Inheritance Tax: Cohabiting Siblings
Lord Pannick Excerpts(1 year, 5 months ago)
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Baroness Penn (Con)
My Lords, it is important to set this Question in context. Each individual has a nil rate band of £325,000. Two cohabiting siblings who jointly own a house may have an inheritance tax liability only when the value of the house exceeds £650,000—well in excess of both the average UK house price and the average London house price. There are also circumstances in which inheritance tax can be paid over a period of time, giving the beneficiaries time to adjust to changed circumstances. That facility would enable people in those circumstances to remain in their home, which I believe is the concern at the heart of my noble friend’s Question.
Lord Pannick (CB)
My Lords, I declare an interest in that I acted for the two Misses Burden, who unsuccessfully challenged this policy in the European court in 2008. This is not a question of law but a question of fairness. How can it be fair for two elderly sisters who have lived together for the whole of their lives, jointly own their property and have each made wills leaving the property to each other on the death of the first to be denied a tax benefit enjoyed by married couples and civil partners who may have a far less committed, developed and permanent relationship, or does fairness not count in the implementation of the tax system?
Baroness Penn (Con)
My Lords, the Government have attempted to draw up a system that is fair but recognises the unique status of marriage and civil partnerships. As I pointed out to your Lordships’ House, very few estates fall subject to inheritance tax, and we have put in place processes to ensure that those who live in the same house, for example, are able to meet their obligations over time, to lessen the impact of inheritance tax.
Assisted Dying Bill [HL]
Lord Pannick Excerpts(10 years ago)
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Lord Pannick
Lord Pannick (CB)
My Lords, it is a privilege to open the Committee stage of this important Bill, the significance of which is demonstrated by the very large number of your Lordships who are present today. The Second Reading debate on the Bill was commended by many observers outside the House as illustrating the expert scrutiny that this House applies to legislative proposals, and I am confident that your Lordships will demonstrate again today the enormous value of this House.
In the first group I shall speak to Amendments 1, 4 and 24, which are in my name and those of the noble Baronesses, Lady Neuberger, Lady Mallalieu and Lady Shackleton of Belgravia. I shall speak briefly because we have much business to get through. I support the Bill, but I think that adequate safeguards are essential. It would be improved, and some of those who are concerned about it may be reassured, if judicial safeguards were to be added.
These amendments would require that the person concerned must satisfy a judge of the Family Division of the High Court that they have made a voluntary, clear, settled and informed wish to end their life. Judges of the Family Division already decide the most profound questions of life and death. Can doctors separate two Siamese twins, knowing that one will die but that the operation is necessary to save the life of the other? Should the life support system be turned off for Tony Bland, a victim of the Hillsborough disaster who was in a persistent vegetative state? Judges already decide these questions of life and death—and, tragically, there are many of them—in a principled manner but also with great compassion, and, where necessary, they decide them speedily.
In the Nicklinson case, decided in our Supreme Court in June—I declare an interest because I represented the organisation Dignity in Dying—some of the judges suggested that a judicial safeguard for assisted dying would be appropriate and would provide greater protection for the vulnerable than they have under the present law. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Neuberger, the President of the Supreme Court, said at paragraph 108 of his judgment, that less protection for the vulnerable is provided by the current system of a lawyer from the DPP’s office inquiring after the event into the motives of the person who provided the assistance, and whether the individual concerned was voluntarily ending their life, than under a new law that would require a judge to be,
“satisfied in advance that someone has a voluntary, clear, settled and informed wish to die and for his or her suicide then to be organised in an open and professional way”.
The noble and learned Lord, Lord Wilson, at paragraph 205, and the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Hale, at paragraphs 314 to 316, spoke to similar effect. I respectfully agree with them, and I hope that your Lordships will too. Amendments 1, 4 and 24 would provide for these judicial safeguards. I beg to move.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)
My Lords, I express my gratitude to everybody who has contributed to this short debate. It has been an excellent debate. I completely agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Winston, said: there should be a proper and full debate, because the sorts of decisions that this House has got to make are extremely grave.
I think that the issues in this short debate can be divided into effectively two: should we have any court-driven process to give greater protection; and if we should, what should that court-driven process be? The noble Baroness, Lady Wheatcroft, put most clearly the view that there should not be any court-driven process because it might deprive some people of the opportunity to use the Bill. The fear of going to court, the expense of going to court and how they feel at the time might well be a barrier. I am very conscious of that argument—from time to time, it has been high in the mind of many people—but my own view, having heard the debate at Second Reading, having heard the debate here and having spoken widely to people who might be involved in the decision, is that what would give much greater confidence regarding the Bill would be some sort of judicial process that raised the minimum barrier to people using the Bill but provided protection.
In the course of this debate, people have sought to say, “Well, it’s got to be the judges and not the doctors”. I think that it has got to be both, because you cannot even get to the judge unless two doctors have indicated that the person is terminally ill and, as far as they are concerned, the person has a firm and settled view to do it. However, I do not think that one can leave it to doctors alone, in particular to form two views: first, on whether it is the voluntary, clear, settled and informed wish that somebody wishes to end their own life; and, secondly, whether they have the capacity. I have been worried about whether the courts could deal with this quickly enough, but I have looked quite deeply into that. I am very influenced by points of the sort that the noble Lord, Lord Ribeiro, made. I think he will agree that the blood transfusion cases to which he referred are inevitably incredibly urgent, and the court could deal with them. The noble Lord, Lord Patel, referred me, not in the debate but separately, to the emergency caesarean section cases. Again, they are urgent. The noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, who has experience in this matter, spoke very persuasively of the speed with which the courts can deal with such cases, and the conjoined twins case was done very quickly.
I am worried about the costs issues. The noble Lord, Lord Faulks, gave some reassurance by referring to the exceptional funding. I cannot imagine a more grave decision than one such as this, and I hope that well meaning people in the Government would make sure that it applied to it.
In principle, therefore, I think that judicial process, although it may deter some people, will ultimately give greater protection. Which of the two options should one choose? Under the Lord Pannick option, if I may call it that, one could get the prescription,
“only if the High Court … by order, confirms that it is satisfied that the person … has a voluntary, clear, settled and informed wish to end his or her own life”.
That means that the High Court will have to decide whether the person has voluntarily decided to do this, which means that there is no coercion. In addition, the court has to be satisfied that the person has the capacity to make the decision. So it will be a primary decision for the courts.
In addition to those requirements, the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, says that the court can allow this to happen only if it is satisfied that the person is suffering what is the equivalent of “torture”—that would satisfy Article 3—and that not to allow it would be a breach of their Article 8 rights. I respectfully submit that those are very high hurdles and are utterly inappropriate to a Bill that basically says, “Your free will should determine it”, but I completely adopt what the noble Lord, Lord Reid, said about free will, properly examined, as being right.
This is a very difficult issue and the main one that we have got to decide today. I have heard what the noble Lords, Lord Phillips and Lord Campbell-Savours, said. They asked whether we could find an alternative, perhaps the magistrates or a committee of well meaning people in the community. Honestly, those ideas sound great, but they just will not work. I think that you need the highest-quality judges to decide these issues, and I do not think that the proposals being made there are really sensible.
People have said, “Let us not have votes today”. I think that we should resolve this issue today. We have had a very full debate. It is a matter for the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, whether he wishes to divide the House, but I am strongly of the view that we have debated this long enough. We have debated it very fully today, and very fully at Second Reading. My position is that I accept the arguments made, that there needs to be some degree of additional oversight. I believe that the proposal made by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, is the right one, and I think that the time has come for this House to make up its mind on this very important issue.
Lord Pannick
My Lords, it has been a valuable and informed debate on the most profound moral issues. Like the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, I of course respect what the noble Baroness, Lady Wheatcroft, says—that people who wish to end their life should not be impeded by a legal procedure. However, I think that the judicial safeguards, as so many of your Lordships have said today, are essential to protecting vulnerable people, which was one of the main concerns expressed at Second Reading. A judicial process will also bring home to the individual seeking assistance to end their life the gravity of the decision they are taking. A judicial process will also assist the doctor, as the noble Lord, Lord Ribeiro, pointed out. The noble Lord, Lord Tebbit, in his moving speech—
Lord Mawhinney
I am grateful to the noble Lord. I am one of those who was against the Bill, but I am being persuaded that there is a court role that might go a considerable way to being helpful to the outcome of this legislation. There were a number of suggestions that, rather than going to a vote in Committee, it would be helpful if the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, with the noble Lords, Lord Pannick, Lord Carlile of Berriew, and others, sat down to see whether it would be possible to produce an amendment on Report which did not require all of us to be legal experts and have read paragraph 205, but which showed a degree of continuity and cohesion among those who have led the House to this position. Would the noble Lord be willing to put off a vote until Report so that such conversations could prior take place?
Lord Pannick
I am grateful to the noble Lord, but my position is exactly the same as that of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer. The amendment is not legalistic. It says that the judge of the Family Division of the High Court should ask himself or herself whether the person concerned has made,
“a voluntary, clear, settled and informed”,
decision. They seem the right criteria. With respect to the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, I have not heard any convincing argument as to why the criteria should be more onerous—that the person concerned should be able to proceed along this route only if a further criterion is satisfied. Indeed, the addition of further criteria seems contrary to the valuable purposes of the Bill: to give effect to the autonomy of the individual.
Lord Carlile of Berriew
Does the noble Lord not think on reflection that Report stage on a Bill of this kind is an extremely important stage for your Lordships’ House? Does he not think that it would be far better for your Lordships to discuss and reflect so that when we come to Report we are able to make a considered decision in which even those of us who feel strongly about these issues will understand the essential need to be prepared to compromise, through a proper discussion reflective on the debate of the past two hours? In that context, I am certainly not going to vote on any of these amendments either way. I invite the noble Lord to reflect for one moment on what has just been said. I think that others may well agree.
Lord Pannick
Of course I reflect on what the noble Lord says, not least because I have great admiration and respect for him. However, he will know, as will as any other Member of this House, that we often vote on issues of principle in Committee. If there were an issue that could be resolved by further analysis and debate then I would see the force of the point.
Lord Harries of Pentregarth
There are some issues that need to be further clarified. The noble Lord, Lord Carlile, has a whole range of amendments going into more detail about what his proposal would actually mean in practice. The House has not had a chance to hear those amendments, which I think will go some way to addressing the point that the noble Lord made against the point that the hurdle was too high. I very much support those who urge that the noble Lord should get together with the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, to see whether there is some more common ground.
Lord Cormack
What can possibly be lost by having further conversation and discussion? If the amendment is put to the vote and is carried, other amendments cannot then be discussed because a number of them will fall by the wayside. That is not going to assist our progress in having a full-ranging discussion. I would beg the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, not to press his amendment today so that discussions can take place. I make this suggestion, as I did in my speech, in a wholly constructive manner. I would beg of the noble Lord to heed that, because pre-empting other amendments is not the best way of taking this forward.
Lord Pannick
I am grateful to all noble Lords who have put to me pleas, begging—or however it is put—and I do take them very seriously indeed. However, it seems to me that after two hours we have had a very considerable debate on an issue of principle relating to the Bill. There is widespread agreement that there should be a judicial protection included in the Bill. As I understand it, only two real concerns have been expressed. The noble Lord, Lord Carlile, has suggested that the protections in my amendment are not sufficiently robust. With great respect, I do not accept that. The other objection raised is that it should not be judges of the Family Division who hear this. I think that this is so grave an issue that it is right and appropriate that the judicial protection is at that level. As the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, will confirm from her experience, there is nothing formal about the Family Division in appropriate cases. Judges hear the disputes around the bedside of the patient when necessary.
The noble Lord, Lord Tebbit, in his moving speech, was concerned about wrongdoing. I say that if the judge is satisfied on hearing evidence that the decision is,
“voluntary, clear, settled and informed”,
by a person who has capacity, then the noble Lord’s concerns about wrongdoing will be met. It is time that we came to decision on this matter of principle, encouraged as I am by what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, says. I willingly give way.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)
I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, for giving way. We have had a wide-ranging discussion. I felt that we were at the point of getting people to come round a table to find a solution. Like others, I am concerned about this process, but I respectfully state that I do not believe that we have heard the full debate. Other amendments in the next group in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, will expand on what he has proposed, and they have not had a fair hearing. I fear that to vote now may force the House to amend the amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, at Report. If that is what he wants, I am concerned about that. The House’s debate to date has been balanced and careful. I do not understand what is to be gained by having a vote now, rather than going through the issues, because we agreed that a lot in the Bill needs to be debated and sorted out. I state clearly that I am not aware of any wrecking amendments; the debate has been extremely informed.
Lord Pannick
I am not suggesting for a moment that anyone has proposed wrecking amendments, but I certainly do not accept that the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, has not had a fair hearing. He made a speech of 15 minutes or so—most appropriately—in which he set out his case, and the House has heard the arguments for and against. I do not think that there is anything unfair or unbalanced about putting to the opinion of the House an issue of principle so that we can make progress. I wish to test the opinion of the House.
Lord Pannick
“(2) Subsection (1) applies only if the High Court (Family Division), by order, confirms that it is satisfied that the person—
(a) has a voluntary, clear, settled and informed wish to end his or her own life;(b) has made a declaration to that effect in accordance with section 3; and(c) on the day the declaration is made—(i) is aged 18 or over; and(ii) has the capacity to make the decision to end his or her own life; and(iii) has been ordinarily resident in England and Wales for not less than one year.”
Terrorist Asset-Freezing etc. Bill [HL]
Lord Pannick Excerpts(14 years ago)
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Lord Pannick
My Lords, to achieve its purpose this Bill needs to confer powers in relation both to persons and to assets within the jurisdiction. I understood the Minister to assure the House on Report that the Bill, as currently drafted, covers both categories of case. I do not understand that to involve extra-territorial effect, although the descriptive term may be less significant than the substance. My concern is where we find in the Bill a clear statement to the effect that a person may be the subject of a designation order because he has assets in this country even though he otherwise has no connection with this country. I hope the Government will give further thought to that matter as the Bill proceeds through the other place.
Baroness Hamwee
My Lords, I cannot bring the same academic knowledge to this debate as the noble and learned Lord and the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, but I start with the question of what this Bill aims to achieve and what it is directed at. As I understand it, it deals with assets that are in the UK. For me, other questions flow from that. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, that if there is a query over the scope of the Bill, it should be clarified. One would hope not to have an argument such as this repeated either in the other place or, indeed, in court. However, having been involved with this Bill and its predecessor, I do not have the anxieties that have been expressed this afternoon.
Terrorist Asset-Freezing etc. Bill [HL]
Lord Pannick Excerpts(14 years ago)
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Lord Sassoon
My Lords, these amendments relate to the requirement on the Treasury, where an interim or final designation expires or is varied or revoked, to take such steps as it considers appropriate to bring that fact to the attention of those informed of the interim or final designation.
When the Bill was being discussed before the Committee of the whole House, the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, expressed concern that the wording of what are now Clauses 8(2)(b) and 9(2)(b), which make provision for the duration, variation and revocation of interim designations, did not hold the Treasury to a sufficiently high standard, as it was open to it to consider, in its own subjective determination, the steps to be taken to inform those informed of an interim designation of the expiry, variation or revocation of the interim designation.
We agree that it is important that persons informed of an interim designation are also informed of an expiration, variation or revocation of that designation and, on reflection, we believe that it is appropriate to make express provision in the Bill for the Treasury to be required to take reasonable steps to notify such persons. Furthermore, the same standard should be applied to the steps that the Treasury must take to inform persons of the expiry, variation or revocation of a final designation. Therefore, these amendments, which I hope address the noble Lord’s concerns, amend not only Clause 8(2)(b) and Clause 9(2)(b), but Clause 4(5)(b) and Clause 5(2)(b), which make provision for the duration, variation and revocation of final designations. The amendments have the same effect on each of the clauses, in that they remove the Treasury’s discretion to determine subjectively the steps that it considers appropriate and replace it with an obligation to take steps that, on an objective assessment, would be considered reasonable in the circumstances. I therefore beg to move.
Lord Pannick
My Lords, these amendments meet the concerns that I expressed in Committee. I am grateful to the Minister for listening and acting.
Lord Pannick
( ) they consider that it is necessary to act as a matter of urgency before proper consideration can be given to whether section 2(1)(a) applies.”
Lord Pannick
My Lords, this amendment addresses the purpose of the interim designation. Noble Lords will be well aware that the Treasury has a power to make an interim designation for a period of up to 30 days if it reasonably suspects that the criteria for making a designation are satisfied. After the 30-day period, reasonable belief is required. I entirely accept that it is appropriate for the Treasury to have this power of interim designation on the basis of reasonable suspicion, but surely it is appropriate for the Treasury to have and to exercise such a power only in those cases where it has not had a proper opportunity to consider and to decide whether the stricter criterion of reasonable belief is satisfied. Amendment 10 would limit the interim designation power to those cases where the Treasury considers that it is necessary to act as a matter of urgency before proper consideration can be given to whether it has reasonable belief in the involvement in terrorism. I cannot see that it would be appropriate for the Treasury to exercise that power of interim designation in any other circumstances. I suggest to noble Lords that it would be highly desirable that the purpose of this interim designation power be specified in the Bill.
My Amendment 13 is grouped with Amendment 10. However, government Amendment 14 meets the concern which I expressed in Committee and explains Amendment 13, which deals with the need for improved safeguards against repeated interim designations of the same person. I thank the Minister for tabling Amendment 14. I beg to move.
Baroness Hamwee
I have tabled Amendment 12 in this group. First, with regard to Amendment 10, I hope we will not hear from the Minister that it is not necessary to put the provision into the Bill because it is the practice—a point I may make later in a different context.
I might have said that my Amendment 12 was substantially the same as the amendments tabled by the noble Lord and the Minister. The point is the same—that the same or similar evidence should not be used to make more than one interim order. I could make the Government’s arguments against proposed new paragraph (b) in my Amendment 12, but I would like to hear them do so.
As regards the second limb of my amendment, it seemed to me that a time limit would be easier to deal with and could be more clearly analysed than relying on whether evidence is the same or substantially so. A time limit, although six months may not be the correct one, would make the matter absolutely clear—no one could argue with it or argue its nuances.
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, I will first address Amendments 12 to 14, which concern making a subsequent interim designation of someone who has already been subject to an interim designation. A common theme of the amendments is the information which can be used to make a further interim designation against the same person. These amendments clarify that the Government can make a further interim designation against the same person only on the basis of significant, not incidental, new information. The Government agree that any new information would need to be significant in order for the Treasury to make another interim designation. Our amendment is tabled to make it clear that a second interim designation cannot be made on exactly the same or substantially the same evidence.
The amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, prevents the Treasury making more than one interim designation of the same person in relation to substantially the same evidence, but not exactly the same evidence. I am grateful to the noble Lord for what I took to be the likelihood of him formally withdrawing his amendment—he is nodding. He also said that he will support the government amendment dealing with that point, and I am grateful for that.
The amendment tabled by my noble friends Lady Hamwee and Lady Falkner of Margravine mirrors the government amendment but, in addition, prohibits the Government making a further interim designation on the same person within a period of six months. I understand that the purpose of this amendment is to ensure that interim designations are not abused effectively to subject someone to a continuous interim designation lasting more than 30 days. In practice, it is extremely unlikely that the Government would be able to make the same person subject to a second interim designation within six months without a final designation being made. This would arise only where we are unable to make a final designation but have become aware of substantial new information showing that a further interim freeze is necessary for public protection. Such a situation would be extremely unusual. Ordinarily, we would expect that significant new information would support a reasonable belief threshold, but it is nevertheless possible. Any second interim designation must, of course, be necessary for public protection as well as not being based on the same information or, as we propose, substantially the same information. We believe that these are the right safeguards and that an arbitrary period during which the second interim designation cannot be imposed is unnecessary. We would not want to deny ourselves the ability to make a further interim designation in these circumstances. If we were so denied, it would leave the public exposed to an unacceptable terrorist threat. We therefore cannot accept this amendment, and I hope that my noble friends will not move it but will support the government amendment.
Before speaking to the government amendment, I will discuss the other amendments in this group. Amendment 10 limits the circumstances where interim freezes can be imposed to when the Treasury considers that there is an urgent need to act before proper consideration can be given to whether the reasonable belief threshold for a final designation can be met. We share the view that interim designations should be made only where necessary. Where the Government have sufficient evidence available at the outset to meet the reasonable belief test, the Government will make a final designation, not an interim one. This reflects that the fact that where we can do so, it is clearly in the Government’s interest to make a final designation rather an interim designation because, first, a final designation lasts for 12 months compared with 30 days for an interim designation and, secondly, because it is not in the Government’s interest to suggest to the designated person and to the outside world that we have only reasonable suspicion of a person’s involvement in terrorism where we in fact have reasonable belief. Therefore, interim designations will be made only in cases where the Government at the time of making the decision have sufficient evidence to meet a reasonable suspicion test but not a reasonable belief test.
The amendment proposes that as an additional safeguard interim designations should be made only where there is an urgent need to act before the Government have considered whether there is sufficient evidence to make a final designation. Let me stress that there is already an important safeguard in place. Interim designations and final designations can be made only where necessary for public protection. The question raised by this amendment is what additional purpose is achieved by requiring not only that interim freezes must be necessary for public protection but that there must also be an urgent need to act. If an urgent need to act is the same as being necessary for public protection, there is no need to add it. If, however, an urgent need to act is something additional to “necessary for public protection”, what situations does it cover that the phrase necessary for public protection does not?
In our view, the Government must be free to impose interim freezes in cases where we have sufficient evidence to meet the reasonable suspicion test and where we consider that it is necessary for public protection. To accept a situation where the Government consider that an interim freeze was necessary for public protection but were unable to act would negate the purpose of making provision in the legislation for interim freezes and would increase the risk to the public from terrorism. For this reason, the Government cannot support the amendment and I hope that the noble Lord will withdraw it.
The noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, has not spoken to Amendment 15, so I propose to move straight to Amendment 17. This amendment seeks to clarify that where an interim designation expires, whether after 30 days or on the making of a final designation, this does not prohibit the continued investigation of that person by the relevant authorities. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, for reminding us of the underlying purpose of all this activity against terrorism of which this Bill forms a part. The Government must be enabled to deploy all reasonable legislative and other appropriate powers to prevent terrorism. Therefore, it is good to be reminded of that at this point.
However, asset freezes are separate and completely distinct from investigative operations. While investigations may be relevant to the evidential base for making an interim designation, they are not directly linked. Neither the existence nor the expiry of an interim designation prohibits the relevant authorities from pursuing or continuing investigations they determine to be necessary. For that reason, we do not believe that it is necessary to amend the legislation and therefore hope that the noble Lord will not press his amendment.
Lord Pannick
My Lords, in relation to Amendment 10, the Minister emphasises that an interim designation order may be made only where it is necessary for purposes connected with protecting members of the public. Of course, he is correct. The difficulty with that argument is that the same criterion appears in precisely the same form in Clause 6(1), which is concerned with interim designation orders, and in Clause 2(1), which is concerned with final designation orders. Indeed, the criteria in the Bill for making an interim designation order are exactly the same as the criteria for making a final designation order, save that the final designation order may be made only where there is reasonable belief and the interim designation order may be made where there is reasonable suspicion.
My point is that there needs to be in the Bill something that identifies the circumstances in which it may be appropriate for the Treasury to take this, I hope, exceptional step of making an interim designation order even though it only has reasonable suspicion. The Minister, with great respect, has not answered my point that it can surely only be where there are circumstances of urgency and when the Treasury has not had time to deliberate and decide whether there is reasonable belief that it could be appropriate to make an interim designation order.
I am not going to pursue this matter today, but I ask the Minister and those who assist him to read the report of this debate before the next stage just to see whether he may be persuaded that there is something in what I say. He has himself brought forward, helpfully, a number of amendments to clarify the Bill in order to remove potential ambiguities, and I suggest that this is another. For the moment, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Hamwee
I shall speak also to Amendments 20, 20A and 22. They all concern the licensing regime and I am keen to ensure that there is sufficient in the legislation, as distinct from current practice, to put a direct obligation on the Treasury to deal with licences in the way that we have come to understand it does, and that the obligations are direct and thus do not require what might be described as a slightly more complicated Human Rights Act route.
Amendment 20 would require of the Treasury, if requested by a designated person or another person—I have put that in as an olive branch to the Treasury—that,
“a licence shall, if requested, be granted to enable the designated person or any other affected person to have access to funds or economic resources sufficient for the reasonable living costs”,
both of the person concerned and of any dependants. Subsistence costs are not much to ask for, and they can be conditional. Clause 17(3)(a) provides that any licence can have conditions attached. Amendment 19 would require that an application,
“shall be dealt with by the Treasury as a matter of urgency”,
for the reasons that have already been touched on, and clearly this must be urgent. It almost goes without saying that if all of a person’s assets are frozen, enough should be released to allow for reasonable living expenses.
I understand that the Government say that the Human Rights Act in effect obliges the Treasury to issue licences so that convention rights are not infringed. No doubt the Minister will take this opportunity to spell out exactly what convention rights are in issue and give the Government’s view on the route taken through them to achieve the result I want.
Amendment 20A deals with the costs of legal representation or legal advice. We debated this in Committee and I hope that my amendment has taken the helpful points made in particular by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, in order to address the possible use of such a provision to evade proper asset freezing controls—or, to put it more colloquially, giving money to dodgy lawyers who might then give it back to the person who is being controlled. So I have referred to “regulation” in the amendment. I am aware that the practice of the Treasury, which is not the same as what is stated in the Bill—although I may again be told about human rights provisions—is generally to license the granting of legal aid without anticipating what might happen to the legal aid budget. I am not convinced that that is sufficiently wide.
Amendment 22 deals with the variation of a licence. I have tabled it in order to seek assurances that the court can vary an order. Clause 27 states that a decision can be set aside. It would again be helpful if the provision were spelt out, although I suspect that I will again be told that there is Human Rights Act protection. Perhaps the Government can tell the House why it cannot be spelt out that an order can be varied rather than simply be set aside. If a decision were set aside, it would allow the designated person to go through the hoops again. However quickly the matter is dealt with, some time will be taken. However much the Treasury takes into account what the court says—it will clearly be under pressure to do so—it is all rather less direct and less clear. I beg to move.
Lord Pannick
My Lords, I support the amendments, in particular Amendment 20A. The Treasury has no interest whatever in controlling expenditure on legal advice and legal representation; its only interest is to ensure that the assets are not used for terrorist purposes. It is important that the uninhibited right to seek legal advice and to obtain legal representation is stated clearly in the Bill and that it is not left to Treasury concession.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
I thank my noble friend Lady Hamwee for dealing with licensing, which was an important part of our deliberations in Committee. Amendments 19, 20 and 20A would write expressly into the Bill a duty on the Treasury, if requested, to issue licences to allow the designated person and his dependants to access sufficient funds and economic resources to meet reasonable living costs and to pay for legal representation. In the case of living-costs licences, the amendment would place a duty on the Treasury to deal with applications urgently.
As my noble friend made clear, the amendments reflect concern that the Bill does not include a sufficiently clear obligation on the Treasury to issue licences for these purposes and that designated persons and their families are reliant on the good faith or good practice of the Treasury to grant such authorisations. I recognise the concerns that have prompted the amendments. It goes without saying that a designated person must be in a position at the earliest possible opportunity to access funds to meet his or her and their dependants’ living costs and to be able to pay for legal advice and representation in relation to their designation.
However, we do not think that to include in the legislation an obligation to issue such licences is necessary, since the obligation already exists by virtue of the Treasury’s duty to act in compliance with the Human Rights Act. Under Section 6(1) of that Act it would be unlawful if the Treasury acted in a way which is incompatible with a convention right. So, in response to the point made by my noble friend, it is not a question of acting with good grace but of acting under a requirement—an obligation—on the Treasury. It means that the Treasury must issue any licence that may be required to ensure that the affected person’s convention rights are not unlawfully infringed by the imposition of an asset freeze.
In order to secure compliance with this obligation on the Treasury, it routinely issues licences immediately on designation so that designated persons from the outset have access to frozen funds, including all social security benefits to which they are entitled, to meet their day-to-day living expenses. There is no requirement that such licences be requested by the designated person; they are issued automatically as a matter of course. The licences that the Treasury issues are broad and do not restrict the designated person’s access to funds necessary to meet only reasonable living costs. The only controls imposed are those necessary to protect against the risk of funds being diverted to terrorism.
In addition, a designated person or any other affected party may request a licence at any time if access to funds or economic resources is required which is not already authorised under the terms of a licence issued immediately upon designation. The Treasury’s practice is to treat any request for such licences as a matter of priority and, in particular, to deal urgently with requests where the failure to act quickly would result in hardship to the designated person or their family. It is therefore not necessary to impose an express duty on the Treasury to treat such applications as a matter of urgency as the Treasury already has a legal obligation to act in a way which is compatible with the affected person’s convention rights, and it is accordingly the Treasury’s established practice to do so.
My noble friend and the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, attested to the importance of legal expenses. Again, the Treasury is obliged by virtue of human rights law to ensure that it does not act in a way that would impede an affected person’s access to legal representation. To ensure this, there is already in place a general licence permitting the Legal Services Commission to pay legal aid funds to solicitors representing those designated persons who are eligible for legal aid. In addition, the Treasury will ensure that an additional general licence will be issued which authorises third parties to meet the legal expenses of designated persons by paying their lawyers.
There is an overriding obligation on the Treasury to issue licences for legal expenses. Therefore, again, it is not necessary to write such a duty into the Bill. I assure my noble friend and your Lordships’ House that the absence of such an express duty would in no way prevent an affected person from challenging the Treasury in circumstances where a Minister decided to impose a particular condition in a licence, delayed issuing the licence or refused to issue it at all. I repeat to my noble friend that this is not simply a matter of Treasury practice, but of the Treasury honouring the legal obligations upon it.
Lord Pannick
If I understood him correctly, the Minister mentioned legal aid for the designated person and allowing third parties to fund legal representation for that person. My concern is when the designated person has assets of his own which he wishes to spend on his legal representation. I should like to have an assurance that the Treasury will allow the designated person to use as much of his own legal resources as he thinks appropriate in his own legal defence provided that the payment, as Amendment 20A states, is to,
“a person subject to regulation as a legally qualified person”.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
I said that in addition to a general licence which already exists with regard to the Legal Services Commission paying legal aid funds to solicitors representing designated persons who are eligible for legal aid, the Treasury will ensure that an additional general licence will be issued which authorises a third party to meet the legal expenses of designated persons by paying their lawyers.
The noble Lord, Lord Pannick, raised the issue of whether the person’s own assets might then be used. That would be distinctive from a general licence which, by definition, cannot relate to that of an individual. As I indicated earlier, licences issued in respect of individuals are intended to impose controls that are necessary to protect against the risk of the funds being diverted to terrorism. That is the test. Therefore, an application for a licence—it would have to be a licence for an individual with regard to his own individual circumstances and not a general licence to which I have already referred—would have to be looked at by the Treasury against that test to ensure that that there was not a diversion of funds to terrorism.
Lord Pannick
I am sorry to test the Minister's patience, but if I understand him—please correct me if I am wrong—he is saying that there may be circumstances in which the Treasury would restrict the amount of money that the person who is designated—his own money—may be able to use for his own legal representation. If I understand the Minister correctly, that is because of the risk of the money being diverted to terrorism. But surely, if the money is going to a person who is regulated as a legally qualified person, the Treasury would have to suspect that a solicitor or barrister is involved, in some way, in terrorism. That is a very serious matter that should be taken up with the proper regulatory authorities and not be the subject of restricting the designated person from obtaining the legal representation that he seeks.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, in principle, it would be possible to allow people to spend their own funds on legal expenses. It does not detract from the possibility of a licence being issued, but there are practical reasons why it is not possible to allow frozen funds to be used to pay legal expenses. For example, there would be circumstances where banks would be put in a position of having to determine whether a particular transaction was for legal expenses or not. The Treasury allows this matter to be dealt with by way of licence with the appropriate conditions attached. That would be the way to deal with an individual licence on an individual application and a person seeking to use his own funds as opposed to and distinct from the general licence that exists for legal aid, which I have indicated would be issued with regard to the third-party circumstances that we have already discussed.
Lord Pannick
Lord Pannick
My Lords, this amendment concerns the award of damages where a person wins their appeal against a designation order. In Committee, the Minister said, at column 193 of the Official Report, that Clause 26(3), which was introduced by a government amendment in Committee, would ensure that a person who won their appeal against a designation order would be able to claim damages from the court. He was responding to an amendment tabled in Committee by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Davidson of Glen Clova.
I expressed concern in Committee that Clause 26(3) does not clearly confer a power on the court to award damages, even though it states that the court may make such order as it sees fit. The basis of my concern is that it is a general principle of law that to establish in court that an administrative act is unlawful because it is unjustified or based on a mistaken view of the relevant legal power does not of itself normally confer a right to damages for the victim, even if they are able to show that the unlawful act has caused direct and foreseeable damages. To claim damages, it is normally necessary for the victim of an unlawful administrative act to show that the official acted in bad faith or recklessly. I am concerned that, without express provision in the Bill, the courts may well apply this general principle.
Lord Pannick
I am grateful to the Minister. I am also very grateful to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, and to the noble Lords, Lord Lester of Herne Hill and Lord Bach, for their support.
I fear that the wording of Clause 26(3) will inevitably lead to considerable uncertainty. When persons win their appeals against designation orders—and some of them will—they will inevitably ask for damages and the court will have to decide whether Clause 26(3) embodies a discretion for it to award damages. I am concerned that the House should understand clearly what the Government’s position is. In Committee, Amendment 46 moved by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Davidson of Glen Clova, required the Bill to state expressly:
“The Secretary of State shall, by order, provide for the compensation of persons who have suffered loss as a result of an incorrect designation”.—[Official Report, 6/10/10; col. 190.]
The noble and learned Lord told the Committee that the purpose of his amendment was to,
“compensate those persons who have suffered loss as a result of having assets wrongly frozen, when the person holding the asset has acted in good faith and without negligence”.—[Official Report, 6/10/10; col. 191.]
There was some support in Committee for such a provision.
In responding on behalf of the Government, the Minister said:
“Should a designated person or any other person wish to seek compensation for loss suffered as a result of an incorrect designation, we believe that there are sufficient existing opportunities available for them to do so … we believe that it would be possible, in connection with a successful challenge against the designation, for the person to claim damages”.—[Official Report, 6/10/10; col. 193.]
However, I understand the Minister today to be saying something very different, which is that the court would enjoy the right to award damages only if the individual were able to establish some other legal basis for the award of damages—a breach of the Human Rights Act or a tort. If I have misunderstood the Minister, I should be grateful if he tells me and the House. This is a very important matter and it is absolutely vital that the House understands precisely the Government’s position and intention on this, and that the Bill is clear, so that those who read the legislation know exactly where they stand. I respectfully ask the Minister to think about this matter again over the next few days, to read the debate and, indeed, the debate in Committee, and consider whether it would be possible to come up with some words to clarify the position.
I entirely accept the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Bach, that this is not an appropriate matter on which to divide the House—certainly today—but I would be grateful if the Minister would think about the matter again. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Pannick
“(5) In section 67(3) of the Counter-Terrorism Act 2008 (rules of court about disclosure)—
(a) in paragraph (c) after “that” insert “subject to paragraph (ca) below”; and(b) after paragraph (c) insert—“(ca) that in relation to a final designation, the material disclosed by the Treasury on which they rely is sufficient to enable each designated person to give effective instructions to a person appointed as a special advocate to represent that party’s interests;”.”
Lord Pannick
My Lords, Amendments 23 and 24 are designed to give statutory effect, in the asset-freezing context, to the principle established by the Appellate Committee of this House in the case of AF (No. 3). I declare an interest—although it is not really an interest—in that I was counsel for the claimant in that case.
The principle stated by the Appellate Committee is that where a person is the subject of a preventive measure such as a control order, which severely restricts his basic liberties, that person must be given sufficient information about the allegations against him to enable him to give effective instructions to his lawyers or the special advocates to enable them to respond. The demands of national security, important though they are, cannot outweigh the basic right to know the case against you and to have the opportunity to answer it. The reason for that, of course, is that a right of appeal to a court is of very limited value if the subject of the order does not know the essence of the case against him.
I am surprised that the reply from the Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, to the chairman of the Joint Committee on Human Rights disputes that the AF principles apply in the context of asset freezing. I am surprised for three reasons—first, because a recent judgment of the European Court of Justice in the Kadi case specifically applied the same principles to asset freezing. Secondly, I am surprised because a judgment of the Court of Appeal earlier this year in the Bank Mellat case applied the AF principle to a Treasury decision to prohibit the financial sector in this country from entering into business with the claimant—an Iranian bank. There is very little distinction in principle between asset freezing and the financial restriction proceedings that were an issue in the Bank Mellat case. The third reason why I am surprised that the Government do not accept that the AF principles apply in this context is that the Supreme Court judgment in Ahmed, which led to this Bill, accepted that asset freezing is a very grave interference with a person’s rights, comparable to a control order.
Amendment 23 would amend the relevant provision of the Counter-Terrorism Act 2008 so as to require rules of court to ensure that the court’s otherwise absolute duty of non-disclosure in asset-freezing proceedings, where national security so requires, is expressly qualified by a positive duty to ensure sufficient disclosure to protect the right to a fair hearing. Amendment 24 is consequential.
These amendments, like many amendments that your Lordships have debated today, are required to avoid uncertainty in courts, delay and expense in the implementation of legal rights. The House may be aware that 27 special advocates pointed out in their recent written evidence to the Home Office counterterrorism review that there have been continuing difficulties in practice in securing the right to a fair hearing in control order cases. These amendments are designed to make clear the primacy of the duty of fairness in this context, as in the other context, consistent with what the courts have repeatedly stated, and to avoid the uncertainty that will inevitably otherwise result. I beg to move.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill
My Lords, I have put my name to the amendment and I wish to speak briefly in support of it. I shall not add to anything that the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, has said, because I perfectly agree with his entire analysis.
Regarding the evidence given to the noble Lord, Lord Macdonald, QC, in his review of counterterrorism powers, the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, referred to 27 members of the Bar who gave evidence. Eleven of them are extremely distinguished Queen’s Counsel, as are the juniors who act for both sides, who cannot be accused of being soft on terrorism or anything of that kind. I do not know whether the Minister has seen their devastating criticism and attack upon the special advocates and control order regime.
Like the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, I do not agree that there is a distinction to be made between this regime and control orders for the reasons which he has given, including the judgment of the European Court of Justice in the Kadi case. I can deal with the amendment briefly, because the report of the Joint Committee on Human Rights published at the end of last week deals with this matter in detail, from paragraph 1.25 to paragraph 1.35. The committee will meet tomorrow and will need to consider this debate and the Minister’s letter to the committee, referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick.
I hope that the House will be assisted by our having brought out the report, unusually before the Minister has had a chance to reply. Paragraph 1.35 states:
“We recommend that consideration be given to amending the legal framework to ensure that it secures the ‘substantial measure of procedural justice’ to which the subject of an asset-freeze is entitled under both Article 6 ECHR and the common law … we recommend that consideration be given to amending the Bill in four specific ways”.
Those are then set out.
Whatever happens today, this will not go away. It is extremely important, and it is my wish that both Houses take steps to ensure again that our statute book avoids the need for unnecessary litigation. Unless a significant change is made, whether in this House or the other place, it will be inevitable that this will be pursued not only in the context of counterterrorism, but also in the context of this aspect of counterterrorism; namely, asset freezing. Therefore, I hope that even at this late stage in the process in this House consideration can be given to what is in the report of our committee.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, I can almost hear the noble Lord advancing that case. The Government’s position is simply that it is possible to make a distinction where there was a challenge to the listing in the Kadi case. It is not a position that we would wish to concede; it is on all fours with the circumstances that would arise in an asset-freezing case.
Should the courts decide that AF (No. 3) applies to asset-freezing cases, any court rules that cut across this would be read down to ensure compatibility with the ruling. Therefore, it would not be necessary to amend the legislation. In any event, it would be premature to prejudge such a determination by the courts and now to require the disclosure of sensitive information that could damage national security or the detection or prevention of crime.
The question is how best to deal with a situation where the applicability of AF (No. 3) principles is not given and is uncertain. Advocates of the amendment argue that we must remove the uncertainty by giving the Government specific obligations in this statute in the terms of the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick. As I believe is abundantly clear, the Government’s approach is different. As I said in Committee, and as the Prime Minister announced in July, the Government will review the whole matter of the use of intelligence material in judicial proceedings and will issue a Green Paper next year. I say in response to the question from the noble Lord, Lord Bach, that the intention is for the Green Paper to be published in the summer of next year. In response to his second question, this will allow time for a judgment to be handed down in the lead case—the employment tribunal case of Tariq—in relation to whether AF (No. 3) applies more widely than stringent control orders. I understand that that case will be heard by the Supreme Court in January and we expect a judgment in the spring. It would be wrong to pre-empt the Green Paper, although there will obviously be an opportunity for reflection on that judgment before the Green Paper is published.
It would also be wrong to adopt a piecemeal approach to this important issue. As we have heard eloquently expressed in the debate this evening, the issue of special advocates and the use of intelligence material cuts across a number of areas. If we try to address these important issues in an ad hoc way in individual pieces of legislation dealing with different aspects, we risk ending up with different requirements in different pieces of legislation. I know that that is not what many noble Lords wish to happen in this area of legislation. They want to see greater coherence and consolidation, not fragmentation and a piecemeal approach. I could not have agreed more with my noble friend Lord Lester when he said that this matter will not go away. The Government readily recognise that. As I indicated, our commitment is to address the issue. The fact that we are willing to do that is a testament to the importance that we attach to it.
The Green Paper will aim to develop a framework for ensuring full judicial and non-judicial scrutiny of intelligence and wider national security activities in line with the Government’s commitment to individual rights, to the rule of law and to properly protecting national security. It will need to address concerns about the United Kingdom’s ability to protect intelligence material, including that shared by foreign partners, and to bring forward proposals to reconcile the evolving legal position—duly informed, as it will be, by Strasbourg and Supreme Court rulings—with modern intelligence practices. We will try to ensure such a coherent and consistent approach. I hope that noble Lords will welcome and support that approach and see it as a recognition not just of how important this issue is but also of just how difficult it can be to reconcile two very important but at times competing requirements. Although I recognise that noble Lords have raised necessary and important issues with this amendment, I hope that the noble Lord will agree to withdraw it.
Amendment 24 would amend Civil Procedure Rule 79.2. That rule requires the court, when dealing with certain cases, to read the overriding objective of the Civil Procedure Rules—in other words, to deal with cases justly in a way that is compatible with the requirement to ensure that information is not disclosed contrary to the public interest, while ensuring that it has the material available to properly determine the proceedings. This relates to a similar range of arguments to those that we have just gone through. It comes from a belief that the ruling in AF (No. 3) should apply to challenges to designations under the Bill.
For two reasons, I do not believe that the amendment is necessary. As I have already made clear—I shall not rehearse the reasons again—the Government do not accept that AF (No. 3) applies to asset-freezing challenges. It is for the court to decide the ambit of AF (No. 3) on a case-by-case basis. Even if ultimately the court found that AF (No 3) applied to challenges to asset-freezing decisions, we do not think that there would necessarily be a conflict between the disclosure requirements of AF (No. 3) and the public interest requirement of Rule 79.2 of the court rules. Rule 79.23 makes it clear that the public interest provision is without prejudice to the need for the court to satisfy itself that the material available to it enables it properly to determine the proceedings. Furthermore, as I have indicated, Section 67(6) of the Counter-Terrorism Act 2008, which is imported into this Bill, simply states:
“Nothing in this section, or in rules of court made under it, is to be read as requiring the court to act in a manner inconsistent with Article 6 of the Human Rights Convention”.
In short, the Government do not believe that Rule 79.2 would cut across any fairness obligation required by the court to meet Article 6. It is an important reminder of the need to deal carefully with sensitive material but it does not constrict the proper determination of the proceedings.
I recognise that serious and important issues have been raised. I have sought to address, although I suspect that I have not done so fully, the concerns expressed by noble Lords. We hope that this will be considered fully. My noble friend Lord Lester mentioned the special advocates, as did the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, who expressed his views very robustly. There will be an opportunity to deal with that in the context of a Green Paper, which will be a way to move forward in a coherent rather than a piecemeal manner. Therefore, I ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Pannick
My Lords, I am grateful to noble Lords who have spoken in the debate for the support that they have given these amendments and to the Minister for his detailed response. I sympathise with the noble and learned Lord because, with his brief, he faces the substantial difficulties of inviting the House to accept that the legal position is not as it has been stated by the European Court of Human Rights in the A case, by the Appellate Committee of this House in AF (No. 3), by the Supreme Court in Ahmed and by the European Court of Justice in the Kadi case. For all those judges essentially to agree that basic fairness is required when the Government impose a substantial detriment, whether a control order, asset freezing or something similar, on a person—and I forgot to mention the Court of Appeal in Bank Mellat—poses a certain difficulty for the Government. As we are all rightly concerned about saving public money, I respectfully suggest to the Government that it would be a considerable waste of public money to litigate again the question whether the AF principles apply in the context of asset freezing.
The noble and learned Lord mentioned the pending case of Tariq in the Supreme Court, which is concerned with whether the AF principles apply in an employment context. The case concerns alleged race discrimination. Whatever the Supreme Court decides in that case, it is most unlikely to throw any light on the issue that we are debating here and it is most unlikely to conflict with what has been said previously.
Having made all those points, I recognise that we shall not take this matter further today. I hope that the Government will reflect on what has been said—not by me but by other noble Lords who have spoken—that they will reflect on the range of judgments that have been given and that they will recognise that, if they want to impose orders of this sort, they have to comply with basic principles of fairness that involve telling the person concerned why, in essence, the detriment is being imposed on them. I have no doubt at all that the House will return to this matter on a future occasion, if not future occasions. For today, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.