Legislative Reform (Epping Forest) Order 2011
Debate between Lord Moynihan and Lord Teverson
Lord Moynihan
My Lords, I rise again and in so doing I declare the interests not just of chairing the British Olympic Association but also of having the honour of sitting on the London Organising Committee of the Olympic Games as a director of the board. I again thank the Minister, in particular, and his colleagues for their comments today. I recognise that nothing is more central to the success of both the Olympic and the Paralympic Games than effective security. Here we are talking about effective security which will be provided by a maximum—if the Minister is correct—of 3,500 police officers on this site. But of course security goes far wider. Although this order is not relevant to that wider security, it is important to recognise that before this measure comes into place we will have many of the 205 national Olympic committees here for pre-Games training camps. Their security around the country is of high importance. I have raised the issue on many occasions outside your Lordships’ House but I hope that the Minister will echo it as critical to the success of the security operation. In his opening remarks my noble friend the Minister said that this was relevant to the Games. In that context, I would be grateful if he could clarify, for the avoidance of doubt, that we are talking about both the Olympic Games and the Paralympic Games and that the order is effective from 23 June to 20 September.
On the restoration scheme, I would be grateful if the Minister would let the Committee know over what estimated period of time the restoration process is likely to take place and whether there is any visibility at this stage on the cost of that restoration scheme.
In closing, I again thank my noble friend the Minister for his introduction to this order and for the comments made by my noble friend. In particular, perhaps I may echo the latter comments relating to the sporting success of the Games. I have every confidence that Team GB will be outstandingly successful at these Games. I hope that it will match our aspirational target of fourth place, as we did in Beijing, with a remarkable level of success in more sports with more medals than we have seen in many a decade. That would be very much due to the support services provided by the Government and, above all, to their ensuring the security of the Games and the athletes who will, I hope, have the experience of a lifetime when they come to London in 2012.
Lord Teverson
My Lords, I am here to talk about the renewable heat initiative but I grew up in Wanstead and could never understand why it was called Epping Forest when on Wanstead Flats I could see no trees. In fact it seemed to be part of the western European plain as it stretched out into the distance. As a schoolboy I used to visit the fairs in Wanstead Flats, which was a great experience. One of the few complaints that I can remember about the area and the police was that there was never enough of them. Now, at last, 3,500 have turned up at one time, which is probably good news.
I know that this is not, nor is it meant to be, an amusing subject. However, I was slightly amused at the restoration of Wanstead Flats. When I knew it four or five decades ago, restoration would probably have meant taking it down and making sure that it looked worse than it had before. It was in a very bad state at that time. I know that it is a lot better now and I am absolutely delighted that this restoration will be taken seriously, which I am sure is most important. I am delighted to see Wanstead Flats in the centre of the Olympic Games and how it will be organised. I hope very much that despite some of the mistakes made in this process, Wanstead will play its part in a successful Games.
Energy Bill [HL]
Debate between Lord Moynihan and Lord Teverson(13 years, 10 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Lord Moynihan
My Lords, as one who enjoyed spending Monday night in your Lordships’ House reading through every clause, including the details of the impact assessment, the Explanatory Notes and everything that goes with the Energy Bill, I may have overlooked something but I think that my noble friend’s point is, in effect, already answered. A request to list all the energy efficiency improvements that may or may not fall within the Green Deal would be fairly simple because it is already covered by the Bill. It was made clear by the Minister that under Clause 1(4) there would be an order made by the Secretary of State setting out the qualifying energy improvements. Anyone would be able to see those energy improvements. We would be at risk of repetition if we were now to add into this clause, and lift from the order, all those improvements that would qualify under the Green Deal.
Lord Teverson
My Lords, although I do not entirely agree with this amendment, or the way in which it is written, I think that it is important that the Green Deal plan is put within a broader context. In some ways, the Bill allows for that. In our last session in Grand Committee, we discussed the clauses that refer to the Green Deal plan and/or energy plan and I think that it is that broader energy plan that we could include in this.
As we will see in the next group of amendments, there will be occasions when there will be a much better deal available because more than one property is involved in the decision. This should also be pointed out in the Green Deal energy plan. I like what we are trying to achieve, because I believe that there is a broader issue.
There is another issue that has been left out. The biggest part of any energy plan is not the hardware or the physical changes that are made but how you use energy in your house. I would like to see an obligation in the code of practice—it is not appropriate for the primary legislation—that requires the assessor to ask whether it is possible to run a dishwasher or heating overnight off-peak rather than during the day. Your use of energy can be more effective in ways other than making physical changes to a building. I would like to see that included in recommendations in any energy plan.
This group of amendments includes Amendment 11, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Whitty. Although I do not agree with all of the amendment, I agree with the end of the sentence, which says the improver should have,
“no bias towards any one green deal provider”.
That comes back to the issue of ensuring that the improver gets a fair choice and option and that there is no bias within the system.
Lord Teverson
My Lords, this amendment brings two different subjects and two different strands to this debate: the role of local authorities and the ways in which we might incentivise the great British public to take advantage of the Green Deal. Ultimately, the measure of success of this scheme will be whether people sign up to see an assessor and say, “That’s a great deal for me. Go ahead”. I believe that they will and that they should.
Something that surprised me when I first read this Bill—I was going to say that with pride, but its sounds as though my noble friend Lord Moynihan has read it in much greater detail than I managed—was that local authorities do not seem to be covered until we get to the need to make sure that landlords behave themselves and participate. They seem to have disappeared from the concept of the Bill. I know that that is not the case, because the Government are heavily into localism, which I strongly applaud.
However, in the Bill and in the massive task nationally to deliver energy savings across the nation, we need allies. Natural allies in this are local authorities—the ones with a track record. They have previously been involved in this area and have shown their keenness. More importantly, they know the lie of the land and more about communities, housing estates and roads than do central government or the Secretary of State, and they know more than individual utilities, deliverers or providers within the scheme. That is why it is important to involve them.
Another theme that needs to come out with which local authorities could be very helpful—I refer to housing authorities in particular—is the achievement of even greater gains and possibilities as regards energy efficiency and saving, and help as regards fuel poverty. That can be done not only by looking at individual properties and flats or individual business units, but by looking at the opportunities that exist to act together. I do not propose that we substitute individual households participating in the scheme—I am sure that that will always constitute the major part—but I suggest that we bring together communities, streets, housing estates and those in flats of multiple occupation to form a single deal. That will bring better value to individual households and will enable us to complete this task more effectively.
This is a probing amendment. I would not for one minute expect it to appear in the Bill because it is not written in the correct language and probably would not work. However, I shall be interested to hear the Minister’s comments on, first, how local authorities can be involved and, secondly, on how we can ensure the rollout of a number of schemes that would be more effectively done on a community basis. As things stand, we will have a scattergun effect, where individual households make their decision about whether to participate. It will be like looking at the Milky Way, or the stars at night, where they appear all over the place with some areas of concentration. I think that it will be extremely effective to have individual street or housing estate action.
Lord Moynihan
My noble friend is speaking with characteristic eloquence and expertise on this subject, but I wonder why he has not included housing associations in the amendment.
Lord Teverson
That is a very good question. It is because, as a result of a lack of forethought, I did not think to include them. They would be an excellent addition to the list. Housing associations and social landlords would be the right types of organisations to be involved in such a scheme.
Finally, I turn to incentivisation. In talking about how we involve households in these schemes, I should mention that a couple of the more successful schemes that arose under the CERT programme involved a rebate through participation, particularly to do with council tax. I know that British Gas has successfully operated a couple of these schemes. Households will know that the Green Deal will mean that their energy bills will come down and that they can invest in their house in the long term without there being an immediate cost.
Nothing attracts people better than a bargain and something off the price when they sign up on the deal. I would like the Minister to use his imagination to think what we might do to ignite excitement about the Green Deal. Much as I support local government, I have to admit that there are few better incentives than knowing that you are going to have to pay less council tax. This has a track record as an incentive and I think that, if that sort of scheme could be included in some way, it would work well.
I realise that there is a problem about this and that I have solved it in a very imperfect fashion. The Green Deal is clearly self-financing through private finance rather than through other ways. To achieve the participation with local authorities and maybe the council tax rebate, which needs to be found from somewhere, I have taken the easy route and suggested the energy company obligation, which I am sure the energy companies will not thank me for. That is roughly how the CERT system works at the moment and it could potentially be a way through this as well, although I realise that that itself would effectively add to household energy bills.
Those are the areas about which I would be very keen to hear from the Minister. I very much look forward to this Bill finally passing and to the start of this scheme. It would be good to involve local authorities more and it would be good to have a community aspect to this. I believe that using incentives, however much we might look down our noses at them, are a way in which to ignite this plan, make it work and make it successful. I beg to move.
Energy Bill [HL]
Debate between Lord Moynihan and Lord Teverson(13 years, 10 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Lord Moynihan
I begin my intervention by apologising that I was not with you at Second Reading. Unfortunately, the challenge of London 2012 and the Olympic Games took precedence on that occasion. However, I shall be pleased to be with you during as many hours of the Committee stage of the Bill as possible.
Is not the point that my noble friend is making absolutely key to the discussions that we were having earlier on the subject of accreditation and certification? I ask him to focus on that because it if we can get the accreditation and certification system right, along the lines that my noble friend was discussing on an earlier amendment, we would go a long way to ensuring that we achieve the goals and objectives that my noble friend has set out.
Lord Teverson
I agree with my noble friend entirely. The quality of the assessor is most important, but that has to be supplemented by the duty of providing good information or a good plan as well. On that basis I beg to move.