Lord McKenzie of Luton
Main Page: Lord McKenzie of Luton (Labour - Life peer)Cities and Local Government Devolution Bill [HL]
Lord McKenzie of Luton Excerpts“Devolution: annual report
(1) The Secretary of State must lay before each House of Parliament an annual report about devolution for all areas within England pursuant to the provisions of this Act.
(2) The report shall include information on—
(a) the areas of the country where agreements have been reached; (b) the areas of the country where proposals have been received by the Secretary of State and negotiations have taken place but agreement has not yet been reached;(c) additional financial resources and public functions which have been devolved as a result of agreements; and(d) the extent to which consideration has been given by a Minister of the Crown to the principle under section (Devolution statements) that powers should be devolved to combined authorities or the most appropriate local level except where those powers can more effectively be exercised by central government.(3) The annual report shall be laid before each House of Parliament as soon as practicable after 31 March each year.”
Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab)
My Lords, I start by declaring my interest as a vice-president of the LGA. I shall speak also to Amendment 2, which we consider to be consequential. In moving this amendment, I welcome the support of the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, and the LGA.
Throughout our consideration of the Bill there has been an explicit recognition that it is an enabling framework Bill. Specifically, it could enable, by order, the transfer of any function of any public authority to a combined authority, and for the mayoral combined authorities some or all those functions could be exercisable only by a directly elected mayor. The scope has been widened by government amendments relating to single authorities. We support those amendments and will be considering them later today. That is being supplemented by a fast-track process and by relaxations on what can qualify as a combined authority.
Our approach to the Bill has been supportive of its thrust—not to seek to stifle the process of devolution and the innovation that it can engender but to endeavour to understand the parameters of the Government’s willingness to devolve, to ensure that devolution is fairly available to local authorities across England and to make sure that the approach is comprehensive. As we have sought more detail, the Government have resisted being prescriptive, and the answer has always been to the effect that they stand prepared to listen to any propositions from local authorities and will evaluate them on a case-by-case basis. Nothing is seemingly off the table, there are no constraints on the capacity of the Government to respond, there is no programme with priorities, everything is possible in the best of all possible worlds, and deals are done behind closed doors with announcements at politically propitious moments.
When we sought to put some structure in the process and to publish a forward strategy, it was suggested by the noble Lords, Lord Heseltine and Lord Bichard, that this would give central government an opportunity and leverage to claw back some of the powers that they are about to lose. Therefore, we have moderated our approach, as Amendment 2 in particular will indicate.
Hitherto, the only parliamentary oversight on offer has been the affirmative process for the relevant orders and the debate in both Houses of Parliament. We know from experience that this gives restricted effective oversight. The commitment to expand the process with individual reports covering matters laid down in government Amendment 33 and related expanded provisions, is to be welcomed, but that covers only part of what is required. It addresses individual deals at the time they are made, and, when we come to discuss these later, we will explain that this will not necessarily be comprehensive. As we have seen in the case of Manchester, devolution arrangements can evolve, and not all components would require a Clause 6 order—the trigger for the Government’s additional report. Much of the proposed health devolution in the case of Greater Manchester does not appear to need the provisions in the Bill at all.
Therefore, the amendment calls for an overall annual report on the progress of the devolution: agreements reached, work in progress, functions transferred and resources devolved. Each year, such a report would provide the opportunity to take stock of progress across the country. It would be an opportunity to see whether and how devolution was working for different types of authorities—the counties as well as the metro cities—how devolution was shaping up in rural and coastal areas, whether all relevant authorities had been able to take advantage of similar functions, and whether devolved funding was fair. It could be a driver of best practice and would serve as a bulwark against those who might be tempted to linger in the slow lane. The annual report would be part of the process of holding government, central and local, to account in that it would shine a spotlight on them.
It would also be an opportunity to see progress on the devolution statements referred to in Amendment 2. This amendment was inspired by some of the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Bichard, in Committee, when he commented on the propensity of government—civil servants and politicians—to seek to constrain the process of devolution. The concern expressed was that they would seek to claw back powers through other legislation; that as we focus on this Bill there will be moves in that other legislation to prevent real devolution happening.
It was suggested that each piece of primary legislation coming before Parliament should have a devolution test—a devolution litmus test, if you like. The Minister who has introduced a Bill in either House should be required to make a devolution statement before Second Reading to the effect that the provisions in the Bill are compatible with the principles of devolving power to the most appropriate level. A statement itself would not, of course, directly trigger a process of devolution but would concentrate the minds of government and be a reminder that if the Government are serious about devolution, it should be the collective responsibility of central and local government and of all departments.
I hope the Government will accept Amendment 1 and the consequential Amendment 2 as being entirely supportive of their devolution agenda and a positive contribution to the Bill. I beg to move.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
I thank the noble Baroness for her intervention. The process undergone by Greater Manchester, Norwich, Cornwall and other places can act as a learning tool for small seaside towns which I agree absolutely may not, in the early stages, have the capacity or capability to think about what might be appropriate. We learn from others and this is an important process.
The noble Lord, Lord Liddle, referred to our discussion on Cumbria. Either myself or my noble friend Lord Heseltine—or indeed both of us if we can manage to get our diaries free on the same day—are looking forward to meeting with Cumbrian representatives to discuss what I thought were some very constructive points raised by the noble Lord in the meeting.
The noble Lord, Lord Kerslake, talked about the four reasons why devolution is not pursued. We understand and share the noble Lord’s analysis of why devolution can be slow or non-existent, and he gave a very pertinent example which I recognise from my local government days. However, where we differ is that I doubt whether these proposals for annual reports and statements are an effective means of challenging either silo working in Whitehall or the disruption, fear of difference and nervousness at the local level. The strong drive given by the Bill, backed by the early devolution of major powers and budgets, thus creating a whole culture of devolution, is the best way forward, not annual reports which may themselves become prescriptive, or at least perceived by local areas as a direction from the Secretary of State. Given those points, I hope that the noble Lord will feel happy to withdraw his amendment.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in support of the two amendments before us, with of course the exception of the Minister. We heard from the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, about the importance of not doing things piecemeal, and the pertinent point, reiterated by my noble friend Lady Hollis, that if no general principles are laid down, an annual report would at least help smaller authorities to understand what the parameters are in practice. We also heard the passionate commitment of the noble Lord, Lord Kerslake, to the Bill, but he described these amendments as practical and sensible and a powerful antidote to the prospect of government from the centre drawing back the thrust of devolution. My noble friend Lord Warner talked about help with laggards, and said that the amendments would help us to understand the pattern. My noble friend Lord Liddle does a great selling job for Cumbria, which I hope it appreciates.
I say to the Minister that none of this would stop the “come and have a conversation” approach that the Government are pursuing. If anything, it should aid that process because it would alert those who have not yet engaged to the prospects—what is actually going on around the scene. This is a very positive contribution. Of course, nothing in these amendments is in conflict with Amendments 33 and 70, which will be moved in due course. Indeed, we can see those reports as a component of the annual report, but not sufficient.
I hope I did not say that Greater Manchester would not need to rely on Clause 6 at all. My point was that not all of the deal is dependent on the use of Clause 6. If the extra reporting that the noble Baroness is talking about is tied to that Clause 6 order process, it would not necessarily embrace all of what is going on in practice.
I had hoped that we could agree on this. The amendments are genuinely meant to help the Bill but the Government have made their position clear. On the basis that Amendment 2 is consequential on Amendment 1, I certainly would like to test the opinion of the House on Amendment 1.
“Devolution statements
(1) A Minister of the Crown who has introduced a Bill in either House of Parliament must, before the second reading of the Bill, make a devolution statement to the effect that in his view the provisions of the Bill are compatible with the principle that powers should be devolved to combined authorities or the most appropriate local level except where those powers can more effectively be exercised by central government.
(2) The statement must be in writing and be published in such a manner as the Minister making it considers appropriate.”
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, I move this formally on the basis that it is accepted as consequential. If it is not, I would like to test the opinion of the House.
The Lord Speaker (Baroness D'Souza)
The Question is that Amendment 2 be agreed to. As many as are of that opinion will say “Content”, the contrary “Not Content”. The Contents have it.
“( ) An order under subsection (1) shall not be used as a condition for agreeing to the transfer of local authority or public authority functions.”
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, in moving Amendment 3, I shall speak also to Amendment 4 when I wind up, after we have heard from the noble Lord, Lord Shipley. Amendment 3 would prevent the order-making power of the Secretary of State for the creation of a directly elected mayor of a combined authority being used as a condition for agreeing to transfers of local authority or public authority functions to such an authority. I acknowledge straightaway that the order-making power generally becomes available only if the combined authority has made a proposal or consented to an elected mayor, but that this proposal or consent may not be freely made if it is clear in advance that the Government will insist on this as part of the price, or the price, of a deal.
In last week’s Budget speech, the Chancellor of the Exchequer was clear that the expanded devolution for Greater Manchester and the work in progress with Sheffield and Liverpool city regions and Leeds and West Yorkshire for far-reaching devolution of power was in return for the creation of directly elected mayors. It seems that the door is open for some devolution without having an elected mayor, and we discussed in Committee on 22 June the view expressed by the noble Baroness’s colleague, James Wharton, about there being no necessity to insist on having a mayor when something less—a Manchester-type deal—is preferred. However, we never received an answer about what “something less” amounted to, and perhaps the Minister could help us further today, as it is important that we get this on the record.
This is not an anti-elected mayor amendment. It allows that combined authorities should not have to seek an elected mayor when they have alternative models of governance and leadership which they consider best suits their circumstances. Of course, government would be able to evaluate these models as part of the devolution process. Currently, there are a variety of elected mayors of varying political persuasions—Lib Dem, Labour, Conservative and independent—in varying types of authority, including London and regional boroughs, unitary met boroughs and non-met districts. They are overwhelmingly men, with some elections preceded by referendums and some not. Of the cities required to have mayoral referendums in 2012, only Bristol agreed, but it now wishes to change its mind and is blocked from doing so—which is why we support Amendment 74 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Janke. Indeed, it is unfortunate that the Bill perpetuates this situation and denies a combined authority the right to revoke its decision about a directly elected mayor without disbanding the authority.
We know that there are those who are strongly supportive of the directly elected mayor model in all parties—certainly in mine—but there are those who are strongly opposed. Those in favour would argue that the scale of what exists in England at present, with the exception of London, does not particularly reflect the role envisaged for the mayor under this Bill. This may be so. We accept that it needs individuals of integrity, experience and vision who can speak with authority and hold their own with their counterparts domestically and internationally. Not only elected mayors can fulfil this role, which is why we consider that individual combined authorities should have the opportunity to bring forward alternative models.
It seems somewhat strange that the Government are rightly prepared to pass responsibility, power and resources on a very substantial scale to combined authorities and trust them to deliver on vital parts of the Government’s agenda, especially the need for growth, yet seek to straitjacket them on the issue of the directly elected mayor. It seems out of balance with the whole thrust of what devolution is all about. The whole approach is characterised by the Government as a willingness and eagerness to listen to what local authorities propose and to respond accordingly. The insistence on directly elected mayors jars with this. I beg to move.
Lord Heseltine
The first point on Amendment 3 is that it removes the nature of the deal with government that there will be a mayor. It is designed to remove that condition. The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, has a different version, which has another delaying process, about consultation. But what does that mean? It means referenda. It means consultation of one sort or another. This is a delaying process.
I have no doubt that noble Lords all over this House are fully aware that from one end of England to another local councillors, leaders and industrial partners from the local enterprise partnerships are way past the debate that we are having today. They are actually designing the deals that will make this a reality. In his speech last week, the Chancellor listed Liverpool, Leeds, Sheffield and the possibility of the West Midlands as being already in the process of evolving the most detailed proposals to put to the Government. The condition behind all that is a directly elected mayor, as the noble Lord, Lord Smith, said in this House not that long ago. It is a deal. He said: “We did not particularly like directly elected mayors but the offer was too good”. I therefore urge noble Lords to consider carefully whether we should be concentrating on whether there is a mayor, because there will be no deal in the circumstances we are talking about unless there is a mayor. What we should be talking about is how to ensure that the deal that is done is of the scale and level of imagination that meets the extraordinary offer that has been made.
I was surprised and disappointed when the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, asked: “How can one man, or woman, cope with such a situation?”. Look outside this country and show me one where there is any alternative form of local government except what the Bill is proposing. There are senators in America with huge power. Germany has the Länder and France the departments. They seem perfectly capable of handling this massive responsibility. Are the English so impoverished as people that we have no one in our country capable of being the equal of what every advanced economy seems perfectly happy to deal with?
Anyone who has looked at this legislation will know that this is not the creation of a dictator. The checks and balances that exist within the negotiation that has been concluded with Manchester, for example, are very clear. The existing councils that make up the combined authority retain very large powers. They are part of an arrangement with the elected mayor that provides very substantial checks and balances.
The heart of this matter is that the Chancellor, in arguing for his deals, is looking, as my noble friend Lord Deben said, for a range of men and women capable of exercising leadership and appealing to the local community across the board. That is what we hope to see. In doing that, there is an offer from government to transfer power in a way that is outside any experience that any of us have had, with the exception, partially, of London.
Those of us who care about this issue are very familiar with Leicester and Liverpool, both of which have Labour mayors. One is a former Member of another place and the other a council leader who persuaded his colleagues to allow him to become a mayor. In talking to those who hold this responsibility, I have learned that their experience of the change in stature that takes place when they are seen as being a mayor—an internationally understood and recognised position—is extraordinary.
I hope very much that we in this House can perhaps move on from the minutiae of the Bill to the implementation of the legislation at the greatest possible speed. I really hope that your Lordships will catch up with where local government and the local enterprise partnerships are already. They are making this happen now. It is an exciting prospect that I never thought to see happen.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
Forgive me for interrupting, but before the noble Lord sits down will he clarify something? A statement was made at the other end that, if an area wants a deal that is not the size of Greater Manchester, it may not have to have an elected mayor. Can we have some clarity on what the lesser deal is that does not cause the imposition of an elected mayor?
Lord Heseltine
That is a very good question and rightly asked. Where the difficultly comes is that no one is imposing a deal. The Government are not saying that A, B, C and D must happen—the noble Lord shakes his head, but I had the privilege to sit in some of the negotiating discussions that have taken place and know that no Minister is saying that this is the prescription. That is what we would have done. All my life, that is what happened: it was not a question of whether an area wanted power over housing; it was a question of filling in 75 forms before building a council house. I had all those forms on my wall in the Department of the Environment—70 forms, about the slope of the roof and the pitch of the eaves. That is what we did. And here we are talking about trying to impose some sort of structure of deal in the detail, which the Government are not going to do.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
The noble Baroness’s question is the subject of later amendments. Certainly, the London model is not being considered in Greater Manchester. However, during the Bill’s passage, there has been a lot of discussion on the need to strengthen scrutiny.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
Before the Minister moves on, will she clarify what is included in “major powers”? What are major powers and less than major powers or minor powers? That is the dividing line in this matter.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
As noble Lords will see, an example of major powers is devolution for Greater Manchester. That is an example of a suite of major powers.
I should like to make some progress. The noble Lord, Lord Grocott, referred to Amendment 3, which would obstruct our policy of allowing major powers to be devolved to a city because there is a necessary single point of accountability—that is, the mayor. The noble Lord also said that people should have a referendum to decide whether to have a metro mayor. We recognise that in the past some cities have rejected the opportunity to elect a mayor. This time it is an entirely different proposition. It is about putting in place a devolution deal which the democratically elected representatives of the place have agreed with government. Part of that deal is the necessity for robust local governance for the new devolved powers, and for a powerful point of accountability such as a mayor. It is for the elected representatives of an area who have a democratic mandate to decide, in discussions with government, whether they wish to introduce a mayor and benefit from major devolved powers.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, I do not and will not have a list. As I have said repeatedly, what powers are devolved will be up to agreement between local areas and the Secretary of State.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, this has been an extensive and good debate and the time moves on, so forgive me if I do not respond to each point that noble Lords have made, whether it was as a trip through history about what has happened to elected mayors or the stage that we have reached today. The problems with the London system, some of the time, and the difficulties that other areas have found were mentioned.
I would like to challenge the proposition that the amendments are wrecking amendments. I am bound to say to the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, that that really is not the case. It was not the intent and is not their substance. If we look at the thrust of all the amendments that are before us today and will be on Wednesday, they are overwhelmingly about trying to improve the Bill and achieve the very thing that he wants and campaigns for. It is unhelpful to characterise these amendments as wrecking when, in total, we are trying to improve the Bill so that devolution can be delivered across the country.
The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, asked the pertinent questions about major powers—what is in and what is out—and of course we got the usual answer. I do not think that anybody sees it as a credible response to say that nothing is being imposed on people because the Bill is a framework Bill, in circumstances where the Government make it absolutely clear from the start that you can get certain powers only if you have an elected mayor. That is not a process of not imposing anything on anybody. It is making sure that the price paid is very clear up front, in some circumstances. It is very unclear in other circumstances what price will be asked, depending on what powers are available. I am bound to say that whether we are in favour of or against elected mayors instinctively, we did not see it as a ladder up which budding leaders could climb—and even less so a retirement job for ex-Cabinet Ministers. I did not think that that was the process we were involved in today.
The noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, made a powerful speech reiterating his passion for devolution and what it could lead to. We support all that but he himself said that if somebody comes up with something it will be considered, so seemingly from his point of view there is not an inevitable imposition of an elected mayor. The noble Lord may feel that something credible would not come up, and he may or may not be right. But even he seemed to recognise that there should be scope, which is effectively what Amendment 3 is seeking. It may be, in the terms used by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, that the wording is imperfect but then it is the job of government at Third Reading to tie that up.
Lord Mackay of Clashfern
I am sorry to interrupt—it is not my habit—but the present Bill simply gives a discretion to the Minister, absolutely free. There is no limit on that discretion to having an elected mayor. It is a discretion to consider the particular proposals made. I understood the Government to have said in the debate that the idea of an elected mayor, while very attractive from their point of view, was not essential for every proposal that might come forward.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, we accept that there is a discretion but we know that that discretion will inevitably be operated in certain ways in certain circumstances. The Government will insist upon an elected mayor and the discretion, which I accept is permitted under the Bill, will be exercised in a certain way. This is about trying to get clarity or preclude that being an inevitable part of a deal. If somebody wants an elected mayor and can put forward governance arrangements and credibility around all that, fine. But if they do not, why should that not inevitably be considered fairly by the Government in the negotiations which go on?
Lord Mackay of Clashfern
Nothing that I have seen anywhere so far says that the Government can give powers under these proposals only if there is an elected mayor. It is left completely open. All this seems to be based on is some suggestion that that is what the Government want to do. However, the Government have proposed a Bill that does not have that in it. I cannot myself see why that discretion should be limited.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
The noble and learned Lord is right that there is a discretion in the Bill, but we know, alongside that, that the Government have made it absolutely clear that an elected mayor will be insisted upon in a range of circumstances. We are seeking to determine that that insistence should be precluded, not that the option should not be available, if that is what a combined area wants. The starting point should not be that you must have an elected mayor in that range of circumstances.
It seems that there is some recognition that there should be discretion for combined authorities to come forward—the Minister has said that. It is all very well recognising that, but at the same time they are saying, in this place and in the Chancellor’s Statement at the other end, that you have to have an elected mayor, come what may. There is an inconsistency between those positions, and this amendment is trying to clarify that inconsistency. We do not think that there should be that insistence. If people want this and can come forward with a credible model, fine; but if the starting point of these deals is that you must have an elected mayor, that is wrong and we oppose it.
This a great shame because there is substantial agreement across the Chamber, I think, about the thrust of the Bill. The one point where it jars is this obsession and insistence on an elected mayor—not in the Bill itself but in terms of how we know it will be applied and how we know it is being applied in the case of Greater Manchester and other areas. That is the point that divides us. Given the support that we have across the piece for the Bill, it is a great shame that we have to divide on this, but I propose to divide and test the opinion of the House.
Lord Scriven
My Lords, I have some practical experience of this as a former council leader. When I became leader of the council in Sheffield, we had an economic development agency which met in private. Everything was in private—advice, meetings and papers—because it was deemed to be somehow arm’s length and pseudo public sector. Through a very hard-fought and long battle, I thought that it was absolutely right that that was dealt with in public, because huge amounts of public money were being spent on behalf of the people of Sheffield. The reason to write this in the Bill is to open up the advice and the decisions made.
I hear what the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, says, but exactly the same arguments were used in another place when what became the Freedom of Information Act was published. With freedom of information, a lot of the advice given now could be made public. This is just the next step concerning that type of advice. I see no reason why, if someone wishes to understand a decision in the area where they live, where multi-billions of pounds are spent on their behalf to improve their lives, they cannot be privy to some of the advice given before someone makes a decision. It is really important that both the press and the public understand the process that has been carried out to reach a decision, not just the decision itself.
My recent practical experience in local government, in an area of economic development, makes me believe that this is the right thing to do. Open decision-making is good decision-making; closed decision-making is bad decision-making, on the whole. It is really important for the press and the public to be able to understand both the decision and the process of how their taxes are spent—to know how decisions are made to improve their area. It is for those reasons, both the practical ones based on what I saw in Sheffield and to take freedom of information one step further, that it is really important that people can understand the advice given to and the process followed by politicians, the mayor or the combined authority to enable them to come to a decision.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, we are fully committed to openness and transparency in the proceedings of local government, combined authorities and mayoral combined authorities. We would draw the line so that the same rules operated as for local government currently. We would have reservations about taking it back beyond that—certainly taking it into the area of advice.
That raises a question; I do not know whether the Minister can help us with it. When there are discussions and negotiations about devolution deals, are they in the public domain?
Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville (Con)
My Lords, my first intervention in proceedings on the Bill were when we were discussing the same subject in Committee. There were references then, as there have been today, to the 1972 Act. The particular episode to which I referred in that previous debate was the Private Member’s Bill introduced by Margaret Thatcher in the 1959-64 Parliament, which was her first real appearance on the parliamentary scene. My late noble kinsman sat on the Front Bench throughout the passage of her Bill.
I have taken an interest in the subject going back a great deal further, to that moment in 1809—we were fighting the French at the time—when the Treasury intervened to say that three particular government departments which it had nominated must by 12 noon on any day, on anything which had been in any way controversial or interesting in the morning’s papers, agree the Government’s position, which would then literally, in the language of government, become the line to take thereafter for the rest of the day. When I served as a Treasury Minister, the reason that I had responsibility for the Central Office of Information went back to that fact, because it was the Treasury which had set up the system in the first place.
I want also to say a brief word about the passage of the then Greater London Authority Bill, because it was the first Bill under which the evidence of those advising councillors in local authorities could be made available to the public at large. I am not in any way intending to pour anything hostile into wounds that are long since healed, but the Minister in charge of that Bill made an extremely loyal and long-term defence of the fact that that provision was in the text of the Bill—which it was not. I am afraid that I did go on pestering the Minister in charge of the Bill—no names, no pack-drill—as to where in the text of the Bill, which we were looking at, that information was. Eventually, he broke down and admitted that they were planning to do it and were going to put down an amendment, but had not actually put down the amendment before. It was very loyal of him to have defended and covered for the junior Minister, the Minister who should have put it down.
This has long been an interest and I shall be very interested indeed to hear what my noble friend says in responding to the propositions that have been put in front of her.
“( ) An order under sub-paragraph (2) must include provision for an appointment process for any other person who may exercise any PCC functions of the mayor.”
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, the amendment requires that on page 19, line 10, we should insert:
“An order under sub-paragraph (2) must include provision for an appointment process for any other person who may exercise any PCC functions of the mayor”.
This is a straightforward issue. The amendment deals with the important role of the PCC taken on by the mayor and the extent to which its functions can be passed to others. It seeks to ensure that there is a proper appointments process to put that into effect. I beg to move.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, for being so brief in moving the amendment. As he said, it seeks to insert a new provision into new Schedule 5C to ensure that the Government must provide, by order, an appointment process for any other person who may exercise any of the PCC functions of the mayor.
The amendment is not necessary because the Government have already committed on the Floor of this House to apply Schedule 1 of the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Act 2011 to metro mayor areas by order where PCC functions are being transferred. Paragraphs 9 to 12 of that schedule set out an appointments process for senior posts below a PCC, including for the post of deputy PCC. This involves the scrutiny of any proposed appointment by a police and crime panel. I reiterate that we intend to apply these provisions to metro mayors by order to ensure that such appointments are properly scrutinised in the same way. The role of the dedicated police and crime panel will, of course, continue.
However, it will almost certainly be necessary to amend these provisions to some extent before they can be applied directly to a particular metro mayor area, given the different structures and posts which might exist in different areas, hence our proposal to implement this by order. I wish to be clear that we intend that there will be an appointments process for senior posts that will be based on that set out in Schedule 1 to the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Act 2011. All posts other than that of the deputy PCC mayor, and which support discharging the mayor’s PCC functions, will be subject to the standard local government requirement that appointments must be made on merit, as set out in Section 7 of the Local Government and Housing Act 1989. This requirement currently applies to all appointments made by PCCs other than the post of deputy PCC, which may be a political appointment, albeit still subject to scrutiny by the panel. Appointments to all other posts below mayor on policing matters would have to be made on merit alone, and appointments to senior posts will additionally be subject to scrutiny by a police scrutiny panel.
I hope that reassures the noble Lord and that he feels content to withdraw the amendment.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Baroness for that much longer explanation than mine in moving the amendment. It is perfectly satisfactory and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, as we have heard, Amendments 21 to 24 require that there should be two components of a single precept in circumstances where the mayor for a combined authority takes on the role of the PCC: the policing and the general work component. We have heard that this separation is necessary should different referendum principles be applied to PCC precepts generally, and this is enabled, of course, because the Bill also requires separate accounting for PCC functions. Amendments 16 to 18 have been described as consequential, and we see them as being entirely reasonable.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, it is a great pity that these proposed changes have come forward very late in the day. Certainly, for some of those not caught up in regulatory reform, we will have to unpick some of the intricacies of the Local Democracy, Economic Development and Construction Act 2009. Even with the aid of a Keeling schedule, that takes some time. I perhaps go further than the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, and say that, rather than preserve some right to have a further debate on Wednesday, we should be entitled to come back to this at Third Reading if necessary. A lot of new stuff has been introduced. I would certainly like to take the opportunity of reading what the noble Baroness has said on the record so that we can get our minds round all that. It is not absolutely clear in every respect.
As I understand it, in terms of the key provision, Amendment 62 will provide a fast track to the establishment of a combined authority. Amendments 63 and 64 concern the removal of geographical restrictions on EPBs and combined authorities, and Amendment 65 covers changes to existing economic prosperity boards. We see the benefits of being able to move more swiftly perhaps than circumstances hitherto have permitted, but we need to stand alongside that a caution about not abandoning parts of that process which have made a valuable contribution to the judgments that have been made today.
Amendment 62 would provide an override of the existing requirements of Section 109 to undertake a review and prepare and publish a scheme for combined authorities, which I think the noble Baroness confirmed. That would seem to reverse the current process so that the initiative is with the Secretary of State, who still has to make a judgment about whether a change would improve the exercise of statutory functions in the area. We have had introduced—I think for the first time in our consideration of this Bill—administrative law and what that requires in terms of consultation and other matters. I am bound to say that we need a little time to fully understand what all that entails. Even under the amendment,
“the Secretary of State must have regard to”—
perhaps the Minister can expand on that obligation—a Section 109 scheme if one has been published. If not, what is to underpin the Secretary of State’s judgments? The Minister went through a range of issues in making her presentation. We would certainly like the opportunity to study what is on the record in that respect.
There is the prospect of the Secretary of State consulting persons he considers appropriate, “if any”, and the constituent councils having to agree. But it is unclear what analysis or review the Secretary of State will look to in making that judgment. What is to stop the fast-track approach becoming the norm? Perhaps that is what is intended. Will the Minister confirm whether that is the intention in this regard and that the previous or existing process will now be replaced in total by this fast-track process? Clearly, some further information will come when we get the report of the DPC. We cannot reasonably conclude our deliberations without sight of that report and advice.
Amendment 63 deals with EPBs and Amendment 64 with combined authorities. They appear to address the same issue of geographical restrictions on what can be included in an area. For example, for combined authorities it relaxes the current requirements that the local government areas of a combined authority must be contiguous and that no area not in the combined authority can be surrounded by local authorities that are. As I think has been confirmed by the Minister, this would appear as a “doughnut” formation, or as a combined authority formed from areas that are geographically quite far apart. However, in applying the new rules, the Secretary of State must have regard to the likely effect of the new arrangements on the exercise of equivalent functions in any adjoining local government area. We have no detail on how this test is likely to be applied; perhaps the Minister will say more on that.
Generally, some flexibility on the geographical construction of the combined authority should be welcome, provided there is protection for those authorities that might be surrounded, for example. Given that we are on Report, I was about to say that this would perhaps have to be sorted out in another place, but on reflection I do not think that that is right. The noble Lord, Lord Tyler, is right that we should have a further opportunity to pick up these important issues on Report or at Third Reading. They may be fairly brief amendments, but they touch on the processes that have operated hitherto. To clarify: we are not trying to make life difficult in this respect, but we need to understand the detail of what is proposed and the safeguards that will be there to balance the speedier process that these amendments seek.
Lord Woolmer of Leeds
These proposals are enormously important. I hope very much that we will have time to consider them and to reflect, but I see them as potentially extremely helpful, certainly to Yorkshire.
I will ask for clarification on two matters, but I will study the detail more carefully over the next couple of days. First, I assume that these proposals will apply to extending a current combined authority area, as opposed to establishing a de novo combined authority. I assume that they would apply if an existing combined authority area wished to have discussions to extend its boundaries. Secondly, if I understood the Minister correctly—I apologise that I have not read the proposals in the detail I should have—they would enable an existing combined authority to extend its boundaries, either with contiguous shire districts or potentially even to an authority that does not adjoin the existing combined authority; the word “doughnut” was used. It would be helpful for me to understand whether that is the case.
These are enormously important proposals and a lot of people will be extremely interested to understand them. They could be very helpful in making combined authority areas make a lot of sense in economic terms. Some existing combined authorities, while very useful, could do with extension to a degree.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
It might be helpful to noble Lords if I say that Amendments 62 and 77 are expected to be reached on Wednesday. They are after Clause 9. Therefore, there will be an opportunity to discuss them then if noble Lords wish.
The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, asked about fast-tracking becoming the norm. The amendments have been proposed to enable deals where constituent councils are content to approve deals that are ready, not to rush other areas that might take a bit longer. He also asked what underpins the Secretary of State’s judgment if there is no scheme. It will be the information and the evidence available in the deal. If insufficient information is available for the Secretary of State to make a judgment on whether the tests are met, then the fast-track process cannot be used.
The noble Lord, Lord Woolmer, asked two very useful questions. One was on changing an existing combined authority. The answer is yes, existing combined authorities would be able to be non-contiguous or doughnut-shaped; I am glad he will find that response helpful. He talked about non-adjoining areas. The answer is also yes, that will be possible. I hope that that assists noble Lords.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
Before the noble Baroness sits down, could she clarify this? I think she said that we would reach Amendments 62 and 77 on Wednesday. According to the groupings list, they are in the group that we have just discussed.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, the amendments would be after Clause 9, so they can be discussed then if noble Lords wish.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
We would be very happy to have a further discussion—it is vital that we do—although we would be squeezed for time on Wednesday with lots of other big issues. I thought from what the noble Baroness said that these amendments are not included in the group that we just discussed. According to the groupings list, they should be.