Environment: 25-year Plan

Lord Redesdale Excerpts

Monday 29th January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Redesdale (LD)]

My Lords, I should also like to welcome this report, but with caveats. I must declare my interests as the CEO of the Energy Managers Association and of the Water Retail Company. I am a landowner and some of my tenant farms are in the Higher Level Stewardship scheme. Obviously I will not ask many questions because I will not get them answered, but it is worth making the point that we have already planted tens of thousands of trees and have undertaken many of the measures. However, without some of the subsidies that upland farms receive at the moment, they will face a very difficult future. There is a great deal of interest in exactly what support, rather than subsidy, will mean.

Many members of the Energy Managers Association are responsible for achieving the company’s targets. This morning I wrote a short article on LinkedIn, which is a great use of social media, asking which questions should be asked in this debate. So far 10,000 people have clicked on the article and I have had 50 responses. I promise that I will not ask all 50 questions; if you ask more than two or three, you might as well forget it. It was interesting to note that most of the responses from these individuals highlight the very problem that many sustainability managers have: without clear regulation or legislation and targets, it is difficult for them to make companies undertake things. Of course, many of these targets fight against each other. Some of the issues concerning recycling and waste cause difficulty when you talk about companies’ growth.

This comes down to the one question I would like to ask the Government. The document’s wording is extremely good. It is aspirational, although many of the issues are covered by present European Union regulations. Many of them are targets that we already have. If we are to have a clear and concise view—there has been discussion of a Climate Change Act-type body, which would be excellent—could the Minister say when regulation or an environmental Bill will be brought forward to achieve these aims? Without that, many of these will remain aspirations and will remain extremely difficult for those people who have to undertake implementation.

One of the points raised—it is quite good when you get a vast number of people who have read the document as part of their working lives—is that the word “renewables” is not listed at any point throughout the document. I must commend the drafting team for their drafting gymnastics; the document talks about decarbonisation of the energy system, but does not include the word “renewables”. That is rather impressive. I understand why it mentions it because it then goes into the clean growth strategy, which is covered elsewhere.

However, one of the really interesting pieces of research I have been looking at could be very helpful, and it concerns the growth of solar. The large solar farms we will need to meet our green growth strategy, rather than solar panels on people’s rooftops, are already taking tens of thousands of acres from fields, but there is a real opportunity: we have tens of thousands of acres that could be used for environmental purposes. A great deal of evidence shows that the insects that the noble Lord, Lord Oxburgh, talked about could thrive in these areas. They are of course, by their very nature, somewhat deprived of light, but there are areas around them. Nesting birds could also be encouraged. This area is growing. There is planning permission for around 10 gigawatts of solar, so we will see a great deal more of it on the horizon.

The second point is one I will come back to, which is water. We have a real problem with agriculture. As my noble friend Lady Miller pointed out, we are destroying our topsoil. Using solar farms as a way of renewing that topsoil, or not using it and ploughing it up, would be a great way to reduce the amount of drainage run-off.

Many noble Lords have talked about natural capital, but we do not understand how important it will be to look at. I had a long missive on one of the areas we are talking about, on understanding the cost of natural capital. The noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone, talked about ancient woodlands and HS2. If you take the natural capital value of that into account, you would put a tunnel underneath the Chilterns area of outstanding natural beauty and it would be cost-neutral. Often we do not take into account the fact that trees have a value because you can just cut them down—it is easy.

I deal with water on a daily basis as CEO of one of these new retail companies. Our aim is to increase water efficiency, although the market has been set up just on price, but we have been warned about a drought in the south-east that is coming this summer. We have had two dry winters. Without a great deal of rainfall, we will have a problem. This is a real issue because the Government do not take water seriously unless there is a drought or a flood. Of course, with climate change, droughts and floods are two sides of the same coin because we are seeing a major change in the rainfall pattern. If we have a drought in the south-east, we should understand exactly what will happen: the Itchen—a habitat that is unique throughout the world—will get even more abstraction. That will be an issue for the water authority in that area.

I have one point on one of the faults with the document. I take on board that there is a great deal of good will in it but if we take the document as read, the abstraction licence regime change will take place only between 2022 and 2027. Considering the damage that we are doing at the moment, that is a real issue.

I should finish with this point. The Secretary of State has mentioned red squirrels and the problems with grey squirrels. I ran a campaign, which I have talked about a great number of times. We took out 27,500 grey squirrels. If he would like information on how to kill grey squirrels, I am very happy to give it. They are natural capital; you can eat them.

Brexit: Food Prices

Lord Redesdale Excerpts

Tuesday 14th November 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Redesdale (LD)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as the owner of two hill farms: I understand the economics of hill farming. The Minister said that he was confident in British agriculture but, without subsidies, hill farming, which is already almost uneconomic, will become disastrous. Can the Minister say whether the subsidies, including the environmental subsidies through entry-level and high-level stewardships, will be confirmed to the end of this Parliament? Sorry—I had better say “by 2022”.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, the Secretary of State and the Minister have made very clear that the continuing support—I think that the word is “support” rather than “subsidies” for agriculture—will continue until the end of this Parliament in 2022. It is important that we look to new arrangements countenancing public benefits, which I believe agriculture and management of the land undoubtedly do. Obviously we are considering agri-environmental schemes, which I think will be of considerable benefit to agriculture, farmers and the environment.

Breeding: Dogs and Cats

Lord Redesdale Excerpts

Wednesday 13th September 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, it is important that we respect our animals as they are in their native state. It is important that we address this point; it is not reasonable, and in fact it is self-indulgent, to breed animals with these genetic defects. So we want to deal with it, and it is important that we do so. This crosses a number of breeds whose conditions we need to improve. This is why we are working in particular on things such as pet advertising—we want to raise standards on the online side of these things. We are working on this because we recognise how important it is for the welfare and health of these animals.

[Lord Redesdale (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister has mentioned online sales of animals. Will he take the recommendations of the Pet Advertising Advisory Group, which is chaired by the Dogs Trust, to make it obligatory—not just voluntary—for websites to make sure that the picture of the pet that is on sale is of the animal itself? Many pets are advertised with beautiful pictures of healthy animals, but when the prospective owner comes to pick up their pet they find a sickly, badly-bred animal and of course feel sorry for it and therefore pay for it, which increases the trade in this way.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, the noble Lord is absolutely right; the Pet Advertising Advisory Group is driving up standards, and we support that. However, this takes us back to one of our problems, which is that of demand from the public who want to buy a puppy. One of the most important things they should think about is whether they can go to a rehoming centre to buy a dog or cat. If they want to buy a pedigree puppy or kitten, they should look to responsible breeders and in particular see the animals in the environment of the mother. It will become illegal to buy a puppy under eight weeks old, so I hope that we will make some progress on this.

Dog Licensing

Lord Redesdale Excerpts

Tuesday 16th December 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord De Mauley]

The noble Lord raises an important point. This is why we have legislated this year to tighten up on the dangerous dogs legislation. Now is not the moment to go into detail, but he has a very important point and the new legislation goes to the particular problems that have arisen in recent years.

[Lord Redesdale (LD)]

My Lords, following on from that point, this is a time of year when the number of postal workers attacked by dogs rises quite considerably. We should not underestimate the number of hospital admissions that also take place due to dangerous dogs. Having campaigned on this issue for a number of years, I was encouraged when the Minister said that the Government were looking at further measures to link the owner to the dog through a microchip. Will he say what measures they might well bring forward to reduce the number of dog attacks?

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, we have worked with the Post Office, Royal Mail and the unions on the legislation that went through this year. Largely, they were extremely happy with what we did and are very pleased that microchipping is coming in.

Water Bill

Lord Redesdale Excerpts

Tuesday 25th March 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Northover (LD)]

My Lords, in moving government Amendment 61 I shall also speak to the other amendments in this group. I shall address Amendments 61 to 63 first. I am grateful for the support of my noble friends Lord Redesdale and Lady Parminter, who have added their names to these amendments. During scrutiny of the Water Bill we have debated the important question of how to ensure sustainable outcomes in the context of regulation of the sector. As part of that debate, we have returned repeatedly to the need to promote the efficient use of water so that all parties—Ofwat, the water companies and their customers—are encouraged to use water as efficiently as possible.

There is already a duty on undertakers to promote the efficient use of water by their customers, and Ofwat has a role in enforcing this duty. As noble Lords will know, we consider water efficiency to be an important priority. A compelling case for additional clarity on this issue has been put forward by noble Lords in Committee and in subsequent discussions. We therefore propose to make a further alteration to the resilience duty to make it absolutely clear that Ofwat is expected to promote the efficient use of water by water companies. We want to avoid any doubt on that score. This ensures that the resilience duty embraces all relevant action, such as the capture and retention of water by investing in new water storage or by tackling leakage. It will ensure that Ofwat promotes action to ensure that water is managed by the companies as efficiently as possible and encourages them to take action to encourage customers to use water efficiently. All such activity will support the overall objective of reducing pressure on water resources.

I also wish to speak to Amendments 65 to 70. I hope that it will be clear how seriously we take the crucial matter of getting the right balance between social, environmental and economic considerations in the regulation of this sector. We know that noble Lords across the House share this concern. It is with the intention of further strengthening that balance that we are bringing forward these amendments today. They require that when setting strategic priorities and objectives for Ofwat, the Secretary of State and Welsh Ministers must have regard to Ofwat’s duties and must have regard to social and environmental matters as well.

My noble friend Lady Parminter tabled a similar amendment in Committee and, supported by the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, made her case forcefully. I thank both noble Lords for rightly flagging this issue. Briefly, Clause 24 clarifies and strengthens existing guidance- giving powers. It enables the Secretary of State to issue a single consolidated statement setting out social, environmental and economic policy priorities in the round. The purpose of this is to help Ofwat weigh all of the relevant considerations appropriately when making regulatory decisions, and Welsh Ministers will have an equivalent power. We agree that the consolidated guidance must include social and environmental considerations. That is why we made it clear in the drafting of the Bill that social and environmental matters should stay. However, we share the concerns of noble Lords on the issue of the status of that guidance, and for that reason we are bringing forward an amendment to resolve the issue.

I thank noble Lords for their constructive and well informed engagement, and I hope that they will welcome these amendments. I beg to move.

[Lord Redesdale (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Government, after some considerable debate about the issue, for the alacrity with which they have taken steps to introduce water efficiency. At the previous stage I raised the issue of sustainability, and I see that the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, has tabled an amendment covering it as part of this group. However, what I am most concerned about is the issue of water efficiency.

The resilience amendment talks about demand management. In the parlance of the water industry, demand management is very much about the reduction of leaks, whereas I believe that water efficiency is much more about the use of water and how it is a partnership between the water companies and water users on how water is to be used. We still have to bring about a massive behaviour change in customer use to make sure that the biggest leak we have in any system is the tap that is not turned off or used inefficiently. That is a movement which we have to take forward.

I hope that these provisions will bring about a degree of behaviour change within Ofwat itself, as happened as a result of the changes made to its core duties in the 2003 Act. I believe that Ofwat is seeking to change the way that it looks at such a scarce resource. With climate change, we are going to have to look at a very different system of determining how much water is available and how we use it. Indeed, in a few minutes Ofwat will be holding a reception just down the road to discuss these issues with stakeholders. I am glad that the Government have brought forward these amendments, which I am sure will help the regulator in its duties.

[Baroness Parminter]

My Lords, I, too, thank the Government for listening so assiduously to the concerns that I and colleagues around the House raised in Committee. The Government have listened very carefully to those concerns, and I particularly welcome the new amendment which outlines that the resilience duty includes promoting the efficient use of water. This powerful commitment to water efficiency is testament to the tenacity of my noble friend Lord Redesdale. It also delivers the Liberal Democrat party policy agreed five years ago to reform Ofwat’s remit to put water resource efficiency at the heart of water company plans.

I also sincerely thank the Minister and the Bill team for accepting my genuinely strongly felt concerns about the necessity of the Government taking account of social and environmental matters when formulating the strategic guidance with which the regulator has to conform. Their amendment to Clause 24 reflects that and I am extremely grateful.

Water Bill

Lord Redesdale Excerpts

Monday 27th January 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Redesdale (LD)]

My Lords, along with the Minister, I have to declare an interest in that I own one bank of a river: the River Rede in Northumberland. The river, which runs through Redesdale, has a name that deals with some of the pollution problems there: in Northumbrian it means “red river”. That is probably from the iron oxide that has leached into it, but I prefer the definition given in a local history guide which says that it ran red with the blood of Scotsmen after the Redeswire massacre in the 1560s. However, that strays into another Bill that we will come on to in the not too distant future.

As a Back-Bencher I enjoy the fact that you can focus on one issue alone. This Bill is quite light on issues. I will not be focusing on many other parts of the Bill, but I would raise the issue of competition. Many noble Lords have talked about the value of competition in driving down prices and, as the Scottish example has shown, there could be short-term gains through competition. However, we should take on the lessons learnt from the energy sector that the short-term gains might turn into very long-term problems, especially with the issues of extraction.

An area that I particularly welcome in the Bill, though, is the Government pushing forward issues around the capex and opex problem and introducing the new word “totex”, which is quite an ugly expression but certainly may well help to deal with some of the fluctuations brought about by the five-year AMP cycle.

The issue that I want to focus on particularly was flagged up in the White Paper as one that the Government were going to look at under concern, but that dropped out of the draft Bill: the question of whether there should be a duty on Ofwat in sustainability. Having watched the pictures of flooding on the television this morning, and I think that everyone who has ever dealt with a flood knows just how horrendous that situation can be, I cannot believe that we do not face an issue with climate change. We were facing a drought last summer. They said, “If we don’t get a 200% normal rainfall pattern, we will have to have hosepipe bans through the whole of 2013 and 2014”. Luckily enough, we had over 200% of normal rainfall. Perhaps it is only me who thought, “Over 200% of normal rainfall is not a normal situation”. Now, of course, we have gone from drought to a flood. With climate change, drought and flood are two sides of the same coin, and we are going to face that in future.

The Minister and the Government have come forward and said, “We don’t need the word ‘sustainability’ as a duty because we’re looking at resilience”. I believe that there is a massive difference in how people view the terminology between “resilience” and “sustainability”. Sustainability is already written into the Bill—there is a clause on sustainable drainage—but not as a duty for Ofwat. Why do I believe that that is important? Because the regulator sets the terms of the tariff that we pay and therefore what the water companies can use that money for.

Unless the regulator takes looking at sustainability in the long term really seriously, we tend to end up with a much shorter-term decision-making processes. Of course, when we are talking about the long term, we are talking about only 20 years, or perhaps even less in some of the assessments. I plan to be a water customer in 20 years’ time—with my family history, I probably will not be—and it is quite possible that as a customer in 20 years’ time, I will be paying a much higher bill because of the decisions we are making now about the cost of living. When we talk about the squeezed middle classes, I understand that water bills are going to be higher. However, if we do not take those measures, the cost of water in a few years’ time will be a great deal higher.

The one issue I have is that much of what has gone in the White Paper is business as usual: “We have always had a lot of water. Water is fine. We can deal with it, and there will not be a problem”. That is not really the case. I manage a private water supply—I have a borehole—and it focuses your mind on some of the problems with water. One of the major problems with water is the cost of extraction. The cost of extracting water through a borehole is very high in energy. Of course, water companies are some of the highest users of energy in the country, so when we are talking about price sustainability, we also have to think about how much it will cost us in energy terms, and energy prices are going up quite dramatically.

We also have to think about the fact that we tend to forget that the price covers not just the extraction of water but the treatment of sewage. Dealing with a blocked septic tank on a freezing cold Sunday morning in December focused my mind on the problems of sewage on a personal level. We should realise that as much energy is used in getting clean water to us as is used in dealing with sewage and reprocessing the water.

We have to make sure that the water companies understand that sustainability is an issue. That is where I have a slight disagreement with Ofwat. Ofwat has a secondary duty of sustainability, not a primary duty. Many noble Lords have talked about the regulator’s sustainability duty, but it is secondary to economic regulation and means that sustainability has not been as important. The issue is slightly more important now because there is a real problem with which duties are undertaken by which regulatory authority. In Committee in another place, the constructive tension between the environmental regulator and the economic regulator was referred to as leading to an optimal outcome in the periodic review process. The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, indicated that that might have been the case in the past; however, the Environment Agency no longer has a policy role and, while it gives guidance, it relates to statutory duties and it no longer actively promotes an environmental agenda with water companies. At the same time, the Environment Agency has been given a duty to promote economic growth. No commensurate duties or functions have been placed on Ofwat. This means that the creative tension really no longer exists.

A resilience duty is good for resilience—and I stress that I do not underestimate the importance of a resilience duty—but it does not by default mean that it is an environmental duty. Waterwise and other green NGOs feel that there needs to be something stronger, such as a primary sustainability duty on Ofwat to ensure that issues such as water efficiency and catchment base solutions, which have been mentioned by many noble Lords, and energy management come to the fore.

An issue that often gets overlooked and was always overlooked in the energy debate is that it is no longer business as usual. We are going to have to change our habits in relation to water. We will have to start thinking about water efficiency. We are one of the highest users of water in Europe. We waste potable water—drinking water—by washing our cars with it. That water has an energy cost that has been processed and an environmental cost. We are going to have to start changing fundamentally how we look at water efficiency. A water efficiency duty placed on Ofwat would be a start to meeting that sustainability agenda. The water companies already have a water efficiency duty placed on them, but the water regulator tells them how they can spend their money. If they are to change their attitude, then we have to change the attitude of the regulator. There would be a question as to whether that should be through a primary duty on sustainability, or a primary duty of water efficiency and energy use. That argument is yet to happen, and I would very much hope that the Minister will look at it.

This issue really has to be taken seriously. We could be facing a hosepipe ban now due to the drought of 2012. We are going to see a great deal more of this flip-flop between flooding on the one hand and drought on the other. I do not think that hosepipe bans are going to be the worst of our problems. When we go back to standpipes we will have a real issue. I hope that this could be looked at. I first started having this argument with Ofwat a number of years ago. One of the problems is that nothing moves quickly in the water sector. The decisions we make now will have fundamental implications for the future of the water industry. I very much hope that the Government can look favourably upon a sustainability amendment and, if not that, upon a water efficiency duty—I understand the reliance duty incorporates issues of climate change—and an energy duty. If not, I would feel that that had to be imposed upon the Bill.

Welfare of Wild Animals in Travelling Circuses (England) Regulations 2012

Lord Redesdale Excerpts

Wednesday 24th October 2012 Grand Committee

[Lord Redesdale]

My Lords, I have not carried out the same amount of research as the noble Lord, Lord Colwyn, but I did watch “Madagascar 3” on the airplane coming back from Doha the other day. That is an interesting film as the prevailing mood is that wild animals should not be used in circuses but in that major blockbuster the zoo animals own a circus. I raise that point as it is interesting to see how trends change.

We are talking about a total of between 30 and 50 animals, with the consensus being around 39. These stopgap measures are useful as they will increase costs. Consequently, many circuses will consider whether it is economically viable to continue to keep wild animals given that the whole industry has an estimated turnover of a mere £2 million. When one considers the number of circuses in existence, that figure shows that it is not the most lucrative of professions.

My son requested me to ask the following question as we visit Zippos Circus, which comes to Hampstead Heath once a year. Last year I noticed protestors complaining about the use of horses. I was extremely impressed by the circus’s standards of animal welfare for its domesticated animals such as horses and budgerigars. I asked the Minister earlier to ensure that budgerigars are not considered to be wild animals in this context. I very much hope that he will take into account the cost of veterinary intervention. Obviously, I am against the use of wild animals in circuses but I hope that the cost of veterinary intervention for domesticated animals—that does not seem to be a massive issue at present—has been taken into account.

[Lord Knight of Weymouth]

My Lords, I welcome some movement on this issue by Defra because, like others, including the noble Lord, Lord Kirkhill, I very much agree that the use of wild animals in circuses is not appropriate. However, I am not talking about domesticated animals. I also agree that wild animals are treated cruelly in circuses. I noted the Minister’s comment right at the beginning of his speech that this measure is the first step towards introducing a ban on ethical grounds. I hope that when he winds up he will say whether the Government will stick to the commitment made by his predecessor to introduce an ethical ban in this Parliament. That would enforce the will of the other place which voted unanimously to introduce such a ban, using Section 12 of the Animal Welfare Act. The Minister’s noble friend Lady Parminter asked about Defra’s latest opinion regarding the legal position of such a ban. It would be interesting to hear the answer to that question as well.

I strongly support the principle of a ban. Some worry that bringing forward regulations that last for seven years, with a review after five years, might undermine the notion that there is any momentum behind that principle. However, I was pleased to hear the Minister say that this measure is the first step and if he can reassure us on the timeline, I would be most grateful. Clearly, we need to improve welfare standards. That is the reason why I oppose the use of wild animals in circuses. In so far as it goes there is some merit in these regulations in improving those standards. However, it is worth asking whether it would have been easier, cheaper and clearer to go for an outright ban. Those circuses that use wild animals would hear that message and a timeline set out by government and would phase them out over the intervening couple of years rather than getting used to a new set of regulations which are only temporary anyway, which may be phased out in favour of the ban on which there is all-party agreement.

Reference was made obliquely, which I wish to address head on, as to whether the enforcement mechanism in these regulations is flawed. Clearly, if we are bringing forward regulations that are not going to work and that are only temporary anyway, there is not very much point in proceeding.

I am most grateful to the RSPCA and the Born Free Foundation for forwarding me the joint briefing they have prepared and in which they go into some detail. I have copied relevant sections to the Minister so that he could have time properly to consider the argument they made. I shall summarise it. The main sanction in these regulations is to suspend the licence. If the licence is suspended, something has to happen to the animals that are then being held without a licence. Regulations state that a licence is required for any place where a wild animal associated with such a circus is kept. Therefore keeping them where the circus is is not an option unless, I guess, the circus holds an alternative licence for that location, which is extremely unlikely, given that we are talking about a travelling circus. Moving the animals is possible only if the site where the animals are held during the suspension also holds a licence. Any site that held the animals without a licence would find itself in contravention of the regulations. Given that suspensions come into effect immediately and initial granting of a licence requires prior inspection by a Defra inspector, plus the relevant fees to be paid et cetera, that clearly is not a practical solution either, unless the expectation is that the circus owner would hold an additional licence for their home site to cover this eventuality, if he is allowed to move them to that alternative site under this licensing regime, which seems a bit unlikely, given my reading of the regulations.

The only other possible option—unless the Minister tells me otherwise—is moving animals to another licensed circus during a suspension, again, if the circus is allowed to move them. However, given that we have heard from the Minister that the Secretary of State is required to have 14 days’ notice if a wild animal is introduced to any circus—I guess to add it to the stock list that the Minister referred to in his opening comments—I cannot see how that will work either. There are real questions about whether these regulations are enforceable using the sanction set out. Even if the Minister is unable to do anything else, if he can answer that question I will go away happy that I have achieved something.

There are four other points that I would like to make briefly. The first is about whether the welfare standard is good enough. I have a fundamental problem, which is one I wrestled with in my brief tenure as a Defra Minister five years ago, and I never managed to resolve it. It is that the same animal could be held under different licence regimes if it was unfortunate enough to be moved about into different settings, and each has a different standard of welfare and husbandry attached to it. Let us take the example of a small primate: a marmoset monkey would be a common one. On a Monday, the marmoset might be held in a pet shop under a pet shop licence under a particular standard of welfare and then be sold and held under a dangerous wild animal licence in someone’s home, which is a different set of standards. Then perhaps that does not work out, as keeping primates as pets often does not work out, so on the Wednesday, the animal is sold to a circus. In the circus, it is held under another set of welfare and husbandry standards. Then perhaps the circus owner finds that this marmoset is not such an attraction and is not easily forced into doing the amusing things that punters want to pay for, so on the Thursday, the animal ends up in a zoo and is under another set of welfare standards, which are the highest welfare standards.

There are those who oppose zoos altogether, and we debated that the other day. It does not seem logical or credible that, if we are starting with the principle of animal welfare in how these animals should be kept, there are four different licensing regimes, and that is before I get into the distraction of the Home Office licensing regime if they are to be used for experimentation, because that is a whole different debate that I do not think we want to get into. I would like to see the welfare standards in these regulations at the highest current licence standard, which is the standard that we have for zoos, animal parks and rescue centres. I do not think that they deliver that and there is a real question about whether the welfare standards are good enough.

My second point is around the quality of the licensing inspections and the expertise that will be deployed in Condition 6(2) of the regulations dealing with the inspectors that the circus owners themselves would use. It is notable, for example, that in a famous case in 1997 of Mary Chipperfield Promotions in Hampshire, the farm was an official MAFF quarantine facility. It carried a Dangerous Wild Animals Act licence, it was registered under the performing animals regulation and the co-owner, Roger Crawley, was at the time a government zoo inspector. It had all sorts of regulations, which should have reassured us that this was a quality establishment. Yet the evidence eventually gathered at Mary Chipperfield’s facility, including that acquired by a friend of mine, Alison Cronin, who runs a Monkey World, led to the conviction on various charges of Mary Chipperfield, her elephant keeper and Roger Crawley for cruelty to a sick elephant.

That tells me that even at the highest standard of regulation we have had problems with animal welfare. We know of other examples of premises and circuses that had been inspected where the wool has been pulled over inspectors’ eyes over the training of elephants. Local authorities have some competence in this licensing regime and I am concerned about whether they consistently have the expertise available to them to do any of the licensing.

I note what the Minister said about the regulations being enforced by Defra using vets from the existing list of veterinarians. Obviously, I have every respect for the Royal College, for its self-regulation and the standards of vets. But I would like the Minister's reassurance that vets with a vested interest in circuses are not engaged on that list. We have a fundamental problem around the level of expertise in the veterinary population in dealing with some of these species of wild animals. Not many vets are experienced in dealing with elephants, lions, some of the other wild cats and the primates that may be kept in circuses. If any of those few are making a living out of working for circuses, there is a conflict of interest and I want some reassurance that those conflicted vets would not be engaged on the list.

My penultimate point is about travel time. I note that in Condition 10 of the regulations no maximum travel time has been listed. I recall a debate we had towards the end of the summer before the Recess about the transportation of horses. There was widespread concern across your Lordships' House about travel time for horses. Noble Lords probably share the same concern about travel time for wild animals and yet no maximum limit has been set. Why not?

Finally, there is the issue of new species and the ability in these regulations for circus operators to submit new species to Defra for inclusion in the stock list. Given that these regulations are temporary, I find a facility to include new species odd because it undermines the notion that a ban is coming pretty soon in this Parliament—if the previous promises are to be kept. But if there are good reasons for including new species, we should shift the presumption from Defra having to produce individual standards for those new species to the circus operators themselves having to provide evidence that any animals that they are adding to the stock list will not suffer. That would be more manageable for Defra and we would then have the presumption the right way round.

I am sorry to have spoken a lot longer than anyone else although I guess that that is sometimes my role in this place. Beyond the principle, I am most concerned about the enforcement mechanism. But if the Minister could also give me some answers about the welfare standards, the quality of the inspection, travel time and the arrangements for new species, I would be most grateful.

Food: Waste

Lord Redesdale Excerpts

Monday 12th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

We are working through a voluntary deal in the Courtauld agreement. It has had some success, as I have just revealed with the figures on the reduction of food waste. Much of that is down to the work that WRAP has done in co-operation with the grocery retail trade and food manufacturing sector. My noble friend is right that more needs to be done to meet our new target for reducing waste in the supply chain. We are developing Courtauld 2 to achieve that objective.

[Lord Redesdale]

My Lords, are the Government making it a priority to return the nutrients and phosphates from food waste back on to the land through anaerobic digestion? I declare an interest as chairman of the Anaerobic Digestion and Biogas Association. Also, are the Government taking into account the financial savings that are being made for council tax payers through using anaerobic digestion and segregating waste on the doorstep? This has been undertaken in Wales and has shown that it costs councils a great deal less than putting it into landfill.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I thank my noble friend. Anaerobic digestion can divert food waste from landfill. It generates some renewable energy and improved nutrient management on farms, as he said. The biogas can generate heat and energy or be injected into the gas grid. The Government published an AD strategy and action plan in June that includes actions to develop a £10 million loan fund to support that new capacity. However, the strategy must be to avoid food waste in the first place, hence the Government’s focus on the Courtauld agreement. I note what my noble friend said about the Welsh experiment. We are learning a lot from projects undertaken in the devolved authorities. We will certainly monitor them carefully and take that on board.

Dog Control Bill [HL]

Lord Redesdale Excerpts

Wednesday 26th October 2011 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Redesdale]

That the Bill do now pass.

[Lord Grantchester]

My Lords, before we pass the noble Lord’s Bill to the other place, I am reminded that the Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Henley, on Report in June stated that he might have some more to say at Third Reading. Seeing the new Minister in his place, perhaps I may ask him if he would like to say a few words more.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Taylor of Holbeach)]

My Lords, I think the House knows that it is not customary for the House to debate the resolution that the Bill do now pass. Given my noble friend Lord Henley’s commitment to say something at Third Reading, I will briefly update the House.

I hope that I can reassure all noble Lords that I understand their concerns about dog control. However, the Government cannot support this Bill. My noble friend Lord Henley had been working on a comprehensive package of measures to deal with dangerous dogs and irresponsible dog ownership. I continue to carry on his good work, including meetings with key stakeholders, and I hope to announce this package shortly.

[Lord Redesdale]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that response. This is not the first time that I have brought this Bill before Parliament. Obviously, I brought it while the Opposition were the Government and I did not get a great deal of satisfaction at that point. I thank the Minister for his reply. Perhaps I may also thank the very large number of people who are incredibly committed to making sure that we have a safer environment, including those people working with the dog-owning community, police officers and, especially, organisations such as the Battersea Dogs & Cats Home which have to deal with this growing problem. I very much hope that, in going to the House of Commons, this Bill will get a fair wind. I beg to move.

Bill passed and sent to the Commons.

Dog Control Bill [HL]

Lord Redesdale Excerpts

Friday 10th June 2011 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Redesdale]

1: Clause 3, page 3, line 4,
leave out “is to” and insert “must”

[Lord Redesdale]

My Lords, in speaking to Amendment 1, I wish to raise a couple of issues about how we have tried to deal with some of the questions raised at earlier stages of this Private Member’s Bill. Obviously, Private Members’ Bills rarely become law, but they provide a fabulous test bed to make sure that the wording and sentiment of the proposal are correct so that, hopefully, when the Government come to their senses and decide that this is one of the most worthy pieces of legislation to be placed before them, they will immediately grab it with both hands and at a later stage bring forward a Bill reflecting almost every aspect of this Bill. I would like to address some of the concerns highlighted at Committee stage in March surrounding the issues of how and by whom it is decided what “dangerously out of control” constitutes within the Bill, as raised by the noble Lords, Lord Skelmersdale and Lord Pearson of Rannoch. One of the reasons for doing this is that I have had a large number of letters on this matter, so I thought it as well to deal with the issue by way of formulating the amendments that have been put forward.

The Bill’s intention is not to see responsible dog handlers and owners penalised but to deal with those owners who give others a bad name so that we can better protect the public by dealing with potentially dangerous dogs at the first signs of a behaviour problem. It is important to note that dogs are protected from the overzealous officer by writing into the Bill specific circumstances when a dog can be excused for being aggressive. A dog that bites a burglar or a mugger does not commit an offence, as the burglar or mugger is in the wrong. Equally, police and service dogs are protected. If the dog is attacked by a person and bites, no offence is committed. I believe that these rules achieve a sensible balance between protecting the public from unwarranted dog attacks and allowing dogs to behave normally. The Bill expects that the enforcers of this legislation will have adequate competency in dealing with dog-related issues to distinguish between a true act of aggression and normal acceptable canine behaviour. The Control of Dogs (Scotland) Act 2010, which has been in force since February, has not led to an influx of barking dogs being brought before court or issued with dog control notices. It is important to keep in mind that the final decision on whether a dog is dangerously out of control must lie with the court on the evidence presented to it.

I will address the specific concerns raised by the noble Lord, Lord Richard, at the previous stage of the Bill. He sought clarification on why the words “aggressive or” were removed from Clause 2(1)(a) while the same words were left in Clause 2(1)(b), and he wanted to know whether this was intentional. The decision to retain “aggressive or” within Clause 2(1)(b) was intentional, as it refers to the person who is responsible for encouraging a dog to be aggressive. Clause 2(1)(a), however, simply refers to allowing a dog to be aggressive, which I conceded at Second Reading could be open to abuse or misinterpretation. The noble Lord, Lord Richard, is immediately looking straight through the Bill with his usual “dogged” determination—

[Noble Lords]

Oh.

[Lord Redesdale]

My Lords, that is nothing compared to the jibes which I have had from these benches over the course of this Bill, so I thought I would poke a little fun back.

Obviously, this is a very difficult question to deal with, because it raises so many issues. Many dog owners feel that this has raised a number of issues which will put them at risk and, therefore, I was using this opportunity to put the record straight and maybe to stem some of the flow of letters that I will probably receive after this stage.

Amendment 1 would delete “is to” and insert “must” in Clause 3(6). It deals with and acknowledges the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Richard, in Committee in relation to the terminology,

“the appropriate national authority, local authority or police authority is to satisfy itself”.

The recommendation is that this wording be changed. I hope that this addresses the issue. I beg to move.

Amendment 1 agreed.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Lord Redesdale]

2: Schedule, page 10, line 37, leave out “Secretary of State” and insert “appropriate national authority”

[Lord Redesdale]

My Lords, I was slightly taken aback by that exciting debate. I realise that I am obviously winning the argument this morning.

Amendment 2 deals with the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, during the previous debate and rectifies a drafting error within paragraph 3(3) of the Schedule. As the Bill covers both England and Wales, “Secretary of State” has been removed and “appropriate national authority” has been included in its place. I do not intend to speak a great deal on this issue, but it does show the value of being able to use the knowledge of this House to scrutinise and pick out issues that are difficult to spot for those putting forward Private Members’ Bills. I thank all those, especially those from the dangerous dogs study group, who have taken part in helping with the amendments.

I very much hope that, at the next stage of the Bill, we will receive some indication from the Government that their position may change and move forward, especially considering the results of the consultation, to which 4,500 have replied.

On that basis, I beg to move.

[Lord Richard]

As the noble Lord was kind enough to refer to me, perhaps I may briefly respond. I have to say that I do not think that this is a very well-drafted, apposite or timely Bill, but on the other hand I think that the thrust of it is good. What the noble Lord is trying to achieve on the whole might be a desirable thing. However, the one thing he will not be able to do is legislate in this way by means of a Private Member’s Bill. He has done a service to the House in exposing both sides of the argument, and it is now for the Government to decide whether they wish to pick up this issue and deal with it. As far as I am concerned, it is an issue that the Government ought to deal with. I know that we are considering a specific Private Member’s Bill—as your Lordships may have gathered, I am not too keen on the actual Bill itself—but, nevertheless, it does seem to me an issue that the Government ought to take seriously and look at.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Henley]

Depending on when Third Reading happens, that in the course of the debate on whether the Bill do now pass, I might be in a position to say something. That depends very much on when my noble friend seeks the Third Reading of the Bill. I make no guarantees, and the noble Lord will well know that “in due course” can be a rather flexible form of time, and he will just have to wait and see.

[Lord Redesdale]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Richard, for coming in and eliciting a response from the Government. I also thank the Minister for the fulsome proposal that the Government will bring forward such useful information at the point of Third Reading. On that basis, I will wait probably until after the summer for Third Reading, although I realise that “after summer” means September rather than, in the Government’s parlance, somewhere nearer March. However, on that basis, I hope that this amendment will be acceptable.

Amendment 2 agreed.