Procedure and Privileges
Debate between Lord McFall of Alcluith and Baroness Smith of Basildon(2 years, 9 months ago)
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The Lord Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)
My Lords, as noble Lords are aware, there were technical problems with the Division system, but I am told it is now functioning so I will extend the Division by three minutes.
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
Can I just check with the Lord Speaker: if people have already voted, is that taken as a vote? Is there a way of putting the extension on the screen, and extending it for more than three minutes, as a number of Members have left the Chamber thinking they were unable to vote? I am not convinced that an extra three minutes is long enough.
The Lord Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)
The votes of those who have voted will be recorded. Why do we not go for 10 minutes? Is that okay? Very good.
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
Can a message be put on the screen that the vote is still open for the next 10 minutes, please?
Environment and Climate Change Committee
Debate between Lord McFall of Alcluith and Baroness Smith of Basildon
Lord Balfe (Con)
I have one question, and a couple of observations, on what will probably be the Senior Deputy Speaker’s last outing in this House. I am sure we all admire the work that he has done in his many years in the job.
The withdrawal agreement from the EU provides for the establishment of a joint parliamentary committee between the British Parliament and the European Parliament. I wonder whether the Senior Deputy Speaker can give us any information as to how the House of Lords is to be represented in that committee, and whether we will be taking one of either the chair or the three vice-chairs of that committee. I happen to know, because I wear several hats in this game, that the European Parliament has already decided on its chair and vice-chairs, so I just wonder what we are doing, who is leading for us and how it will fit into that structure.
My second point is that we seem to have again arrived at this position through some sort of magical mystery tour. We are told that the Committee of Selection has done this, but who has it approached? I have not seen anything. I have not been asked whether I would like to serve on a committee. How do these names come forward? I suggest that they come forward because all that we say about this being a self-regulating House is basically a load of old rubbish. The leadership runs this House. We are pushed around in whatever way a very small group of people chooses. It really is as simple as that.
I would like the Senior Deputy Speaker to follow the great tradition of leaving a note for one’s successor. He does not need to leave a note saying that there is no money left, but I think he could well leave a note saying that there is a call from some quarters—they may be unrepresentative, but I would certainly like to see it—for much greater democratisation.
In the other place, the chairs of committees are allocated to the political groups and then elected by the whole House on the basis that it can look and decide what the competencies are of those committees and the chairs can have the confidence of the House. They are not plucked out of some magical hat somewhere. I would like to see that procedure extended to this House. Clearly it cannot be done in this resolution, but I am getting a bit fed up with constantly going on about this. If the issue comes back yet again, with another series of committees and no movement whatever, I might just be tempted to divide the House—although I would lose—to prove that there are probably at least two people who support what I have got to say.
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
My Lords, I had not intended to speak but will say just a brief word. I cannot speak for the noble Lord’s party, but I assure him that we on these Benches have a very open process of selection for committees. All Members are notified of committee vacancies; they are asked to apply and, in consultation, the Chief Whip makes a decision and our group discusses it. He obviously has grievances with his own group, for which I cannot speak, but I am looking at my colleagues behind me and know that they do not share those grievances.
The Senior Deputy Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Balfe, for that question on the European area. It was the joint parliamentary committee that was to establish the partnership assembly and already I have had informal discussions behind the scenes on that. I will write to the noble Lord further and put the letter in the Library for people to see.
The process of committee nominations is left to the usual channels of the parliamentary parties. It is for the parliamentary parties to engage with their members, and I assume that they are doing that. The Committee of Selection then gets those nominations and decides, at the end of the day.
Writing a note is quite good idea. The only thing that I would say are these two words: “Bye-bye”.
House of Lords: Proceedings
Debate between Lord McFall of Alcluith and Baroness Smith of Basildon
The Senior Deputy Speaker(Lord McFall of Alcluith) [V]
I thank the noble Lord for his Question and comments. As I think his Question acknowledges, I am not in a position to offer time on the Floor of the House, but I know that the Chief Whip will have heard his request. He is correct that we, as a House, need to find a way to talk through what has worked and what has not and any features of hybrid working we may want to retain beyond the current pandemic. I believe that the House would benefit from the experiences and ideas of the noble Lord and others across the House. For my part, I will reflect on how Members’ views might best be sought.
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab) [V]
My Lords, none of us enjoy working remotely. The noble Lord, Lord Farmer, is right that it does not allow the House to work at its best, although thanks to our remarkable digital teams and staff across the House we have been able to do so much more effectively than some thought was possible. However, we long for a return to normality. As the vaccine is rolled out, those who receive it have protection but can still transmit the virus. Restrictions therefore remain vital to protect colleagues and our staff who have not yet been vaccinated. Our return to normality cannot be ad hoc; it has to be properly planned. Will the Senior Deputy Speaker confirm that, working with Public Health England, we should now start that planning process in the interests of the work of the House and all those who work here?
The Senior Deputy Speaker(Lord McFall of Alcluith) [V]
I thank the noble Baroness for her question, the kernel of which is: will we instigate a route back to normal? I anticipate deliberation of that at the commission and, thereafter, as appropriate, at the committee dealing with procedural aspects. As she says, we have to be informed by the best advice of Public Health England alongside the representations and views of Members of the House, while taking into consideration staff views and interests. The noble Baroness makes an excellent point about a route back to normal and I am sure that we will take that up at the commission as a first step.
Pension Protection Fund (Moratorium and Arrangements and Reconstructions for Companies in Financial Difficulty) Regulations 2020
Debate between Lord McFall of Alcluith and Baroness Smith of Basildon(3 years, 7 months ago)
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The Senior Deputy Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)
The Question is that the Motion in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Stedman-Scott, be agreed to. As many—
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
My Lords, I think that the Minister has just said that, before agreeing it, she will take it back to Members to see if they are happy with it because there is some complication. That was the implication of what she said: she was not going to put it forward for a vote today until she had consulted people.
She is checking with the Clerk so I will keep talking for a second while she gets advice. However, I am still not clear. I thought she said she was agreeing to take it back and consult with Members who were on that Committee.
House of Lords: Size
Debate between Lord McFall of Alcluith and Baroness Smith of Basildon
The Senior Deputy Speaker [V]
We have mentioned the House of Lords Appointments Commission, and it is doing an excellent job. I am sure it will have keen views and reflections on that issue as we go forward.
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab) [V]
My Lords, is there not a huge irony here? Here we are, Members of your Lordships’ House from all the different political parties and none, and we are the ones calling for reform as soon as possible, while the only reason that we have not got it is because the Government will not do it. The Burns report made a very modest and sensible proposal but, as the noble Lord, Lord Young, said, it has now been overtaken by events. Should we not be pressing the Government to say that this really cannot wait? We are more effective and useful if we are a smaller House. With rumours of a huge government appointment list coming, is there not some urgency to this situation now for both the Government and your Lordships’ House?
The Senior Deputy Speaker [V]
The House endorsed the Burns report. There is a keenness to ensure that we reduce the size of the House. Pressure or further lobbying on this issue can be made, whether in the Chamber of the House or in the Procedure Committee. As she is a member of the Procedure Committee, I have no doubt that the noble Baroness will be raising that at a future meeting.
Palace of Westminster: Restoration and Renewal
Debate between Lord McFall of Alcluith and Baroness Smith of Basildon
The Senior Deputy Speaker
They will be fully empowered if we continue with the proposals by April this year. In every discussion that the Lord Speaker and the Speaker have had, that issue has been foremost on the agenda.
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his answers, but I would like to correct him on one point. The two commissions met on Monday, but we did not discuss this issue at all because the Commons commissioners left prior to this discussion taking place. There was a very valuable meeting on coronavirus, but there was no discussion between the two commissions on this issue because the people from the Commons left the meeting.
The noble Lord, Lord Newby, hit on a very valuable point about interference in the project. The joint commission—a committee of both Houses—met for months and months, supported by a lot of expertise and work from experts and professionals in their field. It came up with an option that it thought the most cost-effective and least risky for the future of this building. This was then endorsed by an Act of Parliament passed by both Houses. Is the Senior Deputy Speaker aware that, for each year of delay, the bill increases by around £100 million? On top of that, there is the increased maintenance of the building and we lose the opportunity to have a building that is more cost-effective by not doing the work needed on this one. The biggest risk, as the noble Lord, Lord Newby, said, comes from politicians chopping and changing their minds, as Mr Barry’s War, an excellent book, which I recommend, illustrates. If Ministers want to change the process, will they have to repeal the legislation and bring forward a new Bill? Have there been any indications from government Ministers that that is the case?
The Senior Deputy Speaker
The answer to that question is no, but I remind the Leader of the Opposition that I quoted precisely from the joint statement. That is very important and this project continues. She asked about the timeline; I remind Members that in 2012, an independent options appraisal was undertaken and it was endorsed in 2016. The 2012 independent appraisal said:
“There will be irreversible damage if major works are not undertaken.”
Those of us who meet to discuss this keep safety in our minds, because we have to protect Members, staff, contractors and the 1 million visitors who come into this Chamber. A number of keen observers of Parliament on social media have tweeted this week:
“This is history repeating itself. Who will carry the can when a catastrophic event happens at Westminster and one or more persons get seriously hurt or injured?”
We have to keep that in mind when we are meeting as a joint commission. The timeline is long and the safety elements are urgent; we continue in that way. Other comments are speculative and we will leave that to that realm.
Palace of Westminster: Restoration and Renewal
Debate between Lord McFall of Alcluith and Baroness Smith of Basildon
The Senior Deputy Speaker
My Lords, on the costs, today I picked up with my mail a copy of the booklet entitled Restoration and Renewal Members’ FAQs. It contains 11 sections in total with 77 questions. If I recall correctly, the issue of costs is set out on page 12. Perhaps I may give your Lordships the costs for the House of Lords. From the 2014-15 financial year to the end of quarter 3 of this financial year, the House of Lords had spent £28.2 million on capital costs and £18.4 million on resource costs. As far as the rest of the project is concerned, all that is laid out comprehensively on the same page.
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
My Lords, I am grateful to the Senior Deputy Speaker for that information. This is a huge project of national importance and it is right that the whole UK should be engaged with it. The point has been made that we must bear down on the costs as much as possible to ensure value for money. However, will he convey a message back to the Government and others involved? Every single time there is a delay to this project, not only do the project costs increase but the costs of maintaining the building as it is rise significantly. Every Member of your Lordships’ House will have a story to tell of something that has gone badly wrong and the damage that is done. Indeed, this morning I had an electrician working in my office. For this project to proceed, it has to be mindful of the costs and ensure that there are no further delays because they just increase those costs to the taxpayer.
The Senior Deputy Speaker
I could not agree with the noble Baroness more. This is a timely Question. It was two years ago today that we approved the Motion agreeing with the other place that a full and timely decant was necessary. Restoration and renewal has a long history in which we as Members have been extensively involved. That includes the work undertaken in 2015 and 2016 by the Joint Committee on the Palace of Westminster, which recommended that a full decant would be the best option. In 2018 and 2019, there was pre-legislative scrutiny of the parliamentary buildings Bill, of which there was scrutiny by this House in 2019. The Bill then became the Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration and Renewal) Act 2019. What says it all in terms of the safety of the building is that we have 24 full-time firefighters employed in it—that is the full story. There is an urgency to this project.
Standing Orders (Public Business)
Debate between Lord McFall of Alcluith and Baroness Smith of Basildon
The Senior Deputy Speaker
The Government have already laid a number of negative instruments.
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister and the Senior Deputy Speaker on this. He will recall that, when this was discussed in the Procedure Committee, assurances were sought and received. Will he discuss one point with the Government? One of the issues we raised was that, when instruments are laid during recess, they should be easily accessible to all noble Lords and to the public. I was given that assurance by the Chief Whip, which was helpful. We agree with this and it is important that, if they are laid during recess, we have that additional time to scrutinise them before the sitting days. It has become evident that, rather than all of them being available on the website for the Department for Exiting the European Union as we anticipated, they are being published on different department websites. Could he ask if they could also be published on the central website of the Department for Exiting the European Union, so there is no confusion for anybody and everyone can access them by looking at one website and not every different department’s?
The Senior Deputy Speaker
I anticipated the answer to the question, but the noble Baroness is ahead of me on that issue. It will be published by the departments on their websites. She makes a good suggestion about it being on the central website. I have already heard whispers that the Government will look at that issue.
The Senior Deputy Speaker
The noble Lord is correct there was talk about establishing a sub-committee. The committee has an additional member on it at the moment, but the decision about when it will form sub-committees is for the committee itself. It depends on the number and volume of the instruments laid. When it gets to that critical mass, the committee will divide into sub-committees.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
Can I clarify? My understanding is that names have already been requested and both sub-committees are in the process of being established.
The Senior Deputy Speaker
The noble Baroness has information that is superior to mine at the moment, but I am happy for it to be made public.