Smoking

Debate between Lord Naseby and Lord Young of Cookham

Thursday 25th January 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords—

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

My Lords—

Cigarette Stick Health Warnings Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Naseby and Lord Young of Cookham

2nd reading
Friday 3rd December 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, I thank everyone who has taken part in this debate, starting with the noble Lord, Lord Rennard, whose long-standing commitment to the campaign to reduce the harm done by smoking is well known; he also underlined the all-party commitment. He trailed the broader package of a suite of measures as part of the APPG manifesto published earlier this year, of which this is one component. We look forward to taking that agenda forward on the forthcoming Bill.

My noble friend Lord Naseby and I have been on opposite sides of this debate ever since we both joined the House of Commons on the same day in 1974. I was reading last night a contribution that he made in May 1980, much of which he repeated today, showing consistency. I say to my noble friend that much of his speech was not about the Bill but about raising the age limit, the licensing regime, a potential levy and a tax on profits. I understand that. He described the promoters of the Bill as misguided. I wonder whether he would like to reflect on that, given the wide range of health organisations that I mentioned—for example, the Royal College of Physicians and Cancer Research UK—and whether he also believes that they are misguided in supporting the Bill.

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

The misguided bit is that the promoters of the Bill have not taken any advice on communication. It is quite clear to me, as one who has been a professional in that world, that to place a communication, as my noble friend suggested, on a narrow cigarette that is burning away, in red on a white background, is not good communication.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

I will come to that specific point, but he described the promoters of the Bill as misguided and I was making the point that he includes among those misguided people a very wide range of serious health opinion. As I said, I will come to his point.

The noble Baroness, Lady Uddin, put the Bill in personal terms. I am grateful for her contribution. She made the point that we need to move on from the health information on packs, which is now taken for granted, to a new means. On my noble friend’s point, he raised the question of whether it would be easy to read. A cigarette is right under your nose so it is probably easier to read what is on the cigarette than what is on the pack. Also, the pack is not seen by other people, whereas, if you put a message on the cigarette, those in the company of the smokers will also see it. I see that as an added advantage of this move.

I listened with some disbelief to my noble friend Lord Moylan. He started off by saying that he was surprised that I had introduced this Bill in the middle of a pandemic, implying that I should wait until the pandemic is over before introducing what I think would be a very useful health measure. Astonishingly, he described the message that I want to put on the cigarettes—“Smoking kills”—as propaganda. Even the tobacco manufacturers now admit that smoking is bad for your health. I just wonder whether my noble friend has ever read the 1962 report of the Royal College of Physicians—the whole weight of evidence. The health warning that smoking kills, and damages your health, is not propaganda but accepted health fact. He should move on.

My noble friend then described the 2030 target for a smoke-free England as ASH’s target, but it is not; it is a government target to which the Government have committed—I look to my noble friend on the Front Bench. Finally, my noble friend Lord Moylan described what I am doing as patronising. There is the libertarian wing within my party, of which he is clearly a member. I have listened to these arguments about things being patronising for the last 30 or 40 years. When there was a proposal to introduce compulsory crash helmets for motorcyclists, that was described as patronising. Parliament legislated and I do not think there is any question of repealing that. I heard exactly the same argument about seatbelts for drivers and then passengers; people said that was patronising legislation. I heard it about banning sponsorship for sporting events and banning smoking on public transport and then in public places. I am sure I will hear it again during the passage of the Health and Care Bill, which has a provision for adding fluoride to water.

Every single one of those measures has been adopted by Parliament, and I do not think anybody would seriously suggest that any of them should be repealed. In due course, measures such as the one I am promoting today will be accepted as conventional wisdom. I hope that, in a few years’ time, my noble friend will accept that this is the direction in which public opinion is moving. As I pointed out, this is a popular measure; it is popular within my party. I am glad I have got that off my chest.

I am very grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Merron, for her support and her predicted support for the other measures that I and other noble Lords will introduce as amendments to the Health and Care Bill, which gets its Second Reading on Tuesday. That is much appreciated, as is her own record as a Minister in the Labour Government.

Finally, I am grateful to my noble friend the Minister, whose personal commitment to reducing the damage done by smoking shone through his speech. He put the Bill in the slightly broader context of government policy and recognised the imperative to drive down smoking. He said he had strong support for measures to stop people smoking. I will pick up one or two points from his speech for which I am very grateful. He said that the tobacco control plan would be published next year. “Next year” spans several months, so I wonder whether he could at some point be a little more specific about the timing of this plan, for which we have been waiting for some time, rather than referring just to 2022. He made the point that everyone is waiting for robust evidence. If everybody waits for robust evidence, no one will provide it, so at some point a country has to go first. I was grateful that he said that while he was unable to support this measure at the moment, he would consider it as part of the suite of measures to be looked at as part of the tobacco control plan. I accept what he says. That about sums up everything.

Leasehold Reform (Ground Rent) Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Naseby and Lord Young of Cookham

Committee stage
Monday 14th June 2021 Grand Committee

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

My Lords, I think most legislators would agree that there should always be a review of legislation. Unfortunately, that has not always happened in the past, and I have put down a number of amendments to certain Bills to say that there should be a review. But quite frankly, to have a review within 30 days is totally unrealistic; it is far too fast. Given that we have Christmas holidays, Easter holidays and bank holidays—and even the occasional pandemic, with people working at home—I am sorry to say that proposed subsection (1) in Amendment 19 is not the least bit viable.

However, when we move on to Amendment 20, we come to a more realistic basis: that within six months of the Act being passed a review of its financial impact on leaseholders must be carried out. That is eminently sensible and a reasonable length of time. The Minister may have a different view, but looking at it from the outside—again, I speak as someone who has been involved in housing matters—I would have thought that it was a reasonable length of time.

Whether proposed subsection (2) in Amendment 20 is correct, I am not sure. It says:

“The review must make a recommendation”.


I do not think it is the point of a review that it “must” do something. The whole point of a review is that it should look at all aspects of whatever it is reviewing and then make recommendations. That is a technicality, but it seems a more sensitive way of doing it.

I make one further point on the fire remediation work. I think Her Majesty’s Government, and this Government in particular, have tried very hard to get a grip on this very difficult area. One sees daily the outbreak of fire because of cladding, and each one seems to be different. I do not have the experience or the wisdom to know whether Her Majesty’s Government are doing enough in this area. I would appreciate from my noble friend, as would Parliament, a regular update on exactly what is happening on cladding. There is a great deal of confusion out there and clarity would help us all.

I was fascinated by Amendment 21A from my colleague the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley. I am conscious of having visited the model village that was formed in the Duchy of Cornwall—I cannot remember its name but I think it is in Dorset.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

Poundbury.

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

Yes, thank you so much.

I declare an interest in that I happen to own 40 acres around my home. Somebody suggested the other week that maybe a small bit of this—say five acres—might be a help to the housing market. I certainly would not think of having it on a leasehold basis. If I am going to build houses in the interests of the community in Bedfordshire, they will be sold, because if something is sold the family involved have real ownership. When they own their home it is not a disincentive but an incentive to do something good for their home; it is in their interests. I suspect that it is a disincentive to do so for most leaseholders.

I think the noble Lord is right to ask the question. I think he said that he sent three letters to the Duchy. The least that the Duchy should do is come back to the questions he asked. I hope that will go on the record. I say to my noble friend on the Front Bench that none of these are black and white, other than the fact that there should be a review within the six-month period.