Public Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) Bill

Debate between Lord Palmer of Childs Hill and Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle

Committee stage
Wednesday 25th June 2025 Grand Committee

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

My congratulations to everybody. I shall speak also to Amendment 127 in my name. These amendments seek to delay any payments being taken from carers whom the Government believe owe repayments on carer’s allowance, something I have spoken about a lot during this Committee, until the independent review into carer’s allowance overpayments has been published and, crucially, fully implemented. It is a matter of justice and basic fairness that we do not penalise carers, who are the unsung heroes who support our most vulnerable, while the very system that created those overpayments is under independent scrutiny.

We know from recent figures that at least £357 million has been overpaid since 2019, with many carers accruing large debts that they were not aware of through no fault of their own, often because the Department for Work and Pensions failed to act swiftly on overpayment alerts or to communicate effectively with carers about their obligations. The independent review, commissioned by the Secretary of State and led by Liz Sayce, is tasked with uncovering how those overpayments occurred, how to support those affected and how to prevent such distressing situations in the future. Until we have the benefit of its findings and recommendations, it would be unconscionable to proceed with debt recovery that would push already struggling carers into future hardship.

Furthermore, Amendment 127 proposes that the implementation of what will then be the Act be delayed until the review’s findings are published and acted upon. This is a call not for indefinite inaction but for responsible and evidence-based law-making. The Government’s decision to commission this review is a recognition of the serious flaws in the current system, whether it is just one payment or a mass of payments, as we discussed on the previous amendment, and the real harm caused to carers, many of whom breached the earnings limit by only a small amount yet face life-changing debts. To proceed with the Act before we have learned the lessons from this debacle risks repeating the same mistakes and undermining public trust. We owe it to carers and to the integrity of our social security system to ensure that legislative changes are informed by a full understanding of the problem and a clear plan for preventing its recurrence. Let us show carers the respect they deserve by pausing, listening and acting on the independent review before we ask them to pay a penny more. I beg to move.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I rise extremely briefly and apologise to the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, that I could not be in the previous group as I was in the Chamber. I will take seconds to intervene in the interesting debate between the noble Baroness and the noble Viscount to say that, of course, if you have a universal basic income, that is an extremely simple system to administer that would not create any of these kinds of problems.

Anyway, I rise with great pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Palmer of Childs Hill, and to back in particular Amendment 124, although I will be interested to hear the Minister’s response to Amendment 127. I felt I had to speak because I raised at some length in earlier discussions the case of Nicola Green. That is one case, but overall the Government have been clawing back £357 million. Hundreds of people have acquired criminal records in what I think most people would agree are entirely unjust circumstances, whatever the detail of the law. Some people now face debts of up to £20,000 or more.

This amendment—waiting until we have the review and not doing more damage to individuals’ lives and to the reputations of the Government and the Department for Work and Pensions—is a really simple, practical measure, and I commend the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, for doing this and for powerfully presenting his case. I also align myself very much with his tributes to unpaid family carers, who are doing so much in our society for what are, on a week-to-week basis, derisory sums of money for an incredible amount of labour.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I will put this amendment in the context of the discussion on the previous group. The noble Lord, Lord Palmer, and the Minister have been telling us regularly that this is all about people who do not engage. As the noble Lord said, he has seen people with a stack of envelopes behind the cheese board or whatever, but I have met many disabled people, particularly because of the demonstrations I have been on, for whom the arrival of the postman every day is a point of fear. People are absolutely terrified and are used to never receiving good news from the DWP. We have to acknowledge the context in which people are not engaging; it may be more than their mental health can take. We have to look at all these amendments in that context.

I warn noble Lords with subsequent amendments that I do not expect this group to take long, because we have already canvassed these issues extensively in terms of the use of algorithms and whether there is a human in the loop—to borrow terminology from another area of technology. Amendment 124A moves towards overpayments recovered from an individual. No final decision shall be considered valid or acted upon unless there is—the terminology here is important—

“meaningful and documented human oversight”,

and a human decision-maker has reviewed, understood and taken responsibility for the final determination. In some ways, this picks up the points made earlier by the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, about there having to be a responsible person in the DWP who can be held to account.

Under proposed new subsection (b), the recipient must have been

“provided with an individual explanation of the relevant decision in their case, including a clear explanation of how an automated system has impacted the decision”.

People need to know that there is this machine in the loop, so they at least understand what is happening to them, have a chance to make representations and are told how they can appeal if they want to appeal. We have canvassed these issues extensively. The amendment particularly addresses the situation that we saw in Australia with the enormous Robodebt scandal, with money being taken off people by a totally automated system. Many people knew that there were issues at the time and the Government in Australia kept being warned that this was going to be a problem. It was an unmitigated disaster, for which apologies had to be made, heads rolled and so on. This amendment is a sensible way in which to protect benefit recipients, as well as the Government from getting themselves tangled into things that they really do not want to get tangled in.

Finally, I suspect the Minister may say, “Well, this is going to happen anyway” but, if that is the case, why not put it into the Bill? I beg to move.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

My Lords, I will briefly address Amendment 124A, which seeks

“to secure fair administrative processes and meaningful human oversight”—

that is the point—

“for benefits recipients when … automated systems”

are used for decision-making. We have seen those problems with the Post Office and it happens all over.

The increasing adoption of algorithmic and automated decision-making within the public sector offers clear benefits in efficiency and consistency, but it also introduces significant risks, particularly around transparency, bias and the potential for unfair outcomes.

The Public Authority Algorithmic and Automated Decision-Making Systems Bill—that is a mouthful, is not it?—aims to regulate the use of these technologies, requiring impact assessments and transparency standards to ensure that decisions affecting individuals are accountable and subject to appropriate scrutiny. Amendment 124A aligns with those objectives by emphasising the need, as the noble Baroness said, for “human oversight”, especially where decisions have substantial effects on people’s lives.

It is essential that, when we embrace innovative technologies, we do not lose sight of the fundamental principles of fairness and accountability in public administration. Automated systems may be deployed in a way that mitigates risks to individuals and society and provides clear avenues for challenge and redress when errors occur. This amendment reinforces the importance of maintaining human involvement in critical decision-making processes, and ensuring that the rights of benefit recipients are protected and that public confidence in these systems is upheld. By supporting such measures, we can harness the advantages of automation while safeguarding against unintended consequences. I support this amendment.

Public Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) Bill

Debate between Lord Palmer of Childs Hill and Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle

Committee stage
Monday 16th June 2025 Grand Committee

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure briefly to follow the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, who made a typically powerful case. I echo his comments, particularly on the need for safeguards on the face of the Bill. We need only look across the Atlantic to see how badly things can go wrong and how important it is that there are laws on which future Governments—I am not at all referring to this Government—can be held to account.

I support all the amendments in this group, but I will focus particularly on Amendment 79, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Sikka, which would insert:

“A copy of the information notice must be sent to the parties affected by the notice”.


In considering that amendment, I looked at reports today from the horrific case of Nicola Green, the mother of a teenager with cerebral palsy, who was pursued by the DWP for more than a year, having been accused of fraudulently claiming nearly £3,000 in carer’s allowance. The DWP—this is the point of the story that is relevant to this amendment—wrote to her employer without her knowledge to try to take money from the pay of this part-time college worker who works less than 14 hours a week. That is a demonstration of how people need awareness so that they can know what is going on. To finish the story of Ms Green, last month the tribunal judge ruled in her favour and said that she had done absolutely nothing wrong. The DWP did not attend the hearing and then said that it was planning to appeal against the judge’s ruling. A few days ago, the Guardian got involved and Ms Green has now been told that she will not be pursued and she will receive information on how she can claim for compensation.

That is one case, but what we are looking at here is when a case is getting started, if we assume that there are reasonable grounds, as the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, has outlined should be put on the face of the Bill. If the DWP asks for this information and it has got something horribly wrong and has misunderstood the whole situation, as we know happens all too often, the claimant who knows about the information request will be in a position—hopefully, without going through the year of turmoil that poor Ms Green has gone through—to be able to stop the matter at that point.

Amendment 79 is, therefore, a terribly important amendment. I hope that we might hear from the Minister an ironclad, watertight statement that this will happen anyway, but if that is not what we hear, I will encourage the noble Lord, Lord Sikka, to bring the amendment back on Report, because it is an absolutely crucial issue.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

My Lords, these amendments in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Sikka and Lord Vaux, on the information-gathering powers of the DWP, provide greater clarity and safeguards regarding the collection and consequences of information requests under the Bill.

Amendments 76 and 78 both address liability and aim clearly to establish which party is responsible for any consequences arising from the provision of incorrect information. This clarification will, I hope, be important in ensuring that all parties understand their responsibilities and the potential implications of their actions, thereby promoting fairness and reducing uncertainty.

Professional Qualifications Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Palmer of Childs Hill and Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle

Committee stage
Wednesday 9th June 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

My Lords, I apologise that what I am going to say has nothing to do with devolved Administrations, because the Bill obviously affects them greatly. The Bill is a law of unintended consequences. It has been described as having been written on the back of an envelope; that envelope has got a lot of writing all over it by now. Amendment 52, to which I have attached my name, is about how many organisations have not realised, and still do not realise, the impact of the Bill. They think: “Professional qualifications; that does not really worry us”. Many noble Lords have had consultations with large organisations, chartered organisations and the like, all of which have given us their opinion. Some have given us their opinion twice because they have changed it. However, small and medium-sized enterprises have not been consulted at all. They have probably not even known that this Bill exists and how it is going to affect them—how it is going to impact on the qualifications of their workforce and whether they are going to have problems with their workforce. When I talk about small and medium-sized enterprises, I mean those with one to 50 employees. If they have problems recruiting now, how will it be afterwards?

As the Bill seems to have been created on the hop, without thinking too much about some of the detail, we now come to trying to mop up a Bill which has not been terribly well thought out in the beginning. We have to look at how to rectify that after the Bill becomes an Act. My Amendment 52 is about the Government committing to there being a report back within 12 months of the Act being passed, particularly in relation to small and medium-sized enterprises. By then, they will have realised the impact of the Bill on the staff they have, do not have, and might have. They might then feel that they can contribute. At that stage, one year hence, perhaps we can put the then Act into a better format. At the moment, it certainly does not seem to have been thought out properly from beginning to end.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, who has tabled a very useful amendment, Amendment 52, to which I was pleased to attach my name. I will speak chiefly to Amendment 55 in my name, but I will also look at the whole range of Amendments 52 to 55, which are all on variations of forms of reports. It might be useful for us to consider whether we can bring this together for Report. There is clearly a desire, coming from a number of different directions, to see a reporting and scrutiny mechanism for the Bill.

I will, however, briefly comment on and commend Amendment 19 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, which refers to consulting consumer interests. That is particularly interesting when we look back to the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Sikka, at Second Reading, and the concerns about the way in which many of our professional services are failing to meet the needs both of those using them and of broader society. There is something useful in the suggestion from the noble Baroness that would be interesting to take forward.

I will now address Amendments 52 to 55, on the issue of reporting back. There has been great discussion in this Committee about the complexity of the Bill, the difficulty of fully understanding its impacts and, indeed, the fact that, with its range of Henry VIII powers, much of the detail will come in later regulation of which we have very limited or no democratic oversight.