Jailing of Hong Kong Pro-democracy Activists
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Baroness Chapman of Darlington) (Lab)
I was not expecting Chagos this afternoon, I have to say. We have discussed the issue around Chagos and the treaty we have with Mauritius at length. As the noble Lord knows, Mauritius is a close ally of India and the UK, and the treaty will be subject to scrutiny in this House, so I hope that the concerns he raises about Mauritius somehow being susceptible to something around China can be responded to during that process.
The noble Lord is right, though, to draw attention to the fact that the UK Prime Minister met President Xi at the G20 in Brazil in the last few days and rightly raised the case of Jimmy Lai. Noble Lords can see the footage of that exchange for themselves, and they can reach their own conclusions about how it went.
On the 45 who were sentenced under the NSL, we are opposed to the NSL. We see this as in breach of the agreement that we reached with China in respect of Hong Kong; we are deeply concerned about what has happened. The 45 people were exercising their right to political expression and have now been imprisoned for it, and we oppose this.
Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)
My Lords, after meeting President Xi, our Prime Minister said that he wanted to see more trade with China, notwithstanding the fact that the UK has a trade deficit in goods with China of over £25 billion. The previous Government refused to even countenance the suspension of some trade preferences from China in the UK economy if there were significant human rights abuses. In opposition, the noble Lord, Lord Collins, and I were at one in calling for a statutory human rights and trade policy. Can the Minister state that it is still the intention of the Government to ensure that human rights can trigger suspension of certain trade preferences from China if there are significant human rights abuses?
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
As the noble Lord knows, we keep these things under constant review. We are deeply concerned about what has happened, not just in recent days in Hong Kong with the sentencing but about wider issues that I know he and my noble friend Lord Collins will have worked on together in the past. We have made quite strong statements at ministerial level in the last few days on these issues, and we will continue to do so as appropriate.
Chagos Islands
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Baroness Chapman of Darlington) (Lab)
My Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, said, there have been changes of Government in the US and Mauritius. I take this opportunity to congratulate both President-elect Trump and the new Prime Minister, Dr Ramgoolam, in Mauritius, on their election victories. Changes of Government are an inevitable part of negotiations with fellow democracies. We have also had a change of Government in this country since these negotiations began. This is the conclusion of a few years’ worth of negotiation—11 to 13 rounds of negotiation took place under the previous Government. We were aware that this could happen, and we are working closely with our allies, in both the US and Mauritius, on making sure that everyone is comfortable with the deal and the treaty. We have no reason to think that this is not the case at this stage.
On engagement with Chagossians, it was not possible for them to be party to these negotiations because they took place between Governments. I regret what happened to the Chagossians in the past—it was over 50 years ago, but that in no way diminishes the pain and hurt that they will have experienced. I accept that Chagossians will be concerned about the arrangements reached. We have prioritised the security of the US-UK military facility on Diego Garcia. People can disagree with that and can say that prioritising security was the wrong thing to do, but that is what the Government have chosen on behalf of the people of the United Kingdom, because we think that was in the best interests of the UK. There are arrangements in the deal to allow Chagossians to visit and return, and some Chagossians will be able to take advantage of that.
The treaty will be published as soon as it has been finalised with the Mauritian Government, and there will be a process for Members of this House and the Commons to debate it.
Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)
Given that there was no public information from the previous Government—of whom the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, was a member—about any of the 11 rounds of negotiations that took place, does the Minister agree that two points of principle should be adhered to now? First, for the treaty approval process, nothing should be done on behalf of the Chagossians without their involvement, and Parliament should have an ability to vote on the treaty proactively, rather than the limited process under the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act. Secondly, unlike what Nigel Farage or Kemi Badenoch might suggest, British foreign policy should be formed and set by us, not Donald Trump.
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
My understanding is that the process will be the usual one for agreeing these treaties. We need to be careful about the use of the word “consultation”, because there will be an opportunity to listen to the views of Chagossian communities and to understand that there is more than one view among them about this deal. It would be wrong to give the impression that there would be an opportunity to have a treaty changed in light of Chagossian voices. We can all have a view on that, and some of us might wish that it could be otherwise, but when we are dealing with a matter of security like this in the Indian Ocean, and with a treaty between two Governments, it is far better if we are up front and honest about what will be possible during that process.
BBC World Service
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Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
It is vital that we maintain the independent position the BBC has, so that it makes its own decisions. However, this Government want to refresh the approach to soft power. We are establishing a soft power council, in which I hope the World Service will take part. From my point of view, it is absolutely legitimate for the Government to say that we are worried about these circumstances in these places and to share our understanding of situations around the world, and it is for the BBC to tell us to back off and to make its own decisions. My aim is to have a collaborative, respectful relationship with the BBC, preserving at all times its independence and ability to make its own choices.
Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)
My Lords, I agree with the comments the Minister just made and thank the Leader for her response to me two weeks ago, when I raised concerns about World Service cuts in Lebanon. Does the Minister share my concern that, although the BBC World Service is critical for supporting civil society in many conflict areas, the more recent government development cuts of £2 billion—a reduction from 0.58% of GNI to 0.5%—could put at risk the very kind of programmes that support civil society resilience in many conflict areas? I welcome the extra support for the BBC World Service, but will the Minister make sure that there are not cuts elsewhere to programmes that support civil society in these critical vulnerable areas?
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
We are reviewing development spend, as noble Lords would expect. We do not have the luxury of limitless funds to spend. We are spending a lot of our development money on housing people who arrive here in the UK for 12 months after their arrival. We need to get that spend down so that we can spend it much more wisely on preventing conflict, educating women and girls, supporting freedom of religion and belief, and all the other really positive, important work that we want to do in country. That is our aim.
West Papua
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Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
This is very much a bipartisan issue, and so it should always be. The Government will be making announcements about trade envoys and others, I hope very soon.
Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)
My Lords, has the Minister been briefed on the Human Rights Watch report from September, which recommended that the Indonesian Government unconditionally release West Papua and other detainees in exercise of their fundamental political rights, and specifically for the new Indonesian Government, just formed, to permit UN human rights monitors to visit West Papua? This would honour a commitment that the previous Indonesian Government gave in 2018 but that has yet to be honoured. Have His Majesty’s Government specifically asked for that latter point with the new Administration?
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
We support the work of the UN Commission on Human Rights in this regard. As the noble Lord suggests, this was raised in recent dialogue with Indonesian political representatives.
Journalists Detained or Killed Overseas
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Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)
My Lords, the situation in Juba, South Sudan, requires the kind of reporting and free media that the Minister states, and I agree with her very strongly. However, in Sudan, with the world’s greatest humanitarian crisis and the conflict going on, there is scant reporting and still very brave journalists who are under very considerable threat. The Disasters Emergency Committee has told me that it is not willing to open a humanitarian appeal for Sudan because of the lack of public awareness of the Sudanese crisis. Will the Government support UK-based media and those who are seeking to allow the public to understand that the world’s greatest humanitarian crisis is going on? Those who are responsible for asking the public for support are not being asked.
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
I was not aware that the DEC took that view. I will look into that, following the noble Lord’s question. It is clearly right that journalists should be able to report from situations that they feel we need to know about, and we respect their freedom to do that and support it. I assure journalists who wish to report from Sudan that they will have the support of the British Government in doing their job.
China: Human Rights and Sanctions
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Baroness Chapman of Darlington) (Lab)
That is quite an easy one because my colleague, Minister Catherine West, has met Jimmy’s family on several occasions, both in opposition and since being appointed as a Minister. I also recall from reading the transcript of the Commons exchanges yesterday that the Foreign Secretary did indeed commit to meeting Sebastien Lai.
Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)
My Lords, the Foreign Secretary said yesterday in the House of Commons
“this Government will set a long-term, consistent and strategic approach to China”.
That would be welcome. He went on, however, to criticise the previous Government in 2015 for what they termed a “golden era” of their relationship with China. Have the Government committed in their strategic audit of their relations with China, which I support, to include all the preferential trading agreements the UK has offered China? This includes financial services, where Chinese state enterprises which have some element of involvement in human rights abuses may be involved in preferential market access to British financial services. Will that review be public?
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
I am grateful to the noble Lord for his support for the China audit. I think the most helpful thing I can say at this point is that the audit will be thorough and cross-government; the whole of Whitehall and all departments will be included in that audit.
Ukraine: North Korean Troops
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Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
The noble and gallant Lord is correct, and that is what we will have. We have gone over this ground very many times, but it is always worth repeating that the defence of Ukraine is the defence of Europe. The consequence of the West doing anything other than showing the resolve that the noble and gallant Lord recommends would be to send a deeply worrying message that we fail to stand up to aggressors such as Putin. That must never, ever be something we can tolerate. We stand united in this House, in the country and with our allies.
Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)
My Lords, part of the pernicious relationship between North Korea and Russia is the supply of military equipment, but the disturbing BRICS summit, which many of our trading allies are currently attending with Putin, means that there are too many countries supplying component parts that can be channelled through North Korea and end up being used on the battlefields of Ukraine against our ally. Will the Minister ask the Office of Trade Sanctions Implementation—a new development that we welcome —to be proactive in ensuring that component parts for military equipment from our trading allies do not end up in Ukraine, and to look at widening our trade sanctions?
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
Our sanctions regime and the legislation that surrounds it apply to any UK entity, be that in the UK or worldwide, as the noble Lord knows. We will speak to anyone we need to, using any appropriate channels, to try to dissuade others from supplying Russia through whatever means. All anybody supplying Russia with munitions, troops or anything else serves to do, whether they are an ally of ours or not, is prolong this illegal war and the suffering of the people of Ukraine.
Iran (Sanctions) (Amendment) Regulations 2024
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Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for outlining these measures, which I support. I will make an appeal and ask two specific questions, on which I would be very happy if she writes to me rather than responding today.
I agree with everything the Minister said about the role of Iran in the Middle East and its relationship with Russia. My appeal is that we broaden our interests to include Sudan. We know that many of the drones in Sudan have been sourced from Iran. It is the world’s biggest humanitarian crisis at the moment. External actors are providing munitions despite there being no justification at all for any external munitions to be used on civilians in Sudan. I would be grateful if the Minister could write to me with the Government’s assessment of what is currently being used in the conflict in Sudan from external sources, specifically with regard to Iran.
I turn to my questions. First, I absolutely support the prohibition on equipment, but I noticed—if I read the measures correctly—an exemption for the personal property of someone travelling. Does that include designs? Do His Majesty’s Government have any concerns about UK interest in the design of these munitions, not just the provision of equipment to manufacture them? Again, I do not necessarily expect the Minister to outline that today.
Secondly, on the provision or export of goods to third countries that relay trade to Iran, I hope the Government have a response to what could be a particularly easy circumvention of these measures if our trade is with a broker country. We know that much of the equipment being used has multiple components from many sources; I would be grateful if the Government have a response on that. Notwithstanding those questions, I support these measures.
Lord Callanan (Con)
I thank the Minister for her kind introduction to this subject. We also fully support these regulations on drones, broader drone technology, financial services, funds and brokering services related to other items of strategic concern; of course, they are one piece of a much larger jigsaw. The Minister commented on the impact of Iran in our previous debate on Russian aggression in Ukraine.
Both the other noble Lords who have spoken outlined graphically how actively and malevolently Iran is undermining the international order through its support for Hamas, Hezbollah and the Houthis. While it is tempting to think that these are faraway conflicts, any action by the Houthis in the Gulf has the potential to undermine international shipments of oil, gas and other important commodities, which can affect the economy and well-being of this country. Therefore, it is right that we are targeting further the Iranian regime. We fully support these sanctions.
I lend my support to the point made by my noble friend on the proscription of the IRGC. It is strange that so many Conservative Ministers and MPs were in favour of proscription but never managed to get it through the Foreign Office bureaucracy and now so many Labour Ministers and MP who were previously in favour of proscriptions also do not manage to get it through the FCDO bureaucracy. It makes you wonder whether “Yes Minister” was a commentary or a documentary indicating the true state of affairs with the standing bureaucracy in this country. I know that this is difficult, but political will must win over bureaucratic will. I hope that the Minister can influence the Foreign Secretary to return to his previous views and hers and those of her ministerial colleagues and finally proscribe the IRGC. That would meet with widespread support across both Houses of Parliament and from me and many of my noble friends.
We support the sanctions and hope that the Government have success in implementing them.
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
My Lords, I again thank noble Lords for their contributions and support for these measures.
On the IRGC, I note the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, about the frustrations of political life and government. That is all I will say on that line of inquiry. We have already sanctioned the IRGC in its entirety. The separate list of terrorist organisation proscriptions is, as noble Lords know, kept actively under review. We do not routinely comment on whether an organisation is or is not under consideration for proscription. I will leave that there for today.
The noble Lord, Lord Purvis, makes an important point on Sudan. I will write to him about Sudan, but I point out that when sanctions are applied to Iran, they will affect Iran’s ability to supply Sudan as much as it would Russia. That will be the intention. On the issue of personal property, we have in minds such things as laptops, phones and other personal items. It would be restricted to that. It is right to flag this issue, and we are aware of it, but we felt it was important to include it.
This will apply to UK entities and individuals overseas and anyone who is in the UK. It will not apply any more widely than that. This is how the UK organises its sanctions, as the noble Lord knows. I know that he has long had a very keen interest in the issue of secondary sanctions and how we might engage with them. That is the situation as embodied in these regulations and with regard to the UK’s policy towards sanctions more generally. If I have missed a point there, which I think I may have done, the noble Lord must feel free to come back and help me out.
Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)
It might be my ignorance about how this operates, as it may well be covered elsewhere. I understand that there will be a prohibition on exporting this equipment, but I am not sure that any of it has end-use certificate requirements. Therefore, how will we know if we are sending it to another country which then immediately ships it to Iran? How is that covered?
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
I will hopefully improve my note-taking as we go on with this. Brokers would be specifically in breach of sanctions were they to facilitate or knowingly support in any way something ending up with Iran. I hope that helps the noble Lord. If he needs any further information, I would be happy to speak to him about it.
These measures represent a step forward in our capability to restrict Iran’s proliferation of advanced conventional weapons, which continue to fuel conflict in the Middle East and support Russia in its illegal war in Ukraine. The UK Government are firmly committed to using sanctions to hold the Iranian regime to account for its malign activities in the UK and elsewhere. I beg to move.
Russia (Sanctions) (EU Exit) (Amendment) (No. 4) Regulations 2024
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Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)
I am grateful for the Minister outlining in clear terms the Government’s position on the wider aspects of the sanctions enforcements. I support this measure. I spoke on the previous regulations on 19 July 2023, when I raised the issue that the Law Society had brought to our attention. It has subsequently had follow-up communications saying that this permanent solution is preferable, and I therefore support it.
I will raise a separate issue that the noble Lord, Lord Alton, spoke to me about—I think he spoke to the Minister prior to the Committee—concerning shipping insurance. I checked Hansard and, on 1 February 2022, I raised a question about this in a debate on one of our early Russia sanctions. The Minister’s colleague, the noble Lord, Lord Collins, heard us raise the continuing concerns in Grand Committee last week. I understand that this has also been raised in a letter today from the right honourable Sir Iain Duncan Smith, the chair of the all-party group on Magnitsky sanctions and reparation, regarding the concerns of 12 vessels that it alleges are continuing to receive insurance via the UK. I hope the Minister might reply on this, although I do not necessarily expect her to give the Government’s response to a letter that was sent to the Foreign Secretary today. But we have an important debate in the Chamber on Friday, so an update from the Government, if possible—written to Members of the Committee and also placed in the Library—would be of assistance to us in our debate on Friday. With that, I support the Government’s moves on these sanctions.
Lord Callanan (Con)
My Lords, I too can be brief. These are of course updates and clarifications of sanctions introduced by the previous Government. We were grateful for the support of the Opposition then and, on behalf of the Opposition now, I offer my full support for the changes that the Minister announced. It is important that we maintain the principle of unity across the parties in support of these sanctions and of Ukraine, taking action wherever possible to restrict Russia and its activities across the world. We need to be mindful of the big role that the City of London plays across the world in legal, financial and professional services. Some UK companies are undoubtedly involved in helping the Russians to circumvent these sanctions. We fully support the strictest clampdown on these activities. We should be very proud of these industries, but they should be used for right, not for helping Russia in this regard.
Following the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, I offer my support for the letter from Sir Iain Duncan Smith to the Foreign Secretary. We support these sanctions but ask the Government to look again at what more can be done to clamp down on the shadow fleet of tankers that Russia is using to spread its oil and gas around the world. As the noble Lord said, I do not expect the Minister to reply now to a letter that was sent only today and probably has not been received yet, but I hope that the Government can bear this in mind and can possibly give us an answer on Friday. We fully support these sanctions.
Somaliland
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Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
Well, I am very pleased to provide consistency in the Government’s approach. The UK needs to tread carefully in the Horn of Africa in regard to this, given the situation that the noble Lord has just described. We have strong links; we have a permanent diplomatic presence in Somaliland. But my sense is that it would not be the right thing to do for stability in the wider region to wade in and take such an action at this time.
Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)
My Lords, given that Ethiopia has recognised Somaliland in return for Red Sea access, and Egypt has signed a military and security defence arrangement with Somalia, and with Ethiopian troops currently in Somalia, I believe caution is justified. The UK was the lead funder for the African Union peacekeeping mission in this area in Somalia against Al-Shabaab. Is it not in the UK’s key strategic interests that we restore the funding for the new mission, whose mandate will be renewed at the end of this year, to ensure that Al-Shabaab does not benefit from the tension and standoff between Somaliland, Somalia, Ethiopia and Egypt?
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
I am grateful to the noble Lord for reminding us just how complex this situation is. We have to keep in mind where Ethiopia, Egypt, Somalia and Eritrea are—this is somewhere where you do not take rash decisions. We are committed to making sure that the fight to combat Al-Shabaab is taken forward and we will play our role in that, as the noble Lord would expect.