Bribery Act 2010: Post-legislative Scrutiny (Select Committee Report)

Lord Naseby Excerpts

Wednesday 3rd February 2021 Grand Committee

[Lord Naseby (Con) [V]]

My Lords, it is my privilege to read this—

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Duncan of Springbank) (Con)]

The noble Lord is very quiet; could he lean closer to the microphone?

[Lord Naseby (Con) [V]]

Is that better? It will have to be.

I looked at this report, not because I was on the committee—I was not—but from the aspect of exporting. I have been involved in exporting all my life since leaving Cambridge with a decent degree in economics and having had the privilege to listen to the lectures of Professor Walt Rostow on his stages of growth. I lived in India and Sri Lanka in the mid-1960s, working for the Reckitt and Colman group as a marketing manager. In the 1960s, I wrote a pamphlet called Helping the Exporter with one of our colleagues, my noble friend Lord Vinson. On entering Parliament, I joined the All-Party India Group and the All-Party Pakistan Group, and started the All-Party Sri Lanka Group. Later on, I started the All-Party Maldives Group. In the following years, I travelled and had negotiations and discussions with the rest of south-east Asia, particularly Singapore, Malaysia and Indonesia, which I continue to do.

I congratulate the committee on the depth of its analysis. The Government’s responses are clear in what the response is but lacking, as I will indicate in a few seconds. It is a great pity that a work of this nature gets so little reporting in the major national press, particularly the Financial Times and other business publications. I urge the House authorities to get a grip on this issue; it is not a new issue but it needs to be attended to.

I will focus my comments on small and medium-sized companies. They are vital to our future as a country and are experienced in the sense that many of them take part in trade visits, usually underwritten or promoted or organised by the relevant chambers of commerce. The ones that I think about are, obviously—I was an MP for the East Midlands—the Leicester and Northampton chambers, which are very active, and many others.

For those chambers of commerce—and I have discussed this with the current people—as small and medium companies, the comment that they make is on focus. First, they do not think that our embassies or high commissions, when they go out and visit whatever company they choose to go to, are well enough briefed. I concur with that, as I travel to that part of the world and, in my judgment, Her Majesty’s Government now need to get a grip on it. Every embassy and high commission should have somebody very senior who is totally responsible for trade and development—and, within that, for how people should operate in the context of the country where they serve. Our people representing us on the ground need to be fully briefed on the Bribery Act and the implications for companies that come to seek their advice. Frankly, that is not happening, and it is time that we got a grip on it.

Secondly, the UK has good trade associations, which brief us politicians well when we talk about particular subject matters, and Her Majesty’s Government should provide specialist courses for them, covering all aspects of exporting—like the ECGD, which I have worked with—particularly, in the context of this debate, on the implications of the Bribery Act. It would be no bad thing if the chief executives of trade associations were brought into the government departments and given proper briefs and some structure to it all. Ideally, they could use a business school to help in this project.

Thirdly, small and medium companies are very important, but their management structures for exporting are likely largely to consist of an export team with an export director or manager with the involvement of the chief executive. These are busy people and, again, the department needs to make simple, short and efficient courses for export directors and managers—not just online and not just saying that something has been posted in some note somewhere, which they have to find. They need something good and easy and a helpline managed by an experienced official, not somebody who just reroutes them somewhere else. I realise that, with Covid and so many staff working from home, it is not easy, but it has to be addressed—and, in my judgment, all those involved in exporting need to come into the office at least once a week.

The department has been seeking collaborative approval on export advice since May 2019. What came out of the pilot scheme? That is so important.

I conclude with two comments. First, the City of London Police get 2% of the police budget but at least 25% of fraud crimes, so they need a bit more money to see that through. Finally, I wholeheartedly support the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord German.

Prisoners (Disclosure of Information About Victims) Bill

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Report stage & Report stage (Hansard) & Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 1st July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern [V]]

My Lords, I strongly support the Bill and I am conscious of the sort of hurt that the basic matter on which this Bill is founded can cause to people for many years. It is also very important that victims are at the centre of the criminal justice system, and the Parole Board is only part of that, albeit an important part.

I think that it is much easier and more definite if victims are properly included in the victim contact scheme. In other words, victims should be notified about anything that affects them. This is certainly one thing that they should be notified about, but I feel that having a system only for this particular matter—for the Parole Board—is taking the victim from the centre of the victim contact system out to a special place. In my view, unless we have a victim contact system that deals with all the possible interests of victims in what is going on, particularly in relation to those who have done them harm, there is a serious risk that the system is not sufficiently efficient.

It is also important that we keep in contact with victims. That involves finding out if there is a change in their circumstances—in their addresses or in any other matter that affects giving them notice. It is therefore important that a comprehensive system is set in place. I entirely agree with almost all that has been said about contact with victims, but I am not sure that it is wise to set up a system which deals with only one aspect of the criminal justice system rather than a system that deals with the whole lot, which the victim contact scheme was supposed to be. If it has deficiencies, as my noble and learned friend said, the thing to do is to put those right.

[Lord Naseby (Con) [V]]

My Lords, the House will know that I am not a lawyer. As it happens, I spent about 20 years of my life in the communications industry. One lesson that I learned was almost to a word what my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay just said. In the time available, I have not had a chance to look at the contact scheme—what it should do, what it does do and what it might do. While I say a huge thank you to the noble Baroness, Lady Newlove, for the way in which she put the situation, I want to be informed by my noble and learned friend on the Front Bench what exactly the victim contact scheme is supposed to do at the moment. I find it inconceivable that it does not do the majority of the items that are listed under Amendment 17, but maybe it does not. Maybe there are holes in it.

It may well be that, in certain cases, the Parole Board is not doing its job properly, but the fact that we include something in the Bill will not actually alter that situation one way or the other, except for those responsible to be cautioned or whatever.

Prisoners (Disclosure of Information About Victims) Bill

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Committee stage & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 20th May 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

My Lords, I shall be brief, because a great deal has been covered already, particularly by the noble Lord, Lord Mann; he spoke on Second Reading, as I did myself, and we explored some of this then. The Committee should be grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra. As was said on Second Reading, the Parole Board seems far from ideal in the present circumstances, and to have the safeguard of two registered medical practitioners is the least we can do, particularly in a high-risk situation. We are talking about men and women who have carried out terrible crimes. Bearing in mind the risk that they potentially pose to society, the safeguards in the amendment would be very helpful.

[Baroness Barker (LD)]

My Lords, I welcome the debate, and I am glad that the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, has tabled the amendment, because it is right that we should subject the Government to scrutiny. In drafting it, the noble Lord has gone some way down the road towards matters that were discussed in another place, such as whether we should have a rule of no disclosure and no release at all. He has not gone quite that far; he is just seeking to stop early release. Members of your Lordships’ House should go back and read the debates in another place on that matter. If anything, the Commons was inclined to go down a more severe road than that suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, but in the end it decided not to. We should pay attention to its reasons for that—particularly in the light of the remarks of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, who, as ever, dispensed wisdom to those of us who are non-lawyers, which I greatly appreciated.

May I ask the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, what difference his amendment would make in practice? My understanding is that its main thrust would be to require two medical opinions, which the Parole Board would have to follow; it would take away the board’s discretion. Does he have evidence of the Parole Board making decisions, particularly in cases involving such high-profile serious offenders, either without taking account of medical opinion or disregarding it completely? That seems to be what his amendments suggest may happen, and I am not sure whether there is evidence for that.

The Parole Board has the most difficult of tasks. It is always likely to disappoint one person, or one side of an argument, or another. It frequently finds itself having to depend publicly the judgments it has made, so I would be surprised if it was routinely dismissing or not paying attention to medical assessments. Indeed, it would have to have a medical assessment made by a medical practitioner to determine somebody’s mental capacity. I simply wish to know from the noble Lord what deficiency in the proceedings of the Parole Board he seeks to address and on what basis.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

I wish to speak in favour of this group of amendments, particularly those tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford.

Where a Newton hearing has taken place in respect to the relevant facts of an offence, it makes sense that those findings must be taken into account by the Parole Board when making a decision affected by the Bill. In effect, a rigorous “mini-trial” has been carried out, and a judgment given, so this information should quite obviously be used by the Parole Board.

In some circumstances, this might go in favour of the prisoner; in others, it might go against them. Either way, justice will be served by using the proceeds of Newton hearings. Without doing so, the Parole Board is at risk of ignoring or contradicting the findings of the Newton hearing which set the grounds for the prisoner’s sentence in the first place. That would not make sense and would create ripe grounds for judicial review of the Parole Board’s decision. It is almost inevitable, I would have thought, that a judicial review would conclude that it must be taken into account by the Parole Board. In the interests of clear legislation, and for the clarity of prisoners and victims, the Government really have to accept these amendments.

[Lord Naseby]

My Lords, I do not wish to contribute at this point, but I will listen to the Minister’s response.

[Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd (CB)]

My Lords, I wish to speak briefly to the amendments tabled by my noble friend Lady Bull, and to support them, but before turning to that, I will make two points.

I entirely agree with and support the purposes of the Bill because, as has been shown on so many occasions, closure is impossible to achieve to any degree without knowledge of what has happened to the body of the deceased. However, there is another observation which it is important to make. If there is to be a proper review and recasting of the Parole Board system, which is long overdue, it is not sensible to make piecemeal amendments at this stage. Therefore, I urge that this Bill be passed without significant amendment.

The only amendment which I support, and I do so warmly, is that tabled by my noble friend Lady Bull. My reason for doing so is very straightforward. It is my experience that, when hearing evidence, trying to determine whether someone has had memory loss and whether that loss is genuine is an extremely difficult exercise. Medical opinion may well vary on either side of the argument. Therefore, it is very important that, if there is a case in which mental capacity or the mental state of the convicted person is to be examined, it is done very carefully before the board. It seems self-evident that if, after a long time in prison, a person is to be considered unsuitable for release because disclosure of the whereabouts of the body or other matters has not been made, the judgment should take into account, if the question arises, whether the prisoner has the mental capacity to recall the events, whether his mental health permits him to do so or whether this is all phony. That is a difficult determination and it should be done by the board.

Prisoners (Disclosure of Information About Victims) Bill

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2nd reading & 2nd reading (Hansard) & 2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 28th April 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

My Lords, I live in Bedfordshire and represented Northampton for the best part of a quarter of a century. The prison serving that community is Bedford prison, which has difficulties made worse by the overcrowding that it has always had. Ironically, the situation we find ourselves in today with coronavirus has brought this issue into my focus; it is a heavily overcrowded prison. The argument and discussion that took place during the short debate last Thursday, in which I took part, concerned which prisoners should be put on temporary release and how many. The question was debated fully and, I think, successfully.

This Bill deals with the same subject of prisons. I have read it. A comment was made that it is only a short Bill, with three clauses. I remember chairing the Maastricht Bill, which was one clause longer at four clauses. It took 25 days to reach Committee stage, so the length of a Bill is not necessarily a determinant of its importance. I have a few questions, as a layman and someone who takes a public interest. The first question, which arises from the debate last Thursday, was raised by my noble friend Lord Balfe behind me. I note that the Bill applies only to England and Wales. Is there any difference between England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland in what takes place currently, and is it the intention that those other two important parts of the United Kingdom are to follow suit?

Secondly, I have listened in particular to my noble and learned friend Lord Garnier and it is not entirely clear to me why the Government have so far rejected the concept of “no body, no release”. Is it based on the evidence that has arisen from Australia, or on mental health concerns in that area? I hope that the Minister who spoke in the other place—I have read the whole of that debate—was correct to say that

“there is a danger that if we proceed too far along that path”

—of no body, no release—

“we could inadvertently create an artificial incentive for people to mislead the authorities and to feign co-operation or remorse.”—[Official Report, Commons, 11/2/20; col. 747.]

I would have thought that part of the skill of life for those who work in interrogation is to pull out an answer from whoever they are interrogating. However, the Minister may be right; personally, I have my doubts, but I hope he is correct.

My third question concerns the Parole Board. From listening to my noble friends and other noble Lords, one realises that the assessment as to why an offender is withholding information is, in essence, subjective. Again, it ends up as an assessment of risk. I am used to risk—I have been in the commercial world for the best part of 50 years. Some risks are relatively low; some relate to areas in which, by definition, the risks are quite high. We know that ourselves today, in dealing with the coronavirus. Murder, manslaughter and the other area we have discussed this afternoon are high-risk areas and I wonder whether such cases can be left to the interpretation of a body such as the current Parole Board.

I understand that there is to be a review of the Parole Board. Obviously, if that is the case, then somebody, somewhere, is uncomfortable with the current situation. The inference is that, somehow or other, the Parole Board has to be made more accountable and transparent. Certainly, transparency is vital in today’s society, as the public really do take an interest. Unless we have that transparency, the public will turn against us as the legislators.

My fourth question concerns the case of Vanessa George. I have read only the evidence and the discussions from the other place. Coming to it fresh, for the first time, I have to ask the Minister: does he really think that, for one reason or another, the wrong decision was made regarding her release?

I come to my fifth question—it is my last, although I also have one comment to make. Is the review still likely to take place, bearing in mind the challenge we are currently facing with coronavirus and the huge challenge of Brexit, which has to be dealt with in less than 12 months?

Lastly, I turn to an area which I am perhaps more comfortable in, namely the future of the word incentivisation. From reading the reports and the discussions from the other place, this does not seem to be part of people’s judgment. I have worked in the commercial world. I have lived in India and Sri Lanka; much of the law of those countries is determined by a combination of Buddhism and Hinduism. In the 50 years that I have worked in the commercial world, I have always taken a keen interest in incentives. Based on that experience, it seems that if incentives are correctly targeted, they can achieve a major positive response, which is sometimes way beyond what was expected or forecast. I simply ask my noble friend on the Front Bench: what are the incentives for the convicted person to provide the key information that they are withholding? Or, to put it another way, what other incentives, other than those that are there already, could we think about using, to try to find an answer to this very challenging area of the law?

Covid-19: Prisons and Offender Rehabilitation

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Thursday 23rd April 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

My Lords, I live just outside Bedford, the home of John Howard, the prison reformer. It has a very old prison, with some modifications. It is supposed to hold 500; the latest figure that I have is that it holds 900-plus. That reflects all the points that the noble Lord, Lord German, said.

I ask the Minister: why, when provision is made that there should be no visitors and no education, is Scotland allowing prisoners to have some form of communication with their loved ones? Why on earth can we not do that in the rest of the United Kingdom?

I come also to this key point about the Prison Governors Association figures. It is recommending that 15,000 be released because it knows about the staff shortages, the difficulties and the challenges. I say to your Lordships, in particular the Minister: why can we not be brave for once and have some real urgency? I have had to do it in my life with the three-day week; I remember that very clearly. It was done in Calcutta when I worked there and there was a particular problem.

I ask the Minister to take 15,000 as his target figure. He might not quite make it, but so be it. If he can get somewhere near it, every one of us in the House of Lords and in the Commons will thank you. We will have done some good for the poor souls who are worried stiff at this moment.

Northern Ireland: Devolved Government

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Monday 18th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

I am happy to confirm the first point the noble Lord made; it has been far too long since there was an Executive in Northern Ireland. The noble Lord will be aware that over the past year we have set out guidance that can be issued to civil servants to allow them to act beyond what would traditionally be accepted by the Civil Service. All we are doing just now has a single objective in mind: to restore an Executive. We have not made enough progress, and responsibility rests not just with the Government but with many other parties as well.

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as a former PPS in Northern Ireland for two years. Against that background of experience, is it not clear, as the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, has said, that one way or another we need to find an external catalyst to pull together these difficult, challenging people in Northern Ireland, who have little trust in each other? Does this not suggest that you need the experience of some external party or other?

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

My Lords, the Government have not ruled out using an external facilitator. Indeed, they are actively considering that point. However, it is important to stress that circumstances at this moment may also be a factor affecting that role just now.

Brexit: Withdrawal Agreement and Political Declaration

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Monday 14th January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

My Lords, I never thought, just over 20 years ago when I came to your Lordships’ House, that this evening I would be debating withdrawing from Europe. The noble Lord, Lord McNally, is right. Previously, many thought that the noble Lord who has just spoken was not really on the ball—but he clearly is on the ball in relation to the challenges we face today.

I make it quite clear that I voted to remain. I had the privilege of working overseas for five years of my life—most of it in south-east Asia, although there was a period in Canada. I am used to trading and exporting; I am certainly used to negotiating with Indians in India; so my background is of someone who understands industry and commerce. I was a founder member, I think, of the young European managers’ association in the 1960s. I was an active member of the council of the European campaign of the Conservative Party. My heritage in relation to Europe is there even in my second name: Wolfgang. I think that that says enough for most people in the Chamber: it is in the genes, as they say. Yet I stand before you deeply worried about what is happening today.

In a sense, I have suffered for the cause. My noble friend the former Speaker of the House of Commons knows that I was her Deputy Speaker—and, more relevantly, chairman of Ways and Means. I took the whole of the Maastricht treaty. To remind your Lordships, that created the European Union, set up the euro and set up the ability for families to locate somewhere within the European Union. Some 25 days on the Floor of the House of Commons; four all-night sittings—and all it was, was four clauses and the Title. At the end of the day Tony Benn MP came into my office and said, “I am moving a vote of no confidence in you, Mr Chairman of Ways and Means”. I said, “What have I done?”. “You have done it far too well”, he said. “We have not really managed to persuade the Government to change”. I said, “That is all very well”—but at any rate we saw him off and the majority I got on that fateful evening of 27 April 1993 was 367.

So my commitment is there—but when I look at what may happen tomorrow in the other place, I am deeply worried. Because I deeply believe in what was the European Union as far as we were concerned, I do not think that my friends in the Commons face an easy decision. The suggestions that have been put before them are difficult to vote on. We all know—perhaps we do not all know but certainly I believe—that the methodology used to negotiate leaves much to be desired, not least the change of management on the way through.

So I am deeply concerned, but it is for those in the Commons to make their decision. I sat in a marginal seat, with majorities initially of 179 and 142—it improved a bit over time. When you sit in a marginal seat, you listen to what people are thinking. It was quite clear—was it not?—to all of us in the referendum that the majority of our citizens wanted to leave the EU. That is there in black and white. Unfortunately, the then Prime Minister did not quite decide whether or not it was binding. But they made that decision and we should respect it.

If tomorrow’s vote goes against Her Majesty’s Government, they will have to think really seriously about no deal. I made some calls over the weekend to hauliers in Northampton. “What will happen?”, I asked. “Are you going to be stuck at Dover or Calais?”. “No”, they said. “We have known it was coming. We have made preparations. We have altered the software. No lorry will leave Northampton to go to the continent unless it has clearance”—and they are totally confident that they can get that in a few weeks. I talked to other industrialists. Look at the City of London. It has invested in micro-offices throughout the 27 countries. This is happening up and down our country today. It has happened. Yes, the small businesses will face problems, and Her Majesty’s Government are supposed to be doing something about that.

At the end of the day, we all have to face up to our responsibilities. If the great British public want to come out of the EU, and if MPs do not vote for the Government tomorrow, in my judgment we will have to look at a hard deal. It is a deal. It is a challenging deal, but we need some leadership and some nerve. But the opportunities are there. Our trade balance with the EU is not that smart. We are in deficit and have been for years. We have never really looked at the Commonwealth. The Commonwealth has two and a half times the number of people there are in the EU. There is an ageing population in Europe and a young, thrusting population in the Commonwealth. I believe that the opportunities are there and it all depends on tomorrow evening. If the Government get their majority, so be it—good. But if they do not, I will not be afraid to stand up and accept that no deal is the way forward.