Climate Change

Lord Pearson of Rannoch Excerpts

Thursday 25th April 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Parminter]

My Lords—

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords—

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Hill of Oareford)]

My Lords, I am sorry, it should be the noble Lord, Lord Pearson. If we have some quick questions and answers, I hope that we will come back.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

In that case, my Lords, when will the Government listen to the large and growing number of scientists who say that manmade climate change is so small as to be irrelevant? When will they be guided by measurement of what has happened instead of misguided modelling?

[Baroness Verma]

My Lords, we know that there is science out there that tells us climate change is taking place and we really need to take that science very seriously.

European Council

Lord Pearson of Rannoch Excerpts

Monday 11th February 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

On my noble friend’s second question, I will need to see whether I can provide better particulars on how the figures break down, and what the basis is for the speculation that my noble friend saw—whether it is to do with the energy elements of environment funds through the CAP, for example. I am not sure about that, so I will see what I can do. On his general point, I could not agree more. This outcome shows that Britain was far from marginalised and isolated in the negotiations. It also shows that the pessimistic view held by some that Britain is doomed to fail, and therefore should not go into negotiations with a strong position trying to win others round to our point of view, is entirely wrong.

I remember that many years ago when I was working for the then Prime Minister, John Major, there were similar views to the effect that Britain would never be able to win an opt-out of the single currency or an opt-out of the Social Chapter, but in fact those were both successfully achieved. Similarly on this occasion, there were people looking forward with eager anticipation in the expectation that my right honourable friend the Prime Minister would not be able to secure Britain’s interests. In fact, he has; I agree with my noble friend that by being clear in one’s objectives and by assembling alliances—in this case, with the Germans, the Swedes, the Dutch and the Danish—it is perfectly possible for Britain to secure its objectives, and it will continue to be so.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, I hope it will not ruin the Prime Minister’s day if I offer congratulations on a small step in the right direction. However, I think he is going a bit far when he describes the present situation as “a good deal for taxpayers”. Could the noble Lord tell us what this country’s gross and net contributions now become? In 2012, our gross contribution was some £22 billion, of which we got back around £11 billion, so our net contribution was £11 billion a year. That represents the salaries of 1,000 nurses at £30,000 a year every day, which we never see again. Therefore, I still have to query whether this whole arrangement is anything but a disastrous deal for British taxpayers.

More importantly, perhaps, is it true that the European so-called Parliament is going to vote on this new proposal in secret? If so, does that not nicely confirm the nature of this animal? What happens if the EU Parliament votes this down? Do we go back to some 2% inflation per annum for the next seven years? Could he enlighten us on that before we get too overwhelmed by the Prime Minister’s success?

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I shall do my best to calm the House down, my Lords. I noticed that in the space of the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, he went from expressing concern about causing my right honourable friend the Prime Minister an anxiety attack by praising him, to rescinding that praise by the end.

On the cost to the British taxpayer, clearly, so far as the negotiation was concerned, the fact that the Prime Minister managed to end up with a credit card limit that was so many billions of euros lower than had been initially proposed is a cause of some modest satisfaction to the British taxpayer. That cost would have been lower if a chunk of our rebate had not unfortunately been surrendered in those negotiations in 2005 in the hope, as I understand it, that there would then be a deal on the CAP: a deal that has not been forthcoming. That explains why, although the overall figures are considerably lower—and they do represent a real-terms cut, which is what everyone wanted—the cost to the taxpayer is nevertheless higher than one would like.

On the European Parliament, like the noble Lord I have read some of the speculation there has been about that. The European Parliament has a role to play in approving the budget, but our position is that that agreement was struck by the 27 member states that are responsible for finding the money. We believe that some of the situations that the noble Lord has invited me to speculate about will not come to pass, but we need to see what happens. I will not be drawn into his alluring hypothetical situations.

Business of the House

Lord Pearson of Rannoch Excerpts

Thursday 31st January 2013 Lords Chamber

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Hill of Oareford)]

My Lords, first, I should say to my noble friend Lord Steel of Aikwood that I am well aware of the concerns he has expressed for a long time on this issue. Indeed, I was glad to have the opportunity to discuss them with him soon after I took over this post. If the House will allow me, I should say for the record that I am slightly disappointed that, in bringing forward his Motion, my noble friend did not discuss it with my noble friend the Chief Whip in the way that convention suggests. It is important that we observe the conventions because that is how this House operates. I feel that I should bring that to the attention of the House.

On the matters raised by my noble friend Lord Forsyth, we will be discussing those next week and I am sure that we will have a good opportunity to hear a range of views from all sides of the House. On the Government’s position generally on this important issue, that has not changed since the last time it was discussed in this House in terms of both future legislation and the position regarding the appointment of new Peers. As it has always been, it is for the Prime Minister to make recommendations to Her Majesty the Queen. That is how it has always been done in this House by both parties and how it was done with great vigour by Mr Blair. It is the situation that exists now.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, can the noble Lord tell us where the Prime Minister and the Government stand on their commitment to ensure that membership of your Lordships’ House more accurately reflects the votes cast in the previous general election? Does the noble Lord agree that that would give my party, the UK Independence Party, no fewer than 24 Peers, whereas at the moment we have three? Does the Prime Minister stand by this commitment or has he abandoned it?

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

My Lords, I think we all feel that the value we get from the noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch, is worth at least 24 Peers. The position taken by the Government on this is set out clearly and has not changed. The Government’s view is that we should work over time more accurately to reflect the balance of Peers.

EU Council

Lord Pearson of Rannoch Excerpts

Monday 17th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, the Statement brings us the surprising news that the Commission has promised to scrap some of its own regulations that are no longer of use. What is the anticipated timescale and volume of this exercise? Are the Government confident that Brussels is acting in good faith when it makes this promise? What legal mechanisms will function at the national level? Will the Government have any input into this process? Above all, will the Government keep noble Lords up to date as these regulations are scrapped?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch, is entirely right to raise this issue. The best way of keeping both the Government and the European Commission up to the mark is for the noble Lord, as I know he will, to constantly ask questions about how it is going. He asked about timing. I do not think there is a timescale for it. The important change is that in the Council’s conclusions there was an absolute recognition that there are some unnecessary regulations that are no longer needed and need to be scrapped. The noble Lord, Lord Pearson, his friends and many others in the House may start proposing which ones they should be, in which case they should write directly to the Commission.

European Council

Lord Pearson of Rannoch Excerpts

Monday 26th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, that would be very attractive and definitely worth going for. However, I expect that while we might go for, at best, a cut, we may need to settle for, at worst, a real freeze to actual payment levels.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, I press the noble Lord on two agreeable exchanges he had with his noble friends, the noble Lords, Lord Howell and Lord Dholakia. The noble Lord, Lord Howell, agreed that reform of the EU would be a wonderful thing. Does the Leader of the House agree that to get any reform of the European Union, to retrieve a comma from the treaties of Rome, requires unanimity among all 27 members? Secondly, on the claim of the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, that 3 million jobs depend on our membership of the European Union, I thought that we had killed this old chestnut some years ago. Does the Leader of the House agree that we do indeed have 3 million jobs, making and exporting things to clients within the European Union, but they have 4.5 million jobs making and exporting things to us and we are in fact their largest client? Were we to leave the European Union, there is no prospect of any of our jobs being lost. On the contrary, millions of jobs would be created because we would be set free from the clutches of this corrupt octopus.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I do not think that the noble Lord has slain this particular chestnut, if that is not mixing my metaphors too much. The fact is that an enormous amount of jobs in this country are linked to our membership of the EU through exports to the EU. However, the noble Lord may wish to take heart that, despite tough conditions, British exports of goods have increased in the past two years to China by 72%, to India by 94% and to Russia by 109%. So we can get the best of all worlds: we can have rising exports, better trade within the single market and better trade with the rest of the world.

I think that my noble friend—I am sorry, the noble Lord, Lord Pearson—

House of Lords Reform Bill

Lord Pearson of Rannoch Excerpts

Wednesday 27th June 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I think the whole House would agree that the noble Lord looks to be in robust health and I wish him continuation of that for very many long years. The line he takes is the point made by the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries. It is our view that non-party political Members will be appointed. There may be a case for saying that former eminent politicians who have no interest in continuing a party political role could be selected by the Statutory Appointments Commission, but it is a statutory commission and not one which is guided by party politicians.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, why did the Government ask Her Majesty the Queen to appoint a record number of new life Peers, all of whom are of course personally very welcome, so that we now have a record number of some 660 life Peers? Why did they do that when they were already planning to reduce us so drastically, perhaps to some 300? What has the Government’s logic been in this process?

[Lord Strathclyde]

I do not think that there is any difference. We decided there should be a transition arrangement over three parliamentary terms. That will give the existing House, including any new Peers appointed since 2010, the opportunity to remain here until 2025 if they survive that long and if they survive the process of transition.

Procedure of the House

Lord Pearson of Rannoch Excerpts

Monday 26th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Noble Lords]

Hear, hear.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, I have an interest in the subject raised by the noble Lord, Lord Tebbit, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman. It is not true that the Prime Minister responded to my Questions and those of the noble Lord, Lord Tebbit, with something irrelevant. I think that the noble Lord, Lord Tebbit, said, “Blah, blah, blah”. The answer to me was that, whatever the Government committed themselves to in this matter, it would be the Prime Minister who decided—full stop. That is where we stood with Written Answers last week.

[Lord Marlesford]

My Lords, I would never presume to call myself a politician. I suppose that, if anything, I am an observer of politics who occasionally commentates on it. In the 16 years that I was the lobby correspondent for the Economist, from 1975 to 1991, the House of Commons did not have a guillotine as routine, and again and again I saw its effect as an exceptional measure. It was something that the Government of the day considered very carefully. I saw the good effect that it had on the process of negotiation and the scrutiny of legislation, and the extent to which it resulted in better outcomes of that legislation. However, I was shocked when Mr Tony Blair’s Government introduced the guillotine as a regular feature and I was disappointed when my right honourable friend the Prime Minister perpetuated it. I found myself asking: if we were to have an elected Senate here, how long would it be before the guillotine was introduced here and then who would scrutinise the Executive?

Liaison Committee: Third Report

Lord Pearson of Rannoch Excerpts

Monday 26th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, it will not come as a surprise to the House to hear that I fear that the Liaison Committee has got the importance of our European committees badly out of focus.

It is welcome that the European committees have been cut from eight—seven plus one—to one and six sub-committees. However, that still leaves 84 Members of your Lordships’ House on the sub-committees, a further 14 on the main committee, with the result that the time of 98 of your Lordships is taken by the European Select Committee. I have mentioned this before. There is a long series of Questions from the noble Lords, Lord Tebbit and Lord Vinson, answered by the Government, which show that the European Committee has virtually no influence on the legislation that comes to us from Brussels. As your Lordships know, that is quite a substantial proportion of our general legislation and easily the majority of—

[Lord Sewel]

There is the vexatious question of the reform of the common fisheries policy. Has the noble Lord looked at the Green Paper that the Fisheries Commissioner has published? Is he aware that it borrows—I dare not use the word “plagiarises”—significantly from the report of the committee of this House?

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, I understand that the decision of the European Commission to review the common fisheries policy is due more to the series on television by Mr Fearnley-Whittingstall than to your Lordships’ Select Committee. And anyway, we await reform of the common fisheries policy, as we have for the past 30 years.

I do not want to turn this into a debate on the pluses and minuses of the European Union, but I want to explain to your Lordships why seven European committees is still far too many. I referred to the series of Questions from the noble Lords, Lord Tebbit and Lord Vinson, the answers to which show that the Select Committee has had virtually no influence on legislation coming to us from Brussels. That is not surprising. Your Lordships may be aware of the process of European legislation, which is proposed in secret by the Commission, negotiated in secret in COREPER and passed in secret in the Council. There is nothing that your Lordships’ House or the other place can do when it has gone through that process.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick]

I hesitate to interrupt the noble Lord when he is in full flight on one of his well chosen paths, but I wonder how on earth he thinks that a government reply to another Member of this House can demonstrate that the influence of the committee and its sub-committees is nil. Of course, the noble Lord wants that to be the answer; of course, he wants there to be a reduction in the sub-committees and the committee to ensure that we do not scrutinise the European Union properly, because he wants to strengthen the argument to leave the European Union. However, it would be quite nice if we could address the subject before the House, which is the matter of the Liaison Committee’s report, and could above all face the fact that the European Committee deals with a core function that is not dealt with by any other committee or by the House as a whole. If you reduce that core function, you reduce the effectiveness of how we scrutinise this work. I wish that the noble Lord would take account of that instead of arguing the contrary.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, I was about to explain to your Lordships why that core function is pointless compared to the work that the other Select Committees do in this House—and we have heard of powerful examples from the Science and Technology Committee. All the other committees are taken very seriously in this country and worldwide, whereas the debates of the European Committee in your Lordships’ House are ill attended and do nothing to inform public opinion about how the European Union works—and its membership, as I have said again and again, is solidly Europhile. We have just had two interventions to prove that.

The noble Lord, Lord Roper, has told us that the committee scrutinises very effectively European legislation. It writes to Ministers. But your Lordships will be aware of the scrutiny reserve, an agreement whereby successive Governments have given an assurance, although it is not a legal assurance, to both Houses of Parliament that if a piece of legislation is under scrutiny the Government of the day will not sign up to it in Brussels unless that committee agrees. Written Answers from the Government show that that has been overridden hundreds of times in the past 10 years—I think it is 343 times in the past five years.

I mention all this only to show that we put all this effort into the European Union committees and get very little out of them. I am sorry to offend noble and Europhile Lords, and I hope that the House does not think that I am banging on again about Europe. But hearing the comments about the eminent scientists in this Room who have spoken only for the Science and Technology Committee, and looking at the other committees, which are full of expertise and widely respected in the country and internationally, I fear that we have the balance wrong. Two or three European committees, including the main one, would be quite enough. We should redirect those energies into committees that will serve the House and the country well.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I hear the debate that we have had this evening but I have to say that I support the recommendations from the Liaison Committee, which closely follow the proposals from the report of the Leader’s Group. I warmly welcome the recommendation that two new cross-cutting and ad hoc committees should be set up, although my preference would have been for an appointment of two and a half years to enable the committees themselves to deliberate on the subjects of the report and to enable the committees to follow up the conclusions of the report, as the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, suggested.

I also welcome the proposals on pre-legislative and post-legislative scrutiny, which I believe to be extremely important. If there is to be new draft legislation on adoption, as suggested by the Prime Minister, I would be grateful for an assurance from the Chairman of Committees that it will not be introduced until the post-legislative scrutiny has been concluded.

The decisions regarding the European Committee and the Science and Technology Committee were not easy. In fact, they were extremely difficult. There were hard choices, and it is never a good time to bring about change. Of course, many noble Lords are concerned that, by reducing the number of European sub-committees from seven to six, we are diminishing the importance that this House rightly gives to proper scrutiny of EU documents and proposals, and diminishes our standing as a House of expertise. However, like the noble Lord, Lord Bowness, I am confident that the excellent and much needed scrutiny will continue with six sub-committees and a slightly larger membership, if the committees wish to enlarge.

The noble Lord is, of course, correct, as is my noble friend Lord Grenfell, in saying that it is the Government who are responsible for extending the membership of this House, while it is we in this House who have to deal with the financial consequences, which means reorganising the committees of this House. The work of the committee is held in the highest regard by parliaments and decision-makers in Europe and the wider world, and I know that this will continue to be the case. I disagree fundamentally with the noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch. I am completely aware of the process of policy-making in the European Union, and I know just how influential the reports are both inside and outside the institutions. Likewise, the work of the Science and Technology Committee—

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

Would the noble Baroness not just sail over it? Would she care to comment on the override by the Government of hundreds of scrutiny reserves in the past few years?

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I would not care to comment on that at the moment, but I am grateful for the invitation from the noble Lord. I was going to say how much the House as a whole rightly regards the work of the Science and Technology Committee. Clearly, the breadth of knowledge inside that committee, along with the understanding and the influence of the reports, is phenomenal, and I am sure that that will continue. However, as the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, said, resources are scarce. Throughout our deliberations in the committee, I have argued for additional resources to be made available for an additional committee, and I will continue to make that argument in the coming year, so that when we have deliberations at this time next year, I may well be able to argue in favour of more work for the Science and Technology Committee. The noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, made a very good speech here and in Committee, and I have supported him in his arguments throughout. However, I support the report from the committee that is before us today, and I urge the whole House to adopt it. Should there be a vote, I wish to make it clear that the people on my Benches will have a free vote.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Winston]

I wonder if the noble Lord might be prepared to withdraw that remark about the “massed ranks”. It seems contemptuous of the serious point that we as scientists are trying to put to the House of Lords.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

Would the noble Lord also refer to the massed ranks of europhiles who came to the defence of those committees?

[The Chairman of Committees]

My Lords, I certainly was not trying to be contemptuous of the noble Lord, Lord Winston—rather the opposite; I was impressed by the number of scientists who had spoken. I am sorry that the noble Lord misunderstood me, or maybe I did not express myself well.

As the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, said, it is a question of resources. We cannot continue to spend more and more money. In this report we have recommended one additional unit of committee activity—I know that the noble Lord, Lord Grenfell, does not like that phrase but it describes rather well what we do—and the noble Lord, Lord Filkin, mentioned how we had followed the recommendations of the Goodlad committee. We are going to have two pre-legislative scrutiny committees, one more than we have at the moment; one post-legislative scrutiny committee—I take the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, about adoption, and obviously if something develops on that we can review the subject later on—and two brand new ad hoc committees on topical subjects. I think that that is what the House wanted. It would be even better if we could just go on with the old committees as well, but it would be irresponsible of our committee to continually recommend more and more.

On the point about the European Union Committee, we will still have six sub-committees and a main committee so there will be seven committees in action in that area. They will still be better resourced than most, if not all, such sub-committees in other EU national parliaments.

We were grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Roper, for coming to see us and explaining things. We had intended to be helpful in telling him roughly what we thought, and we had intended that he would therefore know what to expect and what to argue. We also did not want committees to plan work beyond the end of the Session that they would then have to alter. Indeed, the noble Lord persuaded us not to reduce the size of the EU Committee to five but to keep it at six. I had thought that it was the European Union Committee’s desire that the membership of the sub-committees should go up from 12 to 14; that is the impression that we on the committee were given. If that is not the case, though, it is only—

European Union (Definition of Treaties) (Republic of Korea Free Trade Agreement) Order 2011

Lord Pearson of Rannoch Excerpts

Wednesday 11th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Perhaps I may slot into the minds of Members what could be a long-term solution. It is for us to reclaim our underground car park across the road, which we own, and build a tunnel which links the House to that car park.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, I am sure this has already occurred to any would-be terrorist, but what do the security arrangements of the House do about the river and the boats that go up and down it? My friend hired one of those boats the other day and was free to take suitcases on and off as she wished. If we cannot do anything about that, why do we carry on making entrance to this place more complicated and inconvenient?

[Lord Strathclyde]

I am not sure that the Floor of the House is the best place to discuss matters affecting the safety and security of the House.

In answer to the noble Lord, Lord Peston, nothing I said in my earlier reply was supposed to be discourteous to the noble Lord, Lord Barnett. This House is self-regulating. The decision was taken by various committees of the House that would not have been able to do so without its agreement. Perhaps the review could be done more quickly than in three months. Those noble Lords who have suggestions and ideas as to how we could improve the situation should write to Black Rod—or, indeed, raise it in their party meetings, which might be a better place than having a debate in this House.

European Union (Definition of Treaties) (Republic of Korea Framework Agreement) Order 2012

Lord Pearson of Rannoch Excerpts

Wednesday 21st December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Grocott]

My Lords, we are being asked to approve en bloc 11 Motions relating to individual cities in the United Kingdom and to agree that they should be sent to Grand Committee. I will certainly not go into the merits of directly elected mayors. Although I am opposed to them, obviously I acknowledge that they were introduced under the previous Government. Surely the fact that it is the Leader who is proposing that the orders should go to Grand Committee—that is relatively unusual; it would normally come from the departmental Minister—is an acknowledgement of what I believe to be the case: namely, that this is a fairly significant constitutional change affecting the way in which our country is run. Eleven major cities are to hold referenda on the future structure of their local government. That alone ought to justify my request that the usual channels consider whether it is proper that this should be debated in Grand Committee or whether constitutional issues of this sort should be debated on the Floor of the House.

Individually, the orders may not be of tremendous interest to all noble Lords across the House; but collectively, all the cities represent a big proportion of the population of the country. In terms of public expenditure at this time, I would imagine that if I knocked on 100 doors in the West Midlands, where I live, and asked people whether it was a good idea to spend a fair bit of money on a referendum on the structure of their local government, the answer would probably be a universal no. We should air these issues on the Floor of the House and not in Grand Committee, and I appeal to the noble Lord to reconsider this. I am not asking noble Lords to vote on it, but perhaps the noble Lord would reconsider it in the spirit of Christmas that we keep referring to. Could he just once say yes to me?

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, why are the Government so keen on all these referendums on the comparatively minor matter of who becomes the mayor in these cities while they refuse a referendum on the far greater issue of whether we stay in the clutches of the corrupt octopus in Brussels or leave them?

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)]

My Lords, in reply to the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, it is entirely in keeping with normal practice that I as Leader of the House should move these Motions. Secondly, I would not have put them on the Order Paper unless they had been agreed with the usual channels with their wholehearted support. Thirdly—this is perhaps a point for the whole House to remember—although these Motions are debated in the Grand Committee, they come back to the House for agreement and they do not come into law until that time.

As for the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, in the spirit of Christmas, it is always good to hear him. I hope he has a very quiet and restful time over the next two or three weeks, and if he wishes to have an even longer restful and quiet time, I am sure that would be appreciated by most of us, particularly those who work on European business.

Motions agreed.