Crime and Policing Bill

Lord Rogan Excerpts

Report stage
Wednesday 18th March 2026 Lords Chamber

[Lord Weir of Ballyholme (DUP)]

My Lords, I support the amendment in the names of my noble friend Lady Foster and others. It is right that we look to close the loophole. We need to look at how terrorists operate in the real world. The loophole that is there at present suggests that the current legislation’s wording is not quite fit for purpose.

I agree that the refinements made between Committee and Report are useful. First, I disagree that this would in any way restrict freedom of speech. Historic debate is to be valued, and I do not believe that this would in any way restrict that. The amendment focuses on the contemporary situation. Secondly, it is important that the position of the so-called lone wolf is covered—unfortunately, we have seen more instances of this: people who want to, in effect, wear the badge of a terrorist organisation but who may or may not be directly connected with that organisation. Whether it is in Manchester or in Sydney in recent days, we have seen the horrific situation of a radicalised individual or group of individuals perpetrating such attacks, and it is right that this is covered as well.

There are two principal reasons why I support this amendment and think it is necessary. The first, arguably the lesser of the two, is that it is dealing with the present. Unlike the noble Baroness, Lady Foster, and probably like most Members of this House, I have not been a victim of terrorism or had a family member who has been. All of us in that position can be thankful for that. Where we see people eulogising past terrorist actions for their own purposes—drawing people into their organisations or their way of thinking—it is deeply hurtful to the victims and relatives, whether that is in relation to terrorist atrocities that took place in Northern Ireland, the Manchester Arena bombing or the 7/7 attacks. The presentation of those who perpetrated these attacks as righteous martyrs, and people purveying the view that there was “no alternative”, is deeply hurtful to the living relatives of the victims. That reason alone is sufficient to make this change.

The bigger reason is looking to the future, and this is where we need to get real as regards terrorism. Terrorist organisations are not some closed cell or small group of people who simply never change and who wither on the vine as time passes. For any terrorist group to operate and continue its activities, it requires the influx of new blood, time and again.

One of the things that I find deeply disturbing is that a number of young people are naive and are drawn in; they are not simply handed a gun or a bomb on day one and told to go out and take it with them—they are drawn in bit by bit. The way in which terrorist organisations operate is to gradually indoctrinate those young people in a dangerous ideology and even more perverse methodology and gradually draw them in. In doing so, they get those people addicted to their methods—and past terrorism becomes, effectively, the gateway drug. Many young people, if we were to mention the 7/7 attacks, for example, would have no memory of them: they were before they were born, and they do not see the consequences and the hurt caused directly to those families or the evil done in society. It becomes a much easier sell for terrorist organisations to draw people in on that basis, and to present those who carried out those hideous attacks as being some form of martyr or indeed role model for the future.

To that extent, I do not care whether we are talking about Northern Ireland-based terrorism, whether it is the extremism of those who carry out violence on behalf of some Islamic extremist view, whether it is far-right terrorism or whether it is a terrorist group that is effectively a front organisation for some foreign power. The reality is that we judge terrorism not by its motivation but by its words and actions. There is a real danger of young people being radicalised and drawn in, with the presentation of the evils of the past as potential martyrs.

The argument will go that if, for example, we needed to create a united Ireland by violence 40 years ago and it was right then, surely it must be right now; that if white supremacism was right 30 years ago, it is right now; or that if having an Islamic caliphate across the world was right 20 years ago, it is right now. All those ideas are repugnant, but the logic is that if they are being used by terrorist organisations, using this level of loophole as the argument to draw young people in, we have a duty to protect society but also to protect our young people and prevent them being radicalised. That is why I think this is an absolutely necessary amendment that will help to protect society.

[Lord Rogan (UUP)]

My Lords, I also support this amendment. We have heard mention of the IRA. Those who lived in Northern Ireland through the Troubles know that Sinn Féin/IRA was the most hideous terrorist group—reduced to “Ra”. Last night, after celebrating St Patrick’s Day, five young people came on to the Tube dressed with tricolours and shouting “Up the Ra, up the Ra, up the Ra”, which only means support for the IRA. I do not think those young people fully realise the hurt and offence that gives to the victims of Sinn Féin/IRA. I fully support this amendment.

[Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I have a lot of sympathy with trying to tackle ways of taking away the romantic attachment to terrorism as some kind of heroic endeavour, so I completely understand the reasons for this amendment. However, I cannot see how it would work in practice at present. I cannot see how it would deal with a Rangers-Celtic match, or with people singing “The Fields of Athenry” versus those singing “The Sash”, those shouting “Up the Ra” and those shouting “No surrender”. There are slogans on both sides, all of them associated with the previous struggle. I do not know what would happen to those children if, shockingly, as the noble Baroness, Lady Foster, explained, they have balaclavas bought for them—then are they or their parents in scope? How do we deal with that? Goodness knows what you do about Kneecap, the band. I am all for banning them because they are hopeless, but they play on the very imagery that we are discussing.

We have a real problem on university campuses. Far too often, young people are cosplaying as jihadists in the way they dress. I understand that this is not a direct call to arms, but these Hamas wannabes are in a way justifying the type of—what they would call—defensive violence of 7 October. The Ayatollah Khamenei apologists justify IRGC violence, and the expert propagandism fills a society with narratives that I think are very dangerous in terms of young people being radicalised. But I just do not think this amendment can work, because I think we need to be much more courageous in dismantling those narratives, in going on to university campuses and taking on those who put forward critical theory policies that justify treating Israel as a terrorist pariah state and somehow turning a blind eye to the cosplaying radical jihadists.

Electric Cycles: Illegal Use on Roads

Lord Rogan Excerpts

Tuesday 10th June 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord. It is important that cyclists particularly understand and know the legislation that appertains to their responsibility in using a bike or e-bike. Going back to the point made earlier by the noble Lord, Lord Hogan-Howe, 324 offences were undertaken and arrests were made in the City of London; over 1,000 were undertaken in the remainder of the Metropolitan Police area, and there were many more across the country at large. For those offences, individuals need to know that, if you go through a traffic light, ride on a pavement or crash into somebody, there is a consequence for you if you are seen by a police officer and brought to account. The new offences will mean that the dangerous behaviour that the noble Lord has mentioned of potential injury or potential death by going across a zebra crossing or going through a red light will face a significant punishment of custodial terms. People—drivers, pedestrians and, dare I say it, cyclists—need to understand that.

[Lord Rogan (UUP)]

My Lords, electric cycles that meet the specific regulations are allowed to be used on public roads. There are numerous parts of the United Kingdom, including Northern Ireland, where electric scooters are banned on public roads. Despite this, they are often ridden openly and recklessly in these locations. What can the Minister and his ministerial colleagues do to persuade local police forces throughout the kingdom to use the powers given to them to confiscate electric scooters that are used contrary to the law?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The law is there for individuals to adhere to, and it is for the police, in the event of people not adhering to it, to collect evidence and put it to the Crown Prosecution Service, which can put it to the courts to issue penalties. We are trying to improve the level of the penalties and improve the ability of police to take action speedily rather than having to give warnings first. There are different arrangements in place in other parts of the United Kingdom, because some of the aspects we are bringing forward are devolved to England only or are matters for England and Wales through the police force. It is a serious issue, which I know every elected Member in the House of Commons and every Member in this House, takes extremely seriously, because we can see the visible impact of those offences on a daily basis. The commitment I am giving to the House is that, if the House passes the legislation, there will be additional measures and powers which will, I hope, impact upon the public awareness, which the noble Lord, Lord Davies, mentioned, and on criminal justice outcomes.

E-scooters

Lord Rogan Excerpts

Thursday 13th February 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I hope I have helped the House by saying that currently the use of those scooters in public places is illegal but they are allowed to be used on private land. There is the ability to have selected trials of hired e-scooters, in which my noble friend is participating, obviously. The Government intend to review how that trial has gone, to learn the lessons about safety, the use of those scooters, the costs and indeed the points that the noble Baronesses, Lady McIntosh and Lady Pidgeon, have mentioned. That review will take place over the next 12 months, and the issues that the noble Lord has raised will be forward policy which will lie with my noble friend Lord Hendy.

[Lord Rogan (UUP)]

My Lords, despite being banned in public places in Northern Ireland, e-scooters remain a common and worrying sight on the Province’s streets and roads. Last month, on the Floor of this House, the noble Lord, Lord Hendy, gave me a welcome commitment to launch a UK-wide consultation with all enforcement authorities to ensure that the laws on e-scooters are upheld. Is the Minister able to provide an update on what progress has been made in delivering on this commitment, and can he assure me that the Police Service of Northern Ireland will be fully involved?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The regulations that we are looking at in the crime and policing Bill will be England and Wales provisions, and they are in relation to the seizing of scooters if the police decide that they are being used to commit anti-social, illegal acts. The wide-ranging review of offences is ongoing. I suspect that transport issues are devolved in Northern Ireland, but I will check for the noble Lord. I will respond to him in due course. I will maintain my discussion on direct Home Office issues but will refer any points that have been raised here on transport issues so that my noble friend Lord Hendy is appraised of the feelings of the House.

British Nationality (Irish Citizens) Bill

Lord Rogan Excerpts

2nd reading
Friday 17th May 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Rogan (UUP)]

My Lords, I welcome the Bill. It is a proud moment for me to stand in your Lordships’ House today to support the Bill and the efforts of my noble friend Lord Hay of Ballyore in getting it one step closer to reaching the statute book.

Some of your Lordships may recall the last time we debated the issues the Bill addresses in this House, in 2022. It was obvious then, as I said in my speech on that occasion, that the bar on my noble friend and others like him to be recognised as true British citizens was not an anomaly but an abomination.

As chairman of the Ulster Unionist Party on Good Friday 1998, I accept my share of responsibility that people born in the Republic of Ireland were not included in the Belfast agreement’s definition of “the people of Northern Ireland”, and did not therefore benefit from its birthright provisions on identity and citizenship. However, many years have passed since then, and the error should have been corrected long before now.

Alongside my noble friend Lord Hay, much credit for where we have reached should go to the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee in the other place, which in 2021 conducted an inquiry into the barriers to UK citizenship for Northern Ireland residents. The committee’s members recommended that a bespoke solution was needed for Irish citizens to be granted UK citizenship, reflecting

“personal ties, relationships, geopolitical realities and movement of people”

between the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland. It also argued that the application fee, then £1,330—as mentioned by my noble friend, and which has risen in the intervening period to £1,630—should be abolished, alongside the requirement to pass the Life in the UK test. His Majesty’s Government’s response at the time could perhaps be described as dismissive, indeed verging on cold. However, a commitment was given by a Northern Ireland Office Minister at a subsequent Westminster Hall debate to reflect further on the points raised.

That period of reflection appeared to be open-ended, until January this year, when His Majesty’s Government committed to amending the current arrangements, as part of the Donaldson deal to persuade the DUP to reform the Stormont Executive. Nevertheless, it would be churlish not to welcome the outcome, which, if the Bill receives Royal Assent, could benefit more than 30,000 people living in Northern Ireland and more than 250,000 across the UK as a whole.

I commend the sensible amendments made to the Bill in the other place, including the removal of the requirement for successful applicants to undertake a life in the UK test or prove their language skills. However, I note with significant alarm that the cost of applying for a UK passport via this route is yet to be finalised. Indeed, in Committee in the other place, the Legal Migration Minister Tom Pursglove said that fees were

“under active consideration as part of a wider piece of work. It is being carried out in the usual way when it comes to fee setting for borders and migrations services”.—[Official Report, Commons, British Citizenship (Northern Ireland) Bill Committee, 17/4/24; col. 8.]

Perhaps I am a sceptic, but I have also served in your Lordships’ House for more than a quarter of a century. In his wind-up, I hope the Minister will reassure me that there will be no additional charges to applicants beyond the standard cost of a British passport. To add a premium on top would be wrong and, most importantly, send the opposite of a warm welcome to the newest British citizens. It is with pleasure that I support the passage of the Bill.

Illegal Migration Act: Northern Ireland

Lord Rogan Excerpts

Wednesday 15th May 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, again, I was very clear at the start; we have consistently made it clear that the provisions in the Good Friday agreement, referred to in the Windsor Framework, were developed specifically against the background of Northern Ireland’s unique circumstances. That position has not changed.

[Lord Rogan (UUP)]

My Lords, the Minister will recall that last week in this House I raised my concerns about the Irish Government’s plan to mobilise 100 Garda officers to stop asylum seekers crossing into the Republic of Ireland from Northern Ireland, in effect, creating a hard border on the island. I asked the Minister directly to clarify what His Majesty’s Government were doing to remedy this situation, and his response was that he did not think it was appropriate to

“comment on the internal policies of another country”.—[Official Report, 9/5/24; col. 315.]

Given the potential consequences for Northern Ireland of the Belfast High Court judgment, does he now believe that it is time for the Government in general and the Prime Minister in particular to prioritise the well-being of the people of the Province of Northern Ireland over the shallow quest for voters in Great Britain?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, I would go back to my original answer of last week: I still do not think it is appropriate to comment on the internal policies of another country. As I have repeatedly said—and as I will continue to say as often as I am asked—the Government will take all steps to defend their position, including through an appeal. I would also say that this is not about prioritising one part of our country over another. It is about maintaining the UK’s border integrity.

Inadmissible Asylum Seekers

Lord Rogan Excerpts

Thursday 9th May 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Rogan (UUP)]

My Lords, I also congratulate the noble Lord, Lord German, on securing this timely debate. The asylum issue has been high on the national political agenda for a considerable period but, until recently, it was not a particularly prominent subject of debate or discussion in Northern Ireland. In common with the rest of the United Kingdom, there were frustrations with some hotels being unavailable to holidaymakers and others because they were being used to accommodate asylum seekers. Other than that, it was seen as an issue more relevant to Great Britain.

That has changed dramatically over the past two weeks. In one of his first acts, the new Irish Prime Minister Simon Harris asked his Justice Secretary to bring forward legislation to enable asylum seekers entering the Republic of Ireland from Northern Ireland to be sent back to the United Kingdom. It is the Irish Government’s view that 80% of recent asylum seekers arriving in the Republic have come across the Irish land border. The reason, according to the Irish Deputy Prime Minister, Micheál Martin, is the deterrent effect of the United Kingdom Government’s Rwanda Act, with which your Lordships are all too familiar. These comments were seized on by our own Prime Minister as something akin to a cause for celebration. Other senior members of His Majesty’s Government have expressed similar views.

As noble Lords will be aware, we have an open border on the island of Ireland. The common travel area is an arrangement which began in 1922 and includes a basic right for United Kingdom and Irish citizens to travel freely between the two countries. While the major political parties in both jurisdictions have supported the open border concept, Sinn Féin/IRA had always been particularly adamant that everyone should be able to cross back and forth from north to south free of impediment.

However, the developments I have described have provoked something of a rethink from Sinn Féin supporters. In an opinion poll published last weekend in the Sunday Independent, 52% of Sinn Féin supporters said they now want checkpoints on the border to limit the number of asylum seekers arriving from Northern Ireland. That number is even higher than the 50% of respondents in the Republic of Ireland who said they hold the same view. According to a recent opinion poll, 82% of people in the Republic of Ireland also want immigrants who have travelled through Northern Ireland to be deported back to the United Kingdom.

The Irish Government’s initial response to this developing situation was to pledge to send 100 Gardai officers to police the border—the only land border between the United Kingdom and a member state of the EU. However, they now appear to have backed away from this. In the meantime, Rishi Sunak has made clear that His Majesty’s Government refuse to take back any refugees from the Republic of Ireland unless France agrees to take back refugees who crossed the English Channel to get to the United Kingdom in the first place. Put simply, the situation is nothing short of a mess.

Your Lordships will most probably be aware that a general election must take place in the Republic of Ireland no later than March 2025. The hardening of public opinion on immigration and asylum south of the border is quickly being reflected in changing policy stances taken by the political parties fighting for votes in the Republic of Ireland. It has served as a reminder that Sinn Féin’s capacity for hypocrisy and political opportunism knows no bounds. The party of open borders and unbridled immigration is undergoing a conversion.

But they are not alone in the hypocrisy stakes. One cannot but recall the recently departed Irish Prime Minster Leo Varadkar travelling to Brussels to brandish a photograph of a bombed customs post and insist that any border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland was unthinkable. No doubt he was still intending to stand for re-election before embarking on that grossly irresponsible and offensive stunt.

One can only hope that, with the UK general election only months away, Rishi Sunak’s position on the border issue is not motivated by the shallow quest for votes in Great Britain over the well-being of the people of Northern Ireland. The noble Lord, Lord German, asked several questions which need answering; I simply ask one more. What are His Majesty’s Government intending to do—in partnership with the Irish Government—to remedy this situation?

There is a time and place for politics; all of us in this House understand that. However, history tells us that playing politics with the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland is generally helpful to no one in the long run. I look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say.

Republic of Ireland: British Passports

Lord Rogan Excerpts

Wednesday 26th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Rogan (UUP)]

My Lords, I too welcome the Minister to his place this evening. I am sure that we all wish him well in his new role.

It is a pleasure to speak in this debate, which I congratulate my friend the noble Lord, Lord Hay, on securing. Your Lordships will be well aware of his long-held and understandably strong views on the matter before us tonight, which he has again outlined with the customary clarity we have come to expect from him. While we may be concentrating on his dilemma this evening, the anomaly applies equally to many more persons in a similar situation. My noble friend has been a passionate campaigner on the right of people living in Northern Ireland, but born in the Republic of Ireland, to hold a United Kingdom passport. This is an incredibly personal matter for him, and understandably so.

As the House will be aware, the noble Lord, Lord Hay, was first elected to Londonderry City Council more than four decades ago and, in 1993, served as the mayor. He was elected to the Northern Ireland Assembly in 1998 in the wake of the Belfast agreement, and held the senior position of Speaker from 2007 to 2014. He is also a prominent member of both the Orange Order and the Apprentice Boys of Derry. I am proud to have marched with Willy Hay on many occasions down the years.

In short, and despite the occasional political differences he and I may have had, there are few Northern Ireland citizens more committed to their British identity than the noble Lord, Lord Hay. As such, it should be described not as an anomaly but as an abomination that he is not allowed or entitled to a British passport as of right.

The noble Lord mentioned the Good Friday agreement, as did the noble Lord, Lord Browne. Despite being on opposite sides of the debate in 1998, I am sure the noble Lords would agree that the Belfast agreement was a huge game-changer with regard to national identity. Under the provisions of that agreement, Northern Ireland residents can apply for an Irish passport, and many, from both political traditions, have chosen to do so. In contrast, people resident in Northern Ireland but born in the Republic of Ireland are not automatically entitled to a UK passport, even if, as in the case the noble Lord, they have lived there for many decades, paid their taxes there and, in his case, made a significant contribution to the public life of Northern Ireland.

Speaking in another place last week, the Northern Ireland Office Minister Steve Baker proudly described himself as “defiantly and ferociously pro-union”. However, he proceeded to describe his holding of a United Kingdom passport as

“an administrative thing, not a definition of who I am”.

He added:

“I gently make that point to illustrate that perhaps not all of us feel exactly the same way about our passport”.—[Official Report, Commons, 18/10/22; col. 242WH.]


Mr Baker has not been in post for very long and, with the ministerial shuffles currently going on, he might not stay in place much longer. However, I respectfully suggest to your Lordships that this Minister’s understanding of the unionist mindset in Northern Ireland remains very much in the remedial stage.

It will shock this House to learn that, despite his fresh-faced youthfulness and boundless energy, my friend the noble Lord, Lord Hay, was born in fact in 1950. However, that makes him one of an estimated 40,000 people born in the Republic of Ireland after 1949 and resident in Northern Ireland who are currently expected to apply for naturalisation before being entitled to a UK passport. That application currently comes at a cost of £1,330 and the process includes a requirement to pass the Life in the UK test and attend a citizenship ceremony. For people such as my noble friend, who have lived in the Province for many decades, it is nothing short of demeaning that this should be the case.

I commend the work of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee in another place which last year conducted an inquiry into the barriers to UK citizenship for Northern Ireland residents. The committee concluded that a bespoke solution was required for Irish citizens to gain UK citizenship, reflecting

“personal ties, relationships, geopolitical realities and movement of people”

between the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland. It also recommended that the current £1,330 application fee should be abolished, describing it as

“at worst indefensible, and at best unreasonable and excessive.”

I recognise the UK Government’s desire to better control our borders in a post-Brexit world, and I support this approach in principle. However, Northern Ireland is different, not least because of the 300-mile land border with our friends in the Republic, incorporating more than 280 crossing points. The issue we are debating today has nothing to do with Brexit. This is a matter which has been around for many years and which successive United Kingdom Governments have failed to deal with, hence the reason why my friend the noble Lord, Lord Hay, has rightly felt compelled to continue his high-profile campaign, not just for himself but on behalf of the many others in his position.

The United Kingdom is a welcoming country and I would argue, without fear of contradiction, that Northern Ireland is its most welcoming component part. Like the noble Lord, Lord Hay, I am a committed unionist, and unlike many UK government Ministers down the years I am proud to describe myself as a persuader for the union. I want as many people as possible living in Northern Ireland to support the British identity in Northern Ireland and to embrace it collectively. It is something to be cherished, of that there is no doubt, but also something which should be shared.

My friend the noble Lord, Lord Hay, is every bit as British as I am. He is every bit as British as everybody in this Room tonight. He and others like him should have that identity recognised in the same way as my British identity is recognised, and noble Lords’ British identity is recognised, by having the automatic right to hold a British passport. I commend my noble friend for bringing forward this important debate and I hope the Minister will finally signal a change of approach on behalf of His Majesty’s Government in his closing remarks. The noble Lord, Lord Hay, has my full support in what he is seeking to achieve.

Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill

Lord Rogan Excerpts

Lords Hansard - part two & Committee stage
Wednesday 17th November 2021 Lords Chamber

Clause 163 agreed.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Rogan) (UUP)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, will be taking part remotely in debate on the following amendment.

 

Amendment 240A

Moved by

E-scooters

Lord Rogan Excerpts

Wednesday 26th May 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

All of what the noble Lord says is true. E-scooters are different from e-bikes in that you actually have to make some effort to propel the e-bike, whereas the e-scooter is self-propelling. I think they are here to stay, but at the heart of this is the safety of other people riding bikes or, indeed, driving cars, as well the as safety of pedestrians, particularly disabled ones, as my noble friend mentioned.

[Lord Rogan (UUP)]

E-scooters are currently banned in Northern Ireland, but just last week the Belfast Telegraph reported that the PSNI had stepped up enforcement actions against these vehicles and their riders after noticing their increased popularity. Figures provided by local councils show that 210 people have been injured in e-scooter incidents since they were legalised in England last summer. I urge the Minister to share these statistics and any related background information she holds with the devolved Administrations, including Northern Ireland, in case they may be minded to follow Her Majesty’s Government’s misguided and dangerous policy on e-scooters.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, we regularly engage with the devolved Administrations, and I shall certainly take that back.

Security: ID Cards

Lord Rogan Excerpts

Thursday 20th July 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord mentions the Verify system, which is a very good way for people to prove who they are online. There are a mixture of different ways in which people can prove identity for different purposes, and the noble Lord is right to raise that.

[Lord Rogan (UUP)]

My Lords, in elections in Northern Ireland, voters must provide an identification document, such as a driving licence, passport or social security card, to be able to vote. This is acceptable to the electors in Northern Ireland and causes no objections whatever. Surely the same could apply to the ID card throughout the UK in this current security situation.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, the Government have announced plans to pilot the use of various forms of documentation as proof of identity when voting in specified local authority areas during the local government elections in 2018. There are no plans, however, to establish a specific electoral identity card pilot at this stage.