Missile Incident in Poland

Lord Purvis of Tweed Excerpts

Thursday 17th November 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, the loss of life in Poland is a brutal reminder of the tragic consequences that Putin’s illegal invasion of Ukraine is having. I am sure the whole House will wish to express condolences to the families of those killed. As NATO’s Secretary-General said yesterday, and as the Statement reflected:

“Russia bears the ultimate responsibility as it continues its illegal war against Ukraine.”


The Government of Poland, along with NATO, should be praised for their level-headed response. We should also recognise the risk of miscalculation that results from this war. Is the Minister able to give a further update on the NATO meeting yesterday to discuss its reaction to the incident? Can he also confirm that we are, either directly or through NATO, giving maximum support to the investigation to establish the full facts?

This week has seen the largest barrage of missiles against Ukraine since the war began, with a completely unjustified focus on civilian infrastructure, which we all know will have consequences for innocent people, families and children as the winter approaches. We must continue to offer our full solidarity with the people of Ukraine, and of course the Opposition are absolutely at one with the Government in our support for Ukraine. I hope, however, that the Minister can tell us that, in expressing our solidarity, we are also exploring new ways of bolstering Ukraine’s defences. In particular, can he tell us what further steps we are now taking to strengthen its air defence capacity?

In terms of maintaining global unity in support of Ukraine, I assume that the Prime Minister’s Statement on the G20 will cover a major part of this, but can the Minister tell us more specifically what we have been doing with the EU to ensure that we maintain absolute unity in the fight against Putin’s illegal war?

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, I also associate these Benches with the condolences offered by the noble Lord, Lord Collins, to those affected by this. We agree with the NATO Secretary-General when he said that

“this is not Ukraine’s fault”

because the cause is Russia, which “bears the ultimate responsibility”. Putin will of course seek division, and therefore it is important that the UK and our allies are together with President Zelensky in supporting the Polish Government and investigating the direct cause of this.

It is to be welcomed that the UK and our allies at the G20 conference reacted in a sensible and cautious way. I support the work of the Government on this. The Foreign Secretary said in the Statement that

“the UK stands ready to provide any practical or technical assistance”

to the Polish Government. Can the Minister say whether the Polish Government has asked for that from the UK and whether that is to be provided? We offer great resources when it comes to investigative capacity, and our intelligence networks are of course second to none. I hope that they are fully open to the Polish authorities.

The Government have said that the UK has provided

“more than 1,000 surface-to-air missiles thus far”

to Ukraine. We have supported the deployment of UK assets provided to Ukraine. Can the Minister give an estimate of how many of those have so far been used and whether UK support with regard to missile capability needs to be replenished? The Minister knows well enough from questions in previous debates that we have sought clarity as to UK stocks of supplies, not only for supporting Ukraine but for our own defensive capabilities. It would be helpful to know what level of resources that we have made available has been used.

Can the UK now work with our allies to move into a new phase of tackling what could well be apparent impunity? The random bombardment of cities with missiles from the Putin regime is fully grotesque. There is no question in my mind that this is now absolutely a clear crime of aggression, in addition to the crimes against humanity that we have already discussed. Can the Minister update the House with regard to the UK policy on the crime of aggression? The UK has not ratified the amendments to the Rome Statute made in Kampala in 2010. We have not been as clear as I believe we should be in support of those who have called for a hybrid chamber on the crime of aggression of the UN and Ukraine, so that we can see movement on reducing the prospect of impunity for the Putin regime. Is this not now the appropriate time to review the UK’s position on the failure to ratify the amendments to the Rome Statute on the crime of aggression? The UK should be seen as a facilitator in moving to establish a chamber where we can see some of the crimes that have so clearly committed by the Putin regime put to the judicial process, so that there can be punishments for the crimes that are so obviously taking place.

[The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, I first thank the noble Lords, Lord Collins and Lord Purvis, for their strong support of the Government’s position. I align myself totally with the condolences extended to those impacted by the tragic deaths in Poland, which I am sure reflect the view of the whole House. Let us not forgot that this is a direct action caused by Mr Putin. There were 80-plus missile attacks across Ukraine in a blanket manner. We are of course working with the Ukrainian Government, and again I am thankful to both the Front Benches and their respective parties across both Houses for their strong support for the position that the Government have taken in support of Ukraine, and indeed in our strong alliances with our key partners through NATO, the European Union and with other countries as well.

The noble Lord, Lord Collins, raised the importance of co-ordination with NATO. As he may be aware, my right honourable friend the Prime Minister conducted, first and foremost, a direct call with the Polish President, showing absolute solidarity with President Duda. My right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary spoke to the Foreign Minister of Poland and the Prime Minister also spoke immediately to President Zelensky. Indeed, we co-ordinated some of these calls at the G20 with other key allies. As for the response, there was co-ordination with the EU through various partnerships, including the convening of a meeting of the G7 by President Biden, which the Prime Minister and the President of the European Commission attended. This underlines the strong unity of purpose and action across the piece among all allies in support of Ukraine, and of course standing in solidarity with a fellow NATO member, Poland.

The noble Lord, Lord Collins, asked about our co-ordination and support of air defences. As the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, said, we have provided support, and I assure both noble Lords that we work in a co-ordinated fashion with our NATO partners to ensure that the munitions and equipment required by Ukraine and other NATO allies are kept constantly under review in the current crisis. There was an emergency meeting of NATO ambassadors that the United Kingdom Permanent Representative to NATO also attended, which covered many of these issues around exact requirements and the response from Poland, but also, importantly, how we as the NATO alliance should react to the situation that arose.

It was quite notable—as I am sure all noble Lords would acknowledge—the restraint that was shown, including in public statements. I remember sitting in your Lordships’ House as this issue unravelled and, as I left, I sought an immediate update. With the continuing war and Russia’s indiscriminate bombing in Ukraine, it was, frankly, deeply concerning to see that this situation had crossed the border. I have been to the border and seen some of the air defences of the Polish Government. Again, I reassure both noble Lords that we are fully aligned and co-ordinate through NATO on the level of support required, not just the direct support that we are providing to the Ukrainian authorities, which we have listed many times, but how we can co-ordinate our best response as the NATO alliance.

On technical support to Poland, I assure the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, that those conversations have happened; he can take it as read that we are offering whatever support Poland needs. Poland has played a phenomenal role in the situation in Ukraine, as I and other noble Lords who have visited the region have witnessed, through the support it has provided for those fleeing the conflict in Ukraine, including support within Poland. We talked the other day about victims of sexual violence in conflict, and there are victims of sexual violence in this conflict. Again, we are working very closely with the Polish authorities to ensure that the correct information is provided to those seeking action on such crimes.

The noble Lord, Lord Purvis, talked about atrocity crimes and co-ordinating our response. I assure him that we have had detailed discussions, including with the ICC prosecutor. As he will be aware, we have set up a specific group with our key partners to look at atrocities on the ground in Ukraine. He asked about co-ordination with the EU. That group works specifically with the EU and the United States, and we will continue to work in a co-ordinated fashion to ensure that the perpetrators of crimes in Ukraine are brought to justice quickly. We need to learn from conflicts past. The mechanics, the structures and the systems being set up in Ukraine will allow prosecutions to take place effectively and in an expeditious manner. It is particularly important that we ensure that testimonies are collated. We are working on that front specifically, and I will welcome all noble Lords attending the conference at the end of the month, where we can have a specific focus on how we can further strengthen our response through testimonies, particularly those from survivors of sexual violence, to ensure that crimes inflicted can be documented appropriately. We are working with key groups such as Nadia’s Initiative to ensure that survivors are at the forefront of our mind.

I thank both noble Lords for their support. I assure them that we are co-ordinating with our G7 partners. It was interesting that this took place during the G20; it perhaps allowed other countries within the G20 who have not been as focused and strong in their support for Ukraine to reflect very carefully on what this conflict means, for not just Ukraine or Europe but the world as a whole.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I will not speculate on the triggers of Article 5. The Polish Government followed the protocols very specifically; they reflected on the Article 4 elements of ensuring that consultation took place immediately with NATO members, which was the right approach as facts were being established. The noble Lord rightly raises the threat and challenge posed by cyberwarfare. I do not recall if he was in the House yesterday when we discussed the situation in Georgia—the continued occupation of the breakaway republics and the Russian influence in Abkhazia and South Ossetia—but one of the areas of support we are providing to the Georgian authorities is in exactly that space. The United Kingdom is among the leaders on cyber, in both dealing with cyber threat and cyber defences. I assure him that we are focused on all these fronts in our response to, and support of, not just Ukraine but other countries directly impacted by Russian aggression.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister did not reply to my question about the failure of the UK to ratify the Kampala amendments to the Rome statute on the crime of aggression, which means that we are unable to promote the UN General Assembly and Ukraine in setting up a hybrid chamber to prosecute Putin for the crime of aggression. Can he respond to that?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I am aware of Ukraine’s request on this. It has approached us directly but we have reservations, not least about how the structures would work. I answered the question at least partially in saying that we have dealt with these issues directly with the International Criminal Court, which is working on the ground. We want accountability and justice for the perpetrators of crimes and are looking to work through the practical solutions that can best bring that about as quickly as possible.

Human Rights: India

Lord Purvis of Tweed Excerpts

Thursday 17th November 2022 Grand Committee

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Collins, and I, along with the Minister of course, have been discussing human rights within Europe, including Ukraine. Later, we will do so on China and, in the context of the debate that my noble friend has brought to us today, it is right that we discuss human rights relations with our close partner, India. In debating all three areas, we understand the complexities that exist, as well as the power of history. But that should not blind us to what the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, and the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, indicated or allow us to ignore what our contemporary relations are within our key trading relationships. I will come back to that before I close.

India is a much-valued ally of the UK, with enormously deep historical and contemporary ties in all parts of the UK—every single corner of our country. Our long-term future in the world as the UK is linked with the ongoing development of India itself in the global economy, in development support, in research and development and in education and skills. There is no part of the UK’s future on which India will not have an influence. Of course, that includes democratic development and the ever-advancing universality of human rights and freedoms, but it does not mean that we are silent within this partnership on those areas that have been brought to our attention today.

We strive continuously to share common values and I agree strongly with the noble Lord, Lord Hussain, about their universal nature. I also share the view of the noble Baroness, Lady Verma, who indicated that when it comes to LGBTQI+ and women’s rights, we should have common threads in our relationships with all partners. In that regard, for example, it has been regrettable that India has resumed executions and the death penalty over recent years. There are areas where we will signal that the UK has a different approach but we want to work with our allies and friends in development, not least in sharing areas of common values, such as openness, tolerance and, of course, human rights. The concerns raised today are therefore relevant in the current climate.

I will refer, as I have repeatedly in debates on human rights, to the Government’s Human Rights and Democracy Report. I commend officials in the FCO and FCDO who have put those reports together over recent years. The examples that I will relate are drawn from that FCDO report, and there is no question about the areas highlighted in it. I put on record at this point my support for the Minister’s work as Minister for Human Rights—he has taken responsibility in this region—and the work that he has done to advance the human rights agenda of the United Kingdom. But, as the Government themselves have indicated and reported, some of the areas where we see a trend in the wrong direction have resulted from the Covid crisis and the more repressive nature of some of the lockdowns that existed. The Government were right, in my view, to highlight some of those.

In the wider trading relationship, the Government have highlighted some of the challenges that exist on the lack of respect for ILO or labour rights in areas such as trafficking and garment production, as well as the lack of implementation of some international obligations on modern slavery and forced labour. I absolutely recognise that this is not unique to India and that therefore our work in those areas has been with regional partners in Pakistan and Bangladesh. However, the Government also highlighted some concerning areas with regard to the restriction on those who have highlighted human rights concerns, including the restrictions on Amnesty International and its categorisation under domestic legislation within India. There are also areas where NGOs have struggled to highlight some of their concerns.

Let me address the point that I referenced earlier with regard to our trade relations. The Committee will not be surprised to know that I hold the UK’s trading relations with India on a par with all other areas where I, along with the noble Lord, Lord Collins, and others—indeed, the whole House—have resolved that the Government should have a trade and human rights policy, which should be reflected in all our agreements.

When we debated the prospective UK-India free trade agreement, we raised human rights concerns, the lack of stakeholder consultation, the lack of a full review by the Government of human rights and trade, and the lack of clarity over whether the Government are seeking triggering mechanisms in chapters on human rights within the prospective trade agreement with India. It is fair to ask the Government for there to be more clarity in this area—on how a trade agreement with India could advance areas such as core UN and ILO human rights conventions, and how we will work with India on moving towards full ratification of the convention against torture, to which it is a signatory. When it comes to investment and trading relations, this should be seen as a positive, but human rights should be an integral part of it, not a secondary element.

Human Rights: China

Lord Purvis of Tweed Excerpts

Thursday 17th November 2022 Grand Committee

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Rogan. I will touch on Taiwan in a moment, and I commend the work he does in the British-Taiwanese All-Party Parliamentary Group, of which I am a proud member. The noble Lord sought to give us a little detour away from Beijing, to Belfast. I admire him for squeezing that in. After four long days in Committee on the Northern Ireland Protocol Bill, the Minister will be relieved that I am not asking him about this—although I did ask on a number of occasions what the Prime Minister’s views on the Northern Ireland protocol were.

The right reverend Prelate is to be commended on bringing this debate. He should not have had any reluctance or reticence to bring it to the Grand Committee, because it is of profound importance for the future of our country. As the noble Lord, Lord Alton, indicated, on 20 October we debated in Grand Committee the International Relations and Defence Committee’s report on China. The noble Lord, Lord Alton, is an esteemed member of that committee, on which I served, and he was absolutely right to say that we were challenging the void in the Government’s strategy on China. Indeed, the terminology in the committee report highlighted a void.

When it comes to the serious issue of Taiwan, of significance are not simply the UK’s foreign relations with Taiwan but the UK’s strategic interests with Taiwan as a major trading partner. We are reliant on technological imports from Taiwan. It is also a significant export partner for some of our key export sectors. Therefore, the consequences of what will happen in the relationship between the PRC and Taiwan are of direct UK interest.

Not only that—there is also a soft power interest. I have been to Taiwan on a number of occasions. On one of my visits, I was there with our former colleague, my noble friend Lord Steel, and we met with President Tsai Ing-wen. She said that it was Lord Steel, as leader of the Liberal Party, who inspired her to be involved in politics in Taiwan; she was studying at LSE at the time. The fact that Taiwan and the UK both have strong, deep views on the principles of democracy and rights is of great importance. Therefore, it is an appropriate prism through which to look at UK relations with China, human rights and China’s increasingly aggressive posture.

I join the right reverend Prelate in saying that the relations between the people of the UK and the people of China are of deep and significant importance. You cannot go to a campus, speak to a business or go to a high street and not see that depth of relationship. But of course, as in our previous debate on our relations with India, that does not mean we should be blind to some of the serious challenges that exist.

In the context of having reviewed the Government’s integrated review and the Minister’s response to the Select Committee, I read the US Department of Defense’s recently published national defence strategy. It now refers to the PRC by highlighting its

“increasingly provocative rhetoric and coercive activity towards Taiwan”

along with the risk of destabilisation, risk miscalculation and threats to peace and stability. It also mentions China’s other abilities, including using cyber and digital technology. The US now considers the PRC as

“the pacing challenge for the Department”.

However the noble Lord, Lord Alton, is right that at the same time the UK’s posture is confusing, to say the least. In the debate in the committee, I asked about the status of the China strategy because the Government had said that it was held by the National Security Council. That council was then abolished; now it has apparently been recreated under the Prime Minister. It is interesting that the Government say they have recreated the National Security Council but the noble Lord, Lord Goldsmith, told me that it had not been abolished in the first place. That is a microcosm of the lack of clarity about where we are.

The seriousness of this is that in many of our key sectors, as highlighted by the director-general of MI5, and by me in many of our debates on trade policy and elsewhere, we in the UK are overreliant on imports from China. That dependency is a worry. This is in the absence of a strategic industrial strategy for the UK which would look at digital, ecommerce, privacy, intellectual property and supply chain resilience, as well as some of our key areas. One area we raised in the past is wafer technology. When the Government refused to call in a purchase, we were told repeatedly that there were no concerns. Then after parliamentary pressure, I think, the Government did call it in and the news this week is broadly welcome. That highlights how it does not seem as though BEIS, the Treasury and the FCDO are working in complete alignment.

Last year, I raised the fact that we had the biggest trade deficit on goods imports for any country in our nation’s history. It was more than £40.5 billion. That has declined slightly but by only £2 billion, so we now have a trade deficit with China of £39 billion on imports, which means that we need an industrial strategy and a resilience review across the key sectors. It also means that we should be looking at screening investments by UK firms in some of those key sectors in China. The recent reports that the German Government are operating this should be an indication that we need to do the same. I say this because the latest trade figures with China, published on 2 November, highlight a 20% increase in UK investment in China and Chinese enterprises, including state-owned enterprises. I simply do not know what the Government’s strategy is when we hear from the noble Lord, Lord Alton, what the new Prime Minister had said; now that is represented in the growth of investments in these enterprises.

The final thing I raise regarding Hong Kong and the UK is that the Government have not moved fast or far enough in reviewing what property assets party leaders and state-owned enterprises in Hong Kong have in London and the UK, which individuals have them, how transparent that is and how much they have invested in UK investment funds. I have repeatedly questioned whether any of the agreements signed by David Cameron and President Xi in 2015 have been reviewed, because they offer increased UK market access to Chinese enterprises, including investment in UK pension funds. I do not know whether state-owned enterprises, party leaders or those who have been either directly linked with or complicit in human rights abuses in China are increasing their purchases of British pension funds. Local authorities, individuals and investors need to know. It is the Government’s responsibility to tell us. We need a China strategy as well as resilience, because we cannot simply bemoan human rights abuses in China if we are silent at home.

Russia in Georgia

Lord Purvis of Tweed Excerpts

Wednesday 16th November 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord knows that I agree with him totally, not just in the context of support for civil society in Georgia but generally. Civil society is core to any progressive, inclusive, functioning democracy. We are providing support in Georgia; for example, through a range of projects focused primarily on confidence-building dialogue, funded by CSF funding. That also helps Georgia take forward public administration reform, parliamentary capacity building and good governance, and includes some of the work we are doing with civil society. On the specific groups we are working with and direct engagement, if I may, I will write to the noble Lord.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

Georgia has reported that there will actually be some economic growth in its economy because of the influx of over 112,000 young professionals who have fled Russia. In June, the European Union gave Georgia pre-application status to move towards membership of the single market and customs union, alongside Ukraine and Moldova. Will any of the technical support that the UK is providing to Georgia enable it to move closer to the European Union economic markets?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

How Georgia chooses to move forward with the EU is very much a matter for Georgia. However, I can say that we are working very closely with our European colleagues on, first and foremost, the monitoring done within Georgia, particularly vis-à-vis the breakaway republics. Our ODA funding has also grown and that is helping Georgia take forward certain reforms that I have already alluded to. Specific UK funding is also helping it to build its cyberdefences, which, in the current climate, is extremely important.

Tigray Province: Ceasefire Agreement

Lord Purvis of Tweed Excerpts

Tuesday 15th November 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, it is a real privilege to follow the noble Lord, Lord Boateng, and his words of caution from history should be listened to very carefully. I join him and others in commending the noble Lord, Lord Browne, for securing this exceptionally timely debate. While the speakers’ list is fairly short, the powerful and direct experience of those who have taken part is really impressive.

I declare that I have been on the Sudanese-Ethiopian border. Indeed, on a visit to the museum in Khartoum, I saw for myself how, for centuries, communities had lived together in harmony and in tolerance, and that it was not inevitable that there would be a crisis in this area. I also join the noble Lord, Lord Boateng, in recognising that there has been more quiet diplomatic work from the UN, USA and EU envoys, who have perhaps been more successful in securing this cessation, which I hope is sustainable. This is in addition, of course, to the work being done by the good offices of the Pretoria Government and President Ruto of Kenya. However, as the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, indicated, there has been deep history, deep division and deep wounds for many years in relations between the TPLF and the Ethiopian Government—as well as, as the noble Lord, Lord Alton, indicated, continuing concerns with Eritrea, which I will touch on in a moment.

The people across Ethiopia are suffering from conflict in the north and drought in the south, and this is compounding the situation of the economic crisis. As the noble Lord, Lord Browne, indicated, I would be grateful if the Minister could outline His Majesty’s Government’s view of the withholding of IMF support. There is concern that the rapid rise in fuel and food prices across the country is compounding the issue, so I would be grateful to know the Government’s position on the IMF situation.

Even as recently as the resumption of hostilities in August, there was an extra displacement of 574,000 people across Afar, Amhara and Tigray, and there was little assistance in funding available to them. As the noble Lords, Lord Alton and Lord Browne, indicated, there are concerns from the UN-appointed International Commission of Human Rights Experts on Ethiopia about extrajudicial killings, rape, sexual violence and the starvation of the civilian population as a method of warfare.

Using starvation as a weapon of war is really grotesque. This has left 13 million people in need of support due to the conflict in the north of Ethiopia, and more than 20 million people in Ethiopia are estimated to be food insecure, with 25,500 severely malnourished children in the region today. However, there are warning signals from the UN that its humanitarian appeal for Ethiopia is currently only 47% funded, thereby hampering those agencies that want to respond to these pressures. As the noble Lord, Lord Browne, indicated, there was perhaps better news this morning, with Ethiopia lifting all restrictions for humanitarian access to Tigray. However, as the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, indicated, those support areas are only a tiny element of what is needed.

I will return, before I close, with specific questions on UK support, but in the first instance I will ask the Minister a number of questions on the 2 November and 12 November agreements. My understanding is that, as part of the agreements, there is an agreement that there will be disarmament of heavy weaponry within a number of weeks and small arms within a month. That is an incredibly ambitious target, especially since there is concern regarding the lack of clarity on the movement of Eritrean forces. It seems to be difficult to see a simultaneous process of disarmament within a month while there has not been the guarantee that Eritrean forces and Amhara forces will also leave. I would be grateful to know what the Government’s estimate is on that element of the agreement for disarmament.

That leads on to the very pertinent point about monitoring. What role will the UK play? The noble Lord, Lord Browne, gave some very practical suggestions as to how we could support the monitoring and verification, but is the UK intending to play a role with regards to Eritrean forces, as well as the disarmament by TPLF forces?

Secondly, one of the potential positive areas is the work that I hope will now be under way for an interim Administration in Tigray. Will the Government be planning to play a role in support of that? It seems to have been peace secured on the battlefield, but it will not be sustainable unless there is proper administrative and governance support. I share the view of the noble Lord, Lord Alton, and the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, that with the lack of clarity on transitional justice, at the same time as there is intended to be an interim Administration and sustainable governance, it is hard to see how it will be genuinely sustainable for the people. I would be grateful if the Government intended to play a role in providing direct support in this area.

That leads me on to seeking clarity from the Government with regard to assistance. The UK has said that it has spent £90 million on life-saving aid across Ethiopia in the past 18 months, but it is possible that £86 million of that has already been committed, which means that only £4 million is actually there for humanitarian funding in the current crisis. In September, the UK said that it had allocated £6 million in humanitarian aid from the crisis reserve fund for Tigray and Ethiopia, but I understand that it has not yet been spent. If the Minister could clarify that point, I would be grateful.

The Government have also indicated that they have provided £4 million to address sexual violence in Ethiopia, but it is not clear whether that is part of what has already been committed or whether it is new funding. In June, the UK said that it would provide aid for 200,000 children and pregnant women in the southern and eastern regions, but again I have not yet been able to identify clarity as to whether that has so far been delivered. Also in June, the UK said that it had funded the productive safety net programme, benefiting 8 million people via financial welfare provision, but I have not been able to identify which funding stream it is from.

Obviously, some of these issues are technical ones, on which the Minister will not be able to respond this evening, but I shall be grateful if he can write to me setting out the exact figures on how much humanitarian development, as well as women and girls and climate financing, has been provided in this financial year and under which funding streams—specifically, from the crisis reserve fund. The noble Lord, Lord Boateng, is absolutely right: the UK has a role to play, but it is about resources as well as our diplomatic work. If the Minister could provide clarity on that, he would be doing the people a service. I shall be grateful if he could write to me with regard to those issues.

Iran: Women Protesters

Lord Purvis of Tweed Excerpts

Wednesday 9th November 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, first, I pay tribute to my noble friend’s work in this regard. On his first question, on the IRGC, of course it is a despicable organisation and we have continued to see that that is the case. Of course, I know the strength of feeling in your Lordships’ House and, as I cannot speak specifically to any future proscription, I note the strength of feeling, which very much reflects my own personal views in this respect.

On the issue of the CSW, I apologise—that is something that the FCDO has specifically led on. I assure my noble friend that in the past two weeks—how can I put it?—a change has yet again been part of government, and we have seen a new Prime Minister. Nevertheless, I assure my noble friend that on the CSW I directed officials immediately, and we are working very closely, hand in glove, with the United States and other partners to ensure the removal of Iran from the United Nations Commission on the Status of Women. It cannot be right that Iran continues to be part of that body.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, the young women of Iran are an inspiration, but the Iranian regime is profiting from additional oil sales and it was confirmed this week that a major buyer of Iranian oil is India. At the very same time, the UK is offering wider market access to the very financing institutions that are purchasing this oil, circumventing UN sanctions. Does the Minister agree that we are not doing the women of Iran a service if we are turning a blind eye to our friends who are supporting the regime by making it more profitable?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I assure the noble Lord that we are not turning a blind eye, whether on the issue of Iran or the issue of Ukraine. There are countries, partners and friends of ours that have different perspectives. I cannot speak to their foreign policy, but I can assure the noble Lord that we are robust in putting to them the United Kingdom’s position, and our position on Iran is of course very clear.

Alaa Abd el-Fattah: Hunger Strike

Lord Purvis of Tweed Excerpts

Wednesday 9th November 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, no one knows how it feels for the family. I know there was a small intervention when I was not Minister for North Africa for a brief period, but meeting them directly that was one of the first actions I took in the role. Both sisters were outside the FCDO and I invited them in, because for me that was just the basic and human thing to do. We discussed the matter quite specifically. I totally take on board what the noble Baroness said. I will reassure her, to this extent: while the broader relationship with the Egyptians is an important one, this has a massive bearing on the nature of that relationship.

Equally, I know that colleagues in your Lordships’ House and the other place, including the shadow Foreign Secretary, are very much invested in this. Indeed, he is the constituency MP. I have spoken to him briefly previously, but I will reach out to specific people to update them in as detailed a manner as I can, and I will of course update the House.

I assure noble Lords that, of all the priorities I look at within my brief, the issue of whatever can be done to save the life of a British citizen ranks right up there in terms of my personal and political priorities, and the priorities for the Government. I will continue to work and to inform noble Lords of our work in this respect, but I and the Government get it. We should be pulling all the levers at our disposal to ensure that we get the basic right for every British citizen to have consular access. First and foremost, as the noble Baroness, Lady Boycott, reminded us, we need to ensure that his welfare, which includes him being alive, is also verified by the authorities.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, why has the Prime Minister been unable to secure information that a British citizen is alive? What actions did President Sisi provide in response to our Prime Minister’s meeting with him? The Minister said that UK officials being unable to secure consular access to a British citizen is unacceptable. I agree, but what consequences are there? There is a UK-Egypt association agreement that offers preferential trading with the UK to Egypt. There are mechanisms to pause this agreement on the basis of human rights abuses. Will the Government now indicate to Egypt that we intend to pause those preferential trading arrangements until proper consular access to a British citizen can be provided to the UK?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I am not going to go into the detail of what our next steps may be, but I will pick up specifically the point on consular access. The noble Lord is fully aware of the fact that Egypt does not regard him as a dual citizen; it regards him as an Egyptian citizen. That has been a real bone of contention. The fact is that he is a British citizen and I can confirm that he has a British passport and should be given consular access. The Prime Minister raised that issue directly and specifically. We are pressing for release or the first step, which is consular access, to be secured, because that is the follow-up step. I cannot say what broader measures might be taken, but I fully take on board the points the noble Lord raised. I am in maybe a quite unique position, in that I am not just the Minister responsible for our relations with Egypt; I am also the Minister responsible for human rights. I take that second responsibility most seriously.

Northern Ireland Protocol Bill

Lord Purvis of Tweed Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 7th November 2022 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Purvis of Tweed]

36: Clause 18, page 10, line 9, leave out subsection (1)
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment would remove the Minister’s power to engage in any conduct in relation to any matter dealt with in the Northern Ireland Protocol, not otherwise authorised by this Act, if the Minister considers it appropriate to do so.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, I move Amendment 36. As with previous amendments of a similar character, I am grateful for the support of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge.

Clause 18 was neatly described by the former Treasury counsel Sir Jonathan Jones as the “do whatever you like” clause. It was unclear in Committee in the Commons what the Government’s intention behind the clause was. Michael Ellis, the then Paymaster-General, said that the Government needed Clause 18, which is a power to give legal effect to a Minister’s conduct in carrying out their duties. He said:

“It simply makes clear, as would normally be taken for granted, that Ministers will be acting lawfully when they go about their ministerial duties in support of this legislation.”—[Official Report, Commons, 20/7/22; col. 1004.]


It is a great relief that we need a Minister to state that. It was quite telling that he said that they needed this power to make their conduct lawful, which would normally be taken for granted.

However, the seriousness is that there has been little explanation on what that “conduct” would be. The Government’s delegated powers memorandum did not explain it. Perhaps that is because they consider this not to be delegated power. The Explanatory Memorandum did, however, give some examples, including issuing guidance. As Michael Ellis indicated, it would also be instructing civil servants. The concern is that we have many other examples where legislation frames the conduct of providing guidance. As the Hansard Society and the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee have highlighted, this is one example of disguised legislation. Powers on providing guidance can, in effect, have legal effect. For example, my reading of this clause suggests that it is so broad that it would allow a Minister to issue guidance, which is non-statutory, but also issue instructions that that guidance needs to be followed—which, in effect, is statutory. I would be grateful if the Minister could confirm that that is not within the scope of this clause.

The Hansard Society has sought an exhaustive list of how conduct can be described. If we are to be avoiding hidden legislation, the Government need to be clear in what they seem to do. In the UK Internal Market Act, which has been referred to previously in Committee, I tried to find some equivalent—and there is some equivalent when it comes to the powers of Ministers to provide guidance. However, there are a number of subsections on that power which restrict the Minister’s ability to provide that. Crucially, there is a statutory duty for Ministers to consult with those who would be in receipt of the guidance on the operation of the Act.

Finally, the DPRRC said:

“Despite its being highly unusual and its breadth, the exercise of the power in clause 18 will have no parliamentary oversight since it is subject to no parliamentary procedure.”


Previously in Committee, the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, said that this is not what we do when it comes to breaking international law. This is not how we should be making laws—so broad, and with potentially few restrictions. The Minister simply says that this is about what they do already. If that is the case, why is it necessary? If it is necessary, what they intend to do with it should be spelled out exactly. I beg to move.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his response and to those who have taken part. I felt that I was agreeing 100% with the contribution by the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, but then I started to have doubts when the noble Lord, Lord Lilley, said he agreed with two-thirds of it. I will come back on that in just a second.

In all seriousness, I am concerned about what the Minister said. If this power, which is not framed and not specific, is guidance for industry then that is now in direct contradiction with the requirement on Ministers to provide guidance on the operation of the internal market, under the internal market Act, for Northern Ireland. Section 48, which I understand is being repealed by this Bill, as we have discussed, has a requirement on Ministers to consult before guidance is published. Under Section 12 of the internal market Act it is a legal duty for Ministers to consult Northern Ireland departments before guidance is issued. Draft guidance must be issued first. To some extent, that is the point that the noble Lord, Lord Empey, made about inclusiveness before measures.

If Clause 18 can be used by Ministers—guidance for industry, as the Minister said twice—that is far weaker than the legal requirements, and I do not understand the interaction between the two. That is a significant problem. I would be grateful if the Minister could write to explain how guidance for industry will be operated under other parts of the legislation whereas they can simply decide to do it under Clause 18 because there are no restrictions, requirements or oversight of that whatever—there is no requirement for anything in draft.

That is important, given the subtext of this serious debate and the fact that—as the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, indicated—Vice-President Šefčovič is in London at the moment. The Minister did not state whether any Ministers are meeting the vice-president on his visit. I am happy to be intervened on if wishes to clarify whether, during the vice-president’s visit to London, any senior Ministers are meeting him.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

This was the subject of conversation, but the noble Lord will be aware that my right honourable friend is currently in Sharm el-Sheikh on government business with the COP. We certainly sought to see whether they could meet on this particular occasion, but I will update the noble Lord as and when it happens.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

I am grateful to the Minister.

When the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, says that he is miles away from the situation, I have known him long enough to suspect that there is a wee bit of code there. He is probably actually pretty close to knowing what is going on, and I suspect that he is right. I worry, because the Government are not engaging widely, as the noble Lord, Lord Empey, said, or consulting. We have not had sight of what is on the table; we know what the EU has put on the table but not what the UK Government have put on the table. My fear is that, if the Government told us what was on the table, many people would be disappointed that they are only technical talks. Some people want them to be negotiations.

That comes on to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Lilley. I respect and understand his disagreement with the Government’s position—the Government want to mend it, not end it, and, as I understand it, the noble Lord thinks there is a more substantial issue with that. Ministers have said they want to fix it, not nix it. If you want to mend it, not end it, there are mechanisms, but there are also mechanisms if you want to end it. As Article 13 of the protocol states, it lasts as long as it lasts:

“Any subsequent agreement between the Union and the United Kingdom shall indicate the parts of this Protocol which it supersedes”—


so, if there is another treaty, this ends. There is nothing special about that; that is every treaty. A treaty lasts for as long as it lasts, and if there is a subsequent treaty then there is a subsequent treaty. So the noble Lord’s beef is not with us; it is presumably with the Government in order to open up the element of the withdrawal agreement and the associated TCA that he thinks are in contradiction.

[Lord Lilley (Con)]

Would the noble Lord deal with the Article 50 point? If it is intrinsically temporary and transitional, can it last for ever?

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

That is the point. We have now legislated for it, and the element we have legislated for includes Article 13.8, which is the process by which it would be superseded. I do not think there is any doubt about it; the noble Lord may have doubt in his mind about it, but in the other agreements there are mechanisms if we wish to open them.

The difficulty with this process taking such a long time is that if we were in grave and imminent peril—the Government have invoked the defence of necessity—then we would have anticipated some urgent, high-level talks to have resolved this by now. Regrettably, we are back to a situation where the stakes are getting higher because expectations are higher, but the reality, perhaps, is that some of these talks are technical.

With the greatest respect for the Minister, who I know tried to offer clarification, I am worried about what this power could be used for, and we will need to return to this. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 36 withdrawn.

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[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, I will allow a couple of seconds for people who have obviously got it off their chest during the first group to leave, in the hope that we do not go through the whole thing again.

Clause 19 is very short, at only a couple of paragraphs, but it is quite interesting, as it pleasingly addresses the situation we may find ourselves in where the Government have been successful in reaching an agreement with the European Union. Many of us have said, time and again, throughout this Committee, that we hope to see that. We have been challenging Ministers, as we have seen in the previous group, to show visible political leadership. The visibility has been lacking. I take on board what the Minister said about his right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary playing an active role, but visibility and political momentum have been lacking. I like to think that, had one of my right honourable friends been leading these events, we would have seen a far more outward-facing presence, if I can put it that way, through this process—but never mind.

Clause 19 looks at the eventuality of there being an agreement. The amendment I have tabled is one that will be familiar by now to noble Lords who have been taking part in this process from the first day of our considerations. The first line of the clause, as it stands, says that:

“A Minister of the Crown may, by regulations, make such provision as the Minister considers appropriate”.


I have asked that “appropriate” be changed to “necessary”, and I will explain why, in this particular instance, that is sensible.

This clause gives Ministers the power to implement an agreement that they hope to reach with the EU. Obviously—and we accept this—Ministers will need some flexibility in that event, and things may need to be done as a consequence of having an agreement. But I would have thought that an agreement, by its nature, would be clear and specific, and that things would be agreed that are not currently in place that would need to happen. In that instance, surely the things that need to be done by Ministers will, by virtue of the fact that they have just been agreed to with our negotiating partners, meet the test and be necessary.

It troubles me that the Government feel they should have “appropriate” there instead. That seems to give them much greater scope than is ever going to be needed in the event that this clause is used—and we hope that it will be. I would like to know from the Minister what the Government’s thinking is there, beyond thinking that “necessary” is too tight and just wanting to allow themselves a bit more room—of course they do; who would not? But this clause deals with the fact that there may be an agreement, and I do not think it is justified for the power to be as widely drawn as it is.

While I am on my feet, I note that I support the stand part notice from the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, in this case as well. The DPRRC believes that the powers in this clause are just too widely drawn, though there is obviously merit in discussing what powers are needed in the event of an agreement and what the role of Parliament should be in that situation. We think that a deal can be struck—we have said that many times—and also believe that Parliament should have the opportunity to debate any agreement, as other Parliaments will. I just note that the European Union (Future Relationship) Act 2020 was passed in a day and the TCA was ratified without direct parliamentary process. We accept that Ministers need the ability to act in the event of an agreement and we appreciate the Government demonstrating their anticipation of such an agreement in this clause, which is notable, but surely a Bill to enact an agreement would be better. That is what we have been asking for.

This is a discussion we have had with the Government on many occasions and on other agreements, when we have talked about the unsatisfactory process we still have in this country for parliamentary involvement in agreements. We do not think we have got it right yet; that is understandable, and it is perhaps going to take some time to get to that point. We have not had to engage in this for many years, but I do not think that many people in Parliament are satisfied with the way this works at the moment, and it would be helpful if the Minister could acknowledge that.

Without being too cheeky about it, we want to help the Government, given just how unsuccessful they have been so far in settling these issues. We do not see why they would be so resistant to involvement from people who are being very positive and cheering them on in their endeavours. We really do want to see a resolution to this. With that, I beg to move the amendment in my name and express my support for the stand part notice tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Purvis.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

We support the amendment in the name of the noble Baroness. In supporting it, I want to make two points. First, this clause effectively turns the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act principles on their head. We have well-established mechanisms, which are set down in statute, on how we approve new international agreements. If this is a mechanism to replace the Northern Ireland protocol, an internationally made agreement, with a new agreement, then why is the CRaG process, which allows parliamentary scrutiny, debate and, unlike this, an ability to have enhanced approvals or indeed vetoing by Parliament, not going to be the route for it? I do not understand why.

Secondly, it also sets on its head every commitment that has been provided for every trade agreement: namely, that if a trade agreement requires any primary legislation to bring it into effect in domestic law, primary legislation is brought forward—this is not done by regulation. But, again, this is being set on its head. The Trade (Australia and New Zealand) Bill is coming up, which is primary legislation—not regulation —implemented with agreement. The two Bills contradict each other really quite glaringly.

I think that this is significant because of an interaction I had with the noble Lord, Lord Dodds, on one of the previous days in Committee. I asked him whether he had given consideration—if there is, as a result of these talks, an agreement with the EU—as to how that should be put in force. The Government are saying “by regulations”, which are unamendable and could even be under a negative process; they could use Clause 19 to do this. If the noble Lord’s concern—as well as that of the noble Lord, Lord Empey—was about the need for consent, this is not the means by which that would be secured. Yet this is the means by which the Government could enforce it. There is a very jarring comparison between what consent of any new agreement would be and how the Government are seeking powers under Clause 19 to enable them to put this into force. Clause 19 should not be the mechanism by which we have sustainable support for any agreement. An order-making power for a Minister is simply not the route—and that is in addition to the fact that they are turning on their heads long-standing practices by which we put international agreements into domestic legislation. For this reason, I do not think that Clause 19 should stand part of the Bill.

[Baroness Altmann (Con)]

My Lords, I speak briefly to support Clause 19 not standing part of the Bill. Both the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman, and the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, have very eloquently explained some of the problems with this clause. Equally, I have a concern about just changing the word “appropriate” to “necessary”, because we had a relevant agreement with the EU—the withdrawal agreement, part of which is the Northern Ireland protocol—and we have passed extensive legislation for that agreement. Yet government Ministers consider both this Bill and this clause “necessary”, even though it may break international law and may tear up the agreement that we have enshrined into our law. So were this clause to stay—and, indeed, were this Bill to become an Act—there would simply be the possibility that a Minister would no longer need to come to Parliament, Parliament would have no say and our whole parliamentary democracy would be turned on its head, as the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, described. I would like to hear from my noble friend the Minister how this is consistent with our normal constitutional safeguards in our democracy.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I am sure the noble Lord will excuse me if I say that I do not have an instant response to that, but I will certainly talk to my officials and, if there are details to provide, I shall of course provide them to the noble Lord.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

There is nothing in Clause 19 on consent. If there is an agreement, what is the Government’s position on securing consent for it?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My understanding is that we would certainly abide by our previous commitments in that respect. In the interests of clarity, I will confirm that in writing to the noble Lord.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Stewart of Dirleton (Con)]

I stress, not for the first time from the Dispatch Box by myself or my noble friends on the Front Bench, that the Government’s preference remains for a negotiated solution.

The Chamber and the other place have heard from representatives of the unionist community that the presence of the European Court of Justice in the protocol is at the heart of the democratic deficit issue. Absent the provisions of Clause 20, we could end up in an incoherent position whereby substantive provisions of the protocol are disapplied but new CJEU case law associated with those provisions continues to apply. For that reason, and the others I have outlined, I urge the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment. I emphasise that bringing back the democratic institutions in Northern Ireland is the Government’s priority.

The noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, my noble friend Lord Cormack and others raised the matter of engagement with Northern Ireland politicians. I look to the noble Lord, Lord Empey, as well, on this matter, and the noble Lord, Lord Dodds of Duncairn, touched upon it too in his submission to your Lordships at this stage. This is an important point. The Government have committed to ensuring that representatives of the Northern Ireland Executive are invited to be part of the United Kingdom delegation in meetings of the specialised and joint committees discussing Northern Ireland matters, which are also attended by the Irish Government. Also, when the Northern Ireland Executive was functioning, the then Foreign Secretary regularly met the First Minister and Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland, along with the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, to discuss the protocol.

However, to reiterate the principal point, the point which brings this Bill before your Lordships’ House, the institutions are not functioning, and precisely because of the protocol. We will continue to engage, but the protocol has made things that bit more difficult.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

The Advocate-General will have had the opportunity to reflect on a previous day in Committee, when concerns about the single electricity market were raised. A key component is EU law, which is not in question. How does the Advocate-General anticipate that the joint regulatory system operating under our approach and that of the EU can operate if EU law cannot be interpreted?

[Lord Stewart of Dirleton (Con)]

My Lords, interpretation of foreign law is a matter with which all three jurisdictions in the United Kingdom are familiar. With the noble Lord’s leave, because my remit does not extend to the operation of the single electricity market, which, as he said, was touched upon by the noble Lord, Lord Hain, in an earlier group, I will defer to my noble friends on the Front Bench and will write to the noble Lord on that point. I am grateful to him for his forbearance.

I cannot properly address the possibly important proposition raised by the noble Lord, Lord Murphy of Torfaen, in his submission to your Lordships, anent having the Government of Ireland lead the European Union in terms of negotiations. That matter will have been heard by others in the Government and given appropriate significance. It is a novel proposition expressed with the noble Lord’s customary force. I am sure that the Government will look at it.

The noble Lords, Lord Dodds of Duncairn and Lord Empey, gave us the historical background and again laid emphasis which was valuable to us all regarding the importance of the cross-community aspect of the Belfast/Good Friday agreement. As I have said, briefly, the CJEU’s position has been identified as a major obstacle.

Your Lordships’ Committee heard something about the value to be given to polling; I think the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, raised that as an earlier stage, contrasting polls with actual democratic exercises. However, I can say to the Committee that polling carried out by Queen’s University in Belfast has indicated that with people who have concerns about the operation of the protocol, the CJEU and its presence and status was identified as a significant problem.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Stewart of Dirleton (Con)]

With the utmost respect to my noble friend’s question, I do not feel I can go further from the Dispatch Box on what has taken place or what I consider likely to take place in negotiations from this point.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

Will the Minister give way?

[Lord Stewart of Dirleton (Con)]

Before I do, I say that, in response to an earlier point on which I undertook to write, I am notified from the Box that the matter of the single electricity market and the European Court of Justice’s jurisdiction is covered in a letter being sent to the noble Lord today.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

That gives me an opportunity to thank the Minister for his efficiency. I look forward to reading the instant letter that is on its way.

I have a point on Article 2 and the rights associated with it. I seek some reference from the Dispatch Box, because the concern that exists, as I understand it—and I am not a lawyer; that is my declared interest—is that the directives providing the rights under Article 2 are interpretive. Therefore, if there are changes to those founding rights—or updates, interpretations or case law—there needs to be a mechanism by which we will adopt that, otherwise those rights under Article 2 are not being upheld, as I understand it. But if under the Bill the court is prohibited from having that role, what will be the mechanism while we interpret those European directives, which are protected under Article 2?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

I want to add to the two speeches that have just been given, with every word of which I agree. The Minister may say that we are being hypocritical, as was said earlier, because there have been earlier Bills where we have allowed Henry VIII clauses; but I have been in this House since 2006 and in my time I have never seen a Bill anything like this one, with enhanced Henry VIII powers—or Henry LXIV powers. To my knowledge, in my time we have never had a Bill that has gone so far beyond what one might almost call the “normal” Henry VIII clauses. I entirely agree with what the noble and learned Lord and the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, said. It really is time that the Government stand back and ask, “Is this actually reasonable? What is it that we are trying to do?” It is utterly unacceptable.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, it is very hard to follow those three eminent contributions. The egregious nature of this clause and its subsections goes beyond parliamentary affrontery because they impinge on the devolved Administrations as well. Not content with abusing this Parliament, Clause 22(6) will abuse the other Parliaments in the UK as well by creating new powers for Ministers of the Crown over those of devolved authorities. As the delegated powers memorandum blithely puts it:

“Where a matter would normally fall within the legislative competence of the devolved administrations and the passage of devolved primary legislation would not be appropriate”,


as the Minister of the Crown would say, “or timely”, on a timetable that the Minister of the Crown would set,

“it may be appropriate to create a new devolved delegated power by exercise of this power.”

It is a Trojan horse for abusing not only Parliament but Parliaments.

I have not been a Member of your Lordships’ House for as long as the noble and learned Baroness but I have been here nine years and I was a member of a devolved authority. This is not how we should be making legislation at all. This is the clause about which Sir Robert Neill said at Committee stage in the Commons,

“this is Henry VIII, the six wives, Cardinal Wolsey and Thomas Cromwell all thrown in together”.—[Official Report, Commons, 13/7/22; col. 370.]

The serious issue is that I do not know what limits the Government expect there will be on these powers. Could there be new criminal penalties? If not, they should not be within this. How about new tax powers? If that is not the intent, it should not be made possible by this Bill. Could it affect any part of the withdrawal agreement on other rights and freedoms? If that is not the Government’s intent, they should say so, but there are no such restrictions.

This is a Trojan horse, and in looking at some of the clauses a side of me wonders whether I should oppose it. It is so broad that we could rejoin many of the EU institutions we have left—just from this wee clause in this wee Bill. That might suit our Benches, so perhaps we had better not complain too much. Through Clause 22(6) and other sweeping regulation-making powers, we could rejoin the customs union and many of the institutions. If that is not the Government’s intention, the Minister should say so at the Dispatch Box. If he does not, we could use it for that purpose.

More seriously, and I will close on this, the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, has been consistent since the outset in using a phrase that has struck me: this is not what we do when it comes to international law. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, hoped over the weekend that this was all a dream and that he would arrive here on Monday to find that, like Bobby Ewing in “Dallas”, these three days in Committee never really happened. I arrived back in the country this morning from speaking at a parliamentary gathering in Buenos Aires—a network of parliamentarians supporting the International Criminal Court—in the presence of the president of the ICC. I have to say to the Minister that there have been very few times that I have been embarrassed to say that I am a British parliamentarian, but the knowledge of parliamentarians from across the world about what we are doing with this legislation shocked me. They know what we are doing. There are international gatherings about how Parliaments can support the international rules-based system, the ICC and international standards in law. This is not what we do. But it is even worse than that because our Government tell other countries what they should not do, but we are doing it at home. This is an opportunity to stop it. I hope that, even at this stage, the Government will listen to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, and just stop it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. The example he cited with regard to the operability of the red lanes is covered earlier in the Bill, so the regulation powers were debated. So I do not understand why they are needed in such a broad manner under this clause, which does not even have any of the restrictions of the previous ones. If they need powers for the operation of any of the new red lanes, they are there in Clauses 4, 5 and 6. We have debated these; they exist.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I was merely emphasising. I did refer to earlier clauses as well when I was giving one specific example in this particular group. But I hear what the noble Lord says, and, of course, I recognise that there are issues, particularly in this clause, about the powers that are being proposed. In coming on to that particular point, in relation to the concerns raised by the breadth of powers, each individual power that is being proposed in the Bill is being constrained by its purpose. None of them is a “do anything” power, and Clause 22(1) does not make them so: it merely ensures they can fully fulfil their purposes.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

That was almost a rhetorical question being posed to me. What I can say in response is that the engagement we are having with the European Union is—as I have said before, and I would be very up front and honest if this was not the case—being done constructively. The EU understands and appreciates the basis of why we are seeking to do this. It also understands that this Bill is being scrutinised, as is happening this evening, and that we are continuing to work in terms of constructive engagement.

As I have said before, with the Commissioner visiting the UK, the engagement between my right honourable friend and Commissioner Šefčovič is in a good place in terms of the level of engagement, in both tone and substance. I cannot go further than that. The noble Lord is very experienced in all things diplomatic and, indeed, is a veteran of the EU Commission. I am not going to speculate on what an EU Commissioner or an EU negotiator will say because I have never been one.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

The Minister is being patient with us and I know everybody is hungry. As the Minister has generously said he is going to write to Members taking part in the Committee, will he add something for my benefit, which is giving examples of other legislation that we have passed in which any and all parts of it can be amended by regulation immediately on commencement?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

This is turning into a very long letter. I think I am going to get something from the Box which says, “Minister, do not commit to writing anything ever again.” But I know what the noble Lord has asked of me.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Lord Purvis of Tweed]

72: Clause 26, page 15, line 45, at end insert—
“(3A) A Minister of the Crown may not make regulations under this section so as to bring sections 1 to 20 into force until both Houses of Parliament have approved a mandate for negotiations between the United Kingdom and the European Union regarding the Northern Ireland Protocol.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment provides that core provisions of the Bill cannot come into force until Parliament has approved a mandate for negotiations between the UK and the EU regarding the Northern Ireland Protocol.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, I think the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, brought about some cross-community consensus earlier when she said that she was glad that I had not spoken. As I am trying to ingratiate myself with all colleagues, it may assist if I speak to the last two groups together, if that is acceptable to the Minister and the Committee, just for efficiency’s sake.

I found it curious earlier when the Minister said that he rejected an earlier amendment because it might give the impression that agreement was in reach and talks would go on. That does seem to be the Government’s approach and, at some stage, we will need much greater clarity about not only the status of the talks—or negotiations, as the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, indicated —but what they are about. We know what the mandate of the EU is, but we still do not know what the position of the UK is. The purpose of Amendment 72 is to indicate that, before any regulations come into force, we would need to know exactly what is likely to be agreed.

Amendment 73, the final amendment in Committee, relates to the points that were very well made by the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman, regarding the fact that there will be a stage when we need to see the regulations, and I need not rehearse that argument again. We cannot do our job without seeing drafts or indications before Report, and it really should be impossible to commence the legislation unless we have seen the regulations. That is the purpose behind Amendment 73, but I beg to move Amendment 72.

[Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I want to make it very clear to the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, that I love listening to him speak and I have no aspersions against him whatever. I was just pleased that perhaps he felt that my amendment was worth considering enough to not contribute.

On this, I know it is extremely difficult for the Minister to do so, but could he give us some idea of how long he visualises—he is smiling, so I think he knows what I am going to ask—the negotiations going on before someone actually says that this is not going to work? One of the reasons I am very keen to get this Bill through as quickly as possible is so that we have it there as a safeguard. It would be helpful to know if there are any discussions going on behind the scenes on timing and just how long we can keep negotiating if we are not getting anywhere.

--- Later in debate ---

Lastly, I thank all noble Lords for their brevity, certainly after dinner. It has allowed us to conclude Committee in a timely fashion, and for that I am grateful. For the time being, I ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

I am grateful to the Minister, as always. I thank him, the noble Lord, Lord Caine, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Stewart of Dirleton, the Advocate-General, for their courtesy in Committee, which is very much appreciated. We look forward to the correspondence.

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, for her kind words. I was just teasing but, as the Minister well knows, silence from me is not always tacit approval. Still, the question that she asked is valid; we were told in July that talks had been exhausted, but now they have not been. Before we come back for consideration of what we decide about Report, we will need much more information on that.

I very much enjoyed contributing with the noble Lord, Lord Dodds, in Committee. These issues do not tire me because I find them intellectually stimulating, but we owe the people of Northern Ireland our effort, our interest and our scrutiny, because these are the lives of people of our country that we are legislating for and it is an important job that we do. The conference that I was speaking at was with many MPs from different countries who are struggling and fighting for the ability to do what we have been doing in Committee, and I am very privileged to be able to do it.

But, ultimately—the words of the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, always stick in my mind from a previous day in Committee—this is still a pig of a law, with apologies to the Minister. It has lipstick on now, and we have given it a nice frock, but it is still a pig of a law, and that has not changed. It is illegal, it is a power grab, and it will not work. Fundamentally, those three aspects are what we will have to decide on in deciding whether it even goes to Report. Until that point, and with those considerations, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 72 withdrawn.

Northern Ireland Protocol Bill

Lord Purvis of Tweed Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 2nd November 2022 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Purvis of Tweed]

16: Clause 12, page 7, line 10, leave out subsection (3)
Member’s explanatory statement
This is part of a series of amendments based on recommendations from the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee which states that a number of subsections in the Bill “contain inappropriate delegations of power and should be removed from the Bill.”

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, in rising to move Amendment 16, I warmly thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, for supporting this suite of amendments, which raises concerns about the breadth of the order-making powers that Ministers seek to gain from this legislation.

I start by thanking the Minister for his holding letter indicating that he is conferring with the noble Lord, Lord Caine, on responding to the questions raised on Monday. I am grateful for that and the efficiency of his private office.

The information from the Northern Ireland Executive suggests that there are approximately 14 live areas where there are subsidy controls, which operate within Northern Ireland under one element of the protocol. The purpose of my amendment is twofold: first, obviously, to raise the concern about the breadth of the power, which is in breach of international obligations, and about powers that the Government seek without formulating policy first.

Secondly, the purpose is to further probe what the Government intend the position to be with regard to subsidy control for Northern Ireland, and when they came to their conclusions. We are told that the position is grave and imminent—that is the defence of necessity for breaching international obligations. But we spent a lot of time in Committee and on Report on the Subsidy Control Bill. I moved two amendments relating to Northern Ireland, and the noble Lords, Lord Dodds and Lord Empey, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, also raised these issues in Committee. Like others, I asked on a number of occasions what interaction there would be with the protocol and what difficulties operating two systems would cause. The noble Lord, Lord Callanan, reassured me that they would work together.

--- Later in debate ---

I know that more general issues have been raised in this debate and previously, and I am sure they will be raised in our future discussions in Committee. I hope I have provided detail, to the extent I can, on some of the questions, issues and concerns raised. Equally, I give the added assurance, as we have in previous Committee stages, that I shall write to the relevant noble Lords if there is further clarity or detail to be provided.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, I am very grateful for the Minister’s response. He knows that I respect him greatly, but he said the current scheme had complexity and uncertainty and, with great respect, I do not think he added simplicity and clarity regarding the successor scheme.

My lack of a social life will bear witness to the fact that I was in for every day of the Committee and Report stages of the Subsidy Control Bill, as I will be for this Bill. I asked about complexities and uncertainties. The Minister replied to me in February:

“To respond to the concern of the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, that state aid rules would continue to apply even if the UK’s negotiating position were accepted, these are specific and limited circumstances. I trust that this will allay the Committee’s concerns on this important issue.”—[Official Report, 2/2/22; col. GC 244.]


The Minister is now saying that those “specific and limited circumstances”, which the Government said would result if they were successful in their negotiations, will be impossible to secure, so they are now seeking sweeping powers. He did not indicate when that policy change happened. It is a major change, and I simply do not know when it happened.

That position is also contradicted. The noble Lord, Lord Dodds, referred to Invest NI. As I did at Second Reading, I will read from the Invest NI website:

“This dual market access position means that Northern Ireland can become a gateway for the sale of goods … This is a unique proposition … These additional benefits”.


Invest NI is using dual market access to promote Northern Ireland. The Government may be right that this is now acting to the disbenefit of Northern Ireland, and we have asked for evidence for this. If they are designing a new scheme, the real risk, as the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, indicated, is that uncertainty will have a major chill effect that will bring about the very things the Government say they are concerned about.

I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman, that we are asked to legislate for unknown unknowns. On Monday I called these “Rumsfeld clauses”. The Government are seeking powers for known unknowns, but if they get it wrong in the future—which they do not know about—they want powers to deal with it now. The problem is that none of the powers in this Bill, which is replacing the Subsidy Control Act, has any of the restrictions and requirements of the regulating powers of that Act. The breadth of the powers goes way beyond the Subsidy Control Act, which is now proposed to be a single element.

Supposedly, these powers are simply for what Ministers consider appropriate, but I am not sure that a Minister would ever think their actions inappropriate when they bring forward proposals. It is for the law to say what is not appropriate in regulations; that is our job. The noble Lord, Lord Pannick, is absolutely right: it is not about what just Ministers or even necessarily just opponents on the Opposition Benches might use. It might be their successors as Conservative Ministers—we have had a fair few of them—who completely change policy. This is so broad.

A point of substantial importance is that there is a deep inconsistency in the Bill. The Government seem to think that it is acceptable to have a dual regulatory regime for goods but one route for subsidised goods. I have seen no mechanism that might cover a subsidised good. I really do not know whether that situation is clear.

With the greatest respect to the Minister, I do not think the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, received a sufficient response to her question. She will make up her own mind about this, of course. Agricultural subsidies are not included in the Subsidy Control Act—we debated this long and hard—and although the Minister said that this will now be covered in the proposals, I do not know where. The danger is that there is now an enormous black hole in the provision of agricultural subsidies. Given the agricultural support scheme announced earlier this year, I do not think it fair to have these concerns.

I do not think the Minister has satisfied the Committee. I hope that he and his officials will reflect on Hansard and provide more of the information we want to see. Unless the Government’s proposals are made much clearer, significant doubt will remain. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 16 withdrawn.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Lord Purvis of Tweed]

20: Clause 13, page 7, line 27, leave out subsection (4)
Member’s explanatory statement
This is part of a series of amendments based on recommendations from the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee which states that a number of subsections in the Bill “contain inappropriate delegations of power and should be removed from the Bill.”

[Lord Purvis of Tweed]

My Lords, Amendment 20 is, in many ways, connected and therefore I need not be as long about this

Let me quote from the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee on Clause 13:

“Parliament has no knowledge of the Government’s plans but is meanwhile expected to rubber stamp all the regulation-making arrangements.”


That surely is not a means by which we make good legislation. The committee is highlighting Clause 13(1), which states that

“Any provision of … the EU withdrawal agreement, is excluded provision so far as it confers jurisdiction on the European Court in relation to … the EU withdrawal agreement”.


As highlighted by the DPRRC and others, it is a stretch to say that the invocation of the defence of necessity would permit the extending to all parts of the exclusion of the European court. I should be grateful if the Minister could state in clear terms why the Government’s legal position, which does not clarify this, states so.

There is a policy concern, which was aired so well by Stephen Farry MP when this was considered in Committee in the Commons. If, as seems to be the Government’s position, there will still be Northern Ireland direct interaction with the EU single market—with north-south trade as a major part of the Northern Ireland economy—without the European court having application, it puts at risk what that genuine market access is for Northern Ireland. He made that point in clear terms and I need not add to it, because the case is very strong. The policy paper The UK’s Solution, when it highlighted the problems, did not suggest the removal of the court altogether either. So is this a red line in the talks for the Government?

Secondly, concern has been raised about human rights consideration. The Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission has highlighted the fact that the breadth of the powers in

“Clause 13 of the Bill would restrict the CJEU’s interpretive role in disputes relevant to Protocol Article 2”.

We discussed on Monday the need for that to be dynamic in relation to the obligations under Article 2, and its potential removal will create concern. I hope that the Minister is able to be clear, in response to the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission, that there would be no diminution of rights.

Given that the Government have not made the case, and given the concerns about the impact on the operation of the single market and Northern Ireland’s position within that, as well as the human rights concern, I beg to move.

[Lord Judge (CB)]

My Lords, I shall not repeat myself, but I shall draw attention to the fact that, in the debate on the previous group, the Minister kept telling us that the word “appropriate” had been used in circumstances like these, as if that was something to be greeted with joy. Each of those pieces of legislation was a dreadful abdication by Parliament of its responsibilities. Even if the Minister is right—I am not challenging his veracity or judgment; let us assume he is right—that so far none of them has caused any problems, it would be nice to know that and I take it from the Minister that none has, but that does not mean that they may not cause huge problems in the future, or that when we have a change of Government, which we may have, that will not cause problems when their Ministers decide that they are going to apply these regulations. I really find that argument “It has been done before; therefore it is a precedent”—and I am a lawyer—but I do not think all precedents are wise and that one is a particularly unwise one.

I know I am trespassing back on to the previous debate, but I have another concern. During his reply, the Minister offered a number of reasons why this regulatory-making power was needed. Fine, but why are they not then put in the legislation, so that we can have a look at what these regulatory powers, at any rate at the moment, are designed to address? For the purposes of this group, if there are matters which the Government have in mind which they think can be served by a regulatory-making power, fine, but let us see what the primary legislation should contain.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I thank again all noble Lords who have spoken on this issue. I will approach the question on the single market in electricity, and I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Hain, for tabling his amendments in this respect. I will start with Amendment 20, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Tweed of Purvis.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

Lord Purvis of Tweed.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

Did I say “Lord Tweed of Purvis”? It is written in my notes as “Tweed of Purvis”. It is getting late. I am picking up on the noble Lord, Lord Campbell—it is catching. Maybe there is a suggestion in there—I would be the noble Lord, Lord Wimbledon of Ahmad. My apologies to the noble Lord.

The Government have references to the potential use of powers in Clause 13(4), which several noble Lords mentioned. In short, these would ensure an effective assurance and enforcement regime that could give confidence in the protection of the UK and EU markets. This includes fulfilling our ongoing commitment to provide data to, and to co-operate with, the EU, an intrinsic part of the overall model. The noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, also raised the issue of data sharing and I will come to that in a moment.

The noble Lord, Lord Purvis, rightly raised the protection of Article 2. I assure the noble Lord—I believe I said this on one of the previous Committee days and my noble friend Lord Caine also answered on this—that my noble friend Lady Altmann and I have discussed this, and we have made sure that the response is fully integrated. The UK is committed to ensuring that rights and equality protections continue to be upheld in Northern Ireland, in line with the provisions of Article 2 of the protocol. That is why Article 2, as my noble friend Lord Caine also made clear, is explicitly protected from being made an excluded provision in Clause 15. My noble friend discussed this with and responded to the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, and I know from exchanges between the two departments that we will respond in writing to the noble Baroness, as promised. We will share that with noble Lords, placing a copy in the Library. I assure noble Lords that this point is not lost. As I have said, where further clarity can be provided during the passage of the Bill, my colleagues and I will seek to provide it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

I do not know if I disappoint or please by saying that there are several more pages in my speaking notes which may address in part what the noble Lord, Lord Hain, said, and this relates also to his amendments on the issue of assessments on non-excluded provisions. To make a general point, whether it is the perspective of the Government in introducing the Bill or the sentiments we have heard from our noble friends, including those within the DUP, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, I think we are all coming at this with the end objective of ensuring that the benefits there have been from the market should be protected. I am quite happy to discuss the specifics with the noble Lord, together with officials, after the debate to see if there is a specific insight we perhaps have not picked up on in respect of these amendments, and how we can have a further discussion in this respect. I fully accept the key principle—I think we all do—regarding the protections that have been afforded and the gains that have been made. Of course, no one wants any lights going off anywhere.

It is the Government’s view that Amendments 21C and 23B, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Hain, would prevent any regulation being made under the powers in Clauses 13 and 14 before an impact assessment had been carried out with regard to the regulation’s effect on non-excluded provisions of the protocol. Regulations under Clauses 13 and 14 should not be presumed to have any impact on non-excluded provisions of the protocol. They are not excluded and will continue to apply—indeed, they will continue to attract the benefit of the EU law principle of supremacy.

However, if the noble Lord is simply after a more general economic impact assessment—this is where I am saying that a discussion may be helpful—I am not sure that these amendments are required either. Regulations under the specified clauses could be highly technical, with little economic impact. For example, Clause 13(5) specifies that regulations under Clause 13(4) may make provision about arrangements with the EU relating to the operation of the Northern Ireland protocol, including information sharing. As such, the Government could be forced to provide an impact assessment on, for example, a data-sharing system between two competent authorities, which has little or no impact on wider parts of the protocol or economic operators—or, indeed, any impact outside of government at all.

I assure noble Lords that the House will have the opportunity to scrutinise any regulations in the usual fashion, and that the Government will provide all the usual accompanying material under the normal parliamentary procedures, including economic impacts where relevant. However, it is the Government’s view that mandating by statute that impact assessments must be provided for every single regulation under Clauses 13 and 14 would be overburdensome, and it does not tally with the standard principles for impact assessments. To add to the point I made earlier, on the specifics that have not been covered in my concluding remarks, I will write to the noble Lord, Lord Hain. As I said, I believe that there is a common cause to be had here, so if time allows, I am quite happy for us to schedule a discussion on this as well.

Clause 13 outlines the exclusions that seek to redress the feeling that a democratic deficit is created by the arrangements for the implementation and enforcement of the protocol. First, via subsection (1), it provides that any provision of the protocol which confers jurisdiction on the CJEU over the arrangements in Northern Ireland is an excluded provision. This means that CJEU decisions, including infractions, will no longer have effect in domestic law across the entire protocol. Secondly, via subsections (2) and (3), it assists in restoring the Government’s sole oversight of arrangements on the ground in Northern Ireland, providing that the provisions relating to the powers and presence of EU representatives are excluded. Finally, to address the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, via subsections (4) and (5) it allows for the establishment of replacement arrangements, which provide the ability to put in place new supervisory and data-sharing arrangements with the European Union. This will support assurance processes to protect both the UK and EU markets and facilitate co-operation between UK and EU authorities. That is why we believe that the clause should stand part of the Bill.

Again, I am grateful for the discussions and debate on this group. While I am not suggesting that all noble Lords will have been fully satisfied by my response, I hope that they will be minded not to press their amendments at this time.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, I am grateful for the Minister’s response. I reassure him that I am not precious either about my name or my title. My former constituency was Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale, and I was once introduced to the Massachusetts state assembly by the Speaker as, “Jimmy Purve from Twiddle, Ettick and Louder”. He managed to get every single word wrong, and then he kept asking, “So, where is Twiddle, Jimmy?”

I am grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate and for the Minister’s remarks on Article 2 rights. The point stressed by the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission was that the rights are only ongoing rights if they can be both interpretive and dynamic. If you remove the court of justice’s ability to do that, they stop being rights. We are obliged to make sure that they are “ongoing interpretive”, but the power in the Bill puts that at risk. It would be quite straightforward to simply say that that can carry on.

Ukraine

Lord Purvis of Tweed Excerpts

Tuesday 1st November 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, I reiterate that these Benches are completely at one with the Government in giving full support to the Ukrainian people in their fight against Putin’s illegal and immoral act of aggression.

The Russian missiles launched against Ukrainian energy and water systems are part of a deliberate and callous strategy to target civilian infrastructure ahead of winter, causing as much damage to civilians as possible. Therefore, the resilience of Ukraine’s energy, heating and water systems is vital in resisting Russia’s attacks on that civilian infrastructure.

James Cleverly said yesterday in response to my right honourable friend David Lammy that

“the UK has pledged £100 million to support Ukraine’s energy security and to reform, and £74 million in fiscal grants to support Ukraine through the World Bank.”—[Official Report, Commons, 31/10/22; col. 625.]

All this is very welcome, but he was unable to give a specific answer on the number of generators we have supplied, and promised to find out the details. The reality is that, in such war conditions, practical support and speed of delivery are essential. In addition to detailing the number of generators that we will supply, can the Minister assure the House that we are working with all relevant suppliers to speed up matters? Also, can he tell the House whether such action is being co-ordinated in conjunction with our allies, particularly our European allies?

As we have heard in media reports today, Russia’s attacks on infrastructure and the electrical grid have not been limited to the use of drones, missiles and bombs. Europe Minister Leo Docherty said on the BBC this morning that Ukraine faces

“the same threat and same challenge in the cyber domain,”

representing the most extensive compromise of a single Government seen in history. He confirmed that support is provided through the FCDO, with officials saying that it has led the way among allies in providing specialist expertise. Can the Minister tell us whether this support is being co-ordinated with such allies? What assessment has the department made of the implications of escalation of the conflict?

In relation to arms supplies to the Russians, the Foreign Secretary said that the UK will be keeping a close eye on the actions of Iran, and indeed other countries. He confirmed that we would take appropriate action to dissuade them from supplying arms and would react if they do. Can the Minister assure the House that in reacting the Government would work in complete tandem with our allies, such as the US and the EU? On too many occasions we have been slower than our allies to react.

On the important issue of grain exports from Ukraine, the UN-backed agreement has been vital in reducing global food prices. Putin’s unjustifiable decision to pull out of this deal will undoubtedly have catastrophic consequences. It comes at a time when many countries are already food insecure, including Somalia, where an imminent famine is feared. This is a cruel and transparent use of hunger as blackmail. Any spike in world food prices will be the responsibility of the Russian Government. Therefore, this agreement must be restored.

The Foreign Secretary said that he had spoken to his Turkish counterparts in the past, expressing our gratitude for the work they have done in securing the grain export deal. However, it was unclear from what he said whether he has spoken to his Turkish counterparts and Turkey’s political leadership on the potential for restoring grain flows since Russia’s announcement. Have the Minister’s department or the Foreign Secretary been in touch with Turkey in recent days? The Foreign Secretary did not address the steps that the UK is considering to mitigate the worst consequences for the developing world if these efforts fail, but I hope the Minister will be able to do so today.

James Cleverly also told the other place that we are supplying a considerable number of air defence missiles, which is very welcome in light of the attacks we have seen. Can the Minister assure us that we are able to keep up with the demand for these missiles with our US and NATO allies? Can he assure the House that we can provide all the lethal and non-lethal equipment that is being requested?

I conclude by reiterating Labour’s full support for the Government’s actions in respect of Ukraine.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, as the barbarity of Putin continues and winter approaches, our admiration for the resilience of the people of Ukraine knows no bounds. The Minister knows that we have supported the government strategy; the support for the Ukrainian Government and people; and the sanctions regime— notwithstanding that we have highlighted areas where we could have gone further and faster on sanctions, as has been highlighted. There is no doubt that Putin wants both malaise and division in the West, and we support the Government in ensuring that that does not happen.

I have a number of questions for the Minister about the direct impact of the sanctions regime on Russia, which he will have heard me ask before. I ask for an update on what the direct impact of our sanctions has been, because they do not seem to have prevented the barbarity continuing in certain areas.

Could the Minister also be specific about what we are saying to our allies in the Gulf and in Asia, India in particular? Have the Foreign Secretary and the Prime Minister raised at the highest levels the concern about the impact of our allies providing neutrality but also therefore de facto support? This is a challenging area for UK foreign policy, but one we need to tackle. It would be depressing if we are so reliant on the Gulf’s inward investment and so hopeful for a trade deal with India that it prevents us having very hard conversations with our allies.

As the noble Lord, Lord Collins, indicated, we have seen the grotesque weaponisation of energy, fuel and grain by Russia. Prices have risen already with the 4 million tonnes of shipments that are being prevented from being distributed. As the Minister knows, this will have a disproportionate impact on the countries in east Africa and the Horn of Africa that are already facing famine. What direct measures are we taking to ensure that shipments can be released? What security support might be made available to ensure their supply?

The Minister knows that we have supported the UK’s support for Ukraine and we of course supported the resettlement scheme at home. He will also know that we have repeatedly highlighted concerns that this is provided at a direct cost to overseas assistance to countries in need. Figures suggest that the resettlement scheme at home for Ukrainians will be met entirely from ODA funds, which will mean that, for the first time in our nation’s history, more overseas development assistance will be spent domestically than bilaterally abroad. That is unprecedented. I hope the Minister will say that this is not correct.

It was disturbing to read Kwasi Kwarteng’s tweet in June, posted when he was BEIS Secretary, saying on supplying defence equipment:

“My Department has contributed to the effort by surrendering climate finance and foreign aid underspends.”


Countries with which we are seeking to build a diplomatic consensus against Putin are seeing the UK provide support, which is welcome, but at a direct cost for those countries. Just before the start of proceedings this afternoon, I met the deputy speaker of the Malawi Parliament, who raised questions as to why cutting support for young girls in Malawi was a cost of UK support for Ukraine. Surely this is a cost which will do us long-term damage. I hope the Minister is able to respond to these issues. We will not retain moral value in our work for Ukraine if other countries see us cut directly as a cost of it.

[The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank both noble Lords for their statements of support for the Government’s position. As I have said before, it is important to show a unified stance in this House, in the other place and indeed as a country on the continued Russian war on the innocent people of Ukraine.

As the noble Lord, Lord Collins, said in the introductory remarks to his questions, we have seen a continued onslaught, with Kyiv being indiscriminately targeted and the whole reasoning being to target basic energy supplies as winter approaches. On that point, as my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary made clear, we are in touch directly with the Ukrainian authorities. The new Prime Minister’s first call was to President Zelensky, and my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary has spoken again to Foreign Minister Kuleba. Yesterday, as we were going through the NIP Bill here, during the dinner break I had a brief conversation with the excellent, incredible, brave and courageous ambassador of Ukraine, who was again visiting Parliament. His spirit is inspirational to us all in the face of the onslaught on his country.

To go back slightly, on the specific question which the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, mentioned, of course I am acutely aware of the challenges of the ODA budget. He will have noticed the appointment of my right honourable friend Andrew Mitchell, who is an incredible advocate for development and development spending. At the moment I cannot give the noble Lord a breakdown of exactly what that spend will be, but we are in discussions with the Treasury. He is right to point out the challenges that the ODA budget faces. On a personal note, he will know that I am very much committed, as I have said several times, to the United Kingdom retaining the important place it has on the global stage with regard to development support. I know that Malawi has a particular place in the heart of every Scottish person; I think 43% of Scots have a link with someone in Malawi based on our development support.

On the issue the noble Lord raised about engaging with the Gulf states and India, I can say that my right honourable friend recently returned from India, having been on a conference there where he raised the issue directly with External Affairs Minister Jaishankar, and I know that Prime Minister Sunak has also spoken to Prime Minister Modi. The situation in Ukraine was part and parcel of their discussions, and that will continue. I assure the noble Lord, as the Minister for both India—as was confirmed to me this morning—and the Gulf, that I will certainly continue these conversations as part of my portfolio of responsibilities.

The noble Lord, Lord Collins, also raised the issue of our co-ordination with Turkey. I fully acknowledge, as I am sure do all noble Lords, the important role that Turkey has played on the UN grain deal. Indeed, when I last met with the Foreign Minister of Turkey at the UN General Assembly, we commended Turkey’s efforts and the importance of its role continuing. We are working closely with Turkey in that respect. Since the announcement of Russian’s suspension there was a UN Security Council meeting only yesterday, and our embassy in Ankara has engaged, as have our teams at the UN in New York, and I know that the Foreign Secretary is very much planning to engage quite directly with his counterpart. Noble Lords may be aware that he is also travelling to the G7, where again these issues will be raised. On the point that the noble Lord, Lord Collins, raised about co-ordination and partnership, the Government hold that closely as a key priority in our response across the piece when it comes to standing up to Russian aggression.

The noble Lord, Lord Collins, raised the issue of energy security, and of course we are working directly to the requirements of the energy ministry of Ukraine and responding to its needs there. The Foreign Secretary will be looking at the issue of the price cap with the G7 partners. On the noble Lord’s specific question, I can say that to date we have provided 856 generators to Ukraine and we continue to work closely with Ukraine and alongside our key partners, be they NATO, the European Union, the United States or other allies, to ensure that we continue to be strong and solid in our support for what Ukraine requires.

Both noble Lords raised the important issue of sanctions. To date, we have seen over 1,200 individuals sanctioned specifically by the United Kingdom Government, along with 120 entities. There are quite specific details which I have mentioned before, but because of our sanctions we have seen a direct reduction in the growth of the Russian economy. There has been a disabling effect on Russia’s own economic progress, and of course we have seen that through some of the desperate actions that Russia is engaging in as a direct result of the economic sanctions being imposed. Of course, I take on board what the noble Lord said specifically about the need for continued co-ordination but also talking to other partners so that there is an even more united impact and effort to ensure that Russia feels the true cost and the impact of sanctions.

On the issue of grain supplies, the noble Lord is of course correct. However, Russia has again emphasised that this is a suspension, not a termination. About 100 ships were scheduled to go through the Bosphorus into the Black Sea and pick up grain, and a number of vessels are being allowed to return. The issue of course arises for inward vessels and their being part of the UN agreement. We are working in direct contact with the United Nations, which is overseeing this process along with Turkey, and we will update the House accordingly.

I stress again that this is a suspension. Russia called yesterday’s UN Security Council meeting, and we believe that the case it presented is unfounded. The Russians forgot to mention one material fact: that the Black Sea fleet is in Ukrainian territorial waters—a basic salient fact missed, or not articulated, by the Russians. That is the fundamental point in all this.

I fully acknowledge what the noble Lord, Lord Collins, said: the grain supply has provided lifelines. We have seen 700 million tonnes, I think, delivered to many vulnerable countries. Coming back to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, this includes Ethiopia, Afghanistan and Yemen, so there is real impact from what we are doing.

The issue of the drones provided by Iran was raised. On wider issues, noble Lords will know that the United Kingdom, along with our allies, has taken specific sanctions against Iran on the continuing and prevailing situation within the country, but we note specifically what more can be done, and how we can further limit the impact of such exports to Russia is being considered.

As noble Lords will know, in 2022, UK military support amounts to £2.3 billion: more than 200,000 pieces of non-lethal aid, including helmets, body armour, range fighters and medical equipment. Future delivery includes AMRAAM missiles for use in the US NASAMS air defence system—again showing the importance of co-ordinating with our key allies. We have also provided more than 100 logistic support vehicles, armoured vehicles and a further 600 short-range air defence missiles. There is an extensive programme of support for Ukraine, which is bearing results.

Let us not forget that, in the occupied areas of Ukraine, Ukrainian forces are now making forward moves; they are making progress. That is resulting in the reaction we are seeing in this indiscriminate bombing of Kyiv, in particular.

I assure noble Lords that we will continue to provide updates on a regular basis, and I will continue to update the noble Lords, Lord Collins and Lord Purvis, on the Front Benches, in the usual way.