House of Lords: Remote Proceedings

Debate between Lord McFall of Alcluith and Lord Newby

Tuesday 21st April 2020 Lords Chamber

[The Senior Deputy Speaker]

I agree with the noble Lord on Questions and scrutiny; given the environment today, scrutiny is extremely important for both the House of Commons and the House of Lords. His suggestion of doubling the number of Questions to eight could be considered by the Procedure Committee. At our meeting next week, I will re-emphasise his point; if I meet him informally, he will no doubt give me some more advice on what initiatives we can take in this area.

[Lord Newby (LD)]

My Lords, it is already clear from the questions asked that we will go into a long period during which a number of noble Lords will not be able to attend the Lords in person. I therefore reiterate my support for some of the suggestions already made, such as on a hybrid House and voting remotely. Can the Senior Deputy Speaker have as one of his principal aims to bring us into line with what the Commons do so that we are on the same digital platform and so that, as the Commons moves to virtual voting—it is likely to do that more quickly than us anyway—we follow in its footsteps?

[The Senior Deputy Speaker]

I agree entirely with the noble Lord. I have been privy to some of his views on this issue. The technical solutions that have been developed have been designed to meet the different requirements of each House, as the noble Lord is aware. I will certainly keep it as a primary aim to ensure that the points he has made here and in his communications with the Administration and the Procedure Committee are kept to the fore. I reiterate: the Procedure Committee will continue to meet as and when because this is a fast-developing situation.

Palace of Westminster: Restoration and Renewal

Debate between Lord McFall of Alcluith and Lord Newby

Thursday 12th March 2020 Lords Chamber

[The Senior Deputy Speaker]

Again, that is speculation, like the media stories of the past week or two. I will reserve speculation but tell your Lordships that the Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration and Renewal) Act 2019 established a sponsor body and a delivery authority to ensure independent oversight and management of delivery, accountability and costs. That was very important, because we can think back to some projects—I have the construction costs of the Scottish Parliament in mind. In 1997, the White Paper estimated these at between £10 million and £40 million. In 1998, when Holyrood was named as a site, the cost was £50 million. In 1999, the Scottish Parliament voted to continue the project at £109 million, and in 2004, when it was completed, the report of the Holyrood inquiry, led by the late Lord Fraser of Carmyllie, estimated the final cost at £414.4 million. That is why we have established the sponsor body and the delivery authority and built in independent oversight.

[Lord Newby (LD)]

Does the noble Lord recall that when this building was built, the cost and delays incurred were largely caused by incessant political interference in the process? Will he ensure that our colleagues in another place are reminded that the reason we have set up a sponsor body and a delivery authority is to avoid those delays and additional cost and that the consensus across this House is that those bodies should now be fully empowered to get on with it?

[The Senior Deputy Speaker]

They will be fully empowered if we continue with the proposals by April this year. In every discussion that the Lord Speaker and the Speaker have had, that issue has been foremost on the agenda.

Economy: Public Finances

Debate between Lord McFall of Alcluith and Lord Newby

Tuesday 24th March 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, last month’s trade figures were the best for 15 years. No doubt the noble Lord would say that that is not good enough. However, we have spent more money more effectively through UKTI in building up our trade with less traditional countries such as China. Further support was given to that in the Budget.

[Lord McFall of Alcluith (Lab)]

My Lords, in 2010 the Government inherited £786 billion of debt. Five years later that figure is now £1,540 billion—almost double. The Chancellor in his Budget said that the Government were paying the debt down. Was he telling the truth?

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, it is no secret that this Government have borrowed over half a trillion pounds as we have slowly got to grips with the mess we inherited. Debt has come down by about 1% of GDP for each year we have been in government—the level of consolidation that the IMF says is most appropriate in these sorts of circumstances.

Income Tax: Top Rate

Debate between Lord McFall of Alcluith and Lord Newby

Monday 16th March 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, there has been a reduction in the amount paid in bonuses in the City. This will undoubtedly have meant a fall in the amount of tax on those bonuses, but I am sure that the whole House will welcome that development and hope that it will lead to something of a change in bank culture.

[Lord McFall of Alcluith (Lab)]

My Lords, I refer the Minister to a recent ONS study which looked at the combination of direct and indirect taxation and found that the group paying most—paying more than the really well-off—was in the bottom quartile. Is not the big social injustice in the tax system in this country that the poorest are indeed paying the most? That is not helped by the Chancellor, George Osborne, and his cohorts rubbishing social security and welfare payments. Does the Minister not agree that that only compounds and exacerbates the problem that we have in our iniquitous tax system?

[Lord Newby]

But, my Lords, the top 1% of income tax payers is now paying between 27% and 28% of all income tax, which is a higher proportion than at any point during the last Labour Government. The two changes that I have mentioned, which bring in more than £6 billion extra a year, apply only to the highest earners.

Small Businesses: Finance

Debate between Lord McFall of Alcluith and Lord Newby

Wednesday 25th February 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby]

I am extremely grateful to my noble friend for his suggestion.

[Lord McFall of Alcluith (Lab)]

Can the Minister explain why the British Chambers of Commerce has stated that small and medium enterprises are being increasingly left out in the cold by lenders?

[Lord Newby]

As I explained, gross lending to small businesses was up by 25% last year. That is the figure, my Lords. The noble Lord shakes his head, but that is the figure. Banks have not been as open-handed to small businesses as they were before the crash, partly because at that stage in some cases they were lending irresponsibly and partly because they have had to strengthen their balance sheets—something which the noble Lord has been very keen to encourage.

Credit Unions

Debate between Lord McFall of Alcluith and Lord Newby

Tuesday 3rd February 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby]

Absolutely, my Lords, and I commend the noble Lord for his work in this area. Increased collaboration is vital if the sector is to become more competitive and grow. The Credit Union Expansion Project, to which the noble Lord referred and which the DWP is funding to the tune of £38 million, is aimed at doing exactly that—for example, by providing shared back-office services to cut costs. However, the sector would also be strengthened if it were able to speak with one voice, which requires a reduction in the number of trade associations currently operating in the sector.

[Lord McFall of Alcluith (Lab)]

My Lords, our ambitions for the growth of credit unions on a national scale have a long way to go. Given that banks and building societies have extensive networks and operational systems, is there now a case for the Government to consider establishing a community reinvestment Act, as in the United States, as a solution to the problem of providing affordable finance for all individuals?

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, there is scope to look at a whole raft of new initiatives, to make sure that there is access to finance for people on more modest incomes. One development in recent weeks has been agreement with the banks on fee-free basic bank accounts, which will be a good improvement for many people who are currently denied even the most basic bank accounts.

Childcare Payments Bill

Debate between Lord McFall of Alcluith and Lord Newby

Wednesday 17th December 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, I absolutely take that point. However, as my noble friend will be aware, the chairman of the committee wrote to my honourable friend and she replied to the chairman of the committee a couple of days ago, I hope giving useful information which will be for the benefit of the committee.

[Lord McFall of Alcluith (Lab)]

My Lords, on the issue of childcare, as chairman of a civic welfare and benefits group in Scotland, along with my colleagues in the churches, trade unions, local authorities and charities I visited a food bank in Drumchapel last week. We were informed there that over 25% of the clients were working poor, mostly women with childcare needs. That supports research for the Joseph Rowntree Foundation which stated last year that there were more working poor in the UK than non-working poor households. Given that situation, if the Government are to live up to their rhetoric of helping hard-working families, is there not a case for Iain Duncan Smith—who, incidentally, visited Drumchapel—to look at this situation urgently so that we can indeed help the working poor and so that the Government can live up to their promises?

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, the Government are doing a whole raft of things to help the working poor. One of the main reasons why the working poor are quite so poor is that they are not working as many hours as they would like to work. One of the interesting findings from recent survey evidence is that nearly a quarter of employed mothers said that they would increase their working hours if they could arrange reliable, convenient, affordable and good-quality childcare. Many of those are exactly the kind of parents to whom the noble Lord referred.

Bank of England

Debate between Lord McFall of Alcluith and Lord Newby

Thursday 30th October 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, that is an extremely sweeping statement and I would need prior notice before I felt that I could absolutely agree with it in every case.

[Lord McFall of Alcluith (Lab)]

My Lords, in 1999, Alex Salmond described the Bank of England as a “millstone round Scotland’s neck”. Fifteen years later, he was pledging his love and fidelity to it. Does that not prompt the question that, if it was good enough for Alex Salmond as the Bank of England, it is good enough for the rest of us?

[Lord Newby]

I am not sure that that is a general principle that one would wish to apply more widely.

Credit Unions

Debate between Lord McFall of Alcluith and Lord Newby

Thursday 16th October 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby]

The noble Lord is right that the number of members of credit unions and the amount of money involved is a lot less here than it is in some other countries. There are now about 1.1 million members of credit unions. Although by the standards of some other parts of the world that is not very high, it does represent something like an eightfold increase over the past 20 years, so credit unions have been growing. The challenge for everybody now, having got to a firm base, is how to get a step-change up in professionalism and the ability of credit unions to manage larger volumes, and a better marketing campaign to ensure that people understand why credit unions might in many cases be better for them than the traditional banks.

[Lord McFall of Alcluith (Lab)]

My Lords, I bring attention to my membership of the Credit Union Foundation and the Lloyds Banking Group grants committee for credit unions. One of the lessons of the past has been that grant funding has made the sector weaker rather than stronger. Capital ratios are the key. Given that mutuals are unable to raise capital, any proposals by the Government should ensure that the capital allocation of credit unions is improved. Will the Minister keep this point in mind so that we have a credit union sector which is growing, is more stable and can serve the best interests of the poor members of this country?

[Lord Newby]

I begin by recognising the valuable work that the noble Lord does with Lloyds in this respect. The part that the big commercial banks can play, not so much in funding—although that is useful—but also in transferring expertise, is very important. One of the key things now for credit unions in increasing the amount of capital they have at their disposal is to encourage large numbers of people with some relatively small amounts of capital to become members of a local credit union and deposit some capital with it. The work of the Church of England, for example, is potentially very important. There are many members of the church who would be able to join a credit union and put in a relatively small amount of money which could collectively transform the capital position of the many credit unions with a very small capital base.

Income Tax: Top Rate

Debate between Lord McFall of Alcluith and Lord Newby

Tuesday 15th July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, the Government are very keen to ensure that the tax regime is internationally competitive. That is the effect of the corporation tax changes. As the noble Baroness said, it is having a number of beneficial effects.

[Lord McFall of Alcluith (Lab)]

My Lords, Martin Sorrell of WPP said that for large corporations, corporation tax is a voluntary activity. Is that what the Minster meant by his answer to the last question?

[Lord Newby]

It certainly is not. As the noble Lord knows, we have taken the lead internationally to make sure that companies—which for many years in some cases have not paid much tax—will pay a proportionate amount. We have taken the lead in the G20 and the OECD to make sure that we have different rules in place, rather than rules that were designed more than 100 years ago. We are going to see the first fruits of that in September; the long-term effect will be that some companies that have been able to avoid paying tax in the past almost altogether by deciding where they were domiciled will not be able to avoid it in future.

Tax: Aggressive Tax Avoidance

Debate between Lord McFall of Alcluith and Lord Newby

Wednesday 9th July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby]

The noble and learned Lord points to a very important problem. There are over 1,000 tax allowances, all of which have been introduced individually for very good economic development reasons. The problem is that they are now very complicated. Some tax advisers have been extremely creative at finding ways to use these allowances, which were developed for perfectly good reasons, to enable people to avoid their tax.

[Lord McFall of Alcluith (Lab)]

My Lords, is the term “aggressive tax avoidance” not just semantics? Tax avoidance is tax avoidance, whether aggressive or not. By doing this we are encouraging complexity, which is to the benefit of sharp-witted accountants and lawyers. Tolley’s Tax Guide is now 20,000 pages long. I suggest that the Minister should have two ambitions: first, to have the tax book the same length as War and Peace at 1,200 pages. Secondly, he should take up the suggestion of the noble Lord who said that we need to ensure these tax-avoidance schemes are referred to the Treasury first of all to determine whether they are tax avoidance. That would eliminate the complexity.

Payday Loans: Debt Collection

Debate between Lord McFall of Alcluith and Lord Newby

Tuesday 1st July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, there have been recent reports about the Student Loans Company. My right honourable friend David Willetts is in the process of establishing the facts of the practice. The offending letters that the SLC sent out are no longer being sent. Certainly, if it is found that the SLC or any other arm of government has adopted unsatisfactory practices, appropriate and firm action will be taken.

[Lord McFall of Alcluith (Lab)]

My Lords, it is important to note that no fine whatever has been imposed on Wonga. It has been asked only to redress customers at a rate of 8% interest, compared with the 5,853% that it charged its distressed customers. Despite the potential criminality in at least four areas here, Wonga has been allowed to continue as though nothing has happened, portraying itself as the good guy in a bad industry when it is the bad guy in what should be a good industry.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, I think Wonga is finding it increasingly difficult to portray itself as the good guy. That has been demonstrated by this episode. The key thing to point out is that the action of the FCA has resulted in prompt redress and that 45,000 consumers will be getting a payment from Wonga. Until the FCA had the powers that it assumed in April, there was no provision under the previous regime for the OFT to secure redress for customers in that way. If, under the old regime, the OFT had initiated a criminal process, it is quite likely that it would have taken the best part of three years to reach a conclusion; whereas, under this process, consumers have got money back from Wonga very quickly.

Pensions

Debate between Lord McFall of Alcluith and Lord Newby

Thursday 26th June 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby]

The answer is that it may be or it may not be, depending on what people want to do. One can envisage there being cases at workplace level, where there is a workplace scheme, where it is sensible to start off, for example, by having a collective session followed up by individual guidance. The key thing which we want to underline is that individual guidance will be available. As I said earlier, however, not everybody will want to receive it in the same way.

[Lord McFall of Alcluith (Lab)]

My Lords, the Budget Red Book indicates a bonanza for the Treasury in the next few years as a result of this annuities treatment. This policy could have echoes of the pensions mis-selling scandal of the 1980s, which cost £12 billion. If the Government are not clear and unambiguous that this means individual advice, people will be left on their own and be mesmerised. It is a good thing for the Government, but a bad thing for individuals. The Government need to act very quickly on this.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, the Government are acting quickly on it, and we absolutely agree that this must be seen as a good thing for individuals. This scheme is not being introduced to make a short-term improvement in government finances. I remind noble Lords that a number of countries—for example, Australia, Denmark and the US—already have the kind of provision that we are proposing. The FT recently reported that, when the leading finance and pensions expert was asked about this, he said:

“There’s nothing to suggest that Poms are any more stupid than Australians”.

I agree with him.

Economy: Inflation

Debate between Lord McFall of Alcluith and Lord Newby

Tuesday 11th March 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, as my noble friend is aware, we took action in the autumn to reduce household energy bills. In the longer term, the key aim is to ensure that we have sustainable energy supplies; the Government’s energy policies are designed to do just that.

[Lord McFall of Alcluith (Lab)]

My Lords, the figures indicate that in four years’ time, in 2018, typical living standards for a household will be 3.5% lower than they were in 2007, before the financial crash. Does that not indicate that the Government have to be open and honest about the situation, so that, in the Budget next week, the Chancellor will bring forward policies that will assist hard-working families and households in this country who feel the pressure ever so much as the months go past?

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, the GDP is going to be higher in the second half of this year than it was before the crash. We are going to have more people in work. These are the two key determinants of how the average household is going to feel. In the mean time, by taking actions such as freezing fuel duties and increasing the threshold for income tax, we have given some relief to tens of millions of individuals and we intend to maintain those policies.

Economy: Growth

Debate between Lord McFall of Alcluith and Lord Newby

Tuesday 11th February 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, there is increasing evidence from the business community that it believes that its involvement in the Scottish economy would be reduced were Scotland to become independent; for example, in recent weeks, Bob Dudley from BP has said that there would be “big uncertainties” about its continuing investment in Scotland. He is just one of a number of representatives of major firms who have questioned their long-term involvement in the Scottish economy if Scotland became independent.

[Lord McFall of Alcluith (Lab)]

My Lords, the SNP White Paper said that,

“Scottish taxes will fit our distinctive social context”.

That seems curious and inexplicable, but does the Minister agree that in terms of the social context the single market between Scotland and England is crucial, since more than 70% of Scottish exports go to England and any disruption of that market will result in instability and will not be in the interests of either Scotland or the rest of the United Kingdom?

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, I absolutely agree with the noble Lord. The Treasury has done some work on the so-called border effect: what happens to growth if the Scottish economy and those of the rest of the UK are separated by a border. Its best estimate was that over a period of several decades, the Scottish economy could be about 4% poorer than would otherwise be the case, compared to a reduction in the rest of the UK economy of 0.2%. There are much bigger risks for the Scottish economy through independence than there are for the rest of the UK, but both sides would suffer.

Public Sector: Debt

Debate between Lord McFall of Alcluith and Lord Newby

Thursday 23rd January 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, sadly, we are not going to abolish the debt by 2018, although I hope that we shall abolish the annual deficit by then. The Government have set out expenditure plans for 2015-16; how expenditure falls beyond that will, as I said, be the task of the next Government. The parties will set out their plans, and my party has already explained that it would expect further fiscal consolidation to take place, but that a proportion of that fiscal consolidation will need to be borne by the shoulders that are broadest.

[Lord McFall of Alcluith (Lab)]

Is there a case for the Government to establish an education programme to distinguish between the deficit and the debt? Is it not misleading for them to focus only on the deficit, particularly when their actions are making the national debt increase by more than 60% compared with any other European country?

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, the Government are trying to get under control a disastrous fiscal situation that we inherited from the previous Government. I am not quite sure whether the noble Lord is saying that we should cut expenditure more, but if he is, I would be grateful to hear his specific proposals.

Pensions

Debate between Lord McFall of Alcluith and Lord Newby

Thursday 12th December 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, we have discussed many times the fact that low interest rates are a key determinant in supporting growth, and that growth is in the long-term interest of the entire community. The Bank of England has given forward guidance in respect of when interest rates might rise. Monetary policy is firmly in its purview rather than the Government’s.

[Lord McFall of Alcluith (Lab)]

My Lords, the research in this report indicates that insurers can make £35,500 out of a £100,000, 25-year pension pot. That illustrates that this is a dysfunctional market. The Government have been told this for years. Given that the annuities market will double by 2015, is there not a case for the Government to consider a standing commission on pensions, which can look at the industry and pensions in the long term to ensure that people are not ripped off and that they get the best deal for their retirement?

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, as the noble Lord will be aware, the big new development in pensions is around auto-enrolment. In this area, the Government have set a cap on allowable fees, precisely to deal with the problem of high fees going forward. More generally, the FCA is undertaking a thematic review of annuities, which will look at fees among other things. There is a lot going on and we will see action without needing to set up any further bodies to bring it about.

Financial Services (Banking Reform) Bill

Debate between Lord McFall of Alcluith and Lord Newby

Tuesday 26th November 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, I start by saying that we strongly agree with the last point made by the noble Lord; people who fall below the standards of conduct required of them should be held effectively to account. We have been discussing a number of ways in which the Bill will help to bring this about. I also appreciate the concerns of the noble Lord that we should take stock at some point and review whether the new system of rules of conduct has delivered an improvement in behaviour among bank staff—the kind of improvement that we are all agreed we want to see. I am not sure, however, that we need legislation to provide for that.

In the first place, the regulators themselves will keep their rules under review in the normal way. There will be no difference in that respect between rules of conduct for bank staff and any other rules that they make. They will similarly review their policy statements about taking action for misconduct under Section 66, and keep their policies and practices under review too. I expect also that the Treasury Committee in the other place, and possibly also the Economic Affairs Committee in your Lordships’ House, will want to keep such matters under review. Nothing, of course, stops the Treasury from commissioning reviews of these and other matters, if it thinks it appropriate. All these reviews can range as widely or as narrowly as is appropriate. They can cover the full range of matters in FiSMA or other relevant legislation—and any other matter as well.

I comment briefly on the point that the noble Lord made about the work of Sir Richard Lambert. We are putting great faith in Sir Richard Lambert to produce worthwhile movement. Having worked with him on other things in the past, I have considerable confidence in him to do that. However, we will have to see how that unfolds. It requires the banking industry to accept the need to take measures that it has not in the past. Sometimes that has been difficult for it. On the amendment, we do not need a mandate for such a specific review in the Bill itself.

[Lord McFall of Alcluith]

My Lords, given the form of the regulators in the past, the Minister’s words that the regulators will keep the review under review in the normal way are not inspiring. However, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Financial Services (Banking Reform) Bill

Debate between Lord McFall of Alcluith and Lord Newby

Tuesday 26th November 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord McFall of Alcluith (Lab)]

My Lords, Amendment 178 concerns continuous payment authorities. This is an issue that I raised during the passage of the Financial Services Act 2012. Continuous payment authorities are a recurring payment mechanism involving a debit or credit card where the debtor gives his or her card to the company and they contact the bank. Unlike direct debits or standing orders, this allows a firm to take regular payments from a customer’s bank account without having to seek express authority for each payment. When I made this point to the Minister, the noble Lord Lord Newby said that,

“abuse of the CPA is one of the most concerning practices of payday lenders”.—[Official Report, 28/11/12, col. 235.]

Consumer groups, the Law Society and the OFT have expressed ongoing concerns about this issue. The real issue is that the debtor—the customer—is not in full charge of their affairs. The continuous payment authorities do not offer the same guarantee as direct debits or standing orders. In effect, they give the company authority about how much is taken from an individual’s account and when. This is hugely important to those who take out payday loans, whose financial position is tenuous. Unlike direct debits and standing orders, there is no written communication between the individual and the bank. This situation has led to the banks reviewing up to 30,000 complaints from customers since 2009. According to the Financial Conduct Authority, quite a number of those will be eligible for compensation. That authority has said that many of the banks or providers are not cancelling recurring payments to payday loan firms.

Last December, the OFT warned that businesses should not lock customers into CPA traps because people did not know what they were signing up to. The OFT opened formal investigations last November into several payday lenders over aggressive debt collection practices. Their progress report focused on concerns regarding unfair or improper practices:

“Using the CPA in a manner which is unreasonable or disproportionate or excessive in failing to have proper regard to the possibility that a debtor is in financial difficulties”.

This includes,

“seeking payment before income or other funds may reasonably be expected to reach the account”.

The Financial Ombudsman Service was seeing 50 new cases a month at the end of last year. My information is that that number has increased since.

Such blatantly unfair treatment of consumers should not be restricted to a matter of guidance. The new clause that I am proposing ensures that debtors are informed about their rights and that only the debtor may cancel or vary a CPA in communication with the bank. Furthermore, the debtor’s bank is obliged to comply with the debtor’s instructions, as they do with direct debits and standing orders. I suggest to the Minister that in these austere times we ought to legislate to protect such debtors and to ensure a level playing field between the lender and the debtor.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lords, Lord Sharkey and Lord McFall, for raising this very important issue again. The Government wholeheartedly agree that consumers must be protected when they borrow from payday lenders and use other high-cost forms of credit. Payday lenders are causing unacceptable consumer harm and the Government are committed to putting that right.

As noble Lords will know, the Government have taken decisive action to protect borrowers by fundamentally reforming the regulatory system governing these lenders. This House strongly supported the Government’s proposals to transfer the regulation of consumer credit to the FCA during the passage of the Financial Services Bill last year.

The Government have ensured that the FCA has robust powers to protect customers of high-cost lenders. It will thoroughly assess every lender’s fitness to continue to trade. It will put in place much higher standards that firms will have to meet, and those requirements will, for the first time, be binding on firms. It will proactively monitor the market, focusing on the areas most likely to cause consumer harm. The FCA has a broad enforcement toolkit to punish breaches of the rules: there is no limit on the fines it can levy and, crucially, it can force lenders to provide redress to consumers.

The FCA takes up its new regulatory responsibilities in this area on 1 April next year. But it has already demonstrated that it is serious about cracking down on high-cost lenders. Its draft rules, published on 3 October, restrict some of the practices that cause most consumer detriment, and have won widespread support. But we are convinced that further action will be needed to ensure that this market functions in a way that is in consumers’ interests. As noble Lords will be aware, the Government have announced that they will bring forward an amendment to this Bill at Third Reading to require the FCA to use its powers to cap the cost of payday loans.

I will not pre-empt our discussion at Third Reading but I would just like to make a few key points on the need for a cap on the costs of credit. The Government have always kept the case for a cap under review as the market has evolved. With growing evidence, including from other countries, in support of a cap, we believe that now is the right time to give the FCA a clear parliamentary mandate to take action under the powers we have given it to implement a cap on total costs.

The FCA has an important job to do: it must ensure that it designs a cap that works in UK consumers’ best interests and fits the UK market. To do that, it needs to consider the evidence thoroughly, including drawing on the valuable work being undertaken by the Competition Commission to investigate the fundamental problems in the payday market. As the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, has already pointed out, we do not intend to wait until the Competition Commission has finished its work and have committed to implementing the cap in January 2015.

The Government’s commitment this week sends a strong message to lenders: “Do not wait for the authorities to act, raise your game and start charging and treating your customers fairly now”. We will have a full debate on the government amendments at Third Reading—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Newby]

I was going to come on to this point but I will do so now. I did not see “Newsnight” but I read about the report in today’s papers. It seems demonstrably unfair. I have two sons in their 20s. I have no idea whether they take out payday loans but I know that at some point in the next six years one or both of them might think of getting a mortgage—if they keep working hard. It does seem demonstrably unfair that someone taking out 50 quid for a payday loan today could be automatically denied a mortgage in six years’ time. If the noble Lord will permit me, I propose to draw that to the attention of the FCA.

There are two elements to this. First, there is the point that the noble Lord made about what might be on the website to point this out. There is also another issue, which is whether it is reasonable for people offering mortgages automatically to deny them to someone who may have taken out a small payday loan and paid it off rapidly. I do not know, for example, whether that rule applies to somebody who has taken out a loan under the traditional method of door-to-door payday-type loans that we had in this country for many decades. I shall draw that to the attention of the FCA.

I was just beginning to say that we will have a full debate on Third Reading, and I can commit to operating, as the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey suggested, on Committee stage rules. Having sat through many debates in your Lordships’ House, I do not think that, even if I said that we were resistant to noble Lords’ proposals, that would make a huge difference to the behaviour of noble Lords. In any event, I am happy to give that assurance now.

Turning to the amendments before us, starting with that tabled by the noble Lord, Lord McFall, the Government share his deep concern about the potential for consumers to be misled by lenders. It is essential that consumers are well informed of the risks before entering into an agreement. However, I believe the noble Lord’s concerns will largely be addressed by the FCA’s proposed rules, or already exist in legislation.

Regulations made under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 in accordance with the consumer credit directive currently require that creditors provide adequate information to enable the consumer to assess whether a proposed credit agreement is suitable to their needs and financial situation. Requirements on lenders to be clear to consumers are also set out in the OFT’s Irresponsible Lending guidance. These requirements will be transposed into binding FCA rules. The noble Lord was worried about guidance; this is being transposed from guidance into rules.

The FCA has also proposed a tough package of measures to restrict how payday lenders can access money from their customers’ bank accounts via the continuous payment authority mechanism on their debit and credit cards. These include limiting the use of CPAs to two attempts, and banning part payment. The FCA is also proposing to turn the guidance around the use of CPAs from the outgoing regulator, the OFT, into binding FCA rules. Several of the provisions set out in the noble Lord’s amendment are therefore directly covered by these proposed rules, including a requirement for lenders to give the debtor a statement of their rights in relation to the CPA, and the ability of a borrower to cancel a CPA at any time.

The Government believe that the provisions set out by the noble Lord and not reflected in FCA rules will not, in practice, serve to improve consumer protections. Requiring lenders to provide additional information to consumers on their legal rights presents a real risk of information overload and confusion for consumers. As the noble Lord said in Committee, no one wants to be swamped by hundreds of pages of dense legal text. It is also important to balance awareness of legal rights with promoting awareness of the Financial Ombudsman Service, the free service to help consumers resolve disputes. Taking a case to court can be too expensive for consumers.

[Lord McFall of Alcluith]

The issue here is a level playing field for continuous payment authorities, and direct debits and standing orders. There has to be a loud and clear message from the Financial Conduct Authority to banks, which have 30,000 complaints against them at the moment, and to companies, that we cannot tolerate an imbalance between the power and authority of a lender and the debtor, who can be in ignorance about what is happening to their account. If the Minister can assure me that he will send that message to the FCA, which in turn will send out the message that it needs a level playing field, at least that would be a step forward.

[Lord Newby]

Absolutely, I am very happy to do that. I hope that the rules would send that message very clearly, but I am very happy to reinforce it.

I go back to the terms of the amendments. I am concerned that some of the provisions could make it more difficult for a consumer to cancel an agreement—for example, requiring borrowers to sign for cancellation of a CPA. I am confident that the FCA’s proposals will give consumers control with respect to CPAs and in managing their repayments. I strongly support the noble Lord in seeking to protect consumers using the high-cost credit market and ensuring that they know their rights. However, I believe the objectives of transparency and protections for consumers are already provided for by the new regulatory regime; the FCA has already set out the action that it proposes to take in this area.

I turn to the amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey. His proposal would require the FCA to implement a number of rules from the Florida model of payday regulation, including a requirement for a cap on credit. I can give the noble Lord at least some of the assurances that he seeks in terms of the FCA considering the Florida approach to regulating payday lenders very closely, as it decides how to design a cap on the total cost of payday loans for the UK market and make sure that it works effectively here. It will consider rollovers and look, for example, at the experience of Florida with a real-time database.

While I completely support the noble Lord’s desire to learn lessons from other countries’ experience, I have some doubts as to whether it is as straightforward as he thinks to simply import almost an entire regulatory framework from another jurisdiction. The UK has a very different market from other countries, and it is right that the rules governing regulation of payday loans in the UK reflect our own unique national characteristics. The FCA will be charged with doing that, building on the international evidence and examination of the UK market, and drawing on the Competition Commission’s analysis among other things. Therefore, while I share the noble Lord’s commitment to ensuring the UK consumers are protected when they borrow from high-cost lenders, I hope that he will agree that the best way to achieve that is through development of evidence-based rules that are tailored to protect UK consumers. We have a clear action plan to deliver this objective.

The noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, raised the question of the content of the amendments and the relationship between the Government, in setting policy in this area, and the FCA—where the Government stop and the FCA begins. I heard very clearly what he said. The exact nature of the amendment that we will debate at Third Reading is currently being formulated, and I shall make sure that his point is very much in the minds not only of Ministers but of officials as they set about that task.

With those assurances about the amendment that we will introduce, I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

Financial Services (Banking Reform) Bill

Debate between Lord McFall of Alcluith and Lord Newby

Monday 11th November 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby (LD)]

My Lords, on the substance of the Motion of the noble Lord, Lord McFall, as the House knows I am one of the Government’s spokespeople on the Bill, as well as being Deputy Chief Whip.

The Government tabled 155 amendments at Committee stage. By my reckoning, 116 of them were to respond to the report of the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards and were welcomed by members of the commission. The remainder set up the payments systems regulator, and were equally welcomed across the House. All but one of the amendments were tabled more than a week ahead of the Committee stage debate, and with an open letter of explanation addressed to the participants. I believe that this was a classic example of good practice.

Off the Floor, my noble friend Lord Deighton and I and other Treasury Ministers have had highly constructive and productive discussions with those interested in the Bill, and we continue to do so. Committee stage finished on 23 October. Usual practice would have been to have Report stage start a fortnight later on 6 November; instead, it will be on 18 November. That is a degree of measured consideration.

That is the substance of the matter. I will address two further issues. The first is that of the Chief Whip adjusting our future business in response to events. The Chief Whip had to rearrange our provisional forward business but, as she made clear last week at the Dispatch Box, she did so only because of the pressure in the House to delay Part 2 of the lobbying Bill—a position not initiated by the Government. In order to have a proper pipeline of parliamentary debate and proper progress of government business, it is necessary to have legislative business next week. The Financial Services (Banking Reform) Bill was waiting for Report. It was well beyond the necessary minimum interval between stages, and the Opposition Chief Whip made no alternative proposal. I think the Chief Whip not only did the best she could in the circumstances but acted entirely properly and reasonably.

I cannot but regret that the Motion we find ourselves debating was tabled by the noble Lord, Lord McFall, not only minutes before House up on Friday afternoon, but without first agreeing a slot for the debate with the Chief Whip, or even consulting her. I realise that in theory every Lord has equal access to the Order Paper. Of course they do in theory, but that is not how we work in practice.

[Lord McFall of Alcluith]

Let me correct the Deputy Chief Whip. As a member of the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards, I was left in the dark regarding the Chief Whip’s negotiations with the usual channels. I was informed on Friday of the situation. I got on to the Table Office at about 1.30 pm and one of the first things I said was, “Contact the Government Whips so that they know this is going on on Monday”. I would have not needed to have done that if there had been proper channels of procedure between the Whips’ department and our department, and also the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards under the chairmanship of Andrew Tyrie, who has expressed deep regret at this situation. This Bill is different from all other Bills. The Government set up the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards. This is not government legislation; this is legislation that the Government are implementing as a result of a year-long inquiry that they set up. It is unique and different from all other aspects.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, my understanding—and I have not been a Whip as long as a number of noble Lords in their places at the moment—is that if a noble Lord wishes to bring a Motion of this sort, the normal practice is to discuss it with the usual channels before laying it. That did not happen in this case, and I greatly regret it. It is for the good order of the House that that is how we do our business. That is not the substance of our debate this evening, although we have to look to at how we do our procedure.

There are a number of outstanding issues between the Government and the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards. It is proposed that the relevant Treasury Ministers should meet representatives of the commission within the next 24 hours. That offer has been made. Having looked at the outstanding issues, I believe that it will be possible to make progress on most of them, but not necessarily on every last one. That can be done within the next 48 hours. The number of issues between the Government and the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards is relatively small because we have dealt with so many of them already. I strongly urge members of the commission to go ahead with that process in the confident expectation that we will be able to reach an agreement on many of the outstanding issues in the very near future.

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[Lord Newby]

My Lords, the usual channels are always open.

[Lord McFall of Alcluith]

My Lords, the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards has been very open with the Government in everything we have done, and courteous in all our exchanges with them. In light of the heavyweight presence on that commission, in light of the reception it has received in the country and in the knowledge that if anything will change cultural standards in the UK’s financial services, it will be the recommendations of this commission, I should like the Government to reflect on the situation. The Minister should take it back to the Chief Whip and come back and say, “This commission has the best interests of Parliament and the country at heart. It wants time to look at it in a measured way and it is as simple a request as that”. It would be done courteously, and if it needs me to go to the Chief Whip and supplicate, I will be quite happy.

Financial Services (Banking Reform) Bill

Debate between Lord McFall of Alcluith and Lord Newby

Wednesday 23rd October 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord McFall of Alcluith]

My Lords, the Government’s response to every amendment is, “Manana, manana”. There is nothing in the response but, “Tomorrow, tomorrow”. There is, for example, a public consultation that we know nothing about. As noble Lords have said tonight, this is a very modest proposal. The Minister really has the wrong end of the stick here when he asks why we should protect whistleblowers in the financial services industry and what is different here from in the oil and gas industry. The Government themselves think that it is different. Why? Because they appointed the noble Lords, Lord Lawson and Lord Turnbull, and me to a Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards, along with Members of the House of Commons. We spent a year of our lives—10,000 questions and 180 hours in committee—before presenting a report to the Government. That is why the financial services industry is different from others.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, is the noble Lord seriously suggesting that whistleblowing in the financial services sector—we are talking about whistleblowing here—is of a different order of public interest from whistleblowing in, say, the pharmaceutical or oil industry?

[Lord McFall of Alcluith]

We have had the biggest financial crisis ever but not one whistleblower. That is the magnitude of the problem which the Minister does not grasp and that is why we looked at this issue. Goodness gracious, look at the fines: £85 million for Barclays and £13 billion for JP Morgan today. There is a litany we could go through, so what is the problem?

The Government set up a commission to look at culture and standards. What did the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards find? It found that the culture was rotten and the standards were abysmally low. This whistleblowing amendment—a modest amendment—is being put forward to ensure that we have a better culture, and that we have legal and compliance teams in companies that might have the nerve and confidence to go the FCA and say, “Look, there is wrongdoing in this company and we do not feel that we can assuage our conscience on this. We need to report it to the FCA to ensure that we have a better organisation here”. This has failed totally. That is the magnitude of the problem facing us and that is why we have this modest amendment.

The USA was mentioned. We had two witnesses before us from the USA who were very clear that we did not scrape the ground with the FSA. My noble friend Lord Brennan has given his wisdom on the situation in the USA tonight. We are asking the Government and the FCA to look at the experience in the USA to see if that aspect can be adapted. As the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, said, his charity did not have one person from the City. That backs up the evidence that we heard and gives the initiative to the FCA. That is the purpose of this amendment.

We received representations from trade unions in a sub-committee evidence session. The trade unions were very clear to us that their members at the grass-roots level felt pressurised but were scared stiff to do anything about it. I have a number of examples but will give the Minister one in particular. An individual I have known in my own town of Dumbarton for years, who worked in one of the banks for 25 years, left to become a care worker at less than half the salary. I asked her why she left. She said, “John, I was being forced every week to sell products that were not only unsuitable for people but were making their lives miserable. I could not partake in that, so I left”. There was someone who had been committed for 25 years being pressured on issues like that. Surely we should have a system to say “That person has given loyal service. That’s a person who wants to serve their bank and their community. Let’s establish an appropriate structure so that we protect that person, and also make the company better”.

I suggest to the Minister that there is a link between the almost £30 billion that we will be paying out in fines for PPI and the conduct of a company. If the proper procedure was in place and that information came up from the bottom, we probably would not have the abysmal situation we have with the £30 billion.

This amendment is about not just changing the culture and standards but helping the safety and soundness of companies. It was a responsibility given to us, the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards, by the Government to give recommendations to change the culture. This is a sound way of doing that and I would have expected a more sympathetic and engaging response from the Minister than we received tonight.

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[Lord Newby]

My Lords, it goes without saying that the Government are fully behind the objective of increasing competition in banking and making sure that customers who wish to switch banks can do so without impediment. The notion of portable account numbers was considered by the Independent Commission on Banking and in its final report the ICB chose to recommend a new account switching service over portable account numbers. It considered that such a service, if designed correctly, would provide the majority of the same benefits as portability, but with significantly reduced risk and cost.

The Government acted quickly on this recommendation to secure a commitment from the banking industry to deliver current account switching in two years. This was an ambitious timetable for such a big project, but the banks have met the challenge. The new current account switching service was launched on schedule in September and covers almost 100% of the current account market. It has been designed to meet all the ICB’s criteria for tackling customer concerns over switching and to give customers the confidence they need to make the banks improve their services by ensuring that their customers can vote with their feet.

However, it is important that the new system delivers on its promises. That is why the Government continue to engage closely with the Payments Council, which has delivered the service on behalf of the industry, on the progress of switching.

[Lord McFall of Alcluith]

The noble Lord mentioned the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards and talked about account portability. But that was not as firm a recommendation as he has suggested, because one of the questions we asked was: why can the banks not allocate an account number that works in the way that mobile telephone numbers do, so that people can swap them around in the same way? The banks replied that the IT costs would be too high, but a cursory examination—that is all we did—of the IT aspect indicated that there were legacy problems with the IT. As we have seen with the horrendous examples involving RBS and others, the IT system is in a very poor state. So now is the ideal time to raise our ambitions and ensure that we get for bank customers the portability that telephone customers have.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, I did not mention the parliamentary commission; I was referring to the Independent Commission on Banking. None the less, I shall come to the substantive point that the noble Lord has just made.

As I was saying, to aid transparency we have asked the Payments Council to publish statistics regularly, including switching volumes on a monthly basis and more detailed statistics every quarter, which include data on awareness and confidence in the new service. The Government consider that making this information public is the best way to hold the current account switching service to account. As has been mentioned, the Payments Council has just published the first set of data, covering the four-week period following the switching service becoming fully operational. The numbers show that 89,000 switches were completed—an 11% increase on the 80,000 completed during the same period last year. I am a great fan of the Financial Times, but to describe a scheme that has been running for a month as a failure, when it has already got 9,000 extra people to switch, is clearly complete rubbish.

Account portability is a more complicated issue. I am not necessarily disagreeing with the noble Lord, Lord McFall, but the only way to make a properly informed assessment as to whether, or how, steps towards portable account numbers should be taken is to conduct a comprehensive analysis. I must say, almost in parenthesis, that I do not believe that the analogy with telephone numbers takes us as far as might appear at first sight. For a start, as an individual I am quite happy if lots of people know my telephone number —but I am very unhappy if anybody knows my bank account details. This means that I have a completely different view about how I want to deal with that account. That is one of a number of different reasons why this is a complicated issue. It is not, however, an issue that the Government have just pushed to one side. We have made a commitment to ask the new payment systems regulator to undertake the comprehensive analysis that is required.

There has not yet been a proper study of account portability in the UK, but it is clear that operating the payments systems alongside account portability would be one of the significant challenges. That is why we think that the payment systems regulator is the right body to carry out this work. It will have the appropriate expertise and will be able to give an independent view. To be clear, the payment systems regulator will have the powers described in subsection (2) of the proposed new clause. There would be no need to confer new powers on the regulator in order to implement the recommendations of a review. In order to get a complete picture of what benefits account portability could bring, the experience of the current account switching service will need to be fully considered. Therefore, the Government expect the success of the switching service to be firmly within the scope of the payment systems regulator’s view of portability. The switching service is new and the regulator is not yet established. In our view, the logical step is to let them both become properly established and bedded in and then have a proper and comprehensive analysis. On the basis of that, a decision can be taken.

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[Lord Eatwell]

My Lords, my noble friend has made a very strong case. He needed to add one other element to persuade the Government, which is that this would enhance competition. If one improved information in this way, then, given the enhancement of consumer choice, the competitive objective of the Government would be better served. This would be a diminution of some of the severe problems of asymmetric information that distort competition in financial services, especially retail financial services. If it was developed with care it would be a considerable boost to the overall efficiency of retail financial services in this country.

It is very easy to say, “The time is not ripe; it is not really quite the time; there are unintended consequences”. All that is required is a consistent bias towards transparency. The Government should approach this issue by saying, “In principle, we are in favour of transparency”. The argument should be made for not being transparent. In other words, the strong case has to be made for not revealing something. The fundamental prejudice should be that this information should be transparent. Effective transmission of information is a key element in creating an efficient market and enhancing the competitive goal that the Government claim to be their own.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord McFall, pointed out, we debated this issue at great length during proceedings on the previous Financial Services Bill. Sections 348 and 349 of FiSMA govern the treatment of confidential information obtained by the regulators and the ability of the regulators to disclose such confidential information. The noble Lord argued at the time, and repeated today, that there was inadequate transparency and insufficient disclosure of information in the financial services regulatory regime. This led to the argument that Section 348 should be amended to make it as unrestricted as possible.

In response, the Treasury undertook a careful review of Section 348 and its associated provisions. The review concluded, first, that it would be difficult to amend Section 348 without negative consequences. Scaling back Section 348 would increase the risk that firms would become less willing to share information with the regulators, undermining those important relationships and the regulators’ ability to protect consumers. Secondly, even with Section 348 in place, the FCA could and should do more to increase transparency.

With that in mind, the Government decided at the time not to amend or delete Section 348 but agreed with the FSA, as it then was, for it to carry out a fundamental review of how transparency would be embedded in the new FCA regime. This was published as a consultation in April of this year and received positive feedback from consumer groups—that is, the very people the new or changed approach was intended to benefit. The review covered use of disclosure as a regulatory tool by the regulator, disclosure of information by firms, both voluntarily and as a result of FCA rules, and transparency on the part of the regulator.

In terms of publishing details of enforcement action, the FCA is already required to publish details and information about decisions and final notices that it considers appropriate. It can also publish the fact that a warning notice has been issued in respect of disciplinary action. In response to the recent PCBS recommendation that it should require firms to publish more information, the FCA has outlined its plans to issue a call for evidence next year on data that it should require firms to publish to help consumers better understand the firm and product quality.

I hope the noble Lord will agree that this is exactly what the PCBS was seeking to achieve and that it can be done without further amendment to Section 348.

[Lord McFall of Alcluith]

My Lords, again the Government’s response is a little timid. However, the hour is late. It is an appropriate time to say, “Mañana” and we will fight it another day.

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[Lord Newby]

The noble Lord may or may not remember that at the start of today’s discussions the noble Lord, Lord Lawson, pointed out that the size of the Bill had expanded multiple times. I admit that part of this relates to the Government’s amendments on bail-in. However, every other amendment is in order to implement a recommendation of the PCBS. That is what we spent nearly all of last week discussing.

[Lord McFall of Alcluith]

There is a real communication problem here. I was at a meeting with the noble Lords, Lord Turnbull and Lord Lawson, and with Andrew Tyrie, and they all complained about the expansion of the Bill from 35 pages to 199. If the Minister, incredibly, is saying that this is to help the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards, perhaps the Government should start communicating with us on this, because we are dismayed by the number of pages in the Bill, not accepting of it.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, I am sorry; with the exception of the bail-in provisions, the expansion of the size of the Bill is specifically in order to implement recommendations of the parliamentary commission, such as the senior managers regime, the criminal sanctions and the enhanced electrification power. The reason that the Government have not today accepted everything that the PCBS has recommended is that we have already accepted the majority of the commission’s recommendations and put them in the Bill. It is simply not the case that we have accepted no recommendations of the parliamentary commission—quite the opposite.

The final issue is specifically about the powers in this amendment. The powers can only be used to make consequential amendments—that is, those which are needed to deal with the provisions passed in the Bill. The example I gave was in relation to the senior persons regime, and I can reassure the noble Lord, Lord Brennan, that there is nothing sinister or unusual in what is being proposed. These powers are commonly taken in Bills which make significant changes to existing law. I am very happy for Treasury lawyers to set out in a letter the precedents that these powers exactly replicate. The hour is late, but I can assure the House that we are not doing anything here that is in the slightest way unusual.

Financial Services (Banking Reform) Bill

Debate between Lord McFall of Alcluith and Lord Newby

Tuesday 15th October 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Eatwell]

My Lords, I was a member of the first regulatory decisions committee established under the Financial Services Authority. It was established at that time because it was felt that the FSA’s procedures would run counter to the Human Rights Act, in the sense that those procedures were both judge and jury. The role of the committee was to act as an independent assessor of the regulatory and enforcement proposals put forward by the FSA.

It worked reasonably well, at least from the perspective of a member of the committee, but not from the perspective of the FSA; we tended to give it a rather difficult time when we felt that its cases were ill prepared and ill focused. It played a particular role for a short period. Then, after a particular dramatic case was lost by the FSA in the tribunal, the FSA decided that it did not like the RDC being foisted upon it, and the role of the RDC was slowly downgraded. I think that was unfortunate—obviously I do, because I participated in the early days when I thought it was working rather well, but be that as it may.

The role here is slightly different from the challenge role that the RDC played. Will the Minister address the question of whether any effective enforcement role for a regulator is compatible with the Human Rights Act?

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, we have considered extremely carefully all the recommendations from the PCBS. They contain a number of observations about the importance of banking expertise, accountability, clarity of responsibility and consistency of decision-making, which we certainly agree with.

I shall explain how the current arrangements already deliver all those things in a way that is tailored to the regulators’ individual approaches. First, on expertise, the call to create a separate decisions committee solely for the banking sector partly reflects concerns about the level of banking expertise on the RDC. At the FCA, the regulatory decisions committee is responsible for taking enforcement decisions. Its remit extends beyond banking, but that does not mean that it does not contain banking expertise. Indeed, the FCA has recently addressed the balance of expertise on the RDC through the appointment of two new members with banking expertise. At the PRA, of course there is no lack of banking expertise on its decision-making committees.

Secondly, on clarity of roles and responsibility, Section 395 of FiSMA provides for the separation of supervision from disciplinary decision-making. Under the current arrangements, there is also a clear separation of the function of making enforcement decisions from that of judicial consideration of the issue.

I do not accept the argument that the fact that the PRA does not have an RDC gives rise to human rights concerns. We do not believe that there is a problem on that front. The prospect of decisions being appealed to the Upper Tribunal means that the system already provides an independent judicial challenge function to the decision-making process for all financial services cases. The proposed requirement for regulatory decisions to be made by a committee chaired by a person with senior judicial experience, on the other hand, would appear to give this new committee a quasi-judicial role more suitable for an external review tribunal than an internal decision-making body.

On consistency of decision-making, I understand that a key part of the recommendation was to encourage a greater consistency of decision-making across the PRA and the FCA. Unfortunately, I believe that the creation of an additional statutory committee for banks would create only new inconsistency. The new committee relates only to banking, so any enforcement decisions relating to a building society, insurer or investment firm would be made under the existing framework and the FCA would have to maintain the existing RDC. This would mean one body dealing with the breach of a rule by a bank and a different body dealing with the same breach of the same rule by a building society, with potentially different outcomes, which seems undesirable. While I think that the PCBS report contains some useful observations in this area, I believe that the current, flexible arrangements are the right ones. On that basis, I would be grateful if the noble Lord withdrew his amendment.

[Lord McFall of Alcluith]

I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Lord Newby]

My Lords, this amendment proposes that the Treasury should be required to undertake a review into the effects, including the social, cultural and ethical effects, of exempting certain gaming contracts from the rule which used to provide that no gaming contract or wager can be enforced in a court of law. That exemption applied to certain categories of financial contracts, such as derivative contracts like contracts for differences, which could be regarded as gaming contracts within the meaning of the Gaming Acts because of their characteristics. Only those transactions which were subject to regulation under Financial Services legislation, such as the Financial Services Act 1986, and more recently the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000, ever benefited from the exemption.

However, the law has changed significantly in this area. Since the Gambling Act 2005 came into force, gaming contracts and wagers are now enforceable through the courts, except in Northern Ireland, and the effect of the exemption is therefore limited to Northern Ireland. In the rest of the United Kingdom, there is no difference in the enforceability of derivative investments and other gaming contracts and wagers. Much of the purpose of the review proposed has therefore, in the Government’s view, gone.

It is also unclear what action could be taken following such a review. Trading in financial instruments is subject to European law, and in particular the markets in financial instruments directive. This limits the extent of the action this country could take in relation to financial instruments falling within the scope of the directive. It is unclear what benefits such a review could bring and we suggest that the noble Lord withdraws his amendment on the basis that it is not proportionate or objectively justified.

[Lord McFall of Alcluith]

My Lords, I am surprised that the Minister is saying that we do not know what benefit this could bring. After all this is a derivatives market. We are talking about a derivatives market globally with $66 trillion or more. Not only is there a complexity in that market but there is a total opaqueness. Warren Buffett called derivatives weapons of mass financial destruction. So there is benefit in looking at this issue. Given that the parliamentary banking standards commission’s remit was to look at culture and standards, I would like the Minister to reflect on that issue with culture. In my opinion, culture is about behaviour and ethics is about conflicts of interest. In an opaque market, there are many conflicts of interest, and therefore it would do the Government good to open up this market and see what benefits could result.

The noble Lord, Lord Phillips, has done the Committee a service in this matter. We know that the market will not change overnight, but we must understand what is in the market, particularly the derivatives market. I would like the Government to take this a bit more seriously than the Minister has taken it in saying that we cannot learn anything at all from this.

Financial Services (Banking Reform) Bill

Debate between Lord McFall of Alcluith and Lord Newby

Tuesday 15th October 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord McFall of Alcluith]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Higgins, has a real point here. If we look at the timeline with PPI, consumer groups were complaining about it in the late 1990s. There was a supercomplaint in 2005. The Treasury Committee highlighted it in 2003. The OFT and the Competition Commission looked into it. It was 2012-13 before something was sorted out. That is a generation. We are making these points against the background of a sclerotic system and we really need a commitment from the Government that they are considering the matter. Otherwise, we will be back here in 10 or 15 years’ time and nothing whatever will have moved.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, everybody would have a great deal of sympathy with the general point that the system has worked very slowly in the past. The FSA was extremely slow in many ways, but one of the features of the way the new system works is that a greater degree of urgency is injected. I give as an example the document on consumer credit published by the FCA last week. The FCA does not take responsibility for consumer credit until next April, but well in advance of that date it has produced a comprehensive plan of how it wants to proceed. This is much more rigorous than anything we have seen in that area in the past. To a considerable extent, the regulators have learnt lessons about the need to move with all due deliberation, yet also with due speed.

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[Lord Newby]

My Lords, unless it was taking deposits it would be exempt under the amendments as they stand. It is fair to say that I have heard what the House has said and I will relay it with all force to my colleagues in the Treasury, who will not have had the privilege to hear it directly.

[Lord McFall of Alcluith]

It would be easy to put a note in the Library about which institutions will be affected and which will not, so that we can see for ourselves and there is no misinterpretation when we look at this further on Report.

[Lord Newby]

I am not sure that I can undertake to give a comprehensive list, but I am sure that I can undertake that we would explain which named organisations fall on both sides of that definition.

The next point made by the noble Lord, Lord Turnbull, was about the licensing regime. He made a common point about “may” as opposed to “must”, something that we debate at huge length. There is no doubt that there will be not a licensing regime in his terms, but there will be rules of conduct that will cover all employees for whom they are relevant. The intention is not for the cleaners to be covered by these rules. It is perfectly well understood with the PRA that it will not only produce the rules but set out the scope of which employees will be covered by them.

The noble Lord asked about the handover note. Our view is that we do not need primary legislation to require handover notes. The regulators can require that in their rules, and I am sure that they plan to. When senior managers take on a new job, new statements of responsibilities are required so that there is absolute clarity on what the senior manager is responsible for. We see these as fulfilling the purpose that he had in mind, and which other people might colloquially think of as a handover note.

The noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, raised the question about whether British banks would be at a disadvantage. I cannot really add to the comments of my noble friend Lord Lawson and others, other than to say that the Government believe that it is in the long-term interest not only of bank customers but of the City of London that the highest possible standards are followed here. If individual bankers feel that they do not want to operate to the highest possible standards, they should go somewhere else.

The noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, and the noble Lord, Lord Flight, asked whether the senior management regime undermines collective responsibility. We do not think that it does. It ensures that individuals are held to account when things go wrong. It will not change the way in which decisions are taken in a collective manner.

The noble Lord, Lord Flight, raised a point that has been made a number of times: why did the regulatory system get away with it, and why has no action been taken? The answer is that the restructuring of the system was undertaken to try to ensure that we did not have the same problems again. The Government believe that that is how you stop the laxity of the past, and that we begin to instil a new culture by having different organisations, objectives and rules. The regulatory regime has not gone through this process unamended.

Moving on to the amendments introduced by the noble Lord, Lord Brennan, I assure him that there is no difference of view between him and other noble Lords who supported this amendment about the significance of money-laundering and the need for it to be tackled effectively, nor of the scale of it. The scale of money-laundering is very large, and the Government and the regulators are determined to cut it down.

I would like to make some points against the amendments and in response to some of the things that have been said. The most important point was that raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes. The requirements for senior managers to stay within the law on money-laundering are no different from those to keep to the law in every other area where there is law. The noble Lord has a laudable interest in money-laundering while the noble Baroness is interested in anti-terrorism legislation. There may be an overlap, but they are distinct. Other noble Lords are interested in other things, where bankers have a legal responsibility to keep within the law. Singling out money-laundering, at a point where it is not required in order to be covered by the legislation, serves no useful purpose and can be positively unhelpful. However, I am happy to take up the sensible suggestion from the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, that we provide a letter of comfort, as it were, between now and Report to confirm that the regulator takes this extremely seriously, and that we begin to explain how the obligation under the law will be undertaken.

The noble Lord, Lord McFall, repeated that in the past the trail could go cold. The great thing about these provisions is that they deal explicitly with that. To say that the trail goes cold will no longer be a defence.

[Lord McFall of Alcluith]

The reason I said that is that Tracey McDermott, the present FCA director of enforcement, came before the committee and answered that question in all honesty. She said that what is needed is a chart of organisations to determine who is responsible for what and a handover document. That is at the start at the moment; it has not been fleshed out. That is the reason why I brought that point to the Minister.

[Lord Newby]

When this amendment is enacted, it will ensure that a senior manager will have his or her areas of responsibility explicitly set out on appointment and that he or she will be held responsible for everything that happens on their watch in that area. It will no longer be a defence to say, “The trail ran cold” or “Nobody told me about it”, as long as they might reasonably be expected to know about it. That is a killer point in respect of this amendment.

The noble Lord, Lord Watson, said that the Government are complacent, as HSBC has shown. It is in part because of the HSBC experience that this series of amendments has been introduced. We are confident that they will stop that happening again.

The noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, set out the arguments for a licensing regime. The Government believe that the code of conduct we are proposing, which will cover all those involved in banking activities, is a proportionate response to the need for the kind of principles followed by people on a day-to-day basis in the banking sector that the noble Lord wants covered by the licensing regime. We are confident that the Government will achieve that.

I hope that I have dealt with most of the points that were raised. I commend the amendment to the Committee.

Economy: GDP Forecast

Debate between Lord McFall of Alcluith and Lord Newby

Monday 29th July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, the increased growth figures will of course have a materially positive impact on the debt forecast going forward. With regard to lending to SMEs, the Funding for Lending scheme was strengthened at the Budget and I am pleased to say that the figures published this morning show that there has been for many months a slight uptick in lending to SMEs.

[Lord McFall of Alcluith]

My Lords, the Minister has recognised that the public debt that this Government inherited in 2010 will be greater when they leave office in 2015. No less a figure than the editor of the Spectator has said that the amount of debt that this coalition Government will borrow will be greater than the total amount of debt of the Labour Government in their 13 years from 1997. Is it not the case that there is not a deficit reduction strategy but a growth reduction strategy, which has been the most successful in history? This Government need to acknowledge that and do something about it.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, I disagree with virtually all of that. As I pointed out earlier, during the five years of this Government we will have borrowed very significantly more to shore up the economy. That is why debt is higher. I am not sure whether the noble Lord is suggesting that we should have borrowed even more.

Taxation: VAT on Retrofitting Buildings

Debate between Lord McFall of Alcluith and Lord Newby

Thursday 25th July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby]

Shale gas is a significant potential new source of energy. As the noble Lord will be aware, we announced a series of measures in the spending review that will facilitate the development of shale gas. We think that it can play an important part in our future energy mix. Of course, the development of it will generate a number of jobs.

[Lord McFall of Alcluith]

In the discussion the other day with representatives of the KfW Bank in Germany, at which the Minister was present, he will have heard them say that one of the most successful schemes the bank has been involved in is a scheme for energy saving and job creation in Germany. Does he not think that there is a lesson here for this country, at a time when the divide between north and south is getting greater, so that we can help rebalance the economy and provide jobs at a local level, thereby having the twin objectives of ensuring economic prosperity and providing insulation for homes for the future?

[Lord Newby]

I completely agree with the noble Lord. Of course, that is why we set up the Green Investment Bank, which is already proving its worth, not only in putting money into green projects on its own behalf but getting a significant multiple of private sector investment coming in to support that government pump-priming.

Banking: Regulation

Debate between Lord McFall of Alcluith and Lord Newby

Monday 10th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, I absolutely agree. That is why we have been in the forefront of bringing forward plans under which banking problems can be resolved and why, under the Banking Reform Bill, we are looking at having a ring-fence around retail banks so that we do not have the problems that we have had in the past. This will go ahead, whatever happens internationally. I hope very much that there will be international action, but action that is based very much on the British model and with British leadership.

[Lord McFall of Alcluith]

My Lords, Glass-Steagall, which governed the global prudential system, was more than 30 pages, Basel II increased that tenfold to 350 pages and Basel III is now 600 pages. Does this not tell us that the system is governed by complexity and opacity and that the desire to game it increases? Is there not a case for simplifying the system and having leverage play a greater role in the regulatory framework? The need for structural change, irrespective of what is happening elsewhere in the world, is urgent in the UK and we should get on with it.

[Lord Newby]

Yes, my Lords, I agree. Basel is indeed that number of pages, while I think that the Dodd-Frank Act in the States is more than 2,000 pages and is so complicated that there are real questions about whether the institutions will ever be able to implement it. Getting back to what I was saying about banking reform here, one of the key reasons for having a ring-fence is to have a simpler structure under which the retail bank is segregated from the more complicated and casino elements of the system. We think that that will bring benefits for consumers as well as bringing greater stability to the system as a whole.

Financial Services Bill

Debate between Lord McFall of Alcluith and Lord Newby

Wednesday 28th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, I do not believe that there is a guarantee. I think that the vast bulk of people who use this system will fall into the category that the noble and learned Lord asked about. However, I will check and will write to him if there is any further information that I can give him to explain those points more fully.

[Lord McFall of Alcluith]

My Lords, CPAs are different from direct debits, as I made clear. Given the legislative complacency in the consumer credit field, I am very unhappy with the notion of guidance. I think that we sent out a message from the Lords today on an earlier amendment, and it was good to have cross-party consensus on that. There are glaring injustices and it is very important that we reinforce that message in the House today. I should therefore like to test the opinion of the House.

Financial Services Bill

Debate between Lord McFall of Alcluith and Lord Newby

Monday 12th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord McFall of Alcluith]

My Lords, I support the amendment and the proposition of the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes. If we look at the history of prudential regulation and consumer interest, we find that prudential regulation has trumped conduct of business for a number of years. I suggest that the PRA will be a more enhanced body than the FCA and therefore will win out all the time. Therefore, what the noble Baroness is saying about a broader range of opinion is extremely important. We need to look at the history of the representation of consumers in the financial services industry over a number of years. I lobbied the FSA for years to get a consumer representative on board. It came back to me very excited one day and said, “We have someone on board”. However, one out of 12 or one out of 13 is inadequate. It is very important that we redress the asymmetry of knowledge that is at the centre of selling because we have to restore trust and confidence in the industry, and to do that we have to balance the needs of the industry with those of the consumer. Therefore, I could not agree more with the need to have broader representation. That would put the status of the PRA at one with that of the FCA so that they served the interests of the industry and the consumer.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, the Government obviously recognise that consumers have an interest in the outcome of the PRA’s actions and decisions. In particular, consumers will be beneficiaries of a safer and more stable financial system. However, the PRA will not focus on consumer protection as an end in itself. That will be the job of the FCA.

New Section 3D in the Bill requires the PRA and the FCA to co-ordinate their functions in areas of common regulatory interest where one may have relevant expertise or a material adverse impact on the objectives of the other. This means that while it is right that the PRA must focus on its safety and soundness objective, where its actions may impact adversely on consumer protection it will need to listen to the FCA, which obviously has the lead consumer protection objective. As the regulator with expertise and analytical capacity in relation to consumer protection, it is right that the FCA should consider stakeholder perspectives, including the views of the consumer panel, come to a balanced view and then communicate this view to the PRA. I do not think that it would be sensible to require the PRA, which will not have detailed expertise in general consumer issues, to consider separate consumer representations and potentially develop an alternative rival consumer view about the best way to deliver consumer protection.

For these reasons, I cannot support the amendment. I hope the noble Baroness will be satisfied that the system will enable all consumer concerns to be represented to the PRA, but that that will be done through the principal channel of the consumer panel that the FCA is to establish.