Public Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) Bill

Debate between Lord Palmer of Childs Hill and Baroness Fox of Buckley

Committee stage
Wednesday 18th June 2025 Grand Committee

[Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I warmly welcome these amendments in the name of the noble Viscount, Lord Younger. I appreciated the detail that he went into because it is important that we remember that these direct deduction orders are real instruments of power. I am interested in how they will be used differentially, because I do not want them to be a blunt instrument. Therefore, it is worth remembering and considering those who might be on the receiving end of them.

In an earlier group discussing search and seizure, I had been considering speaking but was in some ways put off, because I thought that the search and seizure measures were only meant for organised criminal gangs. As was pointed out, if that was in the Bill maybe it would be more reassuring. It is difficult to know how many people will be affected by the same powers. We want to differentiate, surely, between the vulnerable and an organised criminal gang. There are those who are technically fraudulent, but it is because they have made a mistake, and so on.

I particularly thought of that because I listened to a vivid documentary recently about bailiffs and people who had got themselves into all sorts of distress and debt, with bailiffs kicking down their doors. I had that caricature in my head, and I do not want that to happen to those people. I am not suggesting the search and seizure measures will lead in that direction, but we should always think: who is on the receiving end of these powers? How did they get into that situation? How does the Bill make a distinction so that we do not, on the one hand, have a one-size-fits-all approach? On the other hand—this is a slight anxiety I have— I do not want us to simply get into a situation where we are saying that, because people are on welfare, they are vulnerable. That is equally a caricature, and I do not think it is helpful for us to see people always in a victim role.

I would be interested—that is why I welcome this group—in making the distinctions and learning how the Minister envisages us making the distinctions between the multitude of people on welfare when these powers, which are quite severe in many instances, are going to be applied. How will that happen? Who makes the decision? I think that is why these amendments are very useful.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

My Lords, I am pleased in this instance to express my strong support for Amendments 99D and Amendment 109ZA, tabled by the noble Viscount, Lord Younger, and the noble Baroness, Lady Finn. I have not been quite so firm in my support for others, but Amendment 99D would ensure that, before any deduction is applied to recover debt overpayment, due regard is given to the wider circumstances and vulnerabilities of the liable person. There would be a requirement for this assessment to be documented and available to the claimant on request.

This is a vital safeguard that would place fairness and compassion at the heart of the debt recovery process, ensuring that individuals are not pushed into hardship without a proper understanding of their personal situation. It aligns with my and my party’s commitment to a welfare system that is both effective and humane, recognising that people’s circumstances can be complex—gosh, they certainly can be—and that a one-size-fits-all approach to debt recovery is neither just nor practical.

Amendment 109ZA—we have a wonderful numbering system—would further strengthen these protections by requiring the Minister to consider the additional costs of living with a disability before making a direct deduction order. This would be an essential step in ensuring that disabled people, who often face higher living expenses, are not disproportionately affected by debt recovery measures. Both amendments reflect the principles of proportionality and sensitivity that should underpin all government action in this area. They represent a significant improvement to the Bill’s framework for tackling fraud and error while safeguarding the dignity and well-being of the most vulnerable.

Unlike the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, who said she was a bit hesitant on this, I urge the Committee and the Minister to support these amendments, which would ensure that the pursuit of public funds is always balanced with compassion and respect for individual circumstances. At this stage of the Bill, as mentioned by the noble Viscount, these measures need to be introduced so that we can perhaps on Report include them in the Bill.

Public Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) Bill

Debate between Lord Palmer of Childs Hill and Baroness Fox of Buckley

Committee stage
Monday 16th June 2025 Grand Committee

[Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, there was extensive conversation about the role of banks in the debate on a previous day in Committee, and I probably got carried away with my own hyperbole when I said that they were being coerced into being involved, on which the noble Baroness, Lady Anderson, corrected me. However, I think we can say that they are compelled to be involved and that financial penalties, which will become increasingly punitive, will be levied if they do not do as the Government request. If they get those penalties, the cost might not be an issue but there would certainly be reputational damage. We need to have some context here and recognise that the banks are not queuing up to do this. That is an important point, which the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Brixton, has made. There is a reluctance about some of the things that are happening with the Bill, which I think the Government can admit to.

In all the literature they have produced and in conversations we have had so far, the Government have reassured those of us who are worried about privacy. We are constantly being reassured that there are limitations on the type of data the banks will share. On the other hand, the way in which the Government are dealing with that is by saying that the banks will be fined—there will be a penalty—if they overshare or if they provide inaccurate information, so I fear that this penalty will, again, have the impact of pushing the blame or responsibility on to banks for any errors.

That makes me nervous, because it is not clear to me how they will not see anyone on benefits as just a pain in the neck for them, since they will now have to go through the exercise of checking, which they are being compelled to do or they will be fined or get into trouble, and if they get the information wrong or hand over the wrong information, they can be fined again. Inevitably—this is why I am interested in these amendments—the banks will associate these eligibility verification notices and the work being asked of them for those on benefits, and they will view such people as creating more work and more jeopardy.

I also think the banks are being held responsible for things they should not necessarily be responsible for. I would be interested to know how the Minister feels, because I think it is a reasonable query at this point to ask, “Isn’t there a problem with private banks being asked to be government inspectors?” I think it was one of the MPs who said that the purpose of banks is not to act as an arm of the state. How should private banks respond to the fact that the state is asking them to do a huge amount more in relation to this clamp-down on DWP welfare fraud? It seems to me that, ultimately, we are asking the banks to do what the Government should be doing, and the banks will get the blame if things go wrong. They are the ones who will be doing the surveillance, no matter which way we look at it.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

My Lords, I warmly welcome the spirit and substance of these amendments, which would collectively strengthen the Public Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) Bill by ensuring that our approach to tackling fraud is not only effective but fair and—that word again—proportionate.

Amendment 81 from the noble Lord, Lord Vaux of Harrowden, rightly probes how the Secretary of State will prevent undue costs being imposed on banks and seeks to clarify the mechanisms for cost recovery. This, I believe, is an essential safeguard, ensuring that our financial sector partners are not overburdened by compliance costs, which could ultimately impact customers and the wider economy.

Similarly, Amendment 91, which calls for an independent review of the eligibility verification powers with a focus on the proportionality—that word again—of costs incurred by both the department and banks, is a welcome step towards transparency and accountability in the implementation of these new powers.

I am particularly supportive of Amendment 83, which would place the duty of care that financial services providers owe to their customers at the forefront, ensuring that data sharing with the DWP does not override these fundamental responsibilities. This is a crucial point. While we must be resolute in our effort to combat fraud—on which I am sure we all agree—we must not do so at the expense of the trust and the rights of individuals. It is a very fine line to draw.

Amendment 89C from the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, would remove the risk that the mere existence of an eligibility indicator could trigger unnecessary action against account holders, thereby preventing unintended harm to individuals.

Taken together, these amendments would ensure that the Bill’s powers are exercised with restraint and with full regard to the interests of both institutions and individuals. We must not let it trigger unnecessary actions against account holders under the Proceeds of Crime Act. I support these amendments in their entirety.

Public Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) Bill

Debate between Lord Palmer of Childs Hill and Baroness Fox of Buckley

Committee stage
Wednesday 11th June 2025 Grand Committee

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

My Lords, Amendments 61C and 61D in the names of the noble Baroness, Lady Finn, and the noble Viscount, Lord Younger, seek to ensure that liable persons receive clear written communication regarding the outcomes of reviews and that Ministers demonstrate due consideration of wider circumstances when requested. This kind of transparency is crucial in practice, as it helps individuals to understand the basis of decisions affecting their finances and provides reassurance that their personal situations are being taken into account. For many people facing recovery actions, receiving clear, accessible information can make a significant difference in navigating the process and seeking further recourse, if needed.

Amendments 61E and 61F, alongside Amendments 62A and 62C, address important procedural and operational details that could impact on both individuals and employers. For example, limiting the scope of regulations as proposed in Amendment 61E may prevent regulatory overreach, providing clearer boundaries for those affected. Consulting employers on costs regarded as reasonably incurred, as proposed in Amendment 61F, encourages dialogue and can help to avoid disputes over financial responsibilities. Meanwhile, the provisions to restrict the restart of suspended deduction requirements after 24 months, as proposed in Amendment 62B, and to ensure written reasons for revocation of deduction orders, as in Amendment 62C, introduce important safeguards that promote fairness and clarity. In practical terms, these measures help to reduce uncertainty for both liable persons and employers, fostering greater trust and smoother administration. I support these amendments.

[Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I wanted to reiterate my particular support of Amendments 62A and 62B, even though they do not go as far as my amendment in relation to suspended orders. The sense of a sword of Damocles hanging over people is something that we could do with getting rid of. That would be an easy thing for the Government to accept without in any way compromising the aims of the Bill.

In relation to the other amendments, which I broadly support, I want to emphasise something that I keep thinking as I read the Bill and sit through Committee. Many aspects of the legislation can create an atmosphere of fear, uncertainty and sometimes even paranoia about what is going on if there is a sense of secrecy. This could be alleviated with the opening up of human communication to explain reasoning. These are difficult situations. We are talking, in some instances, about people who have committed wrongdoing of some sort, but it is important that liable persons have a sense of understanding the process. Very often, the way that the process gets stuck behind closed doors has created all sorts of problems in parallel situations.

I want to emphasise how, if things are left to internal processes, it can reduce them to hollow box-ticking. Civil servants or whoever knowing that they can be answerable will ensure that better work is carried out. It will also help to smooth the way for people to take this Bill seriously and not see it as some grand state surveillance conspiracy. It is important, in order to give credibility to the fraud recovery at the heart of the Bill, that the Government are seen to be as flexible as possible about all parties being held to account for what would otherwise be seen as some quite draconian powers.

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[Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I will be very brief. I have a lot of sympathy with most of the amendments in this group, apart from Amendment 63A, which fills me with dread. Fraud facilitation sounds as though it is a new crime, but I do not think this is the right place to bring it in. I appreciate that it does not necessarily have a criminal penalty, but it is also not entirely clear what it is.

I know that the Opposition have been pushing the problems of “sick influencers” in another Bill—this is a bit of a theme—but I get very nervous about requiring the authorities to trawl through people’s social media accounts yet once more to see what they are saying, then to blame them for things that happen. When I think of examples that I have been shown of “sick influencers”—but there are others—there is a thin line between people who are trying to give hacks to individuals on how to fill in labyrinthine forms and cope with the welfare system and people who show them how to cheat. I therefore urge against this: it is a can of worms, which I would keep well away from.

There is also a danger that you will allow individuals to abdicate responsibility by saying, “I did it only because I was told to by the influencer who I saw on Instagram”. This goes against the spirit of due process and of taking responsibility.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

My Lords, Amendment 63A addresses the important issue of those who facilitate fraud by providing information, advice or support. It proposes that such individuals could be subject to penalties. I believe that this measure helps to close potential loopholes and hold accountable not only primary offenders but those who enable wrongdoing. From an individual’s perspective, this could strengthen the integrity of the system and act as a deterrent against abuse.

Amendment 63B seeks to prevent the Minister from unilaterally determining penalties for persons who have not received a payment, which is crucial to protecting individuals from unfair or arbitrary penalties that could cause undue financial or reputational harm.

Amendments 63D and 64A focus on transparency, accountability and procedural fairness—elements that directly affect the experiences of those subject to the Bill. Providing written reasons for decisions following a review, set out in Amendment 63D, would ensure that individuals fully understand the outcomes and the rationale behind them, enabling them to respond appropriately, or seek further recourse if necessary. Amendment 64A would remove the Minister’s sole authority to change the appeals process and would instead require independent review—we have discussed in previous sittings what “review” and “independent” mean—and parliamentary oversight. It would introduce vital protections for individuals and guarantee that any changes to how appeals are handled are thoroughly scrutinised, preserving fairness and maintaining public confidence in the system’s impartiality. On that basis, I support these amendments.

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[Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I consider these three amendments as probably three of the most important amendments that have been tabled so far. I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Finn, for explaining why so well. They reflect a number of other concerns—it is not as though we have not heard them before—and articulate well the sense of responsibility that we should all have in this Room, as we scrutinise the Bill, in terms of the enormous amount of power that this legislation gives the state. It is why ministerial and parliamentary oversight is important and cannot, in any way, be neglected.

An astounding amount of power has been created in the name of tackling fraud. I sometimes think that it is disproportionate. Regardless, one would be much more reassured if there was at least the knowledge that this was always done by and answerable to Ministers and Parliament. Parliamentary oversight of something as powerful as this is essential and has been reflected in a number of amendments.

I have some other quick points. I thought that the noble Lord, Lord Palmer of Childs Hill, made a compelling argument for the Covid inquiry. It is true that, when I tell people that I am working on a fraud Bill, without exception they say, “The Covid stuff?” I say, “Possibly not; it is not there”. I listened and heard what the noble Lord said about why it is not appropriate, but I wanted to note that.

Of course, it was an extraordinary period for all the reasons that have been explained, but it has become almost impossible since to work out who said and did what to whom. In other words, there is little in the way of tracing accountability and being clear about ministerial sign-off, so I think the transparency register is a brilliant idea. It is clear; if you have these powers, let us see who signed off. No Minister should be frightened of that, because it is important for public accountability and, as has been said, is a way of ensuring that you are not held accountable for things that you did not sign off. It is a much clearer way of understanding it.

I am rather bemused by the final amendment, Amendment 68C. In my background reading, I have read a lot about the crisis in people who are sceptical about the Bill, who are worried that there are no people who are suitably qualified to see its powers through, so the way that this amendment has been posed seems sensible to me.

It is ironic, because there is an argument familiar to those who have been following the schools Bill about whether everybody who stands in front of a group of pupils needs to be qualified or not. “Not always” is my opinion, as somebody who was a teacher for many years. We should not be too rigid, because that is the nature of teaching. I was qualified, but that did not necessarily guarantee that I was a brilliant teacher. I know that qualifications do not necessarily guarantee anything but, in an instance like this, it seems absolutely right that the people entrusted to carry out these powers have the appropriate qualifications for what are complicated, complex financial matters. I therefore support all three amendments, which I think are very important.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

My Lords, I am also pleased to express support for Amendments 68A, 68B and 68C, which collectively strengthen ministerial and parliamentary oversight of the powers exercised under the Bill by authorised officers on behalf of members of the Cabinet Office, as other noble Lords have said. Ensuring that robust oversight mechanisms are in place is essential to maintaining public confidence in how these significant powers are deployed. By enhancing scrutiny, these amendments help to guarantee that such powers are used appropriately and proportionately, reducing the risk of misuse or error.

Amendment 68C, which requires investigators to hold professional qualifications comparable to those of officers in the Department for Work and Pensions Fraud Investigation Service is particularly welcome. They need professional qualifications. This commitment to professionalism and expertise safeguards the integrity of investigations and reinforces trust in the system. From our perspective, it is crucial that those entrusted with such important responsibilities are properly trained and qualified, ensuring fairness and consistency in enforcement. Together, these amendments produce a more transparent—we always come back to transparency—accountable and professional framework for combating fraud within public authorities.

Let it see the light and, when it does, there is a way of controlling it. Too often, whoever are in government think they know best and ask, “Why do we have to make ourselves open to scrutiny?” But it is that scrutiny, that existence of light from beyond, that makes the legislation fit for purpose. I support these amendments.

Public Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) Bill

Debate between Lord Palmer of Childs Hill and Baroness Fox of Buckley

Wednesday 4th June 2025 Grand Committee

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

My Lords, I apologise; to some extent I moved onto what sounded more like a Second Reading speech, but it comes out of the comments that the noble Lord made. Not just central government bodies but other public bodies must use the investigatory powers, where they are already there, and bring in the heavy guns only when needed. So I accept what the noble Lord, Lord Maude, says.

[Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I feel rather inadequate after hearing the last few speeches, which were excellent in their expertise and in making me think about the issues, and after the earlier discussion led by the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, on whistleblowers. I feel as though I am going to learn a lot from these debates, so I apologise, as I am raising just a few simplistic issues in this group on the chapter that has been labelled “Key concepts”.

As we start Committee, I draw attention to how the Government have been explicit that the powers in the Bill are designed to target error in addition to fraud. Error does indeed account for substantial losses of public money, so I have no problem with the Bill doing both but, too often, it seems that its powers—many of which are too draconian—are applied equally to fraud and error without distinction.

I am broadly in favour of looking at Amendment 4, which seeks to probe the circumstances in which a public authority would recover an amount paid in error, as we need to make a distinction between error and fraud. In general, many of my concerns, although largely confined to the section of the Bill dealing with the DWP and welfare, are on the dangerous conflation between fraud and error. If we do not keep them distinct, there will be unintended consequences from this Bill, and I am very worried about disproportionality in justice and so on. I would be interested to hear how the Minister responds to Amendment 4.

I am also very sympathetic to Amendment 7, which requires that:

“the Minister is satisfied that there are reasonable grounds to suspect that fraud or attempted fraud … has occurred”.

That notion of reasonable grounds is very important for this Bill and, sadly, it is too often absent. I think it can lead, for example, to suspicionless surveillance, which we will be talking about later in Committee.

I want to quote the written evidence given to the Public Bill Committee by the cross-party law and human rights organisation Justice. It emphasised that:

“This requirement for reasonable grounds is a well-known legal requirement in the context of state investigations: it is a safeguard to protect individuals from baseless state interference and fishing expeditions”.


It is very important that the requirement for reasonable grounds is taken very seriously throughout our discussions, so I was glad to see Amendment 7.

Although it is now completely after the effect, and I feel like this is a cliché, I will say congratulations to the noble Baroness, Lady Anderson. I kind of feel like the moment might have passed, but I have to say that her announcement at the start of the debate cheered me up.