Online Hate Speech

Debate between Lord Pearson of Rannoch and Baroness Warsi

Thursday 15th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

I—

[Baroness Warsi (Con)]

Does my noble friend agree with me that all Members of this House should be working to eradicate all forms of hate speech? I note that the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, is desperate to get into this question. Maybe if he has the opportunity to do so, he would explain whether he thinks it appropriate for Members to host the likes of Tommy Robinson within the precincts of this House at a time when there is an increased risk in relation to hate crime and Members of the other House have been receiving hate letters.

European Commission: UK Member

Debate between Lord Pearson of Rannoch and Baroness Warsi

Thursday 10th July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Warsi]

Possibly even from Yorkshire, my Lords. As to the serious part of my noble friend’s question, we need to make sure that our Commissioner candidate understands the changing role of the European Union, the need for reform and the fact that the Commissioner has to act in a way that benefits member states and the European Union as a whole. I can assure my noble friend, and indeed the House, that the Prime Minister has a line-up of very strong candidates.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch (UKIP)]

My Lords, are the Government aware that our new Commissioner will have to swear sole allegiance to the European Union, ignoring our national interest?

European Union: United Kingdom MEPs

Debate between Lord Pearson of Rannoch and Baroness Warsi

Thursday 26th June 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Warsi]

My Lords, the noble Lord will understand that there are a number of political parties that form part of the alliances and blocs at European level. Indeed, he will also know the Conservative Party’s recent response, concerning that alliance, in relation to the parties in Germany. He will be aware that we take a very serious view of extremism, whether domestically or in relation to political parties with which we engage overseas.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch (UKIP)]

My Lords, rather than co-operate more closely with comparatively powerless MEPs, should not the Government try to do so with the EU Commission? Given the current saga over Mr Juncker’s appointment as its boss, should not the Government tell the British people just how much more power the Commission has, with its monopoly to propose and execute all EU law? If the Government do not want to reveal this, could they encourage the BBC to do so? I regret to say that at the moment, in clear breach of its charter, it is adamantly refusing to do that.

[Baroness Warsi]

The noble Lord makes the important point that the European Commission and the President of the Commission have an incredibly important role. That role has most autonomy and has the right of initiative, and the Commission itself plays a quasi-judicial role. It is important for those reasons that whoever leads the Commission is a candidate who commands respect and who understands—this was clear at the last European Parliament elections—that people need a change. All political parties in this House will agree that the process that has been adopted is not one with which any of us here agree.

Gibraltar

Debate between Lord Pearson of Rannoch and Baroness Warsi

Monday 20th January 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Warsi]

The noble Lord is right that the incursions have been steadily increasing: in 2011, there were about 23 incursions; in 2012, they went up to 228; and in 2013 they went up to 509. The good news is that there has been a welcome reduction since December of last year, so this may mean that there is a slight change in attitude. We have been asking for the ad hoc talks to resume; we have reiterated to the Spanish Government the Foreign Secretary’s proposal of ad hoc talks, which he made in April 2012, involving all the relevant parties.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, is it not Spain’s unfortunate domestic situation, brought about by her membership of the euro, which encourages her to look outwards and behave badly over Gibraltar? Is the result not yet another example of how useless the EU and our membership of it have become?

[Baroness Warsi]

My Lords, I think that these matters are much more complex than that.

EU: Balance of Competences Review

Debate between Lord Pearson of Rannoch and Baroness Warsi

Thursday 9th January 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Warsi]

A number of subject areas were dealt with in the first set of reports, which looked at legal competences and how they were being exercised. Many of the areas were non-contentious and it was felt that the balance of competences was right in those areas. However, even where those areas of competences were supported, suggestions were still made by a number of organisations and individuals about how they could be improved. For example, there was much support for a single market but it was felt that that market could be broader and deeper.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch (UKIP)]

My Lords, can the noble Baroness tell us of any area of our national life which the EU administers with competence? Would it not be more honest to describe this exercise as the Government’s EU incompetence review? Now that even the mildly Eurosceptic Mayor of London, Mr Boris Johnson, has come to see that the project of European integration has failed and is outdated, is not the answer to wrap the whole thing up and throw it away?

[Baroness Warsi]

It is always interesting to hear the noble Lord’s views on the issue of Europe. I am sure that he was pleased that UKIP representatives had an opportunity to feed into the first set of reports. The Government fundamentally believe that we can have a better Europe and that we should have and push for further reform. It is obvious from the first set of reports that have come through in the balance of competences review that many of the issues that have been raised by the Prime Minister’s and the Government’s existing reform agenda came out as part of those reports.

UK: EU Membership

Debate between Lord Pearson of Rannoch and Baroness Warsi

Tuesday 7th January 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch (UKIP)]

Surely the noble Baroness did not suggest that, were we to leave the political construct of the European Union and maintain our free trade, as of course we would because it sells us much more than we sell it, any jobs would be lost. She was not saying that, was she?

[Baroness Warsi]

I did not quite catch the question, but I can assume what the noble Lord asked. There are great benefits to our membership of the European Union.

Islam

Debate between Lord Pearson of Rannoch and Baroness Warsi

Tuesday 19th November 2013 Grand Committee

[The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con)]

My Lords, I welcome the opportunity to put on record this Government’s view on extremism and terrorism. I start by thanking the noble Lord, Lord Triesman, for his bold words of support, and I add my wholehearted endorsement to everything that he has said.

I begin with the Prime Minister’s words in the wake of the horrific murder of Drummer Lee Rigby in May —the words to which the noble Lord refers in calling this debate:

“What happened on the streets of Woolwich shocked and sickened us all. It was a despicable attack on a British soldier who stood for our country and our way of life, and it was a betrayal of Islam and of the Muslim communities who give so much to our country. There is nothing in Islam that justifies acts of terror, and I welcome the spontaneous condemnation of the attack from mosques and Muslim community organisations across our country. We will not be cowed by terror, and terrorists who seek to divide us will only make us stronger and more united in our resolve to defeat them”.—[Official Report, Commons, 3/6/13; col. 1234.]

Those are his words, and I thank my noble friend Lord Sheikh, the noble Lord, Lord Bhatia, the noble Baroness, Lady Uddin, the noble Lord, Lord Ahmed, and others for their kind words of support for the Prime Minister’s stance—support which was received from across the world and from across the British Muslim community. Indeed, if Islam justified terror, we would not have seen the out-and-out condemnation of this brutal murder by the British Muslim community.

After that attack, we saw the Ramadhan Foundation, the Muslim Council of Britain, the Christian Muslim Forum, MINAB, the Al-Khoei Foundation, the British Muslim Forum, the Ahmadiyya Muslim Association, the Karima Institute, the Islamic Forum of Europe and many, many others come out and say, “Not in our name”. They were united with the country in grief and horror at what happened on a London street. I wholeheartedly support this clear and unequivocal condemnation. As the noble Lord, Lord Hameed, said, let us stand and be counted. The British Muslim community did just that.

I am grateful for the very considered contribution from the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Birmingham. Islam, like all the major religions, is not inherently violent. Passages from sacred texts must be taken in context. It would be possible to distort quotes from any religious text.

The noble Lord referred extensively to the sword verses in the Koran. These are often cited by critics to demonstrate that Islam is violent in its very nature. These same verses are also selectively used, or abused, by religious extremists to develop a theology of hate and intolerance and to legitimise unconditional warfare against Muslims and non-Muslims.

It is not surprising that the Koran, like the Hebrew Scriptures or the Old Testament, has verses that address fighting and the conduct of war. However, like all scriptures, Islamic sacred texts must be read within the social and political context in which they were revealed.

As a political anorak, I shall step away from theology and talk TV political drama. In the hit American show “The West Wing”, a conversation between the Catholic President, Bartlet, and a bigoted TV presenter went something like this. President Bartlet:

“I like your show. I like how you call homosexuality an abomination”.

The TV presenter:

“I don’t say homosexuality is an abomination, Mr. President. The Bible does”.

President Bartlet:

“Yes it does. Leviticus 18:22. I wanted to ask you a couple of questions while I have you here. I’m interested in selling my youngest daughter into slavery as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. She’s a Georgetown sophomore, speaks fluent Italian, always cleared the table when it was her turn. What would a good price for her be?”. While thinking about that, can I ask you another question? My Chief of Staff, Leo McGarry, insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly says he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself or is it okay to call the police? Here’s one that’s really important because we’ve got a lot of sports fans in this town: touching the skin of a dead pig makes one unclean. Leviticus 11:7. If they promise to wear gloves, can the Washington Redskins still play football? Can Notre Dame? Can West Point? Does the whole town really have to be together to stone my brother John for planting different crops side by side? Can I burn my mother in a small family gathering for wearing garments made from two different threads? Think about those questions, would you?”.

I could not make this point more clearly. These texts from the Old Testament could so easily be manipulated to cause mischief and indeed have been manipulated in the past. But being religious means making choices and understanding the central values of your faith. It also means considering the context in which that faith was formed. To be an adherent, one must also be a historian. This is a point that the late Benazir Bhutto, the first female Prime Minister of a Muslim country, once put particularly well when speaking of teachings in the Koran. She said:

“In an age when no country, no system, no community gave women any rights, in a society where the birth of a baby girl was regarded as a curse, where women were considered chattel, Islam treated women as individuals”.

Noble Lords will be aware that most religions have suffered at one time or another from extremism. Islam is no exception. The essential lesson taught by Islamic history is that extremist groups are ejected from the mainstream of Islam. They are marginalised and seen as heretical aberrations to the Islamic message. That is why religious leaders such as countless Muslim scholars have stood tall, not only condemning acts of violence committed in the name of their faith but issuing clear Islamic rulings, a fatwa on why terrorism is a rejection of what Islam stands for.

The noble Lord, Lord Pearson, has a clear interest in Islamic theology. He makes a distinction between the Prophet’s life in Mecca and Medina. He refers to the “sword verses” in the Koran. He joins critics to demonstrate that Islam is violent in nature. Ironically, these same verses are also selectively abused by religious extremists to support their theology of hate and intolerance. It is not surprising that the Koran, like the Hebrew Scriptures and the Old Testament, has verses on fighting and the conduct of war but they must be put into context.

As many noble Lords have said in this debate Islam, like all world religions, neither supports, nor advocates, nor condones terrorism. I am saying that the values of al-Qaeda and like-minded terrorists are not only contrary to what we as a country stand for, they are a distortion of the Islamic tradition itself. Al-Qaeda’s ideology is fundamentally at odds with both classical and contemporary Islamic jurisprudence. That is why the majority of Muslims across the globe reject their ideology.

I believe it is a great shame that the noble Lord has asked this question. It points, at best, to ignorance about Islam, or, at worst, a deliberate attempt to perpetuate a distorted image of the faith. It is particularly sad to see this being done during interfaith week, when we celebrate the important role that faith plays in British society, particularly when different faiths come together. This Government support the role of faith in society. They support people in their right to manifest their faith, to worship freely and to act in the name of their faith for the good of society. They support people to share their faith with others, to change their faith, or, indeed, to have no faith at all. As well as that, they are committed to protecting people from intolerance, discrimination or even persecution on the basis of their faith. We have done more than any other Government to tackle that unacceptable scourge of anti-Muslim hatred. For that, I am proud.

Deep, entrenched anti-Muslim bigotry goes against everything this great nation stands for—the idea that Islam is a particularly violent creed and therefore an irrational reaction to it is somehow appropriate. I am concerned that the deeper Islamophobia seeps into our culture, the easier becomes the task of extremists recruiting. I invite the noble Lord to reflect on this.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, before the noble Baroness sits down, she has not answered the two questions that I put to her. I believe that I am in order to repeat them.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

Will the noble Baroness answer the two questions I put to her?

[Baroness Warsi]

I am coming to that now. I will be answering the noble Lord’s direct questions now. The fact is, British Muslims play a crucial role in British society. Everyone in this house knows Muslims in British life—doctors, engineers, scientists, journalists, MPs, teachers, business people, local councillors and so on. They are all making strong contributions to our country. The citizenship survey of 2010-11 asked whether it is possible to fully belong to Britain and maintain a separate cultural or religious identity. Some 89% of Muslims agreed with that, as opposed to 72% of the general population.

Let me draw the noble Lord’s attention to recent research conducted by ICM, which showed that Muslims are Britain’s top charity givers, topping a poll of religious groups. Muslims who donated to charity last year gave an average of almost £371 each. That is nothing new. The first recorded Englishman to become Muslim was John Nelson, in the 16th century. At the time of the union with Scotland in 1707, Muslims were already in Britain. There are records of Sylhetis working in London restaurants as early as 1873. Noble Lords may also be aware of the recent campaign that the Government launched to highlight the contribution of the nations from the Commonwealth during the First World War. Hundreds of thousands of the 1.2 million who served in the British Indian Army were Muslims. They fought and died for the values and freedoms that we enjoy today.

I turn to the two specific questions asked by the noble Lord, Lord Pearson. He asked about the persecution of Christians and by which particular group it was being conducted. I say this simply: one life taken, one life destroyed, is one life too much. For me, the religion of those communities is absolutely irrelevant.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

With respect, that does not answer the question. The question I put to the noble Baroness was about the persecution of Christians, to which she so bravely referred in Georgetown last Friday. Is it or is it not mostly the work of the jihadists? That was the question I put to her.

[Baroness Warsi]

It was mostly the work of extremists who do not follow any faith, as far as I am concerned. Collective punishment for co-religionists is wrong. That is what I said in Georgetown. Collective requirement of a community to be a constant apologist for its co-religionists is also wrong. As the UK’s first ever Minister for Faith and Communities, it is my job to ensure that freedom of religion and belief remains at the top of the Government’s agenda both at home and internationally.

The US Congress hearing in 2011 about “Islamist terrorism” was described as reality TV and a witchhunt. The White House said that we do not practise guilt by association. The Prime Minister, this Government and I wholeheartedly agree with that. Values such as religious tolerance are not just British. They are universal values that cut across different countries and different faiths. Although, of course, all faiths contribute to the public good, Islam is my religion and I am proud of my beliefs.

I believe that our work in building a society characterised by respect and tolerance is not best served by scare stories stirred up by Parliament or parliamentarians. Those of us who have the privilege to serve in Parliament should use this platform to help to build better relations, to speak not just for those communities and faiths to which we belong but wherever injustice occurs, as I did just a few days ago in Georgetown, when I spoke about the persecution of Christians. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, for his warm words about the speech, and I hope that it inspires him to take a similar approach. Once more, I thank noble Lords for their contributions.

Referendum: European Union

Debate between Lord Pearson of Rannoch and Baroness Warsi

Monday 29th July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Warsi]

My noble friend is aware that the German finance Minister claimed that banking union could not be completed without a change to the treaties and therefore he has proceeded in the way he has. I go back to the general question on this matter, which is that reforms—including in relation to a banking union—can start to happen right now. It is right that we should continue to negotiate a better position for the United Kingdom, always keeping in mind the longer-term view of what more we can negotiate for a position that is better for us within the European Union.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, is there any truth in the rumour that Mrs Merkel has agreed to go along with minimal cosmetic treaty changes in the hope that the British people can be deceived into voting for what will still be a fundamentally unreformed European Union?

[Baroness Warsi]

My Lords, I am not in the habit of commenting on rumour. What I can say is that I am aware that Mrs Merkel is committed to a more competitive and flexible Europe and that in a number of areas we do, in fact, agree.

Violent Extremism

Debate between Lord Pearson of Rannoch and Baroness Warsi

Monday 3rd June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will encourage an international conference of Muslim leaders to address the issue of violent extremism within that religion.

[The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Warsi)]

My Lords, before I answer the noble Lord’s Question, I am sure that I speak for the whole House in offering our condolences to the family and friends of Drummer Rigby. They have handled this horrific tragedy with great dignity and resolve, and our thoughts and prayers are with them.

[Baroness Warsi]

My Lords, this country is resolute in its stand against violent extremism. As the Prime Minister has made clear, there is no religious justification for these acts, and he has stressed that al-Qaeda-inspired terrorism has taken more Muslim lives than any others. We are working with international partners and religious leaders worldwide to combat violent extremism.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for that fairly helpful Answer. I would have thought that, as a Muslim, she is well placed to lead such an initiative. As we think of Drummer Rigby, I ask if the Government are aware that there have been many thousands of fatal Islamist attacks worldwide since 9/11, and that most of the victims have been Muslims? I will put the evidence for that in the Library. Secondly, if Islam is a religion of peace, could not a gathering of grand muftis and others agree to issue a fatwa against the jihadists, so that they are cast out of Islam and are no longer Muslim?

[Baroness Warsi]

My Lords, I take the noble Lord’s point that more Muslims than members of any other community have died at the hands of violent extremism. However, I take issue with some of the noble Lord’s views. I am familiar with his views on Islam and Muslims. He premised the question by saying, “If Islam is a peaceful religion”; the Prime Minister made it abundantly clear that Islam is a religion of peace.

EU: Legislation

Debate between Lord Pearson of Rannoch and Baroness Warsi

Monday 4th February 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Warsi]

This is a very important relationship within the European Union. It is not the kind of thing that can be negotiated overnight. It is right, therefore, that the balance of competences review, which will take place between now and the end of 2014, starts to lay out and consult on those areas on which negotiations can be had. It is right that, if the Conservative Party were to win the next election, we would implement what we will put in our manifesto. We will go to Europe, negotiate and, thereafter, put that matter to the public of this country.

I understand what the noble Lord says about creating uncertainty. However, I am sure he will agree with me that the Europe debate is far and wide in this country. The concept that the British people are happy with the relationship that we have right now with the European Union is false. Therefore, any inward investor knows that this is a debate that is to be had in this country and, more than that, it is important that the people of this country buy into that relationship.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, has the time not come for Her Majesty’s Government to suggest to our European partners that we should all take back full national and monetary independence, that we should all help each other as appropriate and that Brussels should be closed down? If the Minister does not agree with me—I suppose that there is a chance that she may not—can she tell your Lordships what the European Union is now for? What useful things does it do which could not be done better and more cheaply by collaborating democratic governments?

[Baroness Warsi]

I congratulate the noble Lord on being consistent and predictable. I am sure that he will get the answer that I always give him. There are great benefits of our membership of the European Union, both in terms of jobs in relation to inward investment and, of course, the strong collective voice which the European Union provides us in relation to free trade agreements, sanctions and international action.

EU: UK’s National and Trade Interests

Debate between Lord Pearson of Rannoch and Baroness Warsi

Wednesday 16th January 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Warsi]

It may well be that the noble Lord opposite has had sight of the speech and is therefore making judgments based on his opinion of what is in the speech. I await to see what will be in that speech, as do many of us in this House, and I can assure the noble Lord that this Government have done all they can to make sure that when opportunities present themselves, both within the Commonwealth and in the wider world, especially in relation to India, Brazil and China, we have very clearly laid out our store to say that Britain is open for business.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, do the Government agree that we have some 3 million jobs exporting to the European Union but that it has 4.5 million jobs exporting to us? Are we not, in fact, its largest client? When we leave the EU, will it not come running after us for a free trade agreement which suits us at least as well as our present arrangements?

[Baroness Warsi]

The noble Lord always has an interesting take on these matters and is in an interesting position to trade statistics. I can assure him that most Members of this House believe that we are stronger for being within the European Union.

EU: United Kingdom

Debate between Lord Pearson of Rannoch and Baroness Warsi

Monday 26th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, has the noble Baroness read yet another respectable analysis, this time from Professor Tim Congdon, which finds that our EU membership is costing us about 10% of GDP or £150 billion per annum? Is it not now obvious, even to Her Majesty’s Government, that our prosperous future lies outside the EU and free of control from the bloated octopus in Brussels?

[Baroness Warsi]

The noble Lord makes an important point but I do not intend to trade academic reports from the Dispatch Box. However, if he has the time, I shall be happy to give him a briefing on the economic importance of our continued membership of the EU.