Health Protection (Coronavirus, Collection of Contact Details etc and Related Requirements) Regulations 2020

Lord Robathan Excerpts

Wednesday 7th October 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, with whom I find myself almost exclusively in agreement—that is sometimes a little worrying, and she may be worried as well. She has pointed out how confusing this package of regulations is, and not just these ones. I have been looking at them and I am pretty confused. They are profoundly antipathetic to traditional British civil liberties. They are also unworkable, as shown by the problems we have discovered with the test and trace system. Yesterday evening, I went to a restaurant with my wife. We were the only people there. The proprietor was beside himself. Before these and other regulations were laid last month, his business was picking up, but this package of regulations is destroying the hospitality industry. That is a huge cost to the economy and there will be escalating unemployment, so I have to say that I find this extraordinary.

Yesterday, I received a reply to a Parliamentary Question that I put down some time ago. In fact, it was given by Professor Sir Ian Diamond, of the UK Statistics Authority. The figures show that 14.4% of those aged under 65 without known comorbidities die from this virus, which makes for something in the region of 800 deaths since February. Some 450 people die from cancer every day. Every death is tragic, but the impact of these regulations is that in fact more people are dying from cancer than might be necessary because of the impact on the NHS.

The totality of these restrictions is causing untold harm and unnecessary deaths:

“Keeping these measures in place until a vaccine is available will cause irreparable damage, with the underprivileged disproportionately harmed.”


That quote is from the Great Barrington Declaration, which noble Lords will find in the media at the moment. It is a petition started by leading epidemiologists and public health scientists. I urge the Government to show courageous leadership and ignore the hysterical media and focus groups and change tack, rather than double down on their policies. Allow the vulnerable to shield themselves and to take sensible precautions, and allow society to get on with life. The impact on our children’s future and the economy is already devastating, with no end in sight for the catastrophic social and economic damage being caused.

Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (No. 2) (England) (Amendment) (No. 4) Regulations 2020

Lord Robathan Excerpts

Tuesday 6th October 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, I give my commiserations to my noble friend the Minister, who yet again finds himself in the stocks on this particular debate. I support my noble friend Lord Lamont’s regret Motion, which was introduced with typical aplomb and great good humour. I point out to the House that humour and ridicule are not far separated. I hope that he might divide the House, but he seems to be a little bit pusillanimous on this, which is not like him at all.

By what can we judge the rule of six? There was no consultation, there has been no parliamentary scrutiny until today, and, as the Motion says, it is totally impractical. Every day, and yesterday would be no exception, an average of 1,700 people die in the United Kingdom. According to the National Health Service, yesterday the total number of coronavirus deaths, every one tragic, was 19. Could my noble friend confirm that that is correct? The NHS news release yesterday of deaths in hospital in the preceding 24 hours was 10, all aged between 67 and 91, and all but one patient, who was aged 85, had known underlying health conditions.

Does my noble friend think, therefore, that the rule of six is working? Surely it has not had long enough to stop infections, and it has been widely ignored, as we hear. He said that it would reduce by one-third the number of people gathering, but I am not sure that is enough to stop the spread of infection. Does he think that actually this rule of six is entirely pointless, and that it is entirely pointless to stop young people meeting as they are not going to suffer serious illness or death? Could he also explain “long Covid”, to which he often refers, because is not any respiratory illness difficult to overcome? If you have pneumonia, it is quite likely that you may spend up to six months with effects from that.

Finally, on testing, what proportion—I am told it is a high proportion—of these tests bring back false positives? It seems to me that the testing, and the number of infections, is not the most important thing. The most important thing is who is dying and who is suffering very serious illness as a result of getting Covid.

Hospitals and Nursing Homes: Do Not Resuscitate Notices

Lord Robathan Excerpts

Thursday 1st October 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, the benefits of living wills are enormous, both for those entering the last stages of their life and their loved ones. It is something that we are keen to encourage. I do not know the precise arrangements for how GPs play a role in that, but I will be glad to write to the noble Baroness and explain what provisions are in place for encouraging the use of living wills.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, I commend my noble friend for his balanced comments on this extremely fraught situation—I think everything has just about been said. Every life is, of course, to be valued but many of us as we get older—dare I say, we are quite a lot older in this House than the average population—will be looking at whether we want a do not resuscitate order in our living will. That is why I commend the idea from the noble Baroness, Lady Wheatcroft, of spreading this information around.

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My noble friend puts it all very well. It is my birthday today, so I am feeling a little bit older and thoughtful on these subjects. On a serious point, living wills have enormous benefits and give peace of mind to those who enter nursing homes and hospitals, and their loved ones. We will look carefully at this important point and I will share my correspondence with the noble Baroness, Lady Wheatcroft, with my noble friend.

Coronavirus Act 2020: Temporary Provisions

Lord Robathan Excerpts

Monday 28th September 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, I first pay tribute to my noble friend Lord Bethell and, indeed, give him my sincere sympathy. I think he was appointed to be a Health Minister at the beginning of this year, and, in his worst nightmares, he could never have imagined that he would be here every day repeating Statements, defending regulations and whatever else. I give my sympathy and best wishes—even when I do not agree with him.

Paragraph 7 of the Government’s Coronavirus Act analysis, which was sent to us all last week, states that, in a “proportionate response”,

“A balance has had to be struck”.


Paragraph 20 states:

“The government’s objective is to delay and flatten the peak of the pandemic … so that we minimise suffering and save lives.”


However, the next paragraph states an intention to

“minimise disruption to everyday life”.

In this regard, it especially mentions education and the progression to employment of the young. All of these are laudable intentions.

The original Motion that I put down last week was somewhat more forthright than today’s, but wiser counsel from friends prevailed. Therefore, my Motion today is very close to the Brady amendment that will be put to the Commons on Wednesday. I will pursue two arguments. The first is that government policy has been inconsistent, incoherent, confusing and entirely disproportionate: a public health crisis has been turned into a catastrophe. The second—which may find more sympathy in this Chamber—is that our cherished and accountable democratic process has been replaced by authoritarian rule by diktat.

Six months ago, there was a lack of knowledge and a real concern about coronavirus, so the imposition of emergency measures was perhaps understandable. We now know—as we knew then—that the virus is unpleasant, virulent, highly contagious and dangerous. We now have six months of evidence to study, but we still do not know everything. Indeed, we know remarkably little about this virus. Although confirmed cases stand at approximately 435,000, there have of course been many, many more.

My unscientific and anecdotal view is that the virus swept through the population in the first few months of this year, killing the most vulnerable and infecting many, many millions. However, nobody really knows. I am not a scientist; I do not know much about T cells or whether the common cold—apparently caused by another coronavirus—can give some resistance to the virus. I do not know much about vitamin D—except that you need sunlight—or the Gompertz curve. However, I can see that the graphs of fatalities in past epidemics tend to follow a similar pattern, and those in Europe seem to be doing so now.

We do not even know very much about the symptoms of coronavirus infection: they keep expanding. My son was sent home from his college on 12 March with a high fever and persistent cough; he recovered quickly—he is young and healthy—but he had no sense of smell or taste. Of course, in March that was entirely irrelevant because it did not become a symptom until late May. Scientific advice, models and predictions have varied widely—from the apocalyptic half a million deaths mentioned by the discredited Neil Ferguson in March to contradictory scenarios. The international scene remains very concerning and, of course, reasonable precautions should be taken, especially by the elderly and vulnerable.

Unfortunately, many in the media seize upon unsubstantiated scare stories, and I particularly mention the BBC, which spreads fear and despair and treats the opinions of the discredited Professor Ferguson as gospel. These fears are amplified by some politicians: Sadiq Khan, Nicola Sturgeon and Mark Drakeford. However, my unscientific view remains that neither they nor anybody else really knows. Government policy has reflected that, as advice has changed weekly, if not daily. It is not that many weeks since we were told that wearing a face mask was unnecessary and possibly even increased the viral load if one was already infected. Therefore, please let us not suspend our critical faculties; let us look at the evidence.

First, although infection rates are important, we have been exhorted throughout this crisis that this is about saving lives, so it is deaths and very serious illness or hospital admissions that should be our focus. The data is certainly not perfect, but we do know—from Cancer Research UK, for instance—that 450 people die from cancer every day. Coronavirus restrictions have caused a backlog in referrals for treatment, which is probably leading to unnecessary deaths from cancer. We do know that restrictions are having a very bad effect on mental health, particularly depression, and that domestic abuse and violence has increased. It seems that suicides may have increased. We know that elderly people are dying alone, feeling deserted and surrounded by strangers in blue plastic sheets.

We know that government figures put the number of deaths from coronavirus of those under 65 at about 6,000 over the last six months. Most of these individuals had comorbidities such as diabetes or obesity. We also know that the chances of dying from coronavirus are minimal if one is under the age of 25.

We know that our children’s education is being dreadfully harmed and their future mortgaged—as is our country’s future prosperity—and that our economy is being trashed and livelihoods and lives destroyed. We know that these tragic deaths from coronavirus—which are overwhelmingly among the elderly, frail and those with comorbidities—currently account for approximately 2% of deaths in this country, where 623,000 people died last year, which averages 1,700 a day or 11,000 a week. Therefore, are these restrictions meeting the objective of saving lives?

This is not the Black Death, nor is it the great plague, the Spanish flu or a war. My right honourable friend Rishi Sunak said of the virus on Thursday in the House of Commons that

“we must learn to live with it, and live without fear.” —[Official Report, Commons, 24/9/20; cols. 1155.]

I entirely agree; we need a proportionate response and courageous leadership.

I accept that many of your Lordships will not agree with my views on government policy or on the restrictions imposed on our liberty. However, I hope that you may support my second point and the focus of the Motion: we need proper accountability to our national Parliament, which has been totally bypassed over the last six months. We have seen no cost-benefit analyses, detailed impact assessments or proper risk assessments. Let the Government put the evidence before Parliament, which can then decide whether government policies are appropriate and proportionate and, indeed, whether the deaths from coronavirus are not outweighed by the enormous harm caused to life by the restrictions.

Currently, we have students locked into halls of residence, sporting fixtures for the young cancelled, holidays ruined, theatres closed, and bars and restaurants closing down because they are unviable. Christmas is being cancelled and some elderly people, who fear this may be their last Christmas, will be unable to see their families. A Cabinet Minister has called on neighbours to ring the police if there are seven people in the house next door. There is a national curfew at 10 pm, the first ever in peacetime, I believe, and the rule of six is based on—what exactly? All this without any proper scrutiny.

Our free society is being turned into something that I do not recognise, as these illogical and draconian measures restrict the liberty of our people. This is rule by decree, something more usually associated with authoritarian Governments. This unaccountable and rather unusual assembly where we sit is not the place to hold the Government to account. That is the role of the elected representatives of the people: Members of the House of Commons, who will have to answer to their constituents.

However, we can ask questions. This afternoon, we can show that we support the amendment tabled by my honourable friend Sir Graham Brady and apparently supported by the Opposition, which will be put down on Wednesday. I hope all Peers will support my Motion in order to allow this House to express its opinion on the way the Government are currently acting—in, frankly, a cavalier manner without any accountability. I intend to divide the House, and I hope others feel as strongly as I do on this matter.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, I remind noble Lords of the time-limited nature of this debate. The time limit for Back-Bench speakers is four minutes, to allow for a full response by the Minister at the end.

Health Protection (Coronavirus, Wearing of Face Coverings in a Relevant Place) (England) Regulations 2020

Lord Robathan Excerpts

Friday 18th September 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Robathan (Con) [V]]

My Lords, since the beginning of this crisis we have been exhorted to save lives, a slogan that we all understand and we all support. Not far from where I am sitting, Oadby and Wigston Borough was put back today under restrictions, while there has been a lockdown again in Leicester itself, which is next door. Leicester is a serious area for Covid. However, the last death from coronavirus in a Leicester hospital took place on 31 August. Could the Minister please explain that evidence?

It is not infections as such that matter, although they are of course relevant and important, but hospitalisation and death. Could the Minister now answer the question that I asked last week: how many people under the age of 65, without underlying health conditions such as diabetes, have died in the last six months? I believe that some 6,000 people under the age of 65 have died, but how many were actually healthy? Remember that 11,000 people die every week in this country.

On face masks, as my noble friend Lady Noakes, whom I support, mentioned, the WHO said until 6 June that there was “no evidence” that healthy people should wear masks. On 4 March Chris Whitty said that

“our advice is clear: that wearing a mask if you don’t have an infection reduces the risk almost not at all. So we do not advise that.”

On 28 April, Matt Hancock said that the evidence was “weak”. On 15 June he decided to make masks compulsory on public transport and on 24 July compulsory in shops, yet on 28 August the Deputy Chief Medical Officer, Jenny Harries, said:

“The evidence on face coverings is not very strong in either direction.”


On 14 September face coverings were made mandatory in indoor public places in Wales but they had not been for the previous seven weeks as they had been in England. Even SAGE said that

“there is a small benefit but it’s based on very weak evidence.”

Indeed, back in the spring we were told that face masks could actually increase the amount of virus that an infected person inhaled and therefore might be dangerous. I think we can all agree that this has been confusing.

In this public health crisis, we need courageous political leadership. Self-evidently, the scientists do not agree, so we cannot follow the science. We can only follow the evidence of serious harm and death. What evidence is there that face coverings are saving lives? My own view is that many of those who died earlier in this epidemic were likely to have died anyway and that, while it is tragic, they were the most vulnerable. It is contradictory to say, “Go back to work and take the Underground but be afraid, be very afraid and wear a face mask”. This policy is confused, contradictory and not based on any clear evidence.

I took advice on dividing the House on this measure but these rather ridiculous non-debates make it difficult. It would have been somewhat self-indulgent. I note that the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, may do so but, like my noble friend Lady Noakes, I cannot support something that says I support the measures. We need clear, courageous leadership based on strong evidence to get us out of this crisis. I fear that we have yet to see a clarity of policy on coronavirus.

Covid-19 Update

Lord Robathan Excerpts

Thursday 10th September 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, this country has been absolutely on the front foot on vaccines. We have negotiated agreements with six different vaccine providers for 340 million courses of vaccine. We are completely open to anything that is effective, and we have championed the cause of fair vaccine distribution on a global basis.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, I regret to say that this Government’s policy on Covid is contradictory, confusing, hugely damaging to the country and, frankly, nonsensical. Should I have the opportunity, I will vote against it. We were exhorted, from the very beginning of this public health crisis, to save lives. As noble Lords know, some 11,000 people die on average every week in the UK under normal circumstances, so can the Minister tell us how many people under the age of 65 have died of coronavirus in the last 26 weeks? Of those, how many did not have some serious underlying health condition such as diabetes, obesity, respiratory problems or the like? If he does not have those figures to hand, perhaps he might write to me and put them in the public domain by putting them in the Library.

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, I entirely welcome the challenge from my noble friend but, respectfully, I completely disagree with his approach. I want to flag two issues. The first is the enormous public support for the Government’s response to Covid and their adherence to the measures we have introduced. The second is the recent King’s College survey, published today, showing that on top of the deaths, 300,000 people in the UK have reported symptoms that last more than a month and 60,000 have been ill for more than three months. The effects of this disease go far beyond the “simply recover the next day” effects of flu; it is a profound illness that we are right to try to suppress.

Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (Leicester) Regulations 2020

Lord Robathan Excerpts

Wednesday 29th July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Robathan (Con) [V]]

My Lords, like my noble and learned friend Lord Garnier, I used to represent large parts of the original lockdown area—Braunstone Town, Thorpe Astley, Glen Parva and others, all in Blaby district and now outside the area. However, where I sit, were it to be necessary, I would go to a hospital in Leicester, because those are my nearest hospitals. I was speaking to two health professionals at the University Hospitals of Leicester NHS Trust on Monday. They told me that at the beginning of the crisis in March, everyone was worried about the hospitals being swamped, as I think we all were. That did not happen. Now, the hospitals are still not particularly full; indeed, they are not that busy, according to these people.

As the Minister said, on 29 June, the rapid investigation team from PHE, I think, reported that there were six to 10 new CV admissions each day in Leicester, and on 22 July, the University Hospitals of Leicester Trust reported four deaths in the previous week—that is, the week before last. All were people over 50, like me. We know that the infection has spread largely in cramped sweatshops, as mentioned by my noble friend Lord Holmes. These stayed working illegally throughout the crisis, illegally paying workers much less than the minimum wage, and certainly with some illegal immigrants working there who did not speak English or know their rights. This has been going on for many years, a fact to which public authorities, including some MPs in Leicester, have turned a blind eye.

Presumably, these regulations are about protecting people from death and serious incapacity. I believe they are disproportionate, so will my noble friend tell the House how many deaths there have been from CV in Leicester, compared to the general population of the UK? Although he will not be responsible, will he say what action Her Majesty’s Government will be taking to pursue those who fail to pay workers in their sweatshops the minimum wage, and the rest? This is a scandal that needs addressing.

Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (No. 2) (England) Regulations 2020

Lord Robathan Excerpts

Friday 24th July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Robathan (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I will not divide the House, but I oppose these regulations. My noble friend said that it would be helpful to clarify the situation, but I regret that there is very little clarity. Having argued against the lockdown in March, I now see confusion. The most egregious example is face masks. We were told that they were ineffective, possibly dangerous. Now they are mandatory. We were told to go back to work, but it is too dangerous to go back without a face mask. Surely this is contradictory.

The truth is that nobody knows much about this virus still, but we do know that 45,000 deaths have been attributed to it. Possibly that number is too low, possibly too high. Nobody really knows. We do know that, on average, around 11,000 people die normally—if I may put it that way—each week. We have had four weeks of normal deaths attributed to coronavirus, every one a tragedy, in four months. They have mostly been elderly and frail, or with underlying health conditions. Those with risks such as these should shield themselves and take care. Perhaps we should all wear masks in public places, but lift all other restrictions, especially on the young—by which I mean the under-40s or under-50s—to get the country back to work, to education and to normality.

Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (England) (Amendment) (No. 3) Regulations 2020

Lord Robathan Excerpts

Thursday 25th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Robathan (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I am sure we all welcome any easing of these lockdown restrictions, although it is rather extraordinary to be discussing these regulations weeks late and after we moved beyond them yesterday. My plea, which the Minister has heard before, is that we should stop suspending our critical faculties. The Government’s own figures, which are probably inaccurate, state that five children under the age of 18 have died from this ghastly virus. The death rate in the population is less than one in 1,500—that is 43,000 deaths in a population of 66 million. My maths makes that less than a 0.065% death rate.

Each death is a tragedy, but we know that the elderly, the infirm and those with underlying health conditions are the most affected and at risk. They should shield themselves and we should give them support. But the young—indeed, those under 40 or 50—are at little risk of death, so let people get on with their lives normally. Scientific advice has been uncertain and contradictory, together with the absurd modelling by Neil Ferguson, from the very beginning. We have mortgaged our children’s future and ruined our economy on the basis of a fear that many believe will prove not to have been justified. To my noble friend I say: please move faster to lift all restrictions. I do not care if we all have to wear face masks or, indeed, if I, aged 70 next year, feel that I have to stay at home, but I do care that we get the country back to work—to a situation where our children do not have to pay for actions and policies taken during this pandemic for the next 50 years.

Covid-19: R Rate and Lockdown Measures

Lord Robathan Excerpts

Tuesday 9th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell [V]]

The fear of a second wave is profound. We have seen what happened in Singapore and we remain vigilant. However, enormous progress is being made against the epidemic, as the noble Lord will have seen from recent figures. We have put in huge infrastructure to protect ourselves in the winter, which is the moment of greatest anxiety. That includes Europe’s biggest testing programme, stockpiling medicines, upgrading NHS capacity, the recruitment of returning staff to the NHS and—as I mentioned to the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton—the implementation of a local action plan regime which will give teeth to our measures on a local basis.

[Lord Robathan (Con) [V]]

As my noble friend has admitted, the scientific advice and modelling have been confused, often contradictory and changing as nobody knows a lot about this virus or its progress. Many believe that the virus arrived here as early as November and has swept through the population, often without symptoms. The figures for deaths may be too low or too high because nobody really knows. We have mortgaged this country’s future and our children’s future on uncertain science. The Health Secretary has now described the virus as

“in retreat across the land”.

Will the Government lift all lockdowns now, or as soon as possible, as has happened in New Zealand? Let us all hope the entire lockdown was not a catastrophic error.

[Lord Bethell [V]]

I share my noble friend’s frustration that this disease has proved a horrid and at times confusing foe, but I testify to the strength of the scientific advice we have been given. We do not expect scientists to agree. We believe that a degree of conflict is the right approach to trying to find the right answer. The role of the CMO and the Government’s chief scientist is to distil the advice of a great many sources into the best possible advice. We expect there to be a dialectic, with some form of conflict. I do not believe that we have made profound mistakes on the science. In fact, I believe that the scientists have been wise and thoughtful in the advice and recommendations that they have given us.