Lord McNicol of West Kilbride
Main Page: Lord McNicol of West Kilbride (Labour - Life peer)Domestic Abuse Bill
Lord McNicol of West Kilbride Excerpts
The Deputy Speaker (Lord McNicol of West Kilbride) (Lab)
My Lords, we now come to the group consisting of Amendment 75. Anyone wishing to press this amendment to a Division must make that clear in the debate.
Amendment 75
Lord Curry of Kirkharle (CB) [V]
My Lords, I am afraid that I cannot support Amendment 82. I very strongly support the comments of the noble Baronesses, Lady Hoey and Lady Fox. The defence of reasonable chastisement was created to stop parents being prosecuted for assault when they did not deserve to be prosecuted. If a parent hits a child in a way that causes any kind of mark—the CPS would say anything more than a transient reddening of the skin—then they have used unreasonable chastisement and can quite properly be prosecuted. The reasonable chastisement defence helps to ensure that good parents do not find themselves accused of being a child abuser for doing something perfectly gentle and humane. This defence therefore exists, first, to keep children safe and, secondly, to protect loving, decent parents. The current law does not need amending; it achieves the right balance. Who, after all, wants to criminalise reasonable behaviour?
Friends of ours had a child taken from their family by overenthusiastic social workers, quite wrongly, which caused enormous distress. It was because of an unexplainable bruise. I expect that most of us experienced reasonable chastisement when we were children. In 2017, a ComRes poll found that this was the experience of 85% of adults. If reasonable chastisement was so harmful that it deserved to be criminalised, you would expect eight out of 10 adults to manifest the same symptoms as children who have been abused. But of course they do not. How many of us whose parents loved us, cared for us and taught us right from wrong think our childhoods would have been better if our parents had been prosecuted merely for giving us a well-deserved smack on the bottom? That is what this amendment would mean for families today.
Parents know their own children. They are best placed to judge whether a tap on the hand of a toddler who has resisted all other blandishments is the right call. I would strongly challenge the assumption that every parent who smacks their child should be described as hitting and violent. None of us approves of such actions. Parents have a huge range of tactics and strategies at their disposal to help their children grow up into kind, diligent adults: gentle instruction, words of praise, the naughty step and withdrawing privileges. But for many parents, reasonable chastisement sometimes fits the bill. Who are we to make criminals of those whose parenting philosophy differs from our own on this point?
For every person who claims that such common-sense parenting is damaging, we have thousands of sensible parents living in the real world who are convinced otherwise. Opinion poll after opinion poll shows that three-quarters of the public do not want to expose parents who use reasonable chastisement to the full force of the criminal law. This amendment is neither necessary nor wanted by the public. We should not use the criminal law to enforce political fashions and condemn the mums and dads of today for making the same decisions that many of us have made. We must let parents decide for themselves. Common sense should not result in a criminal record, and that is not an alarmist statement.
Last year, as we have been told already, Scotland passed a law banning smacking, while telling critics again and again that removing the reasonable chastisement defence would not result in parents being criminalised. Yet less than a month before the ban came into effect, the Scottish Government published advice telling members of the public to dial 999 to report a crime in progress if they saw a parent smacking their child. We are only months into the implementation of that law in Scotland, so we must wait and see what happens once the authorities begin to enforce it in earnest. So far, there is a lack of evidence that criminalising parents has reduced domestic abuse in countries that have introduced so-called smacking bans.
Instead of attacking good parents we should be reassuring them of our support, especially after the challenging year that families have experienced. There would be a real danger in including this amendment in the Domestic Abuse Bill. Loving parents are not domestic abusers and it is insulting to suggest otherwise. A gentle tap on the hand to discourage a persistent two year-old from putting their finger in every plug socket they encounter is not child abuse but responsible parenting. Abusive parents are already caught by the law, but this amendment would task police and social services with targeting not abusive but loving parents. It would be a serious mistake.
The Deputy Speaker (Lord McNicol of West Kilbride) (Lab)
My Lords, we shall now hear from the noble Baroness, Lady Whitaker.
Baroness Whitaker (Lab) [V]
My Lords, I am very pleased to add my name to this amendment, so ably moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle. It is high time that the rights of children in respect of assault were given proper recognition. Of course, such assaults—otherwise termed corporal punishment—were not always regarded as wrong, and I can see that some people still do not regard them as wrong, but norms change, thankfully. Some newly accepted norms we think important enough to put into law, so that we can affirm them as a society. This particularly applies to instances of violence, which we have heard a lot about in this debate. Duelling was acceptable until it was made illegal, and indeed corporal punishment in schools was common until it was legally banned, as it was eventually—though shamefully late—in institutions for children with learning disabilities. Smacking within the family was accepted until the last Labour Government took the small step of banning it, but only if it left a mark—an odd concept in these days of valuing diversity of colour, as my noble friend Lady Howells, now retired, pointed out.
Of course, conduct does not always follow the law, which is why enforcement is a necessary corollary, but in this case the law lags behind popular opinion. When I last looked at the subject, the majority were in favour of making smacking illegal. Libertarians might argue that if the norm is changing, why have a law? Indeed, we have heard some even more extreme arguments this evening. I think the contemporary answer is that in a diverse society, if generally agreed changes in conduct are not given a push, traditional forms of behaviour, rather than the fast becoming socially accepted standard, will still prevail and harm children. Now, more than ever, we need laws that unite us and affirm the important values of dignity and respect for others, especially if they are weaker, smaller or more vulnerable. It is time for assault on children to be banned everywhere.
Lord McNicol of West Kilbride (Lab)
We now come to the group beginning with Amendment 83. Anyone wishing to press this or anything else in the group to a Division must make that clear in debate.
Amendment 83
Baroness Greengross (CB) [V]
My Lords, in moving Amendment 83, I will speak to Amendment 84. I am introducing these two amendments again on Report as I believe the issue they seek to highlight regarding older adults needs considerably more attention than it has received to date. After a helpful meeting with the Minister last week, I will not now be putting these amendments to a Division. However, I would like to raise a few important points.
At earlier stages of the Bill, I cited polling data from Hourglass—formerly called Action on Elder Abuse—conducted in 2020 which found that one in six adults over the age of 65 has experienced some form of abuse. That is 2.7 million older people in this country who have experienced abuse. Yet despite this, the abuse of older people is not taken seriously by many. Older people are victims of physical, financial, sexual and psychological abuse, and many others suffer abuse due simply to straightforward neglect.
These two amendments, debated in Committee and debated again today, are by no means the only measures that could or should be put in place to safeguard against the abuse of older adults. But both Amendment 83, which places a duty on local authorities to report suspected abuse, and Amendment 84, which gives registered social workers the powers to enter a private residence to investigate suspected abuse, are concrete steps to improve the reporting and investigation of this often horrendous crime.
Amendment 83 would reinforce existing safeguards practised by local authorities and duties of care detailed in the Care Act 2014. The draft statutory guidance that the Government intend to issue once the Bill gains Royal Assent places a greater duty on local authorities to support victims of abuse.
The intention of this amendment is to ensure greater consistency throughout the country with regard to the reporting of suspected abuse. At present, some authorities have robust processes in place to address this, while, sadly, others do not. Critical to this working will be a stronger emphasis on training and learning to identify potential signs of domestic abuse. Also, it is important that joined-up working between local authorities and other relevant agencies occurs throughout the country to ensure a co-ordinated and swift response where there is suspected abuse.
Amendment 84, concerning powers of entry for registered social workers, addresses the fact that at present, powers of entry are given to the police only where life and limb are at risk. This life and limb threshold is far too high. The proposal would bring England in line with legislation in both Scotland and Wales, where social workers have powers of entry. While obstruction of social workers is rare, stronger processes need to be in place where suspected abuse cannot be investigated.
There needs to be a balance when considering these issues and many would be wary of expanding powers of entry too far. But again, when 2.7 million older people have experienced abuse and in most cases the abuse is not even reported, it is not acceptable to say that the status quo is working. Obviously, it is not.
I had the opportunity to meet with the Minister the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, last week regarding these two amendments. The discussions we had were constructive, and she indicated that the Government are willing to do more work in this area to strengthen safeguarding against abuse of older people. I eagerly await her response or the response of the other Minister at the conclusion of the debate, which I hope will address the points I have made today.
The Deputy Speaker (Lord McNicol of West Kilbride) (Lab)
The noble Lord, Lord Naseby, has scratched, so the next speaker will be the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, and the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, will follow the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh.