Seafarers’ Wages Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Mountevans and Lord Berkeley

Wednesday 12th October 2022 Grand Committee

[Lord Mountevans (CB)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Scott, has made the case well. This is from somebody who, I imagine, has not spent her whole life in maritime as I have, so I congratulate her; her points were made well.

We have the IMO close to us here in Parliament. It is just across the way, up the river and on the other bank. We are privileged to have it. If we do not abide by, for example, UNCLOS resolutions and agreements, it will be damaging to our position. I am sure that many maritime people would agree. It is extremely important that we do not behave irresponsibly here, particularly at a time when Britain is open for business. With all the other splendid slogans we have heard, it is important that we abide by international agreements. These were carefully worked out over a long period involving all parties, so I support the amendment.

I say in passing that I also support Amendment 23 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, which is in the same space but on a more restricted, faute de mieux basis and also holds good in that situation.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, I do not have any amendments in this group but I think it is appropriate for me to speak to some of the clause stand part amendments I have tabled. Basically, they result from a discussion during the International Chamber of Shipping’s briefing, to which the noble Baroness, Lady Scott, referred, about whether this Bill is compatible with international law.

Last night, I had the pleasure of joining many people from the maritime sector at an event in Greenwich. I must have spoken to more than a dozen experts in the field who questioned why the Government are doing this at all. They said, almost to a person, that the Bill will not deliver what the Government want. I certainly support its purpose—to protect the employment and remuneration of seafarers—but all the experts said to me that it will not do that.

One useful comment has come from Nautilus about the Insolvency Service work on assessing whether P&O had acted in a criminal manner when it did. Basically, the Insolvency Service is not going ahead with the criminal case while the civil investigation is still under way, but what it is really saying is that it does not think this Bill will deliver. This is from a union that represents many seafarers. It is worth quoting the information from the British Ports Association to put on record that it and other associations are not convinced that the Bill is compatible with the international commitments under the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea. If we take this uniliteral action, we risk other people who are possibly less responsible than the UK—I do not know whether that is still the case these days—doing the same thing and providing justification for doing things that adversely affect our ships, our seafarers and everyone else.

I hope the Minister can explain why this is being done at all. I will go into details on some later amendments, but will finish on this matter of principle. Presumably, the Government believe that this is compatible with international law, because Governments should not be breaking the law; I am sure the Minister agrees. But two people said to me last night that, within a few weeks of this Bill receiving Royal Assent—if it does—judicial reviews will start flowing. That is a terrible thing to say at this stage of the debate, and I hope it does not happen.

As a matter of principle, whether the Government think that this Bill complies with international law or not, it would be good to hear the Minister tell us about this and particularly about Articles 21, 38 and 42 of UNCLOS, in which the British Ports Association is particularly interested. I look forward to her comments.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, I have a number of amendments in this group, including some clause stand part notices, but first I must say that I support everything the noble Baroness, Lady Scott, said about these issues. It will be very hard for ports to be responsible for setting tariffs when they are in competition with the ports next door—it does happen. The other thing that worries me about the ports being involved in this is that, again, it is not unknown for crew members to disappear off a ship or come on to a ship when they are in harbour. We do not need to go into detail, but it is all part of the competition, the regulation and the enforcement, which is terribly important.

On the question of conflicts of interest, again, the noble Baroness is absolutely right that a number of ports are owned by shipping lines, but of course there are also other parts of ports—different quays or wharves—that are owned by a shipping line or by a different company that owns the actual harbour. My question then is, who will be responsible: the competent harbour authority or someone else? Take the Port of London Authority, which is the authority for the whole port, and Thamesport, which now has two or possibly three massive quays there: will the PLA be responsible, and would it like to be seen to be going in, interfering and getting information? I do not know the answer, but there is a conflict there.

Retaining vessels, as the noble Baroness again said, is actually quite common. It happened to us in Fowey about five years ago when a Russian vessel came in. It sat there, the tide went out and I suppose it probably ran aground on the bottom. Somebody went by in a small boat and found a hole in the side of the ship, well below the waterline, into which a dirty rag had been stuffed. The harbour authority, with the MCA’s support, quite rightly prevented that ship leaving until it had blocked up the hole with something better than a rag. Okay, that is not something you see every day, but it does happen.

Things happen to affect the proper management of a port. Sometimes ports are in competition, but they do not want to get into the position where they act as policeman to their own possible part owners, possible customers or anything else. I am sure the MCA and HMRC, as necessary, ought to be involved, so I support the amendments that the noble Baroness has tabled as well as my own.

I shall finish, again, on the legal questions and the scope of the UK port state control powers, which is to do with the ability to levy surcharges—these, as the noble Baroness said, are like a fine—or issuing suspensions via the SHA. The advice from the international chamber is that the Government could potentially be exceeding the powers conferred on them under the Merchant Shipping (Port State Control) Regulations 2011, which implement the UK’s international obligations under the IMO’s Paris memorandum of understanding on port state control in UK law. It suggests that the enforcement measures contemplated in the Bill should be aligned with and adhere to title 5 of the ILO MLC convention, which relates to “compliance and enforcement”. That is the third of what might be called my legal challenges to the Minister, which I hope I have put correctly. I can send her the briefing if she would like it; I am sure it would be useful to have a discussion about this when she has had a chance to read it.

[Lord Mountevans (CB)]

My Lords, the case for the Secretary of State being responsible for surcharges was very well made by the noble Baroness, Lady Scott, and the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley. To summarise, it sits much better with the Secretary of State. We have a situation in which the port authority is normally providing a service to the owner; the owner-operator is therefore a customer. To be, in effect, levying a fine on your customer is an unnatural state of affairs. In the interests of transparency and consistency, we should have one entity in the land deciding these things. They can vary from port to port and there may be special circumstances, but it is desirable to have one authority making the surcharge across the land.

Hovercraft (Application of Enactments) and Merchant Shipping (Prevention of Pollution) (Law of the Sea Convention) Amendment Order 2022

Debate between Lord Mountevans and Lord Berkeley

Wednesday 15th June 2022 Grand Committee

[Lord Mountevans (CB)]

My Lords, I have no comment to make on the hovercraft provisions but should like to raise two points. I am concerned about possible creeping criminalisation for seafarers. A pollution incident could take place due to a fault in a valve, a pipe or some such—work that could have been done by a shipyard or other third party—or something for which the crew are arguably not specifically responsible. I want the Minister to be very careful about extending to seafarers in this way criminalisation which might not be appropriate.

The second point is that shipping is a reserved power, but the legislation will generate different actions depending on the registered port of the vessel, so that a vessel registered in Aberdeen would not be liable to action, whereas a vessel registered in Southampton would. It would not matter per se whether the incident happened in the UK or elsewhere in the world, but the provisions in Scotland appear to be different and, if the ship is registered in Scotland, British ships could incur different penalties for a similar offence.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for her introduction of this very interesting SI. My first question is: why now, apart from the fact that Brexit has happened? We have all been travelling on hovercraft for 40 years or more, and one could assume, therefore, that it has been all right to pollute from hovercraft for 40 years without anyone worrying and you need only one person on the bridge because the regulations do not apply to hovercraft. Can the Minister explain why hovercraft are different? There are other types of fast passenger boats around these days—they are probably called “jet boats”, or something like that. I am not sure why a hovercraft is so different, apart from the fact that it gets its lift from air which does not leak out. It is still a craft and therefore obviously still needs to be subject to the pollution regulations and the manning rules.

On manning, is the intention to make rules for hovercraft the same as for any other passenger vessel, where, I think, the rule is that if you do not have more than 12 passengers, you can have one person as the crew, whatever the size of boat? But then there are various rules according to the number of passengers, size of ships, weather conditions and everything else. Hovercraft generally do not operate in bad weather in the way that many ships can. Perhaps the Minister can explain how the manning regulations would be different on a hovercraft from an ordinary ship in the number of crew wanted.

Lastly, I think that, as the Minister said, the only service now in the UK is the one across to the Isle of Wight, but there used to be one across the channel. If that re-emerges in some shape or form—between the UK and France or another EU country—will we get into the same knot as has happened with P&O Ferries with manning and everything else? I hope that will not involve coming back here with some more regulations; I hope it is already covered. I look forward to her answers.