Republic of Ireland: British Passports

Lord Rogan Excerpts

Wednesday 26th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Rogan (UUP)]

My Lords, I too welcome the Minister to his place this evening. I am sure that we all wish him well in his new role.

It is a pleasure to speak in this debate, which I congratulate my friend the noble Lord, Lord Hay, on securing. Your Lordships will be well aware of his long-held and understandably strong views on the matter before us tonight, which he has again outlined with the customary clarity we have come to expect from him. While we may be concentrating on his dilemma this evening, the anomaly applies equally to many more persons in a similar situation. My noble friend has been a passionate campaigner on the right of people living in Northern Ireland, but born in the Republic of Ireland, to hold a United Kingdom passport. This is an incredibly personal matter for him, and understandably so.

As the House will be aware, the noble Lord, Lord Hay, was first elected to Londonderry City Council more than four decades ago and, in 1993, served as the mayor. He was elected to the Northern Ireland Assembly in 1998 in the wake of the Belfast agreement, and held the senior position of Speaker from 2007 to 2014. He is also a prominent member of both the Orange Order and the Apprentice Boys of Derry. I am proud to have marched with Willy Hay on many occasions down the years.

In short, and despite the occasional political differences he and I may have had, there are few Northern Ireland citizens more committed to their British identity than the noble Lord, Lord Hay. As such, it should be described not as an anomaly but as an abomination that he is not allowed or entitled to a British passport as of right.

The noble Lord mentioned the Good Friday agreement, as did the noble Lord, Lord Browne. Despite being on opposite sides of the debate in 1998, I am sure the noble Lords would agree that the Belfast agreement was a huge game-changer with regard to national identity. Under the provisions of that agreement, Northern Ireland residents can apply for an Irish passport, and many, from both political traditions, have chosen to do so. In contrast, people resident in Northern Ireland but born in the Republic of Ireland are not automatically entitled to a UK passport, even if, as in the case the noble Lord, they have lived there for many decades, paid their taxes there and, in his case, made a significant contribution to the public life of Northern Ireland.

Speaking in another place last week, the Northern Ireland Office Minister Steve Baker proudly described himself as “defiantly and ferociously pro-union”. However, he proceeded to describe his holding of a United Kingdom passport as

“an administrative thing, not a definition of who I am”.

He added:

“I gently make that point to illustrate that perhaps not all of us feel exactly the same way about our passport”.—[Official Report, Commons, 18/10/22; col. 242WH.]


Mr Baker has not been in post for very long and, with the ministerial shuffles currently going on, he might not stay in place much longer. However, I respectfully suggest to your Lordships that this Minister’s understanding of the unionist mindset in Northern Ireland remains very much in the remedial stage.

It will shock this House to learn that, despite his fresh-faced youthfulness and boundless energy, my friend the noble Lord, Lord Hay, was born in fact in 1950. However, that makes him one of an estimated 40,000 people born in the Republic of Ireland after 1949 and resident in Northern Ireland who are currently expected to apply for naturalisation before being entitled to a UK passport. That application currently comes at a cost of £1,330 and the process includes a requirement to pass the Life in the UK test and attend a citizenship ceremony. For people such as my noble friend, who have lived in the Province for many decades, it is nothing short of demeaning that this should be the case.

I commend the work of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee in another place which last year conducted an inquiry into the barriers to UK citizenship for Northern Ireland residents. The committee concluded that a bespoke solution was required for Irish citizens to gain UK citizenship, reflecting

“personal ties, relationships, geopolitical realities and movement of people”

between the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland. It also recommended that the current £1,330 application fee should be abolished, describing it as

“at worst indefensible, and at best unreasonable and excessive.”

I recognise the UK Government’s desire to better control our borders in a post-Brexit world, and I support this approach in principle. However, Northern Ireland is different, not least because of the 300-mile land border with our friends in the Republic, incorporating more than 280 crossing points. The issue we are debating today has nothing to do with Brexit. This is a matter which has been around for many years and which successive United Kingdom Governments have failed to deal with, hence the reason why my friend the noble Lord, Lord Hay, has rightly felt compelled to continue his high-profile campaign, not just for himself but on behalf of the many others in his position.

The United Kingdom is a welcoming country and I would argue, without fear of contradiction, that Northern Ireland is its most welcoming component part. Like the noble Lord, Lord Hay, I am a committed unionist, and unlike many UK government Ministers down the years I am proud to describe myself as a persuader for the union. I want as many people as possible living in Northern Ireland to support the British identity in Northern Ireland and to embrace it collectively. It is something to be cherished, of that there is no doubt, but also something which should be shared.

My friend the noble Lord, Lord Hay, is every bit as British as I am. He is every bit as British as everybody in this Room tonight. He and others like him should have that identity recognised in the same way as my British identity is recognised, and noble Lords’ British identity is recognised, by having the automatic right to hold a British passport. I commend my noble friend for bringing forward this important debate and I hope the Minister will finally signal a change of approach on behalf of His Majesty’s Government in his closing remarks. The noble Lord, Lord Hay, has my full support in what he is seeking to achieve.

Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill

Lord Rogan Excerpts

Lords Hansard - part two & Committee stage
Wednesday 17th November 2021 Lords Chamber

Clause 163 agreed.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Rogan) (UUP)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, will be taking part remotely in debate on the following amendment.

 

Amendment 240A

Moved by

E-scooters

Lord Rogan Excerpts

Wednesday 26th May 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

All of what the noble Lord says is true. E-scooters are different from e-bikes in that you actually have to make some effort to propel the e-bike, whereas the e-scooter is self-propelling. I think they are here to stay, but at the heart of this is the safety of other people riding bikes or, indeed, driving cars, as well the as safety of pedestrians, particularly disabled ones, as my noble friend mentioned.

[Lord Rogan (UUP)]

E-scooters are currently banned in Northern Ireland, but just last week the Belfast Telegraph reported that the PSNI had stepped up enforcement actions against these vehicles and their riders after noticing their increased popularity. Figures provided by local councils show that 210 people have been injured in e-scooter incidents since they were legalised in England last summer. I urge the Minister to share these statistics and any related background information she holds with the devolved Administrations, including Northern Ireland, in case they may be minded to follow Her Majesty’s Government’s misguided and dangerous policy on e-scooters.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, we regularly engage with the devolved Administrations, and I shall certainly take that back.

Security: ID Cards

Lord Rogan Excerpts

Thursday 20th July 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord mentions the Verify system, which is a very good way for people to prove who they are online. There are a mixture of different ways in which people can prove identity for different purposes, and the noble Lord is right to raise that.

[Lord Rogan (UUP)]

My Lords, in elections in Northern Ireland, voters must provide an identification document, such as a driving licence, passport or social security card, to be able to vote. This is acceptable to the electors in Northern Ireland and causes no objections whatever. Surely the same could apply to the ID card throughout the UK in this current security situation.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, the Government have announced plans to pilot the use of various forms of documentation as proof of identity when voting in specified local authority areas during the local government elections in 2018. There are no plans, however, to establish a specific electoral identity card pilot at this stage.

Policing and Crime Bill

Lord Rogan Excerpts

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard - part two): House of Lords
Wednesday 26th October 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Condon (CB)]

My Lords, in view of the time, I am not going to repeat the points made so far. Suffice it to say that I agree totally with what the noble Lords, Lord Dear and Lord Blair, said on these issues. I might put the emphasis slightly differently—in some parts more strongly and less strongly in others—but in the round I agree with all they said.

I go straight to the amendments. On the first amendment, tabled by the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, I agree that overseas experience is desirable—it is nice, it is to be welcomed. As commissioner, I spent one Christmas visiting my officers in Sarajevo and elsewhere in that region, and I was very proud of the work that they were doing. I had a wonderful detective sergeant who was in command of more than 400 international police officers, many of them of chief officer rank. In the merits of a local situation, she was selected as a British detective sergeant to command those 400 overseas officers, and she did it magnificently. So I do not underestimate the merits, experience and legacy of working overseas—but it is too narrow an issue to be prescriptive as of today in relation to chief officer posts. It is a laudable aspiration, but let us not make it a prescriptive requirement of being a chief officer.

On the second amendment, on the parochial point about not being promoted from within the one force, I raised that point at Second Reading, as a very serious unintended consequence of police and crime commissioners. One of its great strengths and merits is its very parochialism and local focus—but that is an enormous downside with regard to the selection of chief officers. A couple of months ago, I tabled a Written Question that was answered by the Home Office Minister. I asked how many chief constable promotions over the last year came from an outside force and how many were internal promotions. As the noble Lord, Lord Dear, said, those internal promotions only a few years ago would not have been technically possible; they would not have been allowed by the Home Office or the inspectorate. The answer was that the overwhelming majority of all the appointments of chief constable over the last few years have been internal. Very few have been external appointments—and so good, aspiring, young police officers will not seek to apply any more for those posts.

The movement between forces has now virtually stopped. There is an acceptance that police and crime commissioners will appoint only their sitting deputies and will not consider other candidates. The Government, the inspectorate and the Home Office must find some remedial mechanism which interdicts that process, encourages movement and ensures that the best people are promoted. I do not really mind what the mechanism is, but we need to face up to the challenge and the mischief that is currently happening—we are shrinking the gene pool of talent at the very top levels of policing.

On the final amendment from the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, I support broadly what he is aspiring to do, which is to have clearer ideas and objective measurement of leadership. That must only be a good thing.

The motivation for all the amendments in this group—three from the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, supported by the noble Lord, Lord Dear, and one from the noble Lord, Lord Blair, and me—is to ensure the best possible senior police leadership with appropriate skills and experience. We are where we are—we will not be able to unpick what has happened quickly. My support for the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Blair, is about facing up to where we are. There is a growing acceptance that outstanding candidates no longer need to start their police careers as constables or to progress through all the police ranks before serving in the most senior ranks.

The noble Lord, Lord Blair, and I, in our amendment, provide for the possibility of an outstanding external candidate with no police experience being considered for the roles of commissioner, chief constable, or Director of the National Crime Agency, if the Secretary of State is so minded, but after he or she has taken advice from Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector of Constabulary about the candidates who are available and willing to be considered, as well as any external candidates. But being commissioner or chief constable is about more than being an able leader or an able administrator. It is also about very specific command and control within policing. It is about life and death authority over the use of complex legal powers and authorities, which become more and more important as terrorism becomes more of a threat in Europe. It is about setting professional standards of integrity and performance, based on very detailed understanding of police culture, capabilities and weaknesses. While an able General, Admiral or former Permanent Under-Secretary, for example, can bring enormous leadership and administrative skills, they will be at a disadvantage initially in not understanding or knowing some of the cultural, professional and technical issues that face policing.

I acknowledge that we are where we are. The gene pool of police leadership should and must be improved. Ideally, it would be through taking some of the best from history, recognising where we are now, and moving forward in the way that the noble Lord, Lord Dear, indicated. But, in improving it, we should not do so in a way that trivialises relevant police experience or demoralises able men and women who have already embarked on police careers. Some have very recently come in as direct entrants at superintendent level and have aspirations and expectations to rise to the most senior posts in the service. I hope that the Minister will acknowledge that while room and encouragement should be given for exceptional candidates without a policing background to be brought into top police posts, more effort should now be put into developing, as soon as possible, able men and women who see policing as a career that occupies much of their professional life, building on the current schemes for direct entry at various levels up to and including that of superintendent.

I am approaching almost my 50th anniversary of being around policing. I am very proud to have been a police officer. Like the noble Lords, Lord Dear and Lord Blair, I am a product of the system that was described. Some people crassly call for leadership to be helicoptered in from almost anywhere. This is not about education. I am an Oxford graduate, as is the noble Lord, Lord Blair, and the noble Lord, Lord Dear, is a Cambridge graduate. The current commissioner is an Oxford graduate. As I say, this is not about education. If it is about performance, past police leaders have outperformed on courses such as those of the Royal College of Defence Studies and the Cabinet Office Top Management Programme, on which I was sent by Prime Minister Thatcher. So there is a legacy of police leaders competing with, and outperforming, their peers and contemporaries in the military, in public service and the private sector.

However, this issue is not about that. In some cases, I fear that it becomes almost a pernicious class argument. As the noble Lord, Lord Dear, hinted, I worry that we are going back to the good old, bad old days—the pre-war thinking that not enough commissioners or chief constables have spent enough time in some of the best public schools. It is so sad when the argument boils down to that. This is really about trying to get the best leadership in policing, I hope that the Government, the Home Office and the Chief Inspector of Constabulary will put their heads together to help us find a way through this, because the direction in which we are going will not enhance police leadership; it will weaken it.

[Lord Rogan (UUP)]

My Lords, the PSNI has a requirement that before potential chief constables are appointed, they have to serve—I think for one or two years—in a force other than one in Northern Ireland. Perhaps that requirement could be introduced in the rest of the UK.

[Lord Paddick]

My Lords, I shall try to be brief. I am getting wind-up signals already. As regards Amendments 176, 177 and 178, the opportunities for international police experience are very limited. Therefore, to mandate it would be to disadvantage many able candidates for promotion. Something desperately needs to be done to stop people being promoted just from within the most senior ranks within the force because the police and crime commissioner knows the candidates and does not know candidates from outside forces. As the noble Lord, Lord Blair, and others have said, it used to be a rule that, if you wanted to be the chief constable, you could not have been the assistant chief constable and the deputy chief constable in that same force. That rule needs to be brought back.

I say to the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, that the difference between leadership and management is that management is about getting people to do what you want them to do and leadership is about getting them to want to do what you want them to do. The latter approach is essential in policing because in most circumstances you are not with the officer when the officer is in contact with the public.

As regards what the noble Lord, Lord Dear, said, the three-day extended interview, the strategic command course and the strategic leadership course were good models and produced good candidates. Something needs to be done to rectify that situation.

I was slightly disappointed that the first I knew of the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Blair of Boughton, was when I saw it in the Marshalled List. If he had sought our help, we would have supported his amendment. I hope that we can work together on it between now and the next stage of the Bill. The noble Lord may recall that when we had discussions about direct entry at superintendent level, I went further than him and the noble Lord, Lord Condon, in terms of the need for police experience.

The Minister can learn from the experience of the noble Lord, Lord Blair, as commissioner. Within weeks of him becoming commissioner, the bombing on the London Underground and on the bus in Russell Square happened. Do the Government want to put somebody who has no experience of policing, or even somebody who has had experience in another country and who does not know the capacity and the powers of the British police service or the laws that apply in this country, in a situation where within weeks they could face that sort of disaster?

Child Abuse Inquiry

Lord Rogan Excerpts

Thursday 22nd January 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bates]

I very much hope that that is not the case. I have to say that in most cases the pressure that we have been under was to extend the terms of reference still wider. I totally understand the noble Lord’s point that the inquiry needs to be sharp and focused, and to get to the heart of the matter. The chair who is appointed to the panel therefore has an incredible responsibility to provide that clarity of focus and speed of deliberation so that we get the answers quickly.

[Lord Rogan (UUP)]

My Lords, the Minister is suggesting that a new panel may be set up. Could its remit be extended into inquiring into the Kincora Boys’ Home in Belfast?

[Lord Bates]

This is a devolved matter in Northern Ireland. An inquiry is ongoing at present, chaired by Sir Anthony Hart. We are of course open to the devolved Administration making approaches, but at the moment this is for England and Wales.

Immigration: Controls at Airports

Lord Rogan Excerpts

Wednesday 16th May 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, at the Dispatch Box, in answer to a question, I am not going to go through in detail the recruiting processes of UKBA and the border force. Obviously, they have to make sure that they get the right people who get the right training, and that they deal with things in the proper ways. At the same time, we also want to make sure that we use technology as best we can, as in the past we did with IRIS and in the future we will do that with e-gates. As a result, we hope that we will be able to improve the service for all those people and improve the security that we can offer to the country in dealing with these matters.

[Lord Rogan]

My Lords, will the Minister make representation to the Government of the Republic of Ireland and request that they also review and, if necessary, improve their border securities, ensuring that persons arriving in the Republic of Ireland and then crossing into the United Kingdom by the unmanned and thus unchecked land border are given suitable clearance?

[Lord Henley]

The noble Lord will be well aware that we have common border arrangements with the Republic of Ireland and that they will continue, as is quite convenient. But I shall certainly make sure that appropriate representations are made to the Government of the Republic of Ireland.