Northern Ireland Protocol

Debate between Lord Reid of Cardowan and Lord True

Tuesday 28th February 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, that last remark takes me back to the memoir writers. We shall see whether the big stick played its part. As I said—I am grateful to the noble Baroness opposite for also saying this—it is absolutely right and reasonable that all parties in Northern Ireland should look very carefully at the text and the details that the Government have laid out. That is why we have sought to lay out a detailed text in co-operation with the European Union. Of course this is better than the Northern Ireland protocol. I am delighted that that is the case, and I clearly agree with what my noble friend said on that point.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

My Lords, this is an occasion for bringing the House together rather than dividing it, given the importance of this issue. For my part, I have no hesitation in congratulating the Government and all the Ministers who were involved—including those on the Front Bench—on what I think is quite a stunning success. As the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, said earlier, two successes in two days is quite a record at the moment.

I would merely make a couple of comments on the Stormont brake. The first is that it is a major step forward in negotiations with the European Union but, as I understand it, it can work only if there is an Assembly sitting, as has been said. Effectively, not to have that Assembly sitting snatches defeat from the jaws of success and allows the EU to impose anything it likes. I know that our colleagues in the DUP will be considering this, and that is one of the aspects they will wish to look at. I will say no more on that. The second point is that the brake is a sort of sudden, 100% brake—a veto —even if the Assembly is sitting. Is there not a mechanism for allowing consultation prior to a brake being used, or prior to the EU bringing in legislation? If there is the possibility of that, could we look at what mechanism we might have for discussing this?

[Lord True (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for his opening remark, from his long personal perspective of service. That is why I said I did not want to put anybody in a box on this occasion; I think time, space and consideration are extremely important.

As far as the brake is concerned, the noble Lord is of course right to say that it will need the Stormont Executive to be in place. We believe that this agreement could mark a turning point for Northern Ireland and potentially puts power back into the hands of the people of Northern Ireland, where it always should be and should have been, and a restored and functioning Executive are important. To repeat, it is now for the parties to decide how they want to move forward with that mechanism. The advantage of the brake over what we had before is that it can be applied to points of detail, provided they have a significant impact, potentially, on the people of Northern Ireland; whereas, with the protocol, it was all or nothing, throwing a lot of stuff out. Within the process of the brake, which I am sure will be carefully examined over the coming days and weeks, there are various points for discussion and scrutiny.

Dissolution and Calling of Parliament Bill

Debate between Lord Reid of Cardowan and Lord True

Report stage
Wednesday 9th February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, your Lordships are required to deal with the Bills that are sent to us by the other place, and the other place has sent us a Bill with no such provision. Members of your Lordships’ House under the chairmanship of my noble friend Lord McLoughlin on the Joint Committee, which reflected at length on these matters, did not propose such an amendment. None of those who have scrutinised the legislation formally have proposed what the noble and learned Lord has suggested.

The noble and learned Lord said that we could not return to an ancient system. There is perhaps a faint irony in advancing that argument in an unelected House with a tradition that dates back centuries. He said that we had to be 21st century. Well, we tried “21st century” in 2011 and, frankly, I rather prefer the experience of many decades in the long past which I believe served us well, and the proposition before your Lordships, supported by my party and the party opposite at the general election, was that we should do away with the failed 21st-century experiment.

We do not have to talk the talk about the problems that a Commons vote might cause. There has been a lot of speculation, to and fro, on this, but we lived it in 2017 to 2019; that Parliament refused three times to be dissolved and to meet the verdict of the people.

The repeal of the Fixed-term Parliaments Act was in our manifesto and that of the party opposite. I found it fascinating to hear the throaty roar of approval from the Benches opposite when any noble Lord, starting with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, said that we must not go back to the situation before the Act was passed. I remind the party opposite, as did my noble friend, of the Labour Party’s promise to the people:

“A Labour government will repeal the Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011, which has stifled democracy and propped up weak governments”.


They wish to maintain an essential part of that Act in the form of a Commons vote.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

Can the Minister give one example of a spokesman from this side saying that we wish to retain the Fixed-term Parliaments Act?

[Lord True (Con)]

I fear I must say to the noble Lord, who I greatly respect and admire, that I simply stated a feature of the Fixed-term Parliaments Act that the party opposite wishes to retain: that there should be a Commons veto on Dissolution. That is what I said, and that is a fact. If the party opposite votes for this amendment, it will be voting for a House of Commons veto potentially on its own Dissolution—it is written there in the book.

Elections: May 2021

Debate between Lord Reid of Cardowan and Lord True

Thursday 14th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his remarks. There are no plans to change the number of signatures required for nomination in May 2021, or to allow nominations to be accepted by email. Although returning officers may allow parts of the nominations process to be carried out online, such as the arrangement of necessary documents, final nomination papers have to be delivered in person. The Government have considered these issues with the electoral sector and Public Health England, and they are of the view that the current process can be carried out in a Covid-secure way.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I suspect that we have another definite maybe from the Prime Minister, who says “We will go ahead”. And yet, if the Government proceed with the elections in May in the normal fashion, in the midst of a pandemic, with half the electorate not yet vaccinated, unlike what the Minister said yesterday—

“the very idea that somebody would be forced to choose between their health and their vote is simply not an issue”—[Official Report, Commons, 13/1/21; col. 314.]

there will be precisely that issue. Can the Government give us a definite answer—for once—and get ahead of the curve and make a definite decision now whether they are to proceed or to put alternative arrangements in place in good time? Another late U-turn will cause great anger and great confusion.

[Lord True (Con)]

I certainly agree with the noble Lord that clarity is important. The planning assumption in the law is that we are proceeding with these elections. I take the point that he makes about people who are shielding or unable to go to the polling station. That is why, under the current considerations, we are looking at, for example, enhanced arrangements for proxy voting for those affected by Covid. We believe, in concert with those authorities involved, that it would be possible to proceed safely.

Covid-19: Devolved Administrations

Debate between Lord Reid of Cardowan and Lord True

Friday 27th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

My Lords, like many in this Chamber, I very much welcome the UK-wide discussions to help us combat Covid. It is always better when we are helping each other. In that context, how much, as a total, have the UK Government distributed in consequentials and Covid-related expenditure to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord asks a very important question. I fear I cannot answer with a specific figure, but I will write to the noble Lord and advise others on that matter. As he says, the UK Government have procured vaccines for the whole of the United Kingdom. The Joint Biosecurity Centre, part of NHS Test and Trace, is UK-wide, and the UK Government provide testing capacity to all the devolved Administrations, including operating testing sites across the United Kingdom. Mutual aid and co-operation across and between all four nations has, in our judgment, been a key part in ensuring that PPE gets to where it is needed. I will write on the figures.

Great Britain and Northern Ireland: Access for Goods

Debate between Lord Reid of Cardowan and Lord True

Thursday 12th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con)]

The noble Baroness makes an important point. The UK Government recognise, of course, the unique position of authorised traders, such as supermarkets, with stable supply chains and comprehensive oversight of warehousing and distribution, moving pre-packaged products for retail solely in Northern Ireland. We are continuing to pursue specific solutions for this trade.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

My Lords, many of us in this House and elsewhere have long believed that the Government’s claims that the Prime Minister’s deal will produce unfettered trade are, quite frankly, delusional. Now that the Government have recognised that, instead of planning to breach our international obligations, would they not do better to look at constructive alternatives? For instance, what consideration has been given to the sensible proposals put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Empey, and his parliamentary colleagues, which might just get the Government off the hook?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I remind the noble Lord that the principle of unfettered access, and its legislative underpinning, was one of the key components of the re-formation of the Northern Ireland Executive. The UK Government are seeking to fulfil an obligation, and I regret very much that your Lordships, including the noble Lord, voted against it.

Business of the House

Debate between Lord Reid of Cardowan and Lord True

Wednesday 4th September 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord True]

I am very grateful to my noble friend, particularly with her great experience in the other place. I never had the privilege of serving there, but I remember that in 1975, when I was a young researcher, the late, great Michael Foot—a remarkable parliamentarian, though not necessarily always the greatest Minister—introduced five guillotine Motions on the Floor of the House of Commons in one day. That was considered such a sensational and shocking thing to do that it was on the front pages of the newspapers, and people cried “Liberty”. And here we are, in my lifetime, as my noble friend just pointed out, we now see the House of Commons treated as the lapdog when it comes to whoever is in control, whether it is the Government—

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

My Lords, I have listened with great intent and attention to the passion of the noble Lord’s principles regarding curtailment of discussion. Is he intending to say a word about the fundamental and ultimate guillotine, which is the closure of Parliament through proroguing, which is the very reason that we have been forced into our current circumstances?

House of Lords (Hereditary Peers) (Abolition of By-Elections) Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Reid of Cardowan and Lord True

Friday 23rd March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Reid of Cardowan]

I have listened very carefully to the noble Lord, Lord True. His speech was probably the most substantial criticism so far of the Bill—which I support. Does he notice the apparent contradiction at the centre of his arguments? Up until now, the main argument against the Bill is the independence and independent authority of the hereditaries. In his closing remarks, the noble Lord made the opposite argument: the reduction in hereditaries was important because it affected the party-political balance, as the hereditaries had an overwhelming party-political role in the numbers of the Conservative Party. Does he see the apparent conflict in those two arguments?

[Lord True]

My Lords, I do not see any distinction at all, though I am always grateful for a compliment from the noble Lord, whom I esteem highly. I do not particularly follow the argument about independence. It is true that hereditary Peers come here by a different route, but I have never made that argument. As was said in a challenge to the noble Viscount, it is an objective fact. They come here through election by a political college and they take a political place. I therefore have some doubt about the argument. There are nuances in all these things.

Proposed Changes to the Standing Orders of the House of Commons

Debate between Lord Reid of Cardowan and Lord True

Tuesday 21st July 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord True]

My Lords, if it is simply a question of expediency, one can make a declaratory statement in a debate. This Motion is intended to send a message to the House of Commons and there is no question about it. The committee is invited in the Motion to report specifically on the proposals for changes in the Standing Orders of another place.

We would not care for it very much if we heard from the House of Commons that they had had a debate and were sending us some suggestions as to how we should change the internal proceedings of your Lordships’ House, or if we should be told by people from the House of Commons who might vote on a particular measure.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan]

May I ask the noble Lord to read the Motion again? It is not to inquire into the Standing Orders; it is to inquire into the constitutional implications of the change. In that sense, in what way would it be improper for this House to consider the implications for the constitution of this country?

[Lord True]

My Lords, I have the greatest respect for the noble Lord, Lord Reid, but I have read the Motion, which proposes that the committee should,

“consider and report on the constitutional implications of the Government’s … revised proposals to change the Standing Orders of the House of Commons … and that the committee should report on the proposals”,

not on the constitutional implications. It is a specific invitation to report on the Standing Orders of another place. I do not think that is wise; I do not think that we should invite the House of Commons to interfere in our affairs and our Standing Orders. We can make clear the concerns and feelings that we may have about these proposals in many other ways, but I urge your Lordships not to trench into the privilege of the Commons and to hold back. Whatever we may think, if the noble Lord, Lord Butler, were to put this Motion to a Division—I hope he will not—it would be construed as a challenge not just to the policy but to the right of the House of Commons to direct its own affairs. I do not think that would be a sensible procedure for this House.