Relationships and Sexuality Education (Northern Ireland) (Amendment) Regulations 2023

Debate between Lord Moylan and Lord Dodds of Duncairn

Wednesday 28th June 2023 Grand Committee

[Lord Dodds of Duncairn (DUP)]

My Lords, I will be brief, as other noble Lords have dealt with a lot of the substance of the objections to these regulations.

The point about the lack of respect in relation to teachers, school governors, parents and elected representatives in Northern Ireland is important. There have been many representations from all communities in Northern Ireland, particularly from those sectors, about how badly treated they feel. The lack of respect in the way in which this policy has been driven is the collective responsibility of the Northern Ireland Office, although there is a particular lack of respect and, I have to say, arrogance on the part of the Secretary of State in the way in which he has publicly dismissed criticism, as he also did the other day in the committee in the other place.

The words of my noble friend Lord Hay, a mild-mannered colleague who is not given to hyperbole or stinging criticism, should be taken on board by the Northern Ireland Office. There is a feeling that the current Secretary of State has cost himself a lot of credibility with his attitude and the way in which he goes about matters; it is not helpful. I certainly do not ascribe the same criticism to the Northern Ireland Office Minister whom we have with us in Committee today, who has demonstrated, across a number of issues on which we disagree, a commendable willingness to engage, discuss and have dialogue. We may not always agree, but we certainly have found that engagement productive.

The criticisms outlined by the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee in its 44th report are very strong and I commend the committee for its work. In his reply, the Minister would do well to go through those criticisms one by one and give a detailed explanation and answer to this Committee as to the accusations levelled against the Government in that report. It merits serious consideration and a serious answer: these are not trivial or small issues.

Finally, paragraph 12.2 of the Explanatory Memorandum says:

“There is no, or no significant, impact on the public sector”.


However, paragraph 12.3 says:

“An impact on the public sector is expected as the Department and will come under a duty to issue guidance … The exact impact will depend on decisions taken during the planning of delivering on the guidance. Furthermore, schools will also be under a legal duty to deliver the updated curriculum”.


Having contradicted itself in paragraph 12.3 compared to paragraph 12.2, the Explanatory Memorandum goes on, in paragraph 12.4, to reverse itself once again by saying:

“A full Impact Assessment has not been prepared for this instrument as no, or no significant, impact on the private, voluntary or public sector is foreseen”.


It then adds the words “free text”, which is clearly a typo. There is also a typo in paragraph 12.3. I do not know who drew up this Explanatory Memorandum, but whoever signed it off should certainly have looked at it more closely. I would like the Minister to explain what paragraphs 12.2, 12.3 and 12.4 mean, because they are contradictory.

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

My Lords, I am one of those people who has no connection to Northern Ireland—ones who think that they probably know better than those who live there what should be going on—who was rightly criticised earlier, so I speak with great hesitation, but having no connection to Northern Ireland allows a certain amount of detachment.

I have to say that this Government are turning out to be probably the most proconsular Government that Northern Ireland has had for decades. Even under direct rule, there was a higher level of consultation about legislation with people who actually live there than we are seeing today. We have had legislation to implement the Northern Ireland protocol and the Windsor Framework imposed on Northern Ireland without any consultation. One might say that that legislation was controversial between the communities, and having an independent arbitrator impose that legislation was a sort of necessity, however much damage it did to the fabric of the United Kingdom. We have moved on from that more recently to, for example, the Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Bill and the legislation imposing access to abortion services in Northern Ireland. Today, we have legislation about abortion education in schools.

In respect of the last three, one could be forgiven for thinking that the Government believe that, if they treat Northern Ireland with sufficient insensitivity and disdain, and with no discrimination between the communities, they will so unite the communities of Northern Ireland that all the political problems of the past will be put aside and resolved. That might at least be thought of as a cunning plan, but I suspect that the truth is much worse. We are seeing a loss of contact between what might be called the ruling class in Northern Ireland and the people it governs, including the elected representatives. That is not a right or sustainable position to maintain.

I rose specifically to draw attention to the powerful statement issued by the Irish Catholic bishops, who of course own and manage a large number of the schools. I was, to some extent, anticipated in that by the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie of Downpatrick. Without repeating her, I will draw attention to a separate part of their statement. It is not simply that they oppose this legislation and what it would require them to do, but they disagree with the fundamental basis on which it arises, which they refer to as

“the recent so-called investigation of the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission into RSE in schools”.

They have serious concern about the accuracy and fairness of that report. I quote briefly from the statement:

“Neither party took the trouble to engage with teachers in the classroom … At best, a limited paper-based exercise was undertaken which failed to recognise that in the reality of classroom teaching, teachers and schools are endeavouring to provide professional, ethically balanced, scientifically honest, and pastorally responsible age-appropriate Relationships and Sexuality formation in our schools”.


It is not simply that they disagree with it; they disagree with the basis on which it sits, which adds a further ground for objection and resentment. I suggest that Ministers should closely acquaint themselves with this statement, because it is extremely powerful and really quite excoriating.

There is a practical consideration. In no sense am I able or wishing to speak on behalf of Irish bishops and those who manage Catholic schools in Northern Ireland but, in practical terms, how do the Government think that they can require people with strong views on this topic to teach something that they believe is morally wrong and objectionable? How do they think that they can do this in practice? The most careful consultation would need to take place in order for this to be a practical measure, but that has not taken place and there is no indication that the Government are going to do it. No doubt there will be consultation, but the principle of what is required, as in the CEDAW statement, leaves little wiggle room.

Ministers should take this carefully into account. It is not simply a matter of making a law then seeing it happen. The people with whom the Government are dealing are not civil servants who will do what they are told simply because that is their role. These people have, in their view, ethical responsibilities not only to teachers but to parents. The Government cannot expect them to abandon those responsibilities simply because we have sat here and allowed a statutory instrument—a mere piece of paper that has very little weight in the minds of people with religious faith compared with their ethical beliefs—to go through. I would like to hear what the Minister has to say about that.