minister read the Civitas pamphlet Overcrowded Islands? by our colleague, the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, calling for a demographic authority to look at population changes and consequences?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

When the noble Lord started asking that question, I thought he meant the population of the House of Lords until he said 6.1 million. He is absolutely right. This goes to the question from the noble Lord, Lord Mann; we need a system that provides for the skilled workers we need here but also the infrastructure to underpin some of that planning.

Daniel Morgan: Independent Panel Report

Debate between Lord Rooker and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Tuesday 25th May 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I begin by thanking the noble Baroness for the part she has played as chair of the inquiry. We are as keen as she is to see that report published in Parliament. I echo her words about the family, who have had to wait 34 years for some of the answers they seek. That must have been an incredibly painful process for them. On publication to Parliament, I agree that the panel is now awaiting confirmation of the arrangements from the Home Office. The Home Secretary needs to see the report before it can be published in Parliament. To echo previous noble Lords, I also completely respect that legal specialists have looked at the report, but my right honourable friend the Home Secretary is under an obligation to assure herself of those facts before the report is published. As my honourable friend read out yesterday, the terms of reference say:

“The Independent Panel will present its final Report to the Home Secretary who will make arrangements.”


The noble Baroness has acknowledged that there is no attempt to redact, only to ensure that human rights and national security issues are absolutely scrutinised. Then, I hope, the report will be published as soon as practicable.

[Lord Rooker (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, during yesterday’s exchanges in the House of Commons the Minister was specifically asked twice, by Chris Bryant at col. 52 and Stuart McDonald at col. 54, to set out details of meetings of the Home Secretary or advisers with News UK, Rupert Murdoch or Rebekah Brooks regarding the panel report. The Minister completely ignored both questions and at no time made any reference to News UK. Would the Minister now like to answer the point, which must be referred to in her brief? Have there been such meetings?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, I know of no meetings that have taken place with News UK. As for the report being published, we cannot arrange timings until it is received.

UK Terrorism Threat Level

Debate between Lord Rooker and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Tuesday 10th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

It is important that we as a country lead by example. Clearly, we stand in solidarity with France and the French. I do not want to be drawn into discussing the comments that other leaders may have made, but we remain, as an international family, in solidarity with those people and against terrorism.

[Lord Rooker (Lab) [V]]

My thoughts too are with those who have suffered in France and Austria. I have two brief questions. The Minister did not answer the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, about police officers. He asked what was the net increase. Is the Minister saying that the 6,000 figure is a net increase? Clarity on that would be useful.

The Statement towards the end pays tribute to the police who put themselves in harm’s way every day to defend the public. During lockdown the police are far more exposed than they ordinarily are to the nutcases out to cause trouble. Who is watching out for the police? What extra precautions are being taken? The police are now more vulnerable because of the exposure than in normal times. I think this factor must weigh heavily with policymakers and those holding the resource bag.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I think the noble Lord will have heard my right honourable friend the Home Secretary talk about her revulsion at people who seek to attack the police while they are trying to maintain the policing by consent that we hold so dear in this country. In terms of who is protecting the police, they certainly have our support and we will do anything that we can to ensure that they are safe, notwithstanding some tragedies that we have seen recently. In terms of the increase in police numbers, I think I was quite clear in saying that we are approaching the 6,000 figure; we are certainly not at it yet, but we are not far off. I have elected to provide the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, with more detail. It is not a net increase; it is a gross increase number. I will provide a breakdown rather than trying to make it up on the hop.

Covid-19: Christmas Breaches of Restrictions

Debate between Lord Rooker and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Tuesday 3rd November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

Policing by consent is something that we as a society not only want to uphold, but hold very dear. Policing is not always in that vein in other countries across the world. In a statement issued on his website on 28 October, the PCC clarified:

“West Midlands Police will continue to use good sense”


in enforcing the rules

“appropriately and proportionately. That means that they have focussed on large and flagrant breaches of the rules.”

He called at that time for clarity on the rules, which is very important for the Government.

[Lord Rooker (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, David Jamieson is a star among the police and crime commissioners. The Government make the rules; the job of the police is to enforce them. Is the Minister aware that the cuts to West Midlands Police mean that it can focus on only very large gatherings? Can the Minister guarantee that the Christmas guidance will arrive before Boxing Day? The police do not want to spoil anybody’s fun, but they must halt the spread of the virus. I declare that my wife and I are members of the West Midlands Police family.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I can confirm that the Home Office has provided additional surge funding. I agree with the other points he made, certainly regarding the guidance. The pattern of the virus changes, going up exponentially and falling; we must respond to what it is doing at the time.

Deportation: Jamaica

Debate between Lord Rooker and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Wednesday 6th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I have to say that it was under a Labour Government that the UK Borders Act 2007 was brought in. A deportation order must be made in respect of a foreign criminal sentenced to a period of more than 12 months, and we will not resile from that—I am sure the noble Lord would not expect us to do so. This was what my right honourable friend the Home Secretary was referring to when he made his comment yesterday about not wanting to break the law.

[Lord Rooker (Lab)]

My Lords, the implication of what the Minister said, a bit like what the Home Secretary said yesterday, is, “Oh, this is a law that Labour brought in. We are being forced to do it, because Labour did it”. If you do not agree with that law, why have you not got rid of it? Why use petty party points on a serious issue like this?

Immigration

Debate between Lord Rooker and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Thursday 25th October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

On the target of fewer than 100,000, I think the latest position is that we want to get immigration down to a sustainable level. In saying that, we want an immigration system that allows for the skills that we need in this country as opposed to looking at numbers. We have got almost full employment in this country now and going forward we need to have skills in certain areas. It is important that those needs are met or it will affect the economy.

[Lord Rooker (Lab)]

On the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Wilson, in 2001-02 I was the Home Office Minister for Asylum and Immigration. I do not recognise the culture that I inherited then. I remember the noble Lord, Lord Wilson, who was Cabinet Secretary, coming to visit the Home Office during my time. The Home Secretary is a big man, and I think he should be big enough to ask someone like the noble Lord, Lord Wilson, who has the past experience, not to micromanage but just to run a rule over the culture and have a look at the message on the tin to see what is missing from what was there 20 years ago.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

This House always benefits from the past experience of noble Lords such as the noble Lords, Lord Rooker and Lord Wilson. I will take that back and make sure that it is brought to the attention of my right honourable friend the Home Secretary.

Russia: Threats to Individuals in the UK

Debate between Lord Rooker and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Thursday 8th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, my noble friend is slightly straying into Foreign Office territory in relation to the diplomatic response. He is also jumping several stages ahead, because this is an ongoing investigation to which conclusions have not yet been reached. My noble friend is absolutely right to raise the issue of the torrent of dirty money: he was very vocal on this during the Criminal Finances Bill, and that Bill—now an Act—was meant precisely to ensure that criminal assets could not be hidden in, for example, dwellings or property in this country.

[Lord Rooker (Lab)]

My Lords, I will stick to something for which the Home Office is responsible, so that the Minister cannot shift it elsewhere. Have the Home Office, the Home Secretary and the Ministers yet replied to the letter that they received from the Home Affairs Select Committee in the other place, relating to the BuzzFeed reports about the 14 suspicious—or not so suspicious—deaths, referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Faulks?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

In relation to BuzzFeed’s stories—that is precisely what they are, media stories—I cannot answer the noble Lord; I do not know the answer to that question, but I will find out and let him know. If people have concerns around the BuzzFeed story, they should put those concerns to the police, because they are dealing with this.

Criminal Finances Bill

Debate between Lord Rooker and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 28th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Rooker]

The Minister is missing the point, although I am sure she is not doing so deliberately. No bank has been prosecuted. That is the background to the question I asked. I did not ask about cosy deals with the Financial Conduct Authority—like those reported today with Tesco and the one with Rolls-Royce, which I referred to at Second Reading—to have deferred prosecutions, so that they pay but do not get prosecuted. I asked about banks being prosecuted. The one way to stop or curtail this, as the noble Lord, Lord Deben, said, is to get them where it hurts, not with cosy deals. These fines are not the result of prosecutions. If she is implying that, she is wrong, and is close to misleading the Committee. I am not asking about deals; I am asking about prosecutions which take place in court, not through cosy deals and a fine from the Financial Conduct Authority.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I hope the noble Lord does not think that I have ever tried to mislead the House. I talked about fines, but where a bank was found to have committed a criminal offence, a prosecution could be undertaken. Investigations and prosecutions are a matter for law enforcement agencies and prosecutors. I take the point that he is making, but this is open to law enforcement. Last month, a £163 million fine was issued to Deutsche Bank, and I would suggest that hitting them where it hurts probably involves hitting them in their pockets. It is open to law enforcement to prosecute banks, but I take the noble Lord’s point in that, today, I know of no prosecutions of banks. But the fines regime is in place.

I am very grateful for the amendment but hope that my noble friend has been assured that there is not a gap in existing powers that would justify extending UWOs in the way proposed. I hope he will feel content to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Faulks]

My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who took part in the debate and for the general support for what lay behind this amendment, which is a widespread concern about the London property market in particular and the degree to which it is clear that corrupt money has entered it. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Brown, made a number of important points—particularly that I am not learned. He was also correct to say that the word “or” was missing from the amendment, and made some other drafting suggestions. He was also right to suggest that this is not a panacea, but it was not designed to be. The amendment was intended to provoke the sort of debate we have had and to ask the Government whether they are truly satisfied that the evil we have identified is being answered, and in particular whether anything in the Bill can be used to deal with the problem.

My noble friend the Minister has said that the provision covers those who are PEPs within the definition of the Bill or those suspected of serious criminality. But what, I ask, about those who may not easily be defined as being “suspected of serious criminality” but are in fact gangsters? What of those who have high office but do not come within the definition of PEPs? With many of the properties, it will be difficult to determine precisely who owns them. All that we ask for is an unexplained wealth order—it is not a criminal offence; it is a civil procedure which results, if there is no adequate explanation, in civil recovery. That, I suggest, will help deter the incursion of corrupt money. The provisions contain safeguards on self-incrimination and compensation. Let us not be too pusillanimous about this. My noble friend said that she had received my request for information about the envelope tax at Second Reading and she has again, but she has not yet replied. On the face of it, that is in stark contradiction to the policy that underlies the UWOs.

We will miss a legislative opportunity if we do not do something through the Bill to sort out the problem we have identified. I hope that my noble friend will speak to her officials and be satisfied that there is no gap, no lacuna, in this approach.

West Midlands Combined Authority Order 2016

Debate between Lord Rooker and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Monday 6th June 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Rooker (Lab)]

On the point that the Minister has just made about the other House approving this order, how long did it spend on it?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

Virtually no time at all, I understand. It shows the merit of your Lordships’ House that so many noble Lords are here today and are actually interested in this subject. I thank noble Lords for their presence here today and I am sure that I will be well and truly grilled.

I shall say a few words on devolution deals. The Government committed in our 2015 manifesto to,

“devolve powers and budgets to boost local growth in England”,

and we see combined authorities as a mechanism for doing so. On 17 November 2015 we agreed and concluded a devolution agreement with the seven councils that are constituent councils of this combined authority. This is a major step in our devolution agenda. The footprint created by the three local enterprise partnerships of the West Midlands makes up a major economy with an annual GVA of some £80 billion. The area is also England’s manufacturing heart, home to important manufacturing businesses and leading centres of advanced engineering research.

The region’s leaders are committed to delivering growth, prosperity and well-being for their residents, and they see the devolution agreement that they have concluded with the Government as central to achieving that. The agreement will devolve major powers and budgets, including £36.5 million a year of devolved funding, over the next 30 years; responsibility for a devolved transport budget; control of the 19-plus adult skills funding by 2018-19; strategic planning powers; and a devolved approach to business support. It will also enable the combined authority to create an investment fund of over £1 billion through the 30-year revenue stream and locally raised finance.

In return, the area has agreed appropriate governance for the new powers and budgets, centred on a combined authority and a directly elected mayor, providing the vital, sharp, single point of accountability that is essential if such wide-ranging powers and budgets are to be handed to the area. The combined authority that we are discussing today will be the foundation of that new governance, and we will be bringing forward to Parliament the necessary orders that, with the consent of the councils concerned, will establish the new governance arrangements if Parliament approves them. Today, however, we are considering simply the order that—if this House approves, as the other place already has—will establish a combined authority with transport and economic development functions, and which, as I have said, if those concerned wish this, can be the foundation of the governance needed for us to implement the devolution deal. I commend the order to the House.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I congratulate your Lordships’ House on spending a substantial amount of time discussing this order. I certainly have quite a few questions to respond to but I start with the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, who commended all the constituent councils in the West Midlands for the way they have worked together. I acknowledge that, certainly in Greater Manchester, relationships have been built up over some 30 years and it has been an easier process there. As the noble Lords, Lord Hunt and Lord Rooker, said, the councils in the West Midlands are of a quite different type and variety. I sincerely congratulate them on the work they have done in getting to this place.

On the point of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, about Channel 4, clearly, that is not my department but the BBC managed to uproot itself and place its home in Salford. People thought that that would never happen but it did. MediaCity provides an excellent working environment for both the BBC and ITV. I will not give my view on Channel 4, but it is possible and I hope sense will prevail.

We have strayed into mayoral combined authorities and devolution deals, and we almost cannot help that because they are so interrelated. However, this order is focused purely on the setting up of a combined authority for the West Midlands. I will start with what the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, said about the NAO commentary on the devolution deal. He asked several questions about the devolution deal, including on the NAO report. As I understand it, the NAO simply commented that the devolution deal in the West Midlands sets up more complex and untested arrangements than those for Greater Manchester. At face value, they appear more complex. Of course, as I said to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, the authorities of Greater Manchester have worked together for many years, but we are confident that the agreed deal can be effective. It would be great if it could be. We are not afraid of innovation in the governance arrangements that will be put in place. The mayor in particular will provide the necessary accountability. Accountability is very important here.

The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, talked about letting local authorities decide for themselves. However, the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, firmly made the point that we should not have informality; there must be some accountability and, I think he said, tightening. Of course, none of this is about the order today but I think we have agreed that. The order implements a proposal for a combined authority made by the councils in October 2015, one month before the deal in front of us was agreed.

The noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, also talked about whether non-constituent members, as well as constituent members, could be part of future deals. Deals are about areas. The area of a combined authority is that of the constituent councils but in the West Midlands the intention is for the combined authority to support the growth of the area across the three local enterprise areas, which includes the area of the non-constituent councils. But the electorate of the non-constituent council areas do not vote for the mayor, nor does the mayor exercise functions in that area.

The noble Lord also commented on the consultation, as did a number of other noble Lords. We hold the view that there are no inadequacies in the consultation, having had regard to the government consultation principles, which were, as I said, published on 14 January this year, and to which the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee referred in its report and which have recently been amended in the light of comments made by the said committee. In short, the consultation’s use of digital measures are wholly consistent with these principles, and as the principles make clear, consultation needs to be considered as,

“part of a process of engagement”.

The engagement in this case has been very substantial and included: writing to a representative sample of 465 stakeholders, comprising key private sector employers, public sector bodies and third sector organisations; the establishment of an online survey which attracted 305 respondents, the results of which were analysed and published; the attendance of the local enterprise partnerships, and the authorities within them, at combined authority meetings; seeking feedback from the public via a “query box”, as I have mentioned; a parliamentary event; and a number of formal and informal briefings with the business and third sector communities. On account of these points, we think that there has been extensive engagement and local input from communities, stakeholders and local people.

A couple of noble Lords commented on combination creep in relation to the West Midlands combined authority. However, the simple fact is that the geography of this combined authority is absolutely clear. The area of the combined authority is the area of the seven metropolitan areas of the West Midlands, which are Birmingham, Coventry, Dudley, Sandwell, Solihull, Walsall and Wolverhampton. The draft order before noble Lords provides that certain named councils outside the area can sit at the table of the combined authority. It is absolutely right and sensible that these neighbouring areas can influence decisions taken in the combined authority area. That is a sensible and progressive way to ensure appropriate governance and decision-making in this area.

The noble Baroness, Lady Burt, made some excellent points about strategic thought around skills, transport and manufacturing. She was not present for the debates on the Cities and Local Government Devolution Bill, but precisely that recurring theme arose throughout the passage of that Bill. That is precisely how local authorities should be thinking, as some are doing very well. She asked about the voting rights for non-constituent members. Any non-constituent council or LEP member of the combined authority shall be non-voting but may be given voting rights by resolution of the constituent members of the combined authority, possibly where there is an issue very relevant to that non-constituent authority. The noble Baroness also asked what part minor parties would play. I do not know whether she has heard this from her colleagues, but that issue was again much discussed during the passage of the Cities and Local Government Devolution Bill, particularly by members of her party. Combined authorities must have one or more overview and scrutiny committees, the majority of members of such a committee must be members of the constituent councils, and the committee must reflect the political balance of the constituent councils of the combined authority.

The noble Baroness also asked who votes for the mayor. Obviously, the political parties will choose their own candidates but the people who vote for the mayor will be the electorate within the constituent councils of the combined authority, so that will be Birmingham, Coventry, Dudley, Sandwell, Solihull, Walsall and Wolverhampton. Obviously, the electorate of the non-constituent councils will not have a vote for the mayor.

The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, talked about an issue which we debated long and hard during the progress of the Cities and Local Government Devolution Bill: health and social care and whether DCLG would be sympathetic to a proposal coming forward. We welcome proposals from local areas. The Government are absolutely clear that devolution is an ongoing process and not limited to one deal: that is the beauty of devolution. It is for local areas to come forward with their proposals for further devolution deals, including health proposals, as Greater Manchester has already done.

The noble Lord, Lord Rooker, talked about the mayoral order already being published. The constituent councils of the West Midlands are in the process of considering a draft mayoral order which will establish the post of mayor from 2017 at full council meetings. Following the establishment of the basic combined authority, subject to approval by this House, the constituent councils and the combined authority will be asked to consent to the making of a mayoral order which will give effect to the devolution deal agreed between the Government and the West Midlands. The noble Lord also asked about the mayor being mayor for only part of the combined authority area. The area of the combined authority is the area of the constituent councils, that is, the area of the seven metropolitan—

[Lord Rooker]

My Lords, I will help the Minister by giving her time to decipher what she has got. When I said “part”, I was naturally referring to the old West Midlands metropolitan council area: in other words, the seven constituent members who will have the 14 votes in the combined authority. I fully accept that that is where the mayor will be, but the combined authority—if it gets going—will be discussed with all the others, including Stratford and Shropshire, as the West Midlands combined authority. Confusion may arise when people talk about the mayor of the West Midlands, but it only refers to the metropolitan district council areas.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

It does indeed; it is only in relation to those areas. Regarding non-constituent councils, the point is simply that certain councils outside the area of the combined authority can be at the table of the combined authority, reflecting the fact that what the combined authority and mayor might do could affect the surrounding areas. However, the non-constituent councils do not have the right to vote on decisions except, as I explained to the noble Baroness, Lady Burt, in certain circumstances where the combined authority agrees.

Finally, the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, made a point about business rates. We are working with the LGA and local councils for a planned summer consultation—which I am sure the noble Lord will be involved in—before introducing the local growth and jobs Bill later in the Session to make the necessary provisions. However, I look forward to early engagement on that, particularly with the noble Lords, Lord Beecham and Lord Kennedy, whom I am sure will be involved.

I think I have addressed most of the points, and I hope noble Lords will be content for me to write to them on those I have not. I beg to move.