Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) (Amendment) (No. 4) Regulations 2021

Lord Naseby Excerpts

Tuesday 9th November 2021 Grand Committee

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

My Lords, I very much welcome these proposals. Having said that, I have a number of questions to ask my noble friend. First, why is Northern Ireland not included? I am sure there is an obvious reason, but it is not clear to me. I note that, in paragraph 7.1 of the Explanatory Memorandum to the Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2021, there is a statement, allegedly from the industry,

“reporting shortages of around 76,000 drivers.”

From the inquiries I have made within the industry, it is nearer to 100,000, so I wonder what the evidence really is for 76,000. Was that figure given to the department some months ago, before the build-up we have now? That is a concern.

I also made some inquiries about the EU. Quite frankly, it appears that we are top of the list of shortages. I have not covered the whole of the EU, but it seems that the major countries with which we are competing do not have the extent of shortages that we have now. That is a major worry. I put it to my noble friend that if we did not know about the challenge from Brexit in January 2020, we must have known of the beginnings of these difficulties in the summer of 2020. Here we are, well past the summer of 2021, and, at best, we will see the benefits of this early in 2022. Somehow or other, we have allowed ourselves to drift, which seems particularly damaging to the UK economy at this time.

I come on to timing specifically. Let us assume these go through, as I am sure they will, as they are welcome, how long before we can expect to see some change on the ground with new people driving heavy goods vehicles? Do we anticipate this will be in three, six or nine months? It cannot be a very short time, certainly not before the middle of 2022.

While one should always be cautious about one’s position, I declare an interest in that I applied for my driving licence. I was advised that it was speedier to do it online, so I carefully did it online towards the end of September. I got an acknowledgement online on 1 October, saying that it had been received, so I have the reference and everything. Here we are on 9 November, which is nearly six weeks later. I am no different from others; I have talked to some colleagues in my former constituency and they are all waiting six, eight or 10 weeks. I would like to know from my noble friend whether this is because the processing is being done by staff at home or is because the staff are in the department, but something is holding up the issue of these licences. To the best of my knowledge, my licence is clean, so this should be straightforward. My application was accepted. I am having a problem, as are others in my former constituency. This is a real problem, and I wonder whether my noble friend can address it.

I come back to two other areas that I have raised before. I put it to my noble friend that the loan scheme that was closed in 2019 should be reopened. Is it not to be reopened because Her Majesty’s Government think that the industry should do all that work, or is it that the Co-op, which was mentioned in the briefing I got, was helping to sponsor it? As a member of the Co-op, I am certainly more than happy to go back to it and suggest that it should continue to sponsor the scheme, if it was the sponsor. I say to my noble friend that, at this particular point in time, when there is a huge difficulty that will be there for a long time, it does not make sense that those people who would benefit from the loan scheme, particularly some of the younger people, should have to rely on what is currently available. I know what is currently available, and I do not think that it is sufficient.

Finally, I understand that drivers coming in from the continent on a short-term basis—that is to be welcomed—are doing so on a cabotage basis. I must say that that has gone down like a lead balloon among UK drivers, who are now asking, “Why can’t we have cabotage for a short period in this difficult time?” All is not well in this area. There are huge difficulties. I recognise that the Minister is doing her best but, nevertheless, this is a huge challenge. It seems to me that it will not get any easier for a considerable time, unless I have missed some particular point. I will listen to my noble friend when she replies.

[Earl Attlee (Con)]

My Lords, my first task is to apologise most profusely to the Committee for not being here at the start of the Minister’s comments. I am sorry about that; business progressed a bit faster than I anticipated.

I am extremely grateful to the Minister for her careful explanation of the new regulations. I should declare my interest: I hold a C+E HGV driving licence and am a qualified HGV driving instructor, albeit out of date. In addition, I hold what is called an H licence, which covers a track-laying vehicle that is steered by its tracks. From time to time, I drive vehicles in circumstances that require an H licence on behalf of the REME Museum and others. In the past few months, I have driven a tank transporter with a gross train weight of around 80 tonnes, so I think I know what I am talking about.

The Minister explained the reasons why these changes are desirable. I do not disagree with her thinking. She has also made changes to the drivers’ hours regulations, to which I and the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, have tabled fatal amendments. I know that the usual channels are working hard to find us time to debate those regulations, but part of the problem is that the debate would not fit into a 60-minute dinner break business slot. It is unfortunate that, despite the severe problems arising from the shortage of HGV drivers, we still have not debated those regulations.

The regulations before the Committee are fairly technical. The No. 2 regulations dispense with the requirement for a separate test to drive a light vehicle towing a trailer. Since I passed my car test in the 1970s, I have always had a B+E entitlement. The proposed changes are relatively low risk and worth while, although the Minister should monitor the effect carefully. I do not believe that it is worth the effort of an additional test for light trailers. The vast majority of drivers would seek advice from a more experienced person before attempting to tow a trailer, but it is not a hugely complicated issue. The Committee should note that the regulations make a review at the three-year point mandatory. I point out that I see quite a few incidents involving light vehicles and trailers and know not whether inexperience was a factor, although I think that it is unlikely.

A more urgent issue with light trailers is the fact that such trailers are not subject to statutory annual testing. Furthermore, these trailers are often shared between friends and colleagues. In the past, I borrowed one and it collapsed under a modest load—it was quite a surprise. This would be a much more profitable area to regulate, rather than an additional driving test.

Turning now to the HGV testing regime and the Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) (Amendment) (No. 4) Regulations, I can provide strong support to my noble friend the Minister. I shall explain why. In the past, I have trained both military personnel and civilians within a commercial context to drive all types of heavy goods vehicles. One of my pupils, whom I will call Paul, went on to drive articulated vehicles carrying Formula 1 motor racing teams and their precious cars around Europe.

Heavy Commercial Vehicles in Kent (No. 1) (Amendment) Order 2021

Lord Naseby Excerpts

Tuesday 19th October 2021 Grand Committee

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend on the Front Bench for expanding a little on what is in orders No. 1 and No. 2. I took the opportunity to have brief consultations with some hauliers in my former constituency of Northampton South. I will go through the paragraphs of the Explanatory Memorandum that I think are relevant; they are coterminous across the two orders.

My noble friend talked at some length about the sunset clause, in paragraph 2.6. In my experience in both Houses, the purpose of a sunset clause is that it is a time to review a situation. It ensures that the department involved knows that there is a particular time when the order, or whatever it may be, must be reviewed. If the Government of the day decide that they no longer need it, okay, it is finished. But my noble friend said that they would like to keep it, just in case they might need it at some future time. With great respect, that is a burden on the industry because hanging over it is the fact that, at any point in time, Her Majesty’s Government can suddenly bring it in again, even though it is in a modified form. My conclusion is that there should be a sunset clause, maybe in 10 years or whatever is an appropriate time, because that ensures that there is then a proper review. Otherwise, all we do is add to legislation sitting there to no purpose. That is my view on that.

On paragraph 7.1, has there been any report on the review of the effectiveness of Operation Brock? That is an important dimension, particularly to hauliers. There is no mention that there has been, but I would have thought that somebody must have done one and that, if they have, it ought to be published. On paragraph 7.3, is my noble friend saying that the requirements listed are definitely no longer needed at all—in which case, has this been publicised sufficiently to the industry?

Paragraph 7.6 is about the supply chain, which we all know is causing a problem. Do Her Majesty’s Government expect normally not to need any further legislation, as has happened over the recent change on inviting in foreign truck drivers? No legislation was needed and an announcement was made. While I am on that, I have to say frankly that it has gone down like a lead balloon among UK hauliers, for two reasons. First, the hauliers ask, “If the short-term people from the continent can be given multi-drops and pick-up cabotage in a difficult situation, why on earth are we UK hauliers not allowed to do that?” Quite frankly, there is a great problem out there—it is painfully obvious —so if we are giving it to the foreigners coming in, which I welcome, why are our own people not allowed to do the same for a short period as well?

Paragraph 10.2 on consultation says that there were just 14 responses. I am not quite sure how to read that. Is that 14 companies—if it is, it would have been helpful to list them as companies—or 14 people who are interested in the industry who have responded? What is it? The universe of that is really quite important. If it is companies, is it just companies using Dover, or is it some other universe? It would be enormously helpful if my noble friend could tell us what the universe is.

The haulier handbook in paragraph 11.1 is very welcome and the trade welcomes that. Regarding the 17 locations, I am not quite clear, but I assume that this affects all ports trading between the UK and the EU. I did not have time to work out how many ports there are, but it must be a fair number. So, if the 17 locations are all related to Dover, that is fine, but if they are across the UK then that is not quite so fine.

Finally, I raised the training of HGV drivers with my noble friend on the Floor of the House the other day. My noble friend will know that there was a scheme for professional career development loans for drivers and for some reason it was closed in 2019. The amount of the loans available were from £300 to £10,000. These were for families that were probably not that well off and probably could not find that money very easily. If we have a shortage of HGV drivers—which we appear to have—why on earth was the scheme closed to new entrants in 2019? I do not expect an answer today, but can my noble friend have a look at that situation and see whether we should not be reopening that straightaway?

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

I start by thanking the Minister for her explanation. I share some of the noble Lord’s concerns. I have real concerns about these SIs. Although they seem to be perfectly reasonable attempts to introduce a more systematic way of dealing with the pressures on Kent roads and ports, especially Dover, in practice this is yet another step in the creeping accumulation of powers by this Government. This is an issue to which our attention was drawn by the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee.

This is an unusual example, because they are SIs that were introduced for one reason; that did not occur, but the Government are using the opportunity to take away the sunset clause and make it a permanent situation. They were introduced under cover of emergency procedures, hence without the usual consultation and safeguards, and are now being converted into long-term measures. This general trend in a number of pieces of legislation is exacerbated by Covid and the pandemic—although that is not relevant in this particular case.

In practice, these amending orders remove the sunset clauses in existing legislation. They make the powers that make up the response which is Operation Brock a permanent feature. The county of Kent will live under a series of extraordinary measures with certain categories of vehicles requiring passports to enter the county. Operation Brock is now to be used as a response to unforeseen disruption; for example, bad weather or industrial action and, I assume, other forms of unforeseen disruption as well. But these are occasional disruptions, and they happen across the UK as a whole, not just in Kent, so there is always the danger that this will be seen as a precedent.

My unease is even greater because when the Government originally introduced these measures, they anticipated—I have to say, I believed them—that there would be long queues on motorways because of new port procedures following our leaving the EU.

In fact, that has not happened, partly because the number of HGVs using the motorways has fallen, partly because there are not any drivers, or at least anything like the number that there used to be, because there has been a general falling-off in levels of trade with the EU, and because the trucks that used to take the land bridge between Northern Ireland and continental Europe now go largely via the Republic and straight down to the rest of the EU. Added together, these issues have meant a reduction in the number of HGVs, so there has not been the level of queuing. The Government took other measures which undoubtedly alleviated the possibilities of queuing. Although it complained vociferously about it, after the first few weeks, the industry became better prepared in terms of the paperwork than it was feared that there might be.

Kent access permits, which the first order is concerned with and as the noble Lord has pointed out, are undoubtedly an additional bureaucratic hurdle for the logistics trade at an already difficult time. It is yet another piece of paper, another form to be completed. I am interested in the practicality of this. Can the Minister explain how often these powers have been used? She referred to that briefly, but can she give us a little more detail about how often these powers have been used so far and how long Operation Brock has been in force on these occasions? Also, how is the logistics industry informed that Operation Brock is active? Someone might be aware that it is snowing, but perhaps not if they are in Newcastle and it is snowing in Kent.

This is an additional piece of bureaucracy for local hauliers too, albeit so that they can continue to use local roads, which obviously is important for them. Paragraph 10.2 of the Explanatory Memorandum referred to the consultation and said that there were 14 responses, and that the majority were in favour. What were the views of the industry representatives? I am particularly interested in the views of local councils because they represent local residents, who have had their lives seriously disrupted by traffic issues in the past. It was hoped that Operation Brock would solve this.

Paragraph 13.2 says:

“The vast majority of HCV drivers travelling via the Channel Tunnel and Port of Dover work for foreign hauliers”.


We know that this balance has changed in recent months, so it would be very useful for all of us if the Minister could update us on the most recent percentages and the balance that there is now between UK domestic hauliers and foreign hauliers using those routes. I look forward to the Minister’s responses.

HGV Driver Shortages

Lord Naseby Excerpts

Monday 13th September 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, Brexit is not the basis of this. At the current time, Germany has a 45,000 to 60,000 HGV driver shortage, France 43,000, Spain 15,000, Italy 15,000, and Poland 124,000. This is a problem that is impacting developed countries all across the EU and in the US, which has a 61,000 shortage right at this moment in time.

The noble Baroness refers to cowboys. I do not know who the cowboys are that she is referring to; I hope it is not the haulage sector, which I know is doing everything it can to make all the interventions we are putting in place work. For example, as the noble Baroness well knows, hauliers have to notify the department that they are going to use the extension of the hours and we obviously monitor the safety that comes out of that.

The noble Baroness seems to think that somehow the HGV test is getting easier. I am sorry to disabuse her: it is not. There will be no change to the standard of driving required for HGVs. The simple fact is that a certain element of the test will be delegated to trainers, who already train the HGV drivers in things such as manoeuvres. I would go on on the safety issue, but it is clear that we have some of the safest roads in the world and we want to keep it that way.

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

My Lords, is it not clear that, with just about 100 days till Christmas, there is an urgent short-term problem? Against that, why cannot Her Majesty’s Government produce a six-month visa for former HGV drivers who are somewhere else in Europe and recognise that they need be for only six months? I have had a six-month visa in my life as a commercial man and everybody obeys the six months. That surely will help in the short term.

In the longer term, it costs a young person of a non-academic interest over £7,000 to train. Why can we not have the equivalent of the student loans scheme for young people who want to learn to be HGV drivers, which could be repaid in the same way, so that when they have a job they can pay the loan back to Her Majesty’s Government?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I recognise that my noble friend wants to open the floodgates to EU drivers, but I sense that he may be waiting quite a while for the flood to arrive, because as I have outlined there is a shortage of drivers across the EU. What we must do is focus very hard on recruiting and training domestic drivers, and getting some of them to return. That is where the heart of this lies.

I note what my noble friend says on training. I do not know where the £7,000 figure comes from, because I actually phoned up an HGV trainer the other day—not for myself, of course—to ask and they said that it was around £3,000. By removing the staging requirement to get a C licence and a C+E, we will have combined the two training elements together. We would also expect training to reduce to get a C+E articulated licence. As my noble friend may know, there are private sector loans available and many of the training schools will make those available to the trainees, but of course it would be better if industry paid for the training in the first place.

Air Traffic Management and Unmanned Aircraft Bill [HL]

Lord Naseby Excerpts

Report stage & Report stage (Hansard) & Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Thursday 21st January 2021 Lords Chamber

My purpose with this amendment is to seek government reaction to the need to provide for CAA-authorised and open operations in ways that the police powers in the Bill will do nothing to threaten or interfere with their commercial use and market growth. Other specialists, such as firemen and ambulance drivers, are set separate rules to other road users, which the police observe. Will the Minister agree to proposing further amendment to police powers in this Bill to address commercial uses and demonstrate the Government’s laudable commitment to supporting this fledgling industry? I sense that there is strong backing for this industry and the Minister’s direction to the Bill team would help to deliver it. I shall be happy to assist in the preparation of any amendments she decides to table.

[Lord Naseby (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I support the probing amendment tabled by the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig of Radley, to insert a new clause. I will not repeat what he just said, but I underline its importance. If we go back in time a little, the Minister may recall that, when she first took office on drones, we—the UK—were a bit behind the curve compared to France, Ireland and Canada. Now, we have an opportunity to take the lead, which is what this new clause is partially about. I want to re-emphasise to Her Majesty’s Government that this industry, in particular, is here to develop commercial distribution and to function at all, the police should not be involved. It should be left to the CAA. It is fair to be open and say to my noble friend that the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig, and I have been in discussions with the industry—particularly with its legal representative, Richard Ryan, who is a well-known and very well-qualified barrister.

I shall give a couple of practical examples. I have been involved with drones almost since the day they were invented. If you have a situation with a constable—let us say in Sandy, where I live—who, under Schedule 9, is simply asking for reasonable grounds for belief, which may be founded on a complaint by a passer-by, the consequence is quite significant for a commercial operator as the constable will have the power to request information while the flight is taking place. I do not know whether the Minister has had a go at flying these things—I hope that she has—but they are not that easy; I speak as a former pilot and the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig, is a very experienced pilot. Anyway, the flight is still taking place, and the operator is being interrupted. Currently, under Part 1 of Schedule 9, paragraph (1)(a) states that while

“a flight by a small unmanned aircraft is taking place”,

the constable may, as paragraph 2(1)(a)(ii) states, require the person to provide

“information that would assist … the constable to verify that … that flight”

is valid. The issue with this is: who takes responsibility for the flight when the pilot is being interrupted by the constable? What if the drone switches out of GPS mode and into attitude mode? It then clearly requires more care and attention with respect to carrying out flight safety under Article 241 of the ANO 2016. I know that my noble friend has all these details at her fingertips, but I remind her that Article 241 clearly states:

“A person must not recklessly or negligently cause or permit an aircraft to endanger any person or property.”


I have a couple of other points, which are perfectly practical as well. The amendments to Schedule 9 rely on the fact that a constable has reasonable grounds for suspecting that a provision of the ANO 2016 is or was being contravened, as well as other aspects. How would the constable know at that time what precise provision of the ANO 2016 was being contravened? In practical terms, this is unachievable, due to the complexity of the legislation and/or further amendments to the ANO, leading ultimately to a possible miscarriage of justice.

My next point is very relevant to what is happening in the Covid world at the moment. What is the position if a remote pilot is conducting numerous flights at the same time, whether it is at a drone lightshow or transporting medical supplies on behalf of the NHS at scale? Some of these flights could be beyond the line of sight. This is relevant because, when we start operating at scale, the police will have significant powers which can harm the industry, create unnecessary reputational damage and be of significant cost and disruption to the whole unmanned aviation supply chain.

I have half a dozen other examples, but I do not think that the Minister wants to hear them this evening, although I would be more than happy to supply them. I ask her to reflect that this is a new industry that can and will create many jobs, increase skills and set the UK up as a leading pioneer in unmanned aviation. A system that confronts companies with such onerous terms in the legislation, that captures absolutely all operators, is, in my and my noble friend’s judgment, flawed. We have a situation where the Government have taken a view. We have looked at other jurisdictions, such as Canada—a country I know quite well—where the legislation is about half the scale of ours.

My final thought is that the potential for the loss of income, innovation and opportunity will be significant if this law applies to commercial operations, or those with an operational authorisation, especially in the short term. There is significant reliance on a constable knowing all the relevant aviation laws that apply. This is no good when a drone operator, for example, has a roof survey the next day which he cannot perform because his equipment has been appropriated by the constable in lieu of an investigation with no time limit.

Here is a wonderful potential industry. We need to make sure that, yes, there is control, but that can be done by the CAA, an organisation for which I have had the greatest respect as a pilot myself. Leave it to the CAA—that is what should happen. I hope my noble friend will reflect on some of the evidence that we have managed to produce this afternoon.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, we have heard a very powerful case from the previous speaker. I see no reason for me to detain the House unreasonably and will speak briefly, principally to Amendment 15. My concerns in Committee centred on what I saw as the need to isolate potentially irresponsible non-commercial users of drones from those who, for perfectly legitimate reasons, seek to exploit commercially this new and innovative use of the technology.

During the debate on 27 January last year, I raised the issue of the confiscation of equipment. On 12 February, I raised the same issue, in particular where rogue operators breached the rules. There has to be a procedure in place which more clearly separates and differentiates the potential rogue operator from the legitimate commercial operation. Fines are too often no deterrent. We know from government stats that there is a high incidence of non-payment among those who have little respect for the law. We need a separate, more vigorously enforced regime for rogue drone operators. We cannot treat CAA-authorised operations in a way which appears similar to that in which we treat recreational users.

The danger in the Government’s approach is that the recreational user will be the beneficiary of the developing, lighter-touch regime that will ultimately and inevitably have to apply to commercial drone operations. This is inevitable as commercial operators exert increasing pressure for the introduction of such a regime to protect commercial viability. Alternatively, if this does not happen, commercial operators will be penalised by the more vigorous approach that will inevitably have to apply to the recreational user. The systems proposed are flawed.

The noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig of Radley, has valiantly sought to convince the department and Ministers of the dangers, but has received little reassurance to date by way of response. The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, can clearly see the writing on the wall and therefore seeks a review of the new regime at a later stage. She is to be congratulated on the persistent way in which she has pursued these matters over a number of years. Either way, the system when tested will need to be reviewed. We need two, distinct sets of rules and regimes; a separate regime that is fair to all.

Airports Slot Allocation (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2021

Lord Naseby Excerpts

Tuesday 19th January 2021 Grand Committee

[Lord Naseby (Con) [V]]

Can you hear me? I will make a short speech.

In the past, I have advised Singapore Airlines and SriLankan Airlines. I am a former RAF pilot and I support the third runway at London Heathrow. I thank the Minister for her practical and workable solution, delivered on time and with clarity. It is very welcome. However, I wonder whether she can expand on the prediction that it will take until 2025 for normality to return, given the creativity of the travel industry in the UK. I am not entirely clear what happens if a new airline decides that it wants to get going and to have slots. What will the procedure be? I would be grateful for clarification on that point.

I have two other small points to make. First, the Minister talked in her briefing about categories of airport in the UK, such as level 3. I am surprised that Glasgow, with its international connections, is not a level 3 airport. I assume that it is not big enough. Secondly, I re-emphasise what other colleagues have said: these proposals are very welcome but our poor airports are stranded at the moment, almost like whales out of the sea. They are losing millions of pounds. The Government have done something but something more needs to happen. One possible area for this is on air passenger duty.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Garden of Frognal) (LD)]

Since the noble Lord, Lord Mann, has withdrawn, I now call the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson.

Unmanned Aircraft (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020

Lord Naseby Excerpts

Monday 7th December 2020 Grand Committee

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

My Lords, I too welcome the opportunity to ask a few questions. Paragraph 4 of the Explanatory Memorandum is on the extent and territorial application, which is obviously the UK. However, having sat through many sittings on the internal market Bill recently, I know that there is a sensitivity between the devolved nations and the centre. In what way will we ensure that there is clear linkage and working together on this important and developing issue? My noble friend Lord Bourne made the same point.

I understand why we are taking the approach of designated standards. My only question is: will the UK be informed of cases where there were difficulties in registering a new drone or drone variant? If we are not aware of where there are difficulties, somebody might try to register here at some point.

Paragraph 7.4 of the Explanatory Memorandum discusses the design and manufacture of unmanned aircraft. Are these requirements, and in particular the oversight mechanisms, now ready or are we still working on those for the near future?

On the implementing regulations, paragraph 7.11 refers to the current categories of “open”, “specific” and “certified”. Do we intend to change those at all, or do we think that they will remain for the foreseeable future? I hope that there is no suggestion in paragraph 7.12 that we will drop the minimum age of 16 for the control of remote pilots and that there would therefore be no exemptions at all. I hope that the Minister can confirm that that is the position.

Paragraph 7.13 says that:

“Rules for conducting an operational authorisation are also set out in Article 11”.


I admit that I have not read Article 11, and I apologise for that, but perhaps the Minister could mention whether there will be any significant changes there. On paragraph 7.15, as a matter of interest, are the clubs that allow any form of drone activity all registered with the department or some other body?

On paragraph 7.16, I put on my hat as a former Deputy Speaker in the other place. This is such a young and dangerous market, in terms of potential danger to life, that the negative procedure is not appropriate. Her Majesty’s Government need to think long and hard about using the negative procedure, as referred to paragraph 7.16(a) and (b), because those instruments will go through on the nod. Unless people have a particular knowledge of the market they will be unlikely to raise anything on them. I would have thought that it would be much better to use the affirmative procedure for a period of time in that situation, particularly as we are taking this over from Europe. It would be a great deal safer for everybody.

I initially thought when I looked at paragraph 7.8 that we should carry out a review after three or five years, but then we have the September 2021 situation. What is the Minister’s current thinking? Is it to carry out a review in September 2021, or will we do a complete review in 2023?

Lastly, I have four general questions. In the world we live in, we know that people do copycat actions. We know that what happened at one of our airports one Christmas was awful. Can we be reassured that actions have been taken to anticipate a possible copycat somewhere in the UK along the lines of what happened at Gatwick? That is a highly forecastable risk.

I apologise for not forewarning my noble friend on this, but I read it myself only in my catch-up reading. I draw her attention to an article in the Financial Times on 5 December, which says:

“Russia’s most notorious cyber security company, Kaspersky, is trying to diversify into anti-drone technology”.


I do not expect an answer from her this afternoon, but the principle behind these new systems is to help airports and private landowners to jam drone signals. Does that come under her area of responsibility? If it does, is this not an area that we should be cognisant of?

The noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, raised the question of exports and imports. That was a fair question, and one I was concerned about as well.

Finally, it is pretty clear to me that Amazon and maybe others are looking to produce delivery drones. That market will not stay static for two or three years. I just hope that Her Majesty’s Government are keeping a close watch on that and that they will, if necessary, produce our own requirements and not wait on the EU to produce its own.

Civil Aviation (Insurance) (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020

Lord Naseby Excerpts

Thursday 18th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Naseby (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I first thank the Minister for introducing this SI. She may know that I am a former RAF pilot and civil pilot, and have done some work for airlines in the past. I am going to ask a series of questions and quote the paragraph number. I do not necessarily expect firm answers this morning. Perhaps she would be kind enough to write to me afterwards on those aspects not covered in her wind-up. I will start by saying how very much I support my two colleagues, the noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, and my noble friend Lord Blencathra. They made a good case that I do not need to re-emphasise, other than to say that I hope the Minister will take it seriously on board.

First, my understanding of the net result of paragraph 2.3 is that, as matters stand, there will be no difference between the EU and the UK in terms of the regulations. Secondly, I will ask about the extent and territorial application. We are to some degree responsible for our overseas territories, and aviation in particular is key to almost all of them—whether it be the Falklands, the Cayman Islands or wherever. Has there been any consultation with them? I know that they have their own devolved Governments, but it would be sensible for a check to be made on whether there is any adverse effect and whether they have any views on the matter. That relates to paragraph 4.

Paragraph 7.1 has partially been covered by my colleagues. Some families have been through horrendous experiences with insurance claims, baggage claims and so on. I was amazed to read last week that there are still 10,000 British citizens wanting to get back to the UK. I do not understand from Her Majesty’s Foreign and Commonwealth Office why on earth, after two months or more, arrangements have not been made to get them back. I hope that the Minister will have a look at these problems as we come out of lockdown and begin to make plans for the future.

Paragraph 10.1 on the consultation outcome states that the CAA has been consulted. Well, one would hope that it has been. I should like to know what the reactions of the CAA and the aviation industry were. The paragraph does not give us any clue on that. Did they just sort of say, “Oh, okay, they’re all right”, or did they have some reservations as yet to be resolved? That is an important dimension.

Paragraph 12.3 talks about correction of deficiencies. What were the deficiencies? It says not only that there are specific deficiencies but that they are minor. Who decides what is a minor deficiency as opposed to a major one? That would help us.

As regards paragraph 14.2, once again, there should be a review clause. I said this yesterday. Governments learn. I sat on the Public Accounts Committee for 12 years and, time after time, problems arose because no one had the nouse to review a situation. It does not matter what the length of time is, but officials should do that.

Finally, as the Minster knows, I take a specific interest in drones and would be grateful to hear of any instance in which they should be treated separately.

Air Traffic Management (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020

Lord Naseby Excerpts

Wednesday 17th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Naseby (Con) [V]]

The Minister may know that I am a former RAF pilot and a civil pilot. I have also been an adviser to an airline.

On the surface, this seems a pretty straightforward SI, which arises out of Brexit, and it is important that it is laid. Inevitably, though, it raises certain questions to which I do not necessarily expect the Minister to respond immediately this afternoon. If she is not able to respond to them now, I would be grateful if she could drop me a line after the debate.

I think it is easiest to go paragraph by paragraph through the Explanatory Memorandum. Paragraph 2.4 on page 1 says:

“This will ensure the continuity of a functioning regulatory framework for the UK’s Air Traffic Management”.


Are we saying here that the EU agrees with this in toto? That seems absolutely fundamental. I assume that it does, but I would like to have that in writing.

Turning to paragraph 2.5, will we still be involved in the SES ATM Research programme? We have clearly played a major role in the past. In paragraph 2.6, for the reference period 2020-24, how do the costs compare for users in comparison with the previous period?

Paragraph 2.16 refers to “efficient and safe ANS”. Have all the interested parties—the CAA, the users and so on—been consulted all the way and, most importantly, are they now comfortable with what has been agreed?

Further on, paragraph 6.4 talks about interoperation with the rest of Europe. Is the UK aviation industry 100% comfortable with that? Paragraph 7.2 refers to EU targets. Clearly, we are leaving the EU, so those targets are no longer necessarily what we want, but are our UK targets already established and are they comparable?

Paragraph 10.1 deals with consultation, which is a very important area. Are there currently any issues arising from this SI where there are ongoing discussions or concerns within the industry, or is it all now virtually signed and sealed once we pass this SI?

Turning to paragraph 11.2, is the UK already compliant or working towards compliance? What is the estimate for when the UK will be 100% compliant?

Paragraph 14 states that

“no review clause is required.”

I spent 12 years of my life on the Public Accounts Committee, and one great issue over the years was that all sorts of SIs went through which alleged that no review was necessary. Lo and behold, before very long, people wondered why there was no review date. I cannot think of anything more dramatic or large than leaving the EU—which I am in favour of. We ought to look at this and put down a date for review. I am open-minded on how far away it should be, but I would have thought it wrong to say that no review provision is required.

Lastly, the Minister may not know it, but I have always taken a passionate interest in drones. The development, flying and control of drones have all been a challenge. Are there any issues on the drones front that are affected by this SI, or that somehow escaped the notice of the Department for Transport?

As I said, I do not expect a detailed answer this afternoon, but I have been through this quite carefully and I would be most grateful if the Minister could ask the department to provide an answer to the points that I have raised.

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

My Lords, I gently remind all noble Lords that this is a time-limited debate. We would be grateful if noble Lords could stick to the four-minute speaking limit.

Covid-19: Aviation

Lord Naseby Excerpts

Thursday 4th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

My Lords, the quarantine requirements apply to all individuals who are arriving in the UK, irrespective of the time that they have spent outside the UK. They are all required to self-isolate, except for a very small number of exemptions. This applies to all individuals, however they choose to leave the UK, whether that be on a charter aircraft or indeed using another form of travel—for example, a ferry or the Eurostar.

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

How will it help British industry to get going again if our borders are now to be closed for marginal health gains at the cost of putting at risk our huge key aviation industry, which employs thousands and, even more importantly, is vital for our exports? Now we read in the papers that Her Majesty’s Government are contemplating interfering in landing rights at Heathrow. Will my noble friend reflect on the seriousness of the situation and give some positive help to this industry? Let us see some positive action to help aviation, to the benefit of all our economy.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

The noble Lord is quite right that we need some positive support for the aviation sector. That is why we have the aviation restart and recovery expert group, which includes representatives from airlines, airports, unions and industry bodies. It is putting together the best minds to work out how we can make sure that our aviation sector comes out of this as well as it possibly can. For example, it is setting up common health standards to be applied to an air passenger’s journey, from home all the way through to the other side. That is the sort of system that will help the sector to get back on its feet.

Aviation and Tourism: Cancellations

Lord Naseby Excerpts

Tuesday 5th May 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, is absolutely right that many of the cruise companies are indeed foreign owned. Provided that a cruise has been sold, or indeed offered for sale, in the UK, it will be covered by the package travel regulations. Therefore, the consumer will be entitled to a refund within 14 days. If a cruise holiday has been sold outside the UK or the EU, different terms and conditions may well apply. I will take back to the department her suggestion that other EU countries have changed their regulations. We will look into it.

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

On hotel and travel cancellations, what action can a consumer take where the provider’s insurance is claiming force majeure due to circumstances created by Her Majesty’s Government?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

The issue around force majeure and contracts is complicated. I am sure my noble friend will appreciate that I cannot give firm advice, because in these cases, each contract is likely to be slightly different. In the case that this is happening to a consumer, I suggest that that consumer gets their own independent legal advice to fully understand the terms of the contract. It is also the case that some consumers who use a credit card will be able to make a claim with their provider. They might want to check with them as well.