House of Lords: Behaviour and Courtesy

Monday 14th October 2024 Lords Chamber

Question

14:49

Asked by

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

To ask the Leader of the House what plans she has to promote awareness among members of the rules and conventions relating to behaviour and courtesy in the Chamber.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)]

My Lords, the first Oral Question is from the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, who is participating remotely.

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Smith of Basildon) (Lab)]

My Lords, the Chief Whip and I, with the Front Bench and the usual channels, are committed to promoting the rules and conventions of the House on an ongoing basis. This includes advising on individual items of business and general communications about points of procedure. The Chief Whip, with the usual channels, recently wrote to all Members reminding us of the normal courtesies of the House and expected standards of behaviour. This is to support noble Lords in understanding the rules and conventions. In a self-regulating Chamber, it is crucial that we all maintain high-quality debate, respect for the conventions and respect for each other.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, having participated remotely in proceedings over three years, I have been able to observe from afar the conduct of Members. Do Members not realise how appalling the House appears to a worldwide audience when Peers, who include some of the brightest people in the land, openly argue, protest, shout across the Chamber and demand who should be called, in an attempt to control contributions? We cannot go on like this; it looks awful. Why not establish a committee of the House to consider whether we would be better served by giving the Speaker greater powers to intervene? The current arrangements demean our reputation. We have a problem and it needs sorting.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, on the first part of the noble Lord’s question, I am impressed if today we have a worldwide audience. I hope that is the case. Nothing is more undignified and disrespectful to colleagues than when others shout so that those with the loudest voices get heard. I have to say, I do not think it happens that often. I am not really encouraged to set up a new committee. The House itself makes its views known and my noble friend Lord Kennedy, the Chief Whip, has been quite encouraging—let us say—of Members to abide by the conventions and behaviours of the House. I know that for some Members it does seem strange from time to time, but I urge all Members that if we all behave with dignity and respect for others, this should not be a problem.

[Lord Geddes (Con)]

My Lords, I am told I have a certain reputation in the context of this Question. I ask the Lord Privy Seal two things: first, to emphasise that Questions should not be read; and, secondly, to confirm that, for reasons unknown to myself, there is no such person as a “noble Minister”. There is a “noble Lord the Minister”, but the office is, for some curious reason, not deemed noble.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, Questions should not be read. They should be concise and questions rather than speeches. My noble friend Lord Kennedy of Southwark has pointed this out on many occasions and will continue to do so. On the noble Lord’s second point, many noble Lords—including me, on occasion —have felt chastised when they have slipped up and referred to someone as a “noble Minister”. He is absolutely right: it is the “noble Lord the Minister” or the “noble Baroness the Minister”. This makes the point: we have to abide by the rules and conventions of the House in order to conduct our business appropriately.

[Lord Newby (LD)]

My Lords, having been in your Lordships’ House a long time, I do not think that the degree of shouting at Questions has become significantly worse than when I started. For me, in the current environment, it is more important than ever that everybody in public life is tolerant and shows respect to everyone. Does the noble Baroness the Leader agree that Members of your Lordships’ House have a particular responsibility not to say anything in this Chamber which might lead to greater divisions in society than the ones with which we are already struggling?

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, your Lordships will have heard the response from the whole House, and I think that is definitely the case. All of us, particularly those in positions of responsibility—or when there is a worldwide audience—should choose our words with care, because they have an impact. We have a duty and responsibility to behave appropriately.

[The Lord Bishop of Sheffield]

My Lords, it is surely a very good thing that the dealings of this Chamber are broadcast live, but it does mean that our interactions with one another are witnessed far beyond this place. Can the noble Baroness tell the House whether any attempt is made to monitor or record comments from the public in reaction to the broadcasts and, if so, what use is made of that feedback?

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, from time to time we see reports in the press or polls are undertaken in response. One that struck me most recently said how little people understood the work we do in this House. That is incumbent on us all, not just in our behaviour but in our explanation about what we do. Perhaps we ought to think a little more, particularly when we have debates on some of our very specialised reports or the detail of legislation, about how we can broadcast that more widely, so that people understand what goes on in this Chamber.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

My Lords, as this Question is in essence about the powers of the Lord Speaker, it is worth putting that into a bit of context. When the Lord Speaker’s position was introduced, it was in the context of great hostility to us having a Lord Speaker at all. The Speaker was allowed only to sit in the Chamber and was forbidden from speaking under any circumstances; the Lord Speaker was the only person who could not speak.

Since then, a number of small but significant changes have been made, all of which have enhanced the role of the Lord Speaker. In the context of every one of those changes—the Speaker taking over from the clerk in introducing the next Question, and many similar things, such as explaining the business as it comes along—no one suggests now that we should revert to the system that existed without the Lord Speaker. The direction of travel is very much in the direction of the case argued by the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Lord is absolutely right. I remember the controversy when the first Lord Speaker—the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, who is in her place—was introduced. Every Lord Speaker has done this House proud. Of course, their role is not just one in the Chamber but a wider one of advocacy for the House of Lords. The noble Lord is right that each of those changes—I was the advocate for the last one of announcing next business when we move from Bills to Statements—has been made with the agreement of the House. I always think that is the best way to proceed on these issues.

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, if there is a Question that is really about the role of the Lord Speaker, it might be helpful to noble Lords if that were made clear when the Question is tabled. I agree with both what the noble Baroness the Leader of the House and the Leader of the Liberal Democrat Peers said. This House is a courteous House and I do not recognise that deterioration; I think it remains a courteous House and it is exemplified, if I may say so, by the noble Baroness the Leader herself. I support what has been said from the opposite Front Bench about behaviour, including remarks about brevity. Perhaps, after the recent intervention by the Captain of the Gentlemen-at-Arms, we should circulate the Oxford English Dictionary to Members.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

I hesitate to intrude on that one. The noble Lord is right but, having said that, there have been moments when I think all of us have been embarrassed when noble Lords do not give way to each other, so I understand the point that has been made. It comes back to respect and courtesy. With the powerful advocacy of the usual channels, we can maintain that. It is always open to noble Lords who wish to change procedure to ask the Procedure Committee to consider any such change.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, there is something I find quite puzzling sometimes, and that is that we have to give way to our right reverend friends the Bishops. I do not understand why that happens. Could the Leader explain that? They always make a very good contribution, but they do have loud voices and can speak up just as we can. The most reverend Primate of England—and the world—the Archbishop of Canterbury actually gave way to me once, for which I was very grateful.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

I think the noble Baroness made the point; Bishops have given way to her. There is no rule that says that you must give way to a Bishop; it is through courtesy, and we would expect to hear from the Bishops, as we hear from other sections of the House.

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

Given that there is an element of politeness—quite properly—I wonder whether underneath that, when trying to get in on a supplementary, there is an element that people who are meek and mild, such as myself, find ourselves fairly easily bullied by those who are less meek and mild. There are some people who are reluctant to get in at Questions because they feel intimidated. That is the other side of this Question. That is why I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I have never considered the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, to be meek or mild but he is always courteous. When I first came into your Lordships’ House, a long-standing Member said to me that previously, on his area of expertise, he wanted to speak but did so rarely that people would give way because they wanted to hear his views on that area. I think it is less about courtesy and more about loudness of voices. If I can just inject something else here, quite often noble Lords have much louder voices than our female Members of the House. It might be a bit thoughtful sometimes if noble Lords would give way to those who do not have such loud voices.