European Commission: UK Member

Debate between Lord Richard and Lord Pearson of Rannoch

Thursday 10th July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch (UKIP)]

My Lords, are the Government aware that our new Commissioner will have to swear sole allegiance to the European Union, ignoring our national interest?

[Lord Richard (Lab)]

Not true.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

Actually it is true; it is in the treaties. Does that not rule out privy counsellors, who have taken an oath of sole allegiance to the Queen?

European Union Bill

Debate between Lord Richard and Lord Pearson of Rannoch

Thursday 23rd June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

I think that the noble Lord will find that I have cleared this intervention with the usual channels, and I am sorry if he was not part of it.

I think I was saying that even the political class now realises that the euro has become the disaster—

[Lord Richard]

Is the noble Lord seriously suggesting that the usual channels have agreed that he should say what he has been saying about people in this House who are in receipt of pensions from Europe? Is he seriously suggesting that that has been agreed by the usual channels? If not, will he withdraw it?

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

If any noble Lord wishes to move that I be no longer heard, I am quite happy to debate that, but in the mean time, I believe I did clear this. It may be that they did not have a meeting. I think I am entirely in order to express regrets about this Bill as it passes towards the House of Commons and to say why.

[Lord Richard]

The noble Lord says that he believes he cleared it. Is he not sure that he cleared it? If he is not sure, does he not think that he should not have made those statements?

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, I started my intervention with the leave of the House. If the noble Lord wishes to remove the leave of the House, he is free to do so, and we can debate whether or not I should be heard. I appreciate that noble and Europhile Lords do not wish to hear what I am saying, but unless it is moved against me, I intend to continue saying what I am saying.

So, for the third time, I was hoping that the political class has come to realise what a disaster the euro is. Many of us predicted it. It is a disaster which is being visited on the hapless people of Europe, now particularly Greece, but soon on other countries too.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Richard]

He said he would.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

If the noble Lord will hold with me for another few seconds, I think that what I am saying is worth having on the record.

I was asking the Government why they cannot see that democracy is the only reliable guarantor of peace and long-term prosperity, and that the sooner we get back to a Europe of democratic nations, freely trading and collaborating together with all their powers returned to their national Parliaments, the better it will be for all the peoples of Europe and, indeed, of the rest of the world beyond. That is entirely in context with the passage of this Bill as it goes to the House of Commons, and as this is the third time I have asked the noble Lord, Lord Howell, the question, I would be grateful for his reply.

European Union Bill

Debate between Lord Richard and Lord Pearson of Rannoch

Wednesday 25th May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, of course I am aware of that. I also remember Henry Kissinger saying that he rather liked one telephone number to ring in Europe. I have to tell the noble Baroness that Mr Kissinger changed his mind when he read Mr Christopher Booker’s book, The Great Deception, after which he said, “Oh, at last I understand the thing”. We can come and go on that one, but time is pressing.

The British people are waking up to the truth of all this, and they do not like it. Eighty per cent want a referendum on EU membership. They want their democracy back and they will want any chance to be heard in any referendum, which touches on the huge deception that has been practised on them by their political class, which is their entrapment in the European Union. These amendments would deny them that opportunity, so I trust that the Government will not accept them.

[Lord Richard]

It is very bad for me to sit where I do, so full of good will and bonhomie. All the world is my friend and then the noble Lord behind me gets up. I am bound to say that when I listen to him I am provoked to get up and say one or two things myself.

First, I echo the words of the noble Lord, Lord Hannay. Of course the euro is not an issue in this Bill, nor is it being discussed in this Bill. We all accept that if there is a decision by the British Government to join the euro there has to be a referendum. I would have thought that the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, would approve of that rather than criticise it. His speech was a diatribe against the European Union and its development: how it operates, what it does, and so on. It is all very predictable and well known, and we have heard it often from the noble Lord, but it does not seem to have anything to do with the amendments that we are supposed to be discussing.

The issue is whether we have a sunset clause in one form or another in this Bill. With the permission of the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, I will actually discuss the amendments. Why should we have a sunset clause in this Bill? There are basically three reasons. First, however one looks at it, this is a highly controversial Bill and we have spent a long time on it. There have been clear divisions between what the noble Lord, Lord Taverne, is pleased to describe as those who have experience of Europe and those who have not. There have been clear divisions on how far the Bill should go and what it should apply to. So my first point is that the controversy surrounding the Bill is one of the issues to justify a sunset clause and reconsideration by the next Government.

Secondly, not only has it been controversial; it is distinctly novel. However one looks at the Bill, the idea that you can import into the British constitution a requirement for a mandatory referenda in 56 different cases—in a way that is perceived not to be novel but almost revolutionary, if I may say so—is, frankly, beyond me. If it were to be introduced, the British constitution would be turned upside down. If we had referenda of this type and on this scale, in these numbers, it would transform the whole parliamentary processes of our democracy. I am not in favour of transforming the processes of our parliamentary democracy. Indeed, I am on the whole in favour of keeping them.

European Union Bill

Debate between Lord Richard and Lord Pearson of Rannoch

Tuesday 26th April 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Richard]

My Lords, I can promise my noble friend one thing: if such a referendum were to take place, the turnout would be absolutely minimal. I do not understand how in those circumstances anybody could conceivably rely on that result as providing balance vis-à-vis the argument that the European Community is at the moment unpopular and deserves to become more popular.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords—

[Lord Richard]

With respect, I have given way a great deal. If the noble Lord will let me make progress, I will give way later.

Part 2 of Schedule 1 is even better. There is a whole page of it—35 lines—referring to, for example,

“police co-operation … cross-border operation by competent authorities … harmonisation of indirect taxes … broad guidelines of economic policies … conferral on European Central Bank of specific tasks … measures on working conditions”.

All these issues are there for the purpose of achieving balance, according to the two noble Lords who spoke. Is it conceivable that you can have referenda on any of these issues and properly consult the people of the United Kingdom? You cannot. To pretend that you can is, frankly, dishonest.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, I disagree with the noble Lord because I would have thought that it was perfectly possible to hold a referendum on whether we wanted a European public prosecutor’s office or an extension of its powers, and certainly on the indirect taxes that he mentioned. All these subjects are much closer to the British people’s heart than the referendum that we are about to have on the method by which we send people to Parliament, given that those people cannot do much when they get there, as the powers have been passed to Brussels. I would be perfectly happy to run a campaign against the noble Lord and I can tell him that there would be a big turnout and I would win it.

[Lord Richard]

My Lords, all I can say in answer to that—

European Union Bill

Debate between Lord Richard and Lord Pearson of Rannoch

Tuesday 22nd March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Richard]

Does the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, agree that this is a debate about the Bill and not the British press?

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, in that case I shall not reply to the noble Lord, Lord Lea. I do not know about it anyway.

This is also a debate about British public opinion—what the British public want, what the Bill supplies and what the Bill which the British public have been promised could supply. Who would have thought five years ago that a major national newspaper, the Daily Express, not owned by Mr Murdoch, I think—

Subsidiarity Assessment: Seasonal Workers (EUC Report)

Debate between Lord Richard and Lord Pearson of Rannoch

Wednesday 20th October 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Richard]

My Lords, this is the first time in 20 years that I have spoken in the gap. First, I apologise to the House for that because on the whole I think that debates should proceed in the normal and acceptable way. In my defence, I took the view that this would not be a debate that required a list, but I was wrong.

This is a very strange debate in many ways. I have views on the EU, as most Members of this House will know, and I find myself agreeing with the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, and part-agreeing with the noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch. I have to say to him that I find it very strange that he sits behind me. There is a little prickling in the middle of my back every time I know he is there.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, I am afraid the Conservatives had me for 12 years, and I understand that the Bishops are not keen to have me either.

[Lord Richard]

The place the noble Lord should be is obviously on the other side of the House.

What is to happen in this instance is very simple. When the issue came before the sub-committee, various members of the sub-committee looked at it and thought that subsidiarity applied and that it was incumbent upon the committee to say so. We could have said nothing about it, fairly reliant upon the fact that the Government were going to opt out, in which case, as far as Britain was concerned, it would be pretty academic. On the other hand, we took the view that since this was the first time that this procedure would ever be used, it was important, on an issue of principle, that we should make our views known and that therefore this novel procedure should be explored.

On the whole, the procedure—and it is process not substance that I really want to talk about—has worked. The sub-committee produced its report, it went to the main Select Committee, which approved the report, and it has now come to the House. If the House takes the view that it is invited to take, there will be a reasoned opinion of this House that will go back to the Community institutions. It is an admirable procedure. The only trouble was that we were out of time. It was no one’s fault, but it meant that when the committees were looking at this, there were about three days before the time limit ran out. The noble Lord, Lord Roper, explained at the outset that there was a choice. Either he could write a letter to the institutions in Brussels or we could get a reasoned opinion of the House and send that to Brussels. That is the view that he took, and I support it.

I again apologise for having taken up the time of the House in speaking in the gap.