British Indian Ocean Territory: Sovereignty

Lord Purvis of Tweed Excerpts

Thursday 19th December 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Baroness Chapman of Darlington) (Lab)]

My Lords, the negotiations with Mauritius are not destabilising the entire region, and we were not in a hurry to conclude them. As we have said before, these negotiations commenced two years ago and had gone through many rounds of negotiation under the previous Government. On the issue of scrutiny, I say that the treaty will be subject to the usual process in this House. There will also be primary legislation that will go before both Houses and be amendable in the usual way; I do not think we have explored that in our exchanges previously.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

I thank the Minister for meeting me yesterday with my Commons colleagues to discuss this issue; I am grateful for that opportunity. Does she agree that this is, regrettably, turning into a bit of a political football, with the principal Opposition claiming discourtesy now, after having 11 rounds of negotiations without consulting the Chagossians or providing any details of the basis of those discussions? It was also regrettable, perhaps, that this Government released the announcement after the general election but before the Mauritian general election, and it was regrettable that the previous Government allowed the matter to drag on before our general election. However, there is an opportunity now for the involvement of the Chagossians and for there to be clarity with regard to what the treaty text might be. As the Minister has heard me say before, an enhanced parliamentary scrutiny procedure is now very important. We need to put in reassuring measures for the Chagossians that this political football will not be to their disbenefit again.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I could not agree more with the noble Lord’s comments on his desire, which we share, that this should not be a political football. We should all tread carefully and respectfully in the way that we discuss this. The timing of the Mauritian election was not in our gift. The negotiations reached a conclusion that day, and our Prime Minister thought that the right thing to do was to be open about that fact. Yes, there has since been an election in Mauritius and, quite rightly, the new Mauritian Government wish to cast their own eye over the treaty. We respect that; it is what any incoming Government would want to do. Having said all of that, I strongly agree with the noble Lord on the way we discuss these issues, because they matter so much to many people. They affect our security but, as he rightly points out, they matter most of all to the Chagossian community.

China: Human Rights and Security

Lord Purvis of Tweed Excerpts

Thursday 19th December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, this has been a debate of fitting quality at the end of this calendar year. I pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Alton, for bringing it to us. In some respects, I hope this final debate of 2024 might frame some of the early debates we have in 2025, when we look at the Chancellor of the Exchequer’s visit to Beijing and other Ministers’ visits to China. I hope they will be able to take the contributions from this debate into consideration when they form their views, because we have served a challenge function and reflected on some of the subjects we need to debate.

As my noble friend Lady Smith said, tis the season of another government approach to China. The noble Lord, Lord Ahmad, outlined the previous Administration’s approach, so we can see the word salad of “protect”, “co-operate”, “prioritise”, “challenge”, “align”, “compete” and “engage”. The word that is missing is “strategy”, and you could add “published” in front of that. I pay tribute to my noble friend Lord Fox, because he outlined in such clear terms why we need to have one.

I say this with great respect, because I both understood and agreed with much of the speech from the noble Baroness, Lady Lawlor, but I felt there was a contradiction, to some extent, in seeking to move away from trade dependency on China towards other trading partners in the CPTPP who also predominantly have seen growth as a result of trade with China and are now basically a vehicle for us to have enhanced trade with China. This seems to be the Government’s adopted approach for trade. It seems that “European Union” are the two words that dared not speak their name in the debate. If we seek to diversify away from trade dependency on China, it might be that we should have stronger trade links with our European neighbours.

[Baroness Lawlor (Con)]

Just to clarify, my proposal, which was not clear at all, was that we should help and encourage those countries that have a trade dependency with China—that is, those CPTPP partners—to move away from that trade dependency and use our role to do that.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

I can understand that as a theoretical approach, but of all the current CPTPP members, it is the United Kingdom—the newest country —that has the largest trade deficit of them all with China. Those members would look to us to diversify away from China, so the whole ambition is the other way around. We hope, if the Government are doing a strategic audit, that their analysis will come to the fore, but, as the noble Lord, Lord Rogan, indicated, there are worrying signs that the audit may not be published or that it may be delayed until the Chancellor of the Exchequer has been in Beijing. We may not even have it presented for debate in Parliament, so I am starting to be quite concerned.

As my noble friend Lord Fox indicated, we need this because of the industrial-scale economic surveillance, and the scraping and capture of data from the UK economy, as a tool for industrial espionage, for state advantage, and for state enterprises to strategically undercut and underprice in certain key sectors of our economy. As my noble friend Lord Fox’s work on other elements of our key technology and infrastructure says, we need to enhance our resilience, especially now when we see what China is doing globally in seeking software and hardware for global ports of entry systems, for shipping and for telecommunications.

China is not a passive global actor. I acknowledge that neither are we, and nor is it a criticism that it is not, but the strategic aim for China is to have a sphere of influence in a multipolar world. That is distinct from how we see the world, which we feel should be based on a liberal, international order of rules. There are differences in how we see global diplomatic and development interactions. The UK—working with partners, of course—should be clear that our perspective of the world is distinct.

In previous Questions and Statements, the Minister has been honest with us and said that she did not know whether the new Government’s approach to this will work. She has said that in this Chamber. However, she said that it was worth trying. It is worth trying if we are seeking to grow our economy, but the cost of the growth of our economy, while being a supplicant at a trade deficit in key sectors, means that we are unlikely to see a level of sustainable growth, or the protection of human rights and national security. Of course we should be partnering in certain areas, but we should not do it blind.

That is why the noble Lord, Lord Rogan, and others have said, as I did in my question to the Minister just this week with regard to the National Security Act—on which the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, and I worked very hard—that the approach should be evidence-based, taking into account national security considerations and threats. It should not be subservient to economic development or to one perception of economic development. That is why we need to look at elements of our relationship with Taiwan, as the noble Baroness, Lady D’Souza, said; we have a strategic economic partnership with Taiwan, which is a liberal, open democracy that does represent our thinking.

With regard to China, there are further actions that this Government can take, which the previous Government did not take, when they look at auditing UK-based assets owned by the CCP and at the potential use of Magnitsky sanctions against those responsible for the erosion of Hong Kong’s freedoms. We can pursue further areas of human rights, and I hope that the Government will not set them aside as a result of the Treasury’s approach.

Last weekend, on a fascinating visit to the Doha Forum, I saw the approach that many developing nations and economies are taking to China. I sat in a session with President Kagame of Rwanda, Prime Minister Mottley of Barbados and a Chinese operative. What was fascinating was that President Kagame said that, when he speaks to potential western investors, “We get tons of lectures, not goods”, but Prime Minister Motley said that all her interactions and developing nations’ interactions should be based on “global principles”. There was a contradiction that I heard from them. I pointed out that when it comes to China and Africa, for example, the UK is a bigger investor in Africa than China at the moment. We can assert ourselves with the values of Barbados on global principles and not accept the narrative that there are lectures, but we should be an active participant in this area.

I close by coming back to what my noble friend Lady Smith indicated when it comes to the need for there to be a coherent approach, and perhaps this is referencing the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Godson. It seems that the new Government’s approach is to

“find a way of engaging with China in a more meaningful and deeper relationship that recognised the threat, but also sought to try to co-opt China into the international order”;

an approach that understands

“that many of the world’s biggest challenges like climate change or biodiversity loss were not going to be solved without engagement with China”.

That is a direct quote from George Osborne’s evidence to our International Relations and Defence Select Committee, which my noble friend and I had the pleasure of serving on, when we concluded our report in September 2021.

That report’s title was The UK and China’s Security and Trade Relationship: A Strategic Void. It called for the Government to

“produce a single, coherent China strategy, as recommended by the Foreign Affairs Committee in April 2019, and a plan for how it will execute that strategy”.

We still need that. If the Government believe that they will have a 10-year period in office rather than five years, the need for a single, coherent, published China strategy is vital, and I hope the Minister may agree to it.

As I sit down, I wish all Members a happy Christmas and a merry New Year. He is not in the Chamber at the moment, but this will be the last occasion when Mr Cameron-Wood, the Deputy Principal Doorkeeper, will carry the Mace out as the House rises, after 13 years of sterling service to this House. I wish him and all the staff a very happy Christmas and New Year.

Chagos Islands: UK-US Defence Relationship

Lord Purvis of Tweed Excerpts

Thursday 5th December 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Baroness Chapman of Darlington) (Lab)]

Our view is that this makes us more secure. The UK-US base has been subject to challenge for the last 50 years, and this agreement would be the first time that the presence of our joint base with the US on Diego Garcia would be legally secure. We think that that is a prize worth having.

On the question of why we are rushing, I do not think that anybody could characterise this as being a rush. There have been 12 or 13 rounds of negotiations, most of them conducted under the previous Government, and we think that this is a good deal for the UK. We have prioritised our security at the front of our minds when undertaking this task, and we have been challenged on that, because there are other things that other people would have liked us to have prioritised, such as the legitimate grievance of the Chagossian community. We have prioritised security and making the base on Diego Garcia legally secure, which is the right position for this Government.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, notwithstanding the 11 rounds of exploratory discussions under the previous Government—and I suspect that, in the next Urgent Question on Ukraine, we will be asked not to follow the incoming Trump Administration when setting British foreign policy—does the Minister agree with me that it is perfectly right for the new Mauritian Government to review their own policies? I welcome the fact that the UK Prime Minister’s national security adviser met the new Mauritian Prime Minister in early court. Does the Minister agree with me that the principle of the Chagossians being involved in the process now under way—especially given the deficiencies in parliamentary scrutiny under the treaty-making powers—means that they need to be involved in proper parliamentary scrutiny, to avoid this becoming political football yet again in which they will lose out? That will provide an ability in Parliament to approve any treaty proposals through debates in both Houses.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I agree with the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, that we need to allow the new incoming Mauritian Government the time and space to do what they need to do. As a newly elected Government, it is absolutely right that they take the time they need to consider the agreement fully. We will be working with them. As the noble Lord said, Jonathan Powell has been there, and we are answering any questions that we would expect them to have.

On the engagement of the Chagossian community in the parliamentary process, I completely understand why the noble Lord wants this to happen. I am not against that happening. My concern is that we do not raise expectations or lead the Chagossian community on. We are very straightforward and clear that this is an agreement between the UK Government and the Mauritian Government. We do not want to compound the cruelty and disrespect with which they have been treated over decades by not being completely straightforward with them at this stage—I am concerned about that. He knows the deficiencies of the CRaG process as well as I do, but it still remains the process.

Ukraine

Lord Purvis of Tweed Excerpts

Thursday 5th December 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Baroness Chapman of Darlington) (Lab)]

My Lords, my colleague, Minister Stephen Doughty, will be taking forward any conversations that may be necessary as a consequence of recent events. On the assets, we are looking at every means possible to ensure that the funds are there for Ukraine when it needs them.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, we noted earlier that Prime Minister Modi took the opportunity to be with President Putin rather than with Ukraine’s allies in the Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting recently. The Russian Government are still trading far too freely in energy, especially in oil and petroleum. The Vadinar refinery in India is 49%-owned by Rosneft. The Jamnagar refinery is also trading with Russia, as well as Bharat Petroleum and Hindustan Petroleum. Our Prime Minister has announced that our trade discussions with India will recommence at the beginning of 2025. Can the Minister reassure me that we will not be offering any trade preferences for the Indian energy sector, which is currently profiting from the terrible infliction of the war on Ukraine?

Georgia: Political Situation

Lord Purvis of Tweed Excerpts

Wednesday 4th December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

The noble Lord is completely right, and I respect the fact that he was there so recently and took part in that process. I will read the PACE report; I have read excerpts from it, but I will read it in full, as he suggests. We are deeply concerned, as he alluded to, about the intimidation not just of observers but of voters, as well as the whole atmosphere around the elections and in the period leading up to them. I thank the noble Lord for the work that he has done and for bringing it to this House’s attention.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that it is the young people of Georgia in particular who need to be commended, because they are seeking to exercise their democratic and civil rights and they have been persecuted? I heard what the Minister said with regard to sanctions, but the United States has issued restrictions on those who have persecuted young people since the elections. Does the Minister agree that no Georgian official who has orchestrated attacks on young people in Georgia exercising their rights should have preferential visa access to the United Kingdom or be able to exploit certain conditions where the United States has said they are not justified?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

We take close notice of what our allies are doing in relation to Georgia at the moment. I sometimes feel, when the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, asks these questions, that he has something specific in mind and is inviting me to guess what it might be. We will be using all the levers at our disposal to try to do right by the people of Georgia who, as far as anyone can tell, have not changed their desire to seek a democratic outcome. We have concerns that we think need to be investigated. It is up to the people of Georgia to choose who governs them and to choose whether they tilt to the West or to Russia. That is their choice, and it must be a choice that is made freely.

Israel-Gaza Conflict: Arrest Warrants

Lord Purvis of Tweed Excerpts

Tuesday 26th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Baroness Chapman of Darlington) (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Wolfson of Tredegar, for his point, and I have seen the letter he wrote to the Attorney-General. It raises an important point and a question of law. There are two pieces of law here, both of which the Government respect but which need to be fought out in a court. That is the right way to resolve this and that is the process that would happen should we receive a warrant and should Mr Netanyahu visit the United Kingdom.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, that legislation allows only the ICC to issue a waiver on immunity, so can the Minister confirm whether such a waiver from the ICC has been provided? The Minister in the House of Commons said yesterday that it is for the courts to endorse the warrant. My understanding is that that is not correct. Under the legislation, it is the Secretary of State only who endorses the warrant and then passes it on to a judicial officer. It is then for the courts to determine whether they will deliver that person—if that person is in the UK—to the ICC in The Hague. Can the Minister confirm that the Secretary of State will endorse the ICC warrant?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, we will comply with our obligations under our membership of the ICC. My understanding is slightly different from the noble Lord’s in that, as of now, the warrants are not issued to all signatories to the ICC. The warrant would be issued should it become known that Mr Netanyahu intended to travel to the United Kingdom. As noble Lords will appreciate, as yet we have not received any such warrant.

Taipei Representative Office in the United Kingdom

Lord Purvis of Tweed Excerpts

Monday 25th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, unlike our trade with China, with which we have a trade deficit of £23.7 billion—which is a strategic vulnerability—the UK has a trade surplus of £1.1 billion with Taiwan. As discussed in our first Question today, it is a liberal democracy that respects modern slavery standards, labour law rules and intellectual property rights. Surely it is in our strategic interests to grow trade with Taiwan over trade with China. In the context of the previous visit to Europe by former President Tsai, can the Minister confirm that no FCDO official was in contact with the TRO to suggest that her visit be postponed?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Lord is correct to point out our good trading relationship with Taiwan. We do not see this as an either/or. We have a good trading relationship with both China and Taiwan. I can only reiterate the answers given about the visit in the other place and in this Chamber. The characterisation that has been given to this visit is not one that the FCDO recognises.

COP 29: United Kingdom Delegation

Lord Purvis of Tweed Excerpts

Thursday 21st November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, these matters are hugely significant for the future of the world. Yes, it would be wonderful if we could reach agreement on really difficult issues—where the UK, I am proud to say, plays a leading role—by circulating an email or on WhatsApp. Sadly, we cannot do that; we need to meet face to face and we need to hammer these things out. The cost of this and the CO₂ that may be included in gathering together to make these decisions and to provide that leadership pales into insignificance compared with the benefits to the climate of being able to reach agreements together. I just encourage noble Lords to perhaps raise their sights ever so slightly to look to the longer term.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, the vital issue of loss and damage for developing states, which are at the front line of the climate emergency, was not mentioned at all in the Prime Minister’s speech in Baku. I met a delegation of MPs from Barbados on Tuesday and they, alongside the SIDS community, told me—quite alarmingly—that they see little support from the UK for climate mitigation efforts. First, can the Minister assure me that UK support for loss and damage is ring-fenced against the development cuts that were announced in the Budget? Secondly, does she agree with me that—as the Barbadians told me—when the UK does not offer support, China does? It offers support with conditional lending. Surely, within the Commonwealth, the UK should be doing more and not creating gaps that China fills.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

What the noble Lord highlights is the importance to many of our global partners of action on the climate, whether that is prevention of climate change through the work that we do, not just here in the UK but internationally, on reducing carbon, or whether it is on loss and damage mitigation or resilience against extreme weather events. Many of the countries that the noble Lord refers to are very low emitters but are on the front line of this. That is why I am proud of the leadership that this country takes on this issue.

Jailing of Hong Kong Pro-democracy Activists

Lord Purvis of Tweed Excerpts

Wednesday 20th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Baroness Chapman of Darlington) (Lab)]

I was not expecting Chagos this afternoon, I have to say. We have discussed the issue around Chagos and the treaty we have with Mauritius at length. As the noble Lord knows, Mauritius is a close ally of India and the UK, and the treaty will be subject to scrutiny in this House, so I hope that the concerns he raises about Mauritius somehow being susceptible to something around China can be responded to during that process.

The noble Lord is right, though, to draw attention to the fact that the UK Prime Minister met President Xi at the G20 in Brazil in the last few days and rightly raised the case of Jimmy Lai. Noble Lords can see the footage of that exchange for themselves, and they can reach their own conclusions about how it went.

On the 45 who were sentenced under the NSL, we are opposed to the NSL. We see this as in breach of the agreement that we reached with China in respect of Hong Kong; we are deeply concerned about what has happened. The 45 people were exercising their right to political expression and have now been imprisoned for it, and we oppose this.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, after meeting President Xi, our Prime Minister said that he wanted to see more trade with China, notwithstanding the fact that the UK has a trade deficit in goods with China of over £25 billion. The previous Government refused to even countenance the suspension of some trade preferences from China in the UK economy if there were significant human rights abuses. In opposition, the noble Lord, Lord Collins, and I were at one in calling for a statutory human rights and trade policy. Can the Minister state that it is still the intention of the Government to ensure that human rights can trigger suspension of certain trade preferences from China if there are significant human rights abuses?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

As the noble Lord knows, we keep these things under constant review. We are deeply concerned about what has happened, not just in recent days in Hong Kong with the sentencing but about wider issues that I know he and my noble friend Lord Collins will have worked on together in the past. We have made quite strong statements at ministerial level in the last few days on these issues, and we will continue to do so as appropriate.

BBC World Service

Lord Purvis of Tweed Excerpts

Thursday 14th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

It is vital that we maintain the independent position the BBC has, so that it makes its own decisions. However, this Government want to refresh the approach to soft power. We are establishing a soft power council, in which I hope the World Service will take part. From my point of view, it is absolutely legitimate for the Government to say that we are worried about these circumstances in these places and to share our understanding of situations around the world, and it is for the BBC to tell us to back off and to make its own decisions. My aim is to have a collaborative, respectful relationship with the BBC, preserving at all times its independence and ability to make its own choices.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, I agree with the comments the Minister just made and thank the Leader for her response to me two weeks ago, when I raised concerns about World Service cuts in Lebanon. Does the Minister share my concern that, although the BBC World Service is critical for supporting civil society in many conflict areas, the more recent government development cuts of £2 billion—a reduction from 0.58% of GNI to 0.5%—could put at risk the very kind of programmes that support civil society resilience in many conflict areas? I welcome the extra support for the BBC World Service, but will the Minister make sure that there are not cuts elsewhere to programmes that support civil society in these critical vulnerable areas?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

We are reviewing development spend, as noble Lords would expect. We do not have the luxury of limitless funds to spend. We are spending a lot of our development money on housing people who arrive here in the UK for 12 months after their arrival. We need to get that spend down so that we can spend it much more wisely on preventing conflict, educating women and girls, supporting freedom of religion and belief, and all the other really positive, important work that we want to do in country. That is our aim.