HS2 Ltd: Costs

Lord McLoughlin Excerpts

Wednesday 25th October 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord McLoughlin (Con)]

Will my noble friend assure the House that there is no need for another inquiry into HS2? If anything, there should be an inquiry into how many inquiries there have been into HS2 over the course of its life. However, perhaps an inquiry into the way that the decision was made to not continue with the rest of HS2 would be appropriate. The company for HS2, the Department for Transport and the Treasury will always have the National Audit Office operating and keeping a watchful eye on them, as was made so clear by the chairman of the Public Accounts Committee, Meg Hillier, just a few days ago. I declare my interest as a former Secretary of State for Transport.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I cautiously agree with my noble friend that there have been an enormous number of inquiries into HS2 over time. However, so many of them were needed, and indeed will continue to be so. There is an enormous amount of scrutiny of HS2 Ltd, not only from the Public Accounts Committee, where the senior responsible officer, the Permanent Secretary, appears and will appear next month, but from the Transport Select Committee, the committee of your Lordships’ House, and other bodies such as the National Audit Office. I am sure that their scrutiny will continue, and rightly so.

Transport: Zero-emission Vehicles, Drivers and HS2

Lord McLoughlin Excerpts

Tuesday 17th October 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I do not know for sure, but I imagine that work on the business case will have already started. All these projects are at some point in the whole business case process, which, as the noble Baroness will know, is very lengthy. We are very committed to the upgrade of the north Wales line. It is completely due, and it is our ambition to work with Network Rail and other delivery partners to make sure that we do it in the most effective way.

[Lord McLoughlin (Con)]

My Lords, I declare my interest as chairman of Transport for the North. I say to my noble friend that I realise the position she faces defending this decision. For the last 13 years, any Minister standing at the Dispatch Box would have been saying why HS2 was, in fact, the right decision. Big transport infrastructure projects are always incredibly difficult. They are never without controversy and this scheme certainly was not.

I believe that the scheme, as originally designed, was the right one. I find it ironic that I could go from London to Paris, Brussels or Amsterdam on a high-speed train, but I cannot do the same for the great cities of the United Kingdom. It is an argument I made as Secretary of State, and I am not going to deflect from it now. I believe that overall it was the right decision for United Kingdom plc.

However, my noble friend keeps referring to the work that will carry on with the metro mayors. It is a great pity that they were not consulted before this decision was made. I find it rather ironic that, on the Tuesday the Prime Minister was telling us all that he was not going to be rushed into a decision, but then he made it a major part of his conference speech on the Wednesday. I have been involved in prime ministerial conference speeches in the past, and they are not usually put together in the last few hours before delivery.

Can my noble friend tell us now that we are going to get every transport plan we ever wanted because we have freed the schemes and we will see a utopia as far as transport is concerned? Some of this money seems to be going into revenue rather than capital investment, which is an interesting thing to see eventually on the department’s accounts.

This is not going to go away. A lot of people have been affected by this particular scheme and have had things compulsorily purchased for HS2 which are no longer going to be wanted. I do not think we will have heard the last of some of the problems that will be facing us as far as HS2 is concerned over the next 12 or 18 months, or even the next two years. This is something that is going to continue.

Ministers can point to Birmingham and say what HS2 is doing for Birmingham. I am sorry that that is not going to be done for our other great cities. That is a regretful notion that we will come to think and talk about. However, we have to make sure there is greater connectivity between our great northern cities, because there is a potential that is untapped. It needs tapping if the United Kingdom is truly going to be a country of equal opportunities across all of its regions.

That is what I hope will happen over the next few months. A decision has been made, and it does not look like the Official Opposition will say they will reverse it. If they did say that, it might change some of the argument, but they are not doing so yet. That also needs to be borne in mind. The implications of what has been announced will take some time to debate, and it will take time for the full ramifications to become known.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am grateful to my noble friend. I note his reflections and, to be honest, I share his disappointment to some extent, but I accept the decision. He made some valid points about the challenges that still face the HS2 project as a whole, and I agree: there are no major infrastructure projects that do not have significant challenges. But it is heartening to know that the Government are beefing up the governance arrangements of HS2 Ltd. A new chief executive is being recruited, and Sir Jon Thompson, the new chair who took his place in February, is very much involved in the recruitment to make sure that we get the right person to take the project forward.

My noble friend mentioned that there is some switch from capital to revenue—that always makes a Transport Minister excited because we do get much revenue funding in transport—but it is still mostly capital, of course, because we are talking about capital spend. This is an opportunity to mention one other piece of good news that I have not been able to mention to date: the “Get Around for £2” bus fare cap has been extended to the end of December. Again, that is revenue spend, and it is being used by millions of users. It has been really well received, and I am very pleased that we have been able to extend it.

High Speed 2

Lord McLoughlin Excerpts

Tuesday 19th September 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am not able to give an update on the physical work that is going on. My understanding is that the position at Euston has not changed. Again, that will be in the regular six-monthly update.

[Lord McLoughlin (Con)]

My Lords, I declare my interest as chairman of Transport for the North. Yesterday, in the Commons, the Minister said:

“The benefits of HS2 for Birmingham are already being realised”.—[Official Report, Commons, 18/9/23; col. 1107.]


He is correct. The simple fact is that this is a huge project—a project not about speed but about capacity. If we are to see more people and more freight using our railways, capacity is desperately needed. This project was started 14 years so. We should see it finished and serving the nation.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am grateful to my noble friend for pointing out the enormous benefits that Birmingham is currently seeing. All across the route of phase 1, there are shovels in the ground, with 350 active construction sites and 29,500 workers. The focus is on delivering high-speed rail services between London and Birmingham.

Great British Railways

Lord McLoughlin Excerpts

Wednesday 28th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I think the noble Baroness is reading a little too much into those comments. The Secretary of State is completely right that the current financial situation is unsustainable, but at no time did he say that plans to set up GB Railways had been abandoned. He also set out all the different steps that we can take without legislation—for example, contactless payments, simplifying fares, looking at the existing national rail contracts and entering into local partnerships. All those things are being done.

[Lord McLoughlin (Con)]

My Lords, I declare my interest as chairman of Transport for the North. I agree with my noble friend the Minister about the remarkable transformation we have seen in the railways since privatisation and the huge increase in passenger take-up, from 700 million journeys to 1.8 billion in the year prior to the pandemic. Does my noble friend agree that there is a malaise at the moment within the industry as to what the future direction should be? Too much at the moment is being controlled by the Department for Transport, which is, of course, controlled by the Treasury. That is not the best way to run a very successful industry. That is why we need GBR as soon as possible.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I point my noble friend back to the long-term strategy for rail, which will help the industry to understand what the medium-term future for the railways looks like. As to what we have been doing to increase revenues and free up the train operating companies, we are looking at the current railway contracts and at ways to put in stronger revenue-incentive mechanisms and allow train operating companies to put resources into increasing revenues.

Railways: Trans-Pennine Express

Lord McLoughlin Excerpts

Tuesday 23rd May 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, I hope to take a trip to Japan soon to go and see those fantastic railways. Of course, they are incredible, but they were not built quite at the time that our railways were built. The Government are very focused: reliability is the Secretary of State’s number one priority, aside from safety. That is why we are investing £44.1 billion in our railways in the next control period. Network Rail published its strategic business plans a few days ago, and they are now with the independent regulator, the Office of Rail and Road, for further scrutiny.

[Lord McLoughlin (Con)]

My Lords, I draw attention to my interest in the register as chairman of Transport for the North. While I welcome what the Secretary of State has brought forward, which takes effect next Monday—the operator of TPE being the operator of last resort from next week—does my noble friend agree that it will not necessarily be a silver bullet? Until industrial relations are brought back to reality and a good working relationship with train drivers is accepted, we will still have disrupted services—and the huge amount of money that is presently being spent on the trans-Pennine upgrade.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I absolutely agree with my noble friend. The railways are in a very poor financial place at the moment, with revenues between £50 million and £130 million less than they were before. That is why we must see reform of the railways if they are to have a viable future. That reform can happen only if we get the co-operation of the unions, which I am sure want to ensure a long-term future for their workers. I am grateful for all the work that my noble friend does in the north. The Secretary of State has asked officials to review services across the north to look for performance improvements and delivery certainty, and is looking to work with northern mayors and other stakeholders to make those improvements.

Network Rail: Funding and Reliability

Lord McLoughlin Excerpts

Wednesday 26th April 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, once again we shall address the notion of dividend payments, because it is really important that we are clear about it. The dividend payments declared during the financial year 2022 related to periods far preceding that 2022 period, and therefore were earned by the train operating companies under contracts that were in existence at that time. One cannot retrospectively go back and take away money without completely tearing up the contracts and starting again. Maybe a Labour Government would do that, but we will not. We will stick to the contract and work with the industry, and we will get improvements to our rail system that way.

[Lord McLoughlin (Con)]

Can my noble friend reassure the House of the vast importance that the Government attach to the whole rail industry, and the fact that it is incredibly important to our economy? To get that investment, we also need to see levels of service, which is the responsibility of the train operators but the rail unions too. To make the case for investment, we have to have good services.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My noble friend is absolutely right. Sometimes it saddens me greatly how some of the unions are potentially undermining the long-term future of our rail sector. ASLEF train drivers withdrew, without warning, their rest-day working agreement. I now understand that a new rest-day working agreement was agreed, which would have vastly improved services on the TransPennine Express. However, within 24 hours, ASLEF then withdrew again on an entirely unconnected matter. Once again, we are left without rest-day working. There is a very easy way to improve services, which is to encourage the unions to reach an agreement with the TOCs, particularly on rest-day working.

Bus Services

Lord McLoughlin Excerpts

Thursday 30th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, it is very disappointing that Arriva decided it was no longer willing to take part in those projects. Other bus operators are taking part in projects elsewhere in the country, and indeed Arriva itself is still participating in other separate zero-emission buses projects. Essentially, we very much hope that it will come back to the table once, and if, passenger numbers increase.

The reduction in passenger numbers is related to changes to concessionary travel and to people going to work and working from home. We believe that we have stabilised at this point, and now we look forward to bussing back better.

[Lord McLoughlin (Con)]

My Lords, I draw your Lordships’ attention to my registered interest as chairman of Transport for the North. May I ask my noble friend to give some long-term assurance on the amount of support we are giving to bus companies? What has been done has been very welcome, but there is uncertainty about what will happen after 30 June, and buses are needed as a reliable form of public transport for our country.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I absolutely accept what my noble friend is saying. From the Government’s perspective, we have had to see what happens to patronage and where service levels have ended up, given the current levels of support. We are also looking at the impact of the £2 bus fare cap. All these things are going into our analysis of what we may be able to do to support the bus sector after 30 June.

Bus Industry Support

Lord McLoughlin Excerpts

Thursday 16th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am not entirely aware of the strategy that the noble Baroness is talking about. We have a bus strategy and we absolutely stand by that strategy. We think that the elements within it work, but what we are dealing with at the moment—as indeed are many other transport modes—is a significant reduction in patronage. We therefore need to think about how we get the best value for money with the support that we can give, while also encouraging local transport operators to play their part.

[Lord McLoughlin (Con)]

My Lords, I declare my interest as chairman of Transport for the North. Bus usage has not gone back to the level that it was pre-pandemic; I think the figures at the end of March 2022 were 2.8 billion passengers as opposed to 4.1 billion passengers the year before the pandemic. Can my noble friend tell us what progress has been made with the announcement of the capping of bus fares nationally? Has that had an impact on usage? What are the longer-term plans for that cap?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My noble friend is absolutely right that the £2 bus fare cap is an important intervention for us to properly understand the relationship between bus fares and patronage. There are 140 operators over 4,700 routes that have taken up this bus fare cap and the Government are investing £135 million in it. We are evaluating it as we go along, and we will of course make public those findings as soon as we can.

Northern Ireland and Great Britain: Regional Connectivity

Lord McLoughlin Excerpts

Monday 13th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

As the noble Baroness will be aware, the Government announced a reduction in domestic air passenger duty. That comes into force from April 2023—next month—and will be a 50% cut in domestic air passenger duty. As I explained, we work with many of the regional airlines to consider regional connectivity. We will be looking at what we can do around slots but, as I said, services to Northern Ireland in particular are pretty much back to where they were in 2019.

[Lord McLoughlin (Con)]

My Lords, in drawing attention to my entry in the register of Members’ interests, may I ask my noble friend, when she looks at the case for regional connectivity—be it with Northern Ireland or Scotland—to ensure that the Government have a very strong bias towards protecting those vital slots in some of our larger airports?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My noble friend will be well aware that the Government have limited levers when it comes to slots. However, there are some things that we can do. Slots are allocated by an independent slots co-ordinator. We set out in Flightpath to the Future that we would consult on some elements of slots reform. We still intend to that and, in doing so, we will consider very carefully regional connectivity and how we can ensure that slots are available.

Train Services: North of England

Lord McLoughlin Excerpts

Monday 27th February 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, I went to Liverpool the Friday before last; I got there on time and I returned on time. There are journeys across the country, and across the north, that work on time and to a great level of passenger experience. However, it is the case that, where services are not working properly, we need to hold the operators to account and make them better.

[Lord McLoughlin (Con)]

My Lords, I draw attention to my interest as chairman of Transport for the North. There is no doubt that rail passengers in the north have had a torrid time, be it on TPE, Avanti or Northern. What can the Government do to reassure travelling passengers in those areas directly affected that the train companies have now got the right mechanisms in hand to ensure that future services will improve, whether it is industrial relations or other related matters? There is an issue around P-coding, but P-coding does give forward notification and that should be counted in the overall cancellations.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

There are many things that the Government are doing, because not all train operating companies in the north are the same; they all have slightly different challenges and some have been able to address those challenges more quickly than others in certain circumstances. The challenges fall into three areas. The first is absence and sickness, which is higher than it really should be, and that needs to be addressed. The second is rest day working and overtime. Noble Lords will all know about the national industrial action that happens periodically, and there is also other industrial action around rest day working and more localised disputes. Those are having very significant impacts on services. The last, in some circumstances, is driver departure, as some drivers are choosing the leave the industry. As my noble friend points out, those are the sorts of things we have to consider. We have got action plans for each of the train operating companies, but each one will have slightly different challenges to address.