Palestinian Territories: Development Support
Debate between Lord Pannick and Baroness Chapman of Darlington
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
I recognise and commend the work that the noble Lord does to bring about a future for the people of Israel and the people of Palestine. He knows and I know—and I think there is broad agreement—that the right future here is for a two-state solution. Our view is that the best way to bring that about, or when that does happen, is for there to be a Palestinian Authority that has the capacity and capability to be able to run the future state in a way that we would all wish to see.
The points that the noble Lord raises about textbooks are valid. That is one reason why we want to work with the Palestinian Authority to reform how this is done—and there are other issues, too, which I am sure will be raised in this exchange.
On the issue of food, I am glad that the noble Lord has been, and I am glad that he saw some aid trucks going in. However, the sad truth of this is that what is going in is a very small fraction of what is needed. More than 2,000 people have been killed trying to access aid through the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation; it is failing to deliver aid in the volume needed. The IPC has now designated famine, and we expect that thousands of children will die in the coming months unless the levels of aid are dramatically increased. I know that that is what the noble Lord wants to see as well—nobody in this Chamber is arguing that that is an acceptable situation. What we have to do is to work out how to persuade the Government of Israel, who are the only people who are able to allow that aid in, to get the aid, the medical supplies, the people and the water to where it is needed to save those lives, and that must be done immediately.
Lord Pannick (CB)
My Lords, today is the 695th day in captivity of the hostages taken on 7 October. Do the Government accept that there can be no progress in addressing the tragedy of Gaza unless and until all those hostages, and the dead bodies retained by Hamas, are returned to Israel?
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
I cannot see a situation where there is any kind of peace, lasting or otherwise, that comes about without the release of those hostages. What their families have been forced to endure for far too long is unimaginable for many of us. Many of us here have met the families of those hostages. Thank goodness some of them have been released, but, as the noble Lord says, many have not. We call on anybody who has any ability to help to bring it about that those people are released and tragically, in too many cases, that their bodies are returned, and for that to happen immediately.
Gaza: Humanitarian Situation
Debate between Lord Pannick and Baroness Chapman of Darlington(7 months ago)
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Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
It is important to remember that our priority is to get the food, medicine and shelter to the people in Gaza who need it—most of all the children—but every day that is lost in education is a barrier to that community being able to support itself and to prosper and thrive. The only way that peace can be achieved is with a secure Israel and a prosperous Gaza. This seems such a long way from where we are. The noble Baroness is right to remind us that the need to get food and medicine in should go alongside the need for education. It seems very difficult from where we are, but it is important that we do not lose sight of the needs of young people to have the education that is their right.
Lord Pannick (CB)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for her very sensitive response to these extremely difficult problems. I know that a number of other noble Lords share my concerns as to how the Government will ensure that the much-needed reconstruction aid for Gaza is not appropriated by Hamas or other military groups to use to prepare for further attacks on Israel.
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
Of course this is a concern. We want all the aid that we and others provide to go to those people who need it so desperately. How we can make sure of anything is a very interesting proposition when it comes to Gaza. We will do everything we can, working through partners. We think that the best way to do this is through UNRWA. If there are other ways then we must use whatever we can find. As reconstruction begins—which we hope will be soon—it is important that this is done responsibly and sustainably so that the peace we may be about to achieve can last.
Gaza: Humanitarian Situation
Debate between Lord Pannick and Baroness Chapman of Darlington(7 months, 4 weeks ago)
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Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
I am grateful to the noble Baroness. We were quick to reinstate aid to UNRWA. She is quite correct to point out that October and November 2024 were the worst months since 2023 for access to Gaza. The success—if I can put it that way—of the polio vaccination programme shows that access can be achieved. When it can be facilitated, it can be used to good effect and can save lives. We urge the Israeli Government to allow the international community, we think through UNRWA—if there is another viable way of doing this, we would be interested, but our assessment is that there is no viable alternative to UNRWA at this time—to have that access, so that the protection from the weather, the food and the medicine that are so urgently needed can be provided.
Lord Pannick (CB)
My Lords, have the Government made an assessment of how much of the large quantities of aid entering Gaza is being stolen by Hamas, either for its own purposes or for sale on the black market at grossly inflated prices, to the enormous detriment of the people of Gaza?
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
My Lords, the situation here is desperate and urgent. Although I have no doubt that the things the noble Lord describes, highlights and brings to this Chamber’s attention do happen, I point out that we are in a situation where there is a humanitarian catastrophe, where 90% of the population has been displaced—sometimes multiple times—and where half the identified bodies are women and children. So our priority at this time is for de-escalation of the conflict, yes, but also to meet the urgent humanitarian need.
Middle East Update
Debate between Lord Pannick and Baroness Chapman of Darlington(1 year ago)
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Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
My Lords, the situation in Gaza is horrifying and we are all appalled by the scale of civilian casualties. From the Prime Minister down, we have repeatedly urged Israel to improve aid access, minimise civilian casualties and engage seriously with negotiations for that ceasefire deal. Our priority remains achieving a ceasefire in Gaza that will see the hostages released.
The UK is also deeply concerned by the ongoing IDF military operation in the occupied West Bank, while recognising Israel’s need to defend itself against security threats. We are deeply worried by the methods that have been deployed and by reports of casualties and the destruction of infrastructure.
Lord Pannick (CB)
My Lords, will the Minister address one of the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, in his compelling observations? If it is really necessary and appropriate to make a gesture of this sort—and it is no more than a gesture—is it not remarkably insensitive and, indeed, insulting to our democratic ally to do so on the very day when Israel is burying hostages who were detained for 11 months in appalling conditions and then brutally murdered in cold blood by Hamas?
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
The noble Lord is right in what he says about the brutal murder in cold blood by Hamas, and we deplore it. The timing of this was purely a consequence of the legal process that the Foreign Secretary completed, yesterday being the first day that Parliament sat. He was obliged to report his decision to Parliament at the earliest opportunity.
International Anti-Corruption Court
Debate between Lord Pannick and Baroness Chapman of Darlington(1 year ago)
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Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
The noble Lord’s question highlights the diverse nature of the issues we face. We are looking at kleptocracy and, as he references, tax evasion; we are also looking at proceeds of crime and unexplained wealth. There are very many strands to this, and I welcome his invitation to consider them in a rather more holistic way. This is perhaps a good time to remind noble Lords about the vigour the Foreign Secretary, Home Secretary and Chancellor are determined to use to tackle these issues in a more rounded and holistic way.
Lord Pannick (CB)
My Lords, the Minister needs to bear in mind that the poor performance of the International Court of Justice and the International Criminal Court means that many of us do not have great enthusiasm for the creation of another international court.
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
I take my noble friend’s point; I have heard him say such things in this Chamber on many occasions in the past. We need as many tools in our toolbox as we can assemble. However, unless we get the building blocks in place—in terms of international agreements and agreed principles and other nations’ domestic processes—then a court will be less likely to be successful than if we are to get those building blocks in place first.