Financial Services Bill
Lord McFall of Alcluith Excerpts(13 years, 7 months ago)
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Lord Stewartby
My Lords, I do not want at any length to add to what many noble Lords have said, except to record that this is one of the most incomprehensible Bills that I have had business with. Several times I started on what I thought was a trail of decisions, and at the end of it I could not work out who did what and how they knew what they should do.
I have one small technical question for my noble friend that is along those lines. I know that “macro” means “long” in Greek. I do not know what is meant by “micro”—which means small—so far as it is applicable to prudential regulation. Is the micro bit about the size of the body being investigated or about the scale of the activities of the regulator? I am not at all clear about this. Having come across these terms “macro” and “micro” regulation, I found myself unable to work out what quite a lot of these fundamental things mean.
Unfortunately, under the old regime there was a lack of clarity about who did what and who was responsible. However, I am not sure that we are getting away from that, as we ought to. It is a difficulty, and I hope that my noble friend can shed a little light on it. Many who have spoken in this short debate have pointed out that the Bill is not very easy to follow, to put it mildly. I would strongly welcome anything that would make it easier.
Lord McFall of Alcluith
My Lords, this is the most important Bill to have come from the coalition. We are expected to right the wrongs of the financial service and have that in place for the next 20, 30 or 40 years. This Bill has been tacked on to the Financial Services and Markets Act, which is why there is such complexity and why it is wrong. The Governor of the Bank of England himself said in June 2011:
“We are losing the simplicity and the ability to have a cleaner debate about the new framework. Certainly the Government rejected our”—
the Bank of England’s—
“request to have a new Bill and the argument that they gave, understandably, was that at the cost of some complexity we could ensure that all the provisions that were appropriate could be put into an amended FSMA and it would be a faster way of doing it”.
He went on, with some understatement:
“I think we have seen the complexity”.
If the comments of noble Lords today are anything to go by, we have not seen anything yet as a result of that. The governor went on:
“I am not quite sure whether we have avoided delay”.
Going back to the crisis of 2007 and 2008, the main issues were complexity, the question of who was in charge and transparency. We are making them worse, rather than better. We are moving from a tripartite system to a quadripartite system. When we ask exactly who is in charge—the deadly question that no one could answer at the time of the financial crisis—it will be equally hard to give a decent answer as a result of this Bill.
That is what is wrong with the Bill. It needs the utmost scrutiny in this Chamber. The other Chamber debated the Bill for 43 hours and 28 minutes. However, the Financial Services and Markets Act was debated for 89 hours and 59 minutes—more than double the time. As a result, the Treasury Committee says, in its frustration, in the first paragraph of its report, that it is now over to the House of Lords to change the Bill. Why does it say that? It says so because Clauses 80 to 103 and Schedules 17 to 21 were not debated due to a lack of time for the programme Motion. We need time for, and simplicity in, the Bill but we are getting complexity. That is the issue that has brought the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, and me together. We are very clear: give us that simplicity, not complexity. The audience that is looking at this from outside may then understand that we have the best interests of the financial services and the country at heart, and we may get a decent Bill out of this.
Lord Peston
My Lords, I told the Minister that I would ask him a question but I forgot to ask it. I hope I will be allowed to ask it before he replies. Its origin is in my getting lost in the Bill. I was in the Public Bill Office and pointed to something on the page—a number, a letter and another number—and said, “I cannot find it”. They flicked the pages over and said to me, “What you need is a Keeling schedule”. I had never heard of a Keeling schedule so I rang the Treasury and asked one of the noble Lord’s assistants what it was. I gather from talking to the Minister earlier that he now knows what it is. I should like him to tell your Lordships’ House what it is and where we can get one, since I gather that it will enable us to find things.
“(2A) Any person appointed under subsection (2)(a) shall be appointed with the consent of the Treasury Committee of the House of Commons.”
Lord McFall of Alcluith
My Lords, on behalf of the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, I am moving Amendment 5 and speaking to Amendment 10, which is consequential on Amendment 5.
As the noble Lords, Lord O’Donnell and Lord Sharkey, said, this is about the concentration of power in and the accountability of the governor in the new financial system. In fact, Alistair Darling, when he appeared before the Joint Committee on the draft Financial Services Bill, called the governor the “Sun King”. I would suggest that we are giving the governor an impossible job. The MPC and FPC require an academic economist of the highest calibre, and we have that in the present governor. However, the Bank of England, as it is comprised now—with the PRA and the FCA and so on—is the equivalent of a multinational enterprise. It requires a chief executive and skills that are separate from those required on the Monetary Policy Committee and the Financial Policy Committee. We make a mistake by not realising that particular point.
I have invited the governor to come here so that all Peers could listen to him, in the hope of understanding and inquiring how he sees the position. He will be departing in 2013, so we are legislating for the future in this respect. Perhaps I may give my own view on the debate taking place at the moment about deputy governors, and so on, as a former chairman of the Treasury Committee and someone who had an intimate association with the governor and others especially during the financial crisis. I believe that the words “deputy governor” relegate the authority of the position. We have a vertical accountability here but we do not have a horizontal accountability. That is what we should be looking at on this issue—how do we get that horizontal accountability?
The noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, was correct about the concept of culture and ethics. I raised the issue of culture and ethics when the Northern Rock problems arose and it was a foreign language to the financial services industry of the time. The people involved thought that we were talking about Moses bringing the tablets down from the hill. However, culture is about behaviour, and ethics is about how you resolve conflicts of interest. It is as simple as that. I was delighted to see that the FSA, after being pressed for many years, has taken on that view. In his last speech before departing, Hector Sants spoke exclusively about the issue of culture. The issue of culture and behaviour is extremely important. If we concentrate on titles, then we will miss the main point. That is the issue that I would like to get across now. We need checks and balances.
My experience with the financial crisis also showed that when the crisis hit, both the Treasury and the Bank of England were found wanting. The Treasury had diminished its financial expertise. I knew the people in the Treasury who had the financial expertise—two of them have left by now, but at the time there were three. That was the situation we were in. If we wanted a response to the financial crisis from the Government we could not get one because they did not have the skills and understanding. The Treasury therefore invited people in from the City to advise it, which is where the problem started in the first place. That is the paucity of the situation at the moment.
Parliament therefore has a very important role to play in terms of the checks and balances. It was acknowledged by the governor and others that the Treasury Committee played an important role in Northern Rock, particularly in the legislation that was put through on “lender of last resort” resolution regimes and so on.
Lord Sassoon
Even if it does not matter, I try. I do my best to answer these points, even if it causes more confusion. Sometimes the “a”s and the “the”s could be very important.
I move on to Amendment 6 tabled by my noble friend Lady Wheatcroft, on which, no surprise, I will not be much more accommodating, but it is an important point that should be discussed. As I said, it is vital that the post be filled by the best possible candidate and taken from candidates who have expertise and skills to fulfil the role effectively. The legislation as it stands does not prohibit the Chancellor consulting widely before recommending that a candidate be appointed as governor. In practice, the Treasury and the Bank work together closely to recruit for key Bank of England posts. I am sure that my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer will engage with key individuals as appropriate during the process to identify the next Governor of the Bank of England. Indeed, well ahead of the formal process kicking off, the chairman of court, Sir David Lees, and the Chancellor are already in touch on this matter.
However, I suggest that we should keep in mind that the appointment is ultimately for the Queen to make on the advice of the Prime Minister and Chancellor. Many people may be consulted as part of the process to appoint a new governor, but it would be impractical to attempt to define them prescriptively in the Bill. By leaving the legislation broad in this way, the Chancellor will be able to consult whoever he or she feels will add value to the advice. The people consulted may well change depending on the circumstances of the appointment. I suggest that that is how to leave the legislation but I hope that I have given the Committee some perspective on how these things will be handled. I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw the amendment.
Lord McFall of Alcluith
My Lords, the aim of the exercise is contained in the Treasury Committee report, which said that an amendment was tabled on Report in the other place but that because of “insufficient time” the Minister did not give an answer. This amendment is to elicit an answer. I suggest that the Minister should think again on this issue.
The noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, said that there is a role for Parliament. If Parliament feels excluded, that does not augur well for the stability of the system. I understand that giving a veto to a parliamentary committee is a bold measure, so I understand the concerns being expressed. The noble Lord, Lord Turnbull, made the point that the Treasury Committee could make a recommendation and the House could look at it. There has to be either a formal or an informal way of including Parliament in this. My noble friend Lord Peston said that if the Governor of the Bank of England left, he would leave the country.
Lord McFall of Alcluith
If he was fired, that would happen. I bring not an exact parallel to the Committee’s attention. A number of months ago, comments were made by members of the present Treasury Committee about the chief executive of the Financial Services Authority. They felt that he was responsible for the demise of the Royal Bank of Scotland. A few weeks later the chief executive, Hector Sands, left. I do not know whether there was a causal relationship. I pointed out to Members of the Committee that if the environment in the other place is charged, it can have unforeseen consequences. Parliament therefore has to be considered.
Lord Peston
My Lords, perhaps I may interrupt as I misunderstood. In my judgment as an economist, the chairman of the Monetary Policy Committee is quite capable of doing some things via that committee that could destroy the whole economy of this country. However, as far as I can see, the rules are that he cannot be fired for that. He can be fired for going bankrupt and one or two other things, but there is no way he can be fired for making a mess of economic policy. I am pretty sure the Bank of England Act does not allow him to be fired for the reasons that my noble friend is raising. If we were asked if we could get him fired for a wrong policy, fine, but it is my understanding that the rules for firing a governor do not include a wrong policy. You may say that is a bit irrational but I am pretty sure that I am right.
Lord McFall of Alcluith
The rules do not include wrong policy and I never suggested that they did, but what I am saying is if there is a charged atmosphere in Parliament and there could be a scapegoat, perhaps the governor or a future governor would leave as a result of that. We must be mindful of that situation and I gave a parallel, if not an exact one, of what happened a few weeks ago on that particular issue. We also have the governor now being appointed for eight years. That was adopted after being suggested by the Treasury Committee and no one has commented on it in this Chamber. I think it is something which needs much more reflection from the Government.
The noble Lord, Lord Burns, spoke about the chairmanship of the court. I would suggest to the noble Baroness, Lady Wheatcroft, that this is a big challenge to the Bank of England, which at the moment is not perceived to have that challenge. That aspect of challenge is really important. I could give noble Lords an example from my time on the Treasury Committee. No names, but I was approached by the representatives of a number of non-executives during the financial crisis and asked if I would see them. They wanted to tell me about the situation on the board of their company and explain why no change was affected by them; my answer was, “Absolutely not. You’re on your own. If you’re a non-executive and you cannot challenge, you should not be on the board. You should leave the board as a result of that”. The aspect of challenge still resonates and we need that. It is the issue that the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, was pointing to and the Minister needs to reflect on it.
The noble Lord, Lord Flight—if I can wake him up, no, I do not think I can—made the point about Mervyn King and economics teaching. He made the distinction that it was the economics teaching that was bad and not the present governor’s teaching—
Lord McFall of Alcluith
Yes, the former, exactly. Economics has lost its way on this issue. I would point the noble Lords to a good letter in the Financial Times yesterday that said economists are there for the well-being of society and that they forgot that. There needs to be a fundamental rethink of the economics curriculum. When Alan Greenspan appeared before the Senate, he said the intellectual edifice that was built up has now crumbled as a result of that.
Other noble Lords have made the point that Amendment 5 is going too far, but we need reflection on it and I can understand where people are coming from. The noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, raised the issue of Parliament’s involvement and pre-appointment consultation. I think the Government can do something in terms of pre-appointment consultation, whether it is overt or covert. I would suggest that if they do not want any further annoyance at the other end of this building, they should reflect on that issue and come back with something in terms of pre-appointment. It can be done, it is feasible.
Baroness Wheatcroft
I thank my noble friend the Minister for his reply; I confess I found it disappointing and I thank those noble Lords who spoke in support of my amendment. I was trying to find a simple means of showing that the court was held in some esteem and had powers to exercise. I do not doubt that informal conversations go on but I am slightly reluctant to rely on informal arrangements when we are trying to strengthen the corporate governance of the Bank. Not just to strengthen the corporate governance but to strengthen the perception of that corporate governance. I would ask my noble friend to think about this matter and maybe other ways in which he might strengthen perceptions of the corporate governance of the Bank. However, I shall not move my amendment.
Lord McFall of Alcluith
With a request to think again, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Brougham and Vaux)
Is it your Lordships’ pleasure that the amendment be withdrawn?
“Retrospective reviews of Bank performance by the court of directors
(1) Section 2 of the Bank of England Act 1998 (functions of court of directors) is amended as follows.
(2) After subsection (5) insert—
“(6) The court shall conduct retrospective reviews of the performance of the Bank with respect to its functions and objectives.
(7) The court shall determine the particular matters to be reviewed under subsection (6).
(8) The court must publish a report on each review carried out under subsections (6) and (7) unless the court decides that all or part of such a report should not be published for reasons of confidentiality or because it would endanger financial stability.
(9) When all or part of a report of a review is not published under the provisions of subsection (8), the court must—
(a) publish as much as possible of the report,(b) send a copy of the full report to the Chairman of the Treasury Committee of the House of Commons or, in exceptional circumstances, inform the Chairman of the Treasury Committee of the reasons for not sending it, and(c) publish the report or part of the report as soon as possible after the court decides that the considerations in subsection (8) no longer apply.””
Lord McFall of Alcluith
This amendment is about corporate governance and the best practices in corporate governance. The Treasury Committee has concluded that the corporate governance in the Bank of England is well short of that in the best public and private institutions. Given the concentration of the regulatory responsibility in the Bank of England, there need to be checks and balances.
The Treasury Committee has recommended a supervisory board, using the term “supervisory” rather than the term “court”. We had a debate about this earlier so I do not want to go over old ground, but this is not really about nomenclature but about powers and responsibilities. Frustration has been expressed over many years, by both parliamentarians and by people who have sat in the court, that the court is toothless. We need to make this an efficient body, so whether we call it an oversight committee or a supervisory committee is immaterial. It is about powers, accountability, best practice and corporate governance. That is the essence of the view in this amendment.
The supervisory court, as the Treasury Committee has recommended, should take an explicit view on the Bank of England’s budget, both in the level of changes to the allocation of resources and in prudential and monetary areas. The inclusion of experts on prudential policy, particularly for the chair of the board, is essential. The board currently comprises 12 members. It is a good suggestion to reduce that number to eight, because the best boards have smaller numbers, and 12 is rather unwieldy.
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, without wanting to endorse the conclusions of the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, from the experience in 2007, yes, of course it would be possible and appropriate for the oversight committee to conduct or commission that kind of review. Without detaining the Committee for much longer, I will address a couple of other points.
Lord McFall of Alcluith
Could the Minister point to where his amendment says that that would be allowed? Looking at proposed new Section 3A(2), I can imagine a very sterile debate between the oversight committee and the Bank or the governor. The function of the oversight committee is to keep,
“under review the Bank’s performance in relation to … the Bank’s objectives”.
If it asked, “Did you stick by your objectives?”, the Bank answered, “Yes”, and the committee said, “We don’t think you did stick by your objectives”, where would it go on that issue? The committee could ask, “Did the Financial Policy Committee do its duty under Section 9C?”. The answer could be, “Yes, it has”, or, “No, it hasn’t”. The Minister needs to point to areas that would allow for the questions that my noble friend Lord Eatwell has asked.
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, I think the critical point here is that the noble Lord, Lord McFall of Alcluith, posited a situation in which this would be, in his words, a sterile debate with the governor. It goes perhaps to the heart of the question that I started with as to why the oversight committee is a committee of the non-executives. It means that it is the oversight committee without the governor or any of the executives of the Bank being members of that committee that takes the decision, under this provision in Amendment 13, to commission reports over a very wide area. So there is no question at the front end of a negotiation with the governor and the executive about whether they would commission a report in those circumstances. That is for the oversight committee to do. We have discussed the timing issue. The report is made and, subject to the issues that we have already discussed, the report is published. I can assure the noble Lord, Lord McFall, that there is no negotiation to be had at that front end. The non-executive oversight committee of the court of the Bank will have a very clear statutory function to take precisely what is proposed in new Section 3A, and it will be untrammelled by any possibility of the sort of sterile debate that the noble Lord suggests might happen. I hope that that reassures him.
I want to address a couple of other points, largely people issues of two kinds here. My noble friend Lord Tugendhat and the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, questioned the need for the governor to consent to the appointment of an internal reviewer. This is intended to be a perfectly straightforward and practical measure. In practical terms, if the person selected is on the verge of leaving the Bank for another post, going on sabbatical or maternity leave, or whatever, the non-executive directors on the court may not necessarily be aware of this, and it is a practical way of ensuring that the appointment works. It also provides the governor, as the person ultimately responsible for the staff who work for him or her, with the opportunity to determine whether the person selected has the capacity to undertake the review in the timescale envisaged without impacting their other responsibilities. There is no more to it than that.
Lastly, I go back to a point which I believe the noble Lord, Lord McFall of Alcluith, made at the beginning about the size of the court. It is not directly the subject of this amendment, but I think that it is worth answering that point. Given that there will be four executive members—the governor and three deputy governors—if the court were reduced to eight, it would not allow for a non-executive majority because we have four insiders on the court. More generally, if there were such a small number of non-executives, it would be difficult to have sufficient diversity of experience and views, which was a point that we discussed earlier and which I completely agree with. If we had a reduction in size, it would be impossible effectively to have a non-executive majority or indeed, as I say, sufficient diversity.
I hope that I have been able to deal with the very understandable and important questions and concerns on this issue so that the noble Lord, Lord McFall, might see his way to withdrawing his amendment and the Committee will support the Government’s amendments.
Lord Phillips of Sudbury
I hope that my noble friend agrees that the noble Lord, Lord Burns, had quite a point. It harks back to earlier discussions about the complexity of drafting. It is the fact, as I hope my noble friend will confirm, that the definition of Court of Directors in Clause 1 of the Bill includes the four executive directors and “not more than 9” non-executive directors—which makes 13. The interplay of the phrase Court of Directors and the new body that is the subject of the government amendment makes for extraordinary complexity in understanding. One thing that my noble friend might consider for the next stage is that when the Bill and his amendment refer to non-executive directors they say non-executive directors, because there are four executive directors—the governor and three deputy governors. They are directors too.
Lord McFall of Alcluith
I thank noble Lords for their contributions. It has been a very interesting debate. I had more of an idea what things are about at the beginning of my speech than I did at the end and whether it is the oversight committee or the court. Perhaps the Minister could just clarify whether the chair of the court will chair the oversight committee and whether the oversight committee will be composed of non-executives, with no officer of the Bank on the oversight committee. I cannot see that detailed in the Bill.
I agree with noble Lords in asking why we need another committee. The reason why I asked the Minister questions earlier was that the Treasury Committee in another place is very firm that this proposal does not plug the gap. In the light of the debate, there needs to be a review from the Government and they need to come back to us on Report so that we can get some clarity when it goes back to the other House. The core of this is corporate governance. If we get good corporate governance on the court, there will be no need for the oversight committee at all.
The noble Lord, Lord Turnbull, had a very good suggestion. Why do we not combine my amendment with the Government’s amendment and then we can come back to this matter, look at it and, I hope, all agree? I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
“Publication of court minutes
(1) Section 2 of the Bank of England Act 1998 (functions of court of directors) is amended as follows.
(2) After subsection (5) insert—
“(6) After each meeting of the court, the Bank shall publish minutes of the meeting before the end of the period of two weeks beginning with the day of the meeting.
(7) Subsection (6) shall not apply to minutes of any proceedings where the court has decided that publication should be delayed for reasons of confidentiality or because publication would endanger financial stability.
(8) Where any part of the court’s minutes is not published under the provisions of subsection (7), the Chairman of the court shall inform the Chairman of the Treasury Committee of the House of Commons of the reasons.
(9) Any part of the minutes of a meeting of the court must be published as soon as the court has decided that the considerations in subsection (7) no longer apply.””
Lord McFall of Alcluith
My Lords, the MPC is obliged to publish minutes of its meetings, but the Financial Policy Committee has just been asked for a record. In the other place, Mark Hoban, the Minister, pointed out that,
“the FPC also produces what it calls a record of its meetings, which is a very full account of the debates that go on in the FPC, and we will expect a similar process to be undertaken for the court’s meetings”.
What is good for the MPC should be good for the FPC as well.
As a veteran of Labour Party constituency meetings during the 1970s and 1980s, I really know the difference between the record of a meeting and the minutes. There can be many battles behind the scenes on that. This is not as arcane debate as we think it is.
When the Minister replied in the other place during the passage of the Bill, Chris Leslie, the opposition spokesperson, said:
“I just want to be clear about what the Minister is saying. Is he saying that when the Bill comes before the other place for consideration he will accept retrospective reviews and publication of minutes or that he will simply consider it?”.
The Minister replied:
“We are clear that we want to see the court’s minutes published”.
The chairman of the Treasury Committee, Andrew Tyrie, then asked a further question:
“when he says that he is committed to the publication of the court’s minutes, does he mean the publication of the full minutes or only a summary record of them, which it appears is what was proposed before”.—[Official Report, Commons, 23/4/12; col. 766.]
That question has still to be answered. This amendment is put down for the sole purpose of eliciting that information.
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
My Lords, I will speak to the amendment standing in the name of my noble friend Lord Eatwell and myself while supporting Amendment 12, moved by the noble Lord, Lord McFall. I am sorry to do so in his absence, but I particularly welcome Amendment 144, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, to which I very happily added my name. The Government responded speedily to a request for the FCA’s minutes to be published, following, I am sure, my intervention at Second Reading and for no other reason. I am pleased about that because it was as late as February that the Government saw the publication of board minutes as a matter for the FCA board rather than for legislation. However, we believe that publication is particularly important when considering the difficulty faced by those seeking to represent the long-term interest of consumers, be they savers, borrowers or debtors, as they follow every twist and turn of a regulator’s wide remit. The minutes are invaluable to lay out the narrative of the FCA’s focus.
The regular publication of minutes is undoubtedly a matter for public policy and therefore correctly in the Bill rather than being for the board itself to decide. After all, it is its work that will be scrutinised by this openness. I know that the Government’s move will be welcomed by Which? and the Financial Services Consumer Panel, as well as by the wholesale market players, for whom the FCA is of particular importance.
However, consumers’ interests go further than the FCA, important though that is. The vital work and the decisions undertaken by the Bank, the FPC and the governor can only benefit from greater debate by, and input from, a range of commentators, be they the press, academics, market participants, representative organisations, other regulators or indeed users. Publication both improves the internal thinking through the debate that it generates and has an important role in accountability. The Government have described the FPC as,
“a powerful new authority sitting at the apex of the regulatory architecture”.
It is therefore beholden on us to ensure that the mechanisms to ensure the FPC’s democratic accountability are commensurate with the strength of its powers. This starts with transparency and the beginning of a new culture of democratic dialogue.
The Treasury Select Committee report of 19 October is already familiar to us and will become more familiar. It argued for the need for clear transparency both in the publication of the remit and in the FPC’s responses. It said:
“There should be the presumption that ex-post reviews would be published, except where confidentiality needed to be maintained”,
in which case a redacted version could be published or publication delayed. It also said that,
“the Chairman of the Treasury Committee should be shown an unredacted version of the findings with an explanation of the reasons for non-publication”.
We endorse that recommendation. The committee also stressed that,
“The date of publication should then”—
in other words, if it has been withheld—
“be reviewed periodically until such a time as full publication would not endanger confidentiality or financial stability”.
I turn to the issues mentioned by my noble friend Lord McFall. Mark Hoban in the other place agreed that there was,
“a clear need for the Bank’s accountability arrangements to be strengthened through the publication of the court’s minutes”.
He agreed that the Government would consider this further when the Bill came to this House for its scrutiny. However, he made it clear that he wanted to see the court’s minutes published, as well as retrospective reviews,
“so that Parliament and stakeholders can hold the Bank to account for the way in which it has used its powers not just when it comes to the Financial Policy Committee”,—[Official Report, Commons, 23/4/12; col. 766-67.]
but more widely. We welcome those sentiments and hope that the Minister will now be able to signify his support for the amendments, which I think are in line with the recommendation of the Minister in the other House.
Lord De Mauley
I think I have an answer. The point is that the principle is as I outlined, whether it is an individual or the committee.
Lord McFall of Alcluith
I apologise to the House; I am away in another world. I still believe that there is quite a difference between a minute and a record. However, given that the Government have come forward with a number of proposals, I withdraw the amendment.
Lord McFall of Alcluith
My Lords, I beg to move this amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, and myself. It is quite a simple amendment. The principle behind it is that the external members of both the Monetary Policy Committee and the Financial Policy Committee should be in the majority, to counter groupthink within the Bank itself. The Treasury Select Committee had taken evidence on this and was very clear on it, as was the Joint Committee on the draft Bill, which recommended that there should be a majority of non-executives on the MPC. Both the Government and the Bank of England disagreed. The Bank of England said very clearly,
“Decisions about the relative numbers of internal and external members of the MPC and FPC are ultimately for Parliament.”.
If those decisions are for Parliament and there is a cross-party consensus on that, Parliament’s will should be observed in this case. The Bank made the point that,
“diluting internal membership to the point where the Committees could not be presented as distinctively Bank Committees would undermine the Government's purpose of asking the Bank to undertake these activities in the first place”.
If the Government feel, as they have said, that increasing the number of external members on the Monetary Policy Committee would make it unwieldy, given that that would take the number to 11, there is a simpler way of doing that. That is to ensure that there are two fewer members of the internal executive on the committee, which would result in the MPC’s internal members numbering four and its external members numbering five. When we talk about external members, I am very much aware of the experience that I had and that you can get groupthink with external members as well.
The concept of diversity is really important and, as was mentioned in other debates in the Chamber today, we should be ensuring that there is representation of women on the committee. The MPC and the FPC have exclusively all-male boards. There are women who were at senior level at the Financial Services Authority and who have now left—for example, Margaret Cole, who was the managing director of its conduct business unit. She made a great contribution in ensuring that the industry listened to the Financial Services Authority, and she made a lot of real improvements on insider dealing. Sally Dewar left the authority too. These women have left, so that needs to be taken into consideration here as well.
One concept that has not been addressed in the financial services industry overall has been the consumer. I battled for years to get a consumer representative on the Financial Services Authority, and we eventually got one on it. Let us think on a wider front and keep in mind the words of the former Monetary Policy Committee member Professor Charles Goodhart, who said, as someone echoed today, that if you are excluding 50% of the population then you do not have the best talent pool. Let us have external members, eliminate groupthink and let the will of Parliament prevail.
Lord Flight
My Lords, my two amendments follow those in the name of the noble Lord, Lord McFall, and are essentially probing. They up the stakes from having six members appointed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer to having eight and require that all members of the FPC are,
“sufficiently independent of the Bank of England”.
To me, the issue is this: the FPC will be crucial. Its job is to detect things going wrong in the financial system and to direct institutions to put things right if they are in trouble. My view is that if the FPC is just part of the Bank of England, it runs the risk of being overdominated by what I will call the Bank of England establishment. It is important that FPC members are independent and, if they can be persuaded, may be people with central bank experience from other economies, who are the sort of people who will be good at the job for which they are chosen.
That gives rise to another issue which I have only just appreciated. The wording is slightly ambiguous. The implication is that members of the FPC must be directors of the Bank of England, members of the court. That seems to be slightly questionable. I am not sure that all members of the Monetary Policy Committee are members of the court. The FPC is parallel to the MPC in its role, and it would not be satisfactory if the Court of the Bank of England got to such a size that it was unwieldy. I question, therefore, and think it might be worth considering, whether there should be the requirement that FPC members are directors of the Bank of England. That does not seem to add anything.
However, the main point is to achieve a body of people that delivers the job it is there to do. It is not directly relevant, but I am mindful that the one banking system that entirely escaped all the troubles of 2007-09 was that of the Lebanon. The governor of the Central Bank of Lebanon, who is a very wise old bird and has seen many things before, spotted the trouble coming in terms of mortgage instruments and kept the banks of the Lebanon out of it all in good time. We want an FPC that, whatever the next problem is that faces us, will be capable of steering in that sort of direction. The wider the experience it has, the better.
Lord Sassoon
The three deputy governors are to be members—I count that up as a six to five ratio. It is not correct that the Bank has seven insiders. The Financial Conduct Authority is an independent regulator, which is emphatically not one of the Bank members. I doubted whether I could count to six at this hour, but it is six. However, I am grateful to my noble friend for getting that clarification.
Lord McFall of Alcluith
Would the Minister expand on that clarification? At present, the MPC contains two deputy governors, Charlie Bean and Paul Tucker, and there will be a third one, who will take the membership up to six. However, there are only four external members of the MPC at the moment: Ben Broadbent, David Miles, Adam Posen and Martin Weale.
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, no change is being proposed to the membership of the MPC, which will remain with five internal and four external members. The third—the new deputy governor—will not join the membership of the MPC. Let me press on.
Financial Services Bill
Lord McFall of Alcluith Excerpts(13 years, 8 months ago)
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Lord Lucas
My Lords, we have to face the fact that we do not do as good a job in Grand Committee as we do in a Committee of the Whole House. There is no opportunity for Peers widely to participate in Grand Committee in the way that there is in the Chamber. Given the importance of the Bill and the depth of interest in it, I hope very much that the Government will listen to what has been said.
Lord McFall of Alcluith
My Lords, perhaps I may remind the House that Finance Bills in the other place are accorded the greatest status by being debated on the Floor of the House. If we are going to have equal status in terms of the scrutiny and examination of this Bill, the least we can do is send a message to the other place that we take this seriously, and that it has to be done on the Floor of the House.
Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke
My Lords, this should not go into Grand Committee, not least because of the historic significance of the past four years and what has happened to financial services—against the background of financial services as a major industry for this country—but also because this is a classic opportunity to showcase the wide range of expertise that is available in your Lordships’ House. This is not a Bill to be put into a corner and forgotten about. It deserves—and the public deserve to see us give—the kind of detailed scrutiny that legislation of this importance merits.
Financial Services Bill
Lord McFall of Alcluith Excerpts(13 years, 8 months ago)
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Lord McFall of Alcluith
My Lords, I am delighted to participate in this debate and to welcome the noble Lord, Lord O’Donnell, to this Chamber. He is an individual with whom I have had many formal and informal dealings. He is a person of the highest integrity, respectful of every individual he meets, irrespective of status, and an exemplary model of a civil servant. It is a model that the Government should ensure they get more of in the years to come as the complexity of the financial services dawns on us. So I welcome the noble Lord, Lord O’Donnell, to this Chamber.
I bring to your Lordships’ attention my entry in the Register of Members’ Interests. Like the noble Baroness, Lady Wheatcroft, I was delighted to be a member of the Joint Committee on the draft Financial Services Bill. A number of areas arose during that committee: first, architecture; secondly, complexity; thirdly, accountability; fourthly, ring-fencing; and, fifthly, and most importantly—a phrase to which we all signed up—that to be successful the reforms will have to change the regulatory culture and philosophy. Those should be the guiding principles.
We all agreed that architecture is of secondary importance. The issues that matter are culture, conduct and communication. These issues were key to what went wrong with the tripartite authority. Alastair Darling’s devastating evidence to the Joint Committee brought that out.
On the issue of complexity, we should note that we are moving from a tripartite to a quadripartite system involving Her Majesty’s Treasury, the Monetary Policy Committee, the Financial Policy Committee and the Prudential Regulation Authority, not to mention the Financial Conduct Authority. We have more interfaces, and therefore a higher degree of complexity. It was the interfaces and the information that fell down between them on the last occasion that caused the problem.
The question that bedevilled the tripartite authority when it came before the then Treasury Committee in the House of Commons was very simple: who is in charge? Everyone said that they did their job properly. However, we had to face one of our biggest crises with a vacuum in the making and no clarity for the Chancellor. The Minister rather boldly said at the Dispatch Box that never again would we ask who was in charge. I suggest that those words could come back to haunt him in years to come if the Government do not get the correct legislation.
As other noble Lords have said, at present we have opaque decision-making structures and still require clarity and explicit guidance and information, either through memorandums of understanding or whatever, on the view of the governor and his key deputies. We should remember that on many occasions the governor and his deputies will have contradictory views as a result of the responsibilities they are given and that the Chancellor must have clarity from them. There has to be no hiding place so that we can answer the question about who is in charge, but at present we cannot do that.
I mentioned the issue of regulated culture and philosophy. Business models are the key to understanding the issues within a company, from the policies followed to the individual behaviour of the executives. Auditors are the key to this. A number of years ago I asked auditors what the point of an audit was. It is presently a backward look at accounts. Auditors are doing everything that is required but not much of what is expected. This was illustrated by Northern Rock. In the first six months of 2007, this small building society was responsible for 20 per cent of all new mortgages in the United Kingdom. The chair of the Audit Committee, and not least the auditors, should have asked why the company was doing so well compared to others. However, that question was not asked.
Auditors therefore need to give a realistic view of the state of a company, taking into consideration the present and the possible future risks. I suggest that auditors should report to the Financial Policy Committee so that it understands both the microeconomic and the company landscape environments in an area of no more sensitivity than risk.
At the moment, risk is a black box. This was illustrated in the comments made by Professor John Kay and Professor Charles Goodhart to the Treasury Committee a number of years ago. When asked whether we could evaluate risk, Professor Goodhart said very clearly, “No”. Professor John Kay said, “I have been teaching at Oxford University for 25 years and I have ripped up my notes on risk”. So risk is a black box, and more regulations and rules alone are not the way forward.
We have to recognise that no regulator in the world spotted the problem. The Governor of the Bank of England said that the regulators were like locusts in Citibank. JPMorgan Chase is the latest example in the City, with the “London Whale” and a loss of £2 billion. Ten regulators were sitting in JPMorgan Chase when it happened. The question that arises out of that is: why did Jamie Dimon, someone supposedly alert and cute, need a call from Bloomberg to tell him that there was a £2 billion loss to his company? Jamie Dimon retorted by saying that it was a “tempest in a tea pot”, but if you put your arm right next to a tea pot, you can get a really bad burn. Maybe he did not realise that.
The situation of JPMorgan Chase and others reflects a systemic breakdown in management and risk control systems. Incidentally, the chief risk officer receives $14 million a year before foreign excises, so I would have thought that the risk officer could take quite a bit of a risk if $14 million is going into a current account as a result. I suggest that the Treasury Committee or other committees of the House should invite Jamie Dimon to explore the concept of risk and ask this question: are the largest banks still too big and complex to be managed safely? Are we now seeing “too big to fail” being followed by “too big to behave” in companies such as this one?
The way forward lies in good corporate governance to tackle these deep-seated problems, not only changing the way people behave but the way they think. We need to promote values and a culture that drives people to do the right thing even when no one—that is, the regulator—is looking. Culture is behaviour and ethics is resolving conflicts of interest. That is what the Government should be promoting. The motto of the City of London is, “My word is my bond”. In a recent survey, over 80% of people working in the City did not realise that. In other words, there is a big repair job to be done in order to restore trust.
I am delighted to see that the departing chief executive of the Financial Services Authority devoted his last speech to culture. That is a small but positive step. If we focus more on these issues, we can hope eventually to realise a market system that is fair to both consumers and businesses, where risk is rewarded, failure punished, and growth and employment are paramount.
Scotland Bill
Lord McFall of Alcluith Excerpts(13 years, 10 months ago)
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Lord Browne of Ladyton
My Lords, I welcome the amendment. It is entirely consistent with a request that I have made repeatedly for reports on current progress in relation to the transfer of these powers. I hope that in anticipation of Third Reading, Ministers will take some time over the Recess to prepare at least an outline of a report on progress for the transfer of these powers to the Scottish Parliament. I say that for the reasons that I have articulated. I have a belief, based on information that I have received, that the Scottish Government and their Civil Service are ill prepared for the transfer of these powers. I should like to be reassured that we are transferring powers to people who are building the competence to use them appropriately.
In response to the point made and repeated by the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, about the buy-in of Scottish Ministers, there is a reference in subsection (2) of the proposed new clause to an obligation on Scottish Ministers to report in a similar way to the Secretary of State. However, it is deficient in the sense that it does not satisfy the desire on these Benches, which is apparently shared across the House, that the Scottish Government and the Scottish Parliament should buy in more fully to the whole package of transferring taxation powers for the reason that I gave before. I repeat that some time in the future they may be tested against that package and they should own it. That can be done only if they agree. If they do not agree, it will be interesting to hear their explanation, but I suspect that if it is put to them they will find it so impossible to agree that they will agree.
The reports, which we understand from the Government will be used to answer some of the points that I made earlier, do not in their present form answer those points, although I accept entirely what the Minister said about the Government’s intention to augment the reports in the way he suggested. I do not doubt that for a moment, so he should be clear that I accept entirely that that undertaking can be guaranteed to be delivered. I sense that it will not be enough but I do not want to go back to Amendment 16. I welcome the proposed new clause as it stands and as far as it goes, but it does not go far enough.
Lord McFall of Alcluith
Under the proposed new clause as far as it goes, I was taken with the Minister’s comment about taxation being an instrument of redistribution, as Calman noted. If that is the case, we need a deeper appreciation of the transfer of these powers. It is not just about money but how that money is spent. There is no association between tax levels and growth. As a Scottish citizen, I want to ensure that money from income tax in Scotland is spent properly and that I will benefit as a result.
As far as concerns subsection (5)(d) of the proposed new clause, it is important that the issue is looked at. As was suggested, Scottish public services are inefficient even by miserable UK standards. The Scottish health service, for example, spends 19 per cent more per person, and we have 30 per cent more doctors, yet in many cases—such as cancer survival levels for women—there are worse outcomes. This is a very important issue. If we are going to look at income tax levels, we should have reports from the Scottish and UK Parliaments to ensure that we spend our money in the proper way—as an instrument of redistribution, as Calman suggested.
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, I will respond briefly to the points raised. The noble Lord, Lord McFall of Alcluith, articulated what goes to the heart of the Bill. It was a bit away from the limited but important role of the new reports that we are suggesting, which will deal with implementation and cover important things such as the criteria in the Command Paper that we discussed. I completely agree with him about the need for broader accountability. That will be precisely what the Bill takes to the Scottish people and to the Scottish Parliament.
In answer to my noble friend Lord Caithness, I say that the noble Lord, Lord Browne of Ladyton, has already drawn attention to the obligation, in subsection (2) of the proposed new clause, on Scottish Ministers to submit a report. My noble friend shakes his head. Perhaps he would like to see one report agreed between the two Parliaments. I am not sure what further step he would like to see, but it was felt appropriate, since there are two Governments representing separately the people and interests of Scotland and the UK, to have two reports with slightly different perspectives.
The Scottish Parliament will have access to both reports. In the working up to the reports, the Joint Exchequer Committee and the other fora for joint working will be engaged in all the work. Any difference in the reports on the progress that is being made on implementation will be wholly transparent, but I do not anticipate that there will be any such difference. There will be a report by Scottish Ministers, it will be clear to everybody how the reports link to each other, and I fully expect them to present a consistent picture of the progress that is being made.
I appreciate what the noble Lord, Lord Browne of Ladyton, said in welcoming the reports. I fully understand, in the context of our earlier discussion, that the proposal does not go as far as he would like, but it is appreciated that he understands that this is a step forward which will help with reassurance on implementation.
The final point that the noble Lord made, which we discussed in Committee, was on the question of how well prepared or otherwise the Scottish Government are to take on the challenge. There are three further years to go. I appreciate that it is a big challenge. The UK Government are sharing all relevant expertise. Ministers from both the UK and Scottish Governments are overseeing progress. Now that the substance of the Bill has been agreed, we hope that the emphasis and focus will move to implementation, which I accept is an important challenge.
Economy: Budget Statement
Lord McFall of Alcluith Excerpts(13 years, 10 months ago)
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Lord McFall of Alcluith
My Lords, I am delighted to participate in this debate and particularly to follow the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, whose civic award this week from Liverpool was richly deserved.
The power and influence of the social media in the form of Twitter were in evidence immediately after the Budget. Within minutes of the Chancellor sitting down after a carefully crafted and supposedly voter-friendly speech, it was labelled a “granny tax” Budget. The Chancellor’s tactical nous, for which he is supposedly famous, has let him down, and I suggest that there is a reason for that; every dot and comma of this Budget was publicly debated with his coalition partners. There were no surprises, save one.
As a keen observer of Chancellors and Budgets, I saw the Chancellor lose eye contact with his audience, bow his head to the Dispatch Box and say sotto voce that he was simplifying the system for age-related allowances for pensioners on the basis that they did not understand it. I along with others said, “Wow”. I suggest to your Lordships that pensioners certainly do understand the system now. Incidentally, the NAO last examined it on behalf of the Government in 2009, so the Government did not base their calculations on real-time information. This is a Budget that raises £4 billion, with £1.5 billion coming from pensioners. Almost half the revenue is coming from pensioners. I suggest that the “granny tax” storm will take some time to abate.
The Budget was big on politics but small on economics, being fiscally neutral. According to the Government, the extra £150 million of borrowing incurred on their watch left them with no room for manoeuvre: hence the Budget’s political emphasis, with the Chancellor eyeing the leadership and being the darling of the right wing of the Tory party at the expense of Nick Clegg—goodness knows why he went along with it.
Lords spiritual in this House regularly emphasise the concepts of faith, hope and charity. Let us look at those concepts in the context of the Budget. On faith, for all the emphasis on business innovation and investment, the OBR has drastically pruned its forecast for growth for 2012 following very weak figures for the last quarter of 2011. With recovery predicted at 0.8 per cent, the economy is not far from stagnation, so the Chancellor really is left on the sidelines, fingers crossed, and praying for sunny uplands in 2017. He has reduced corporation tax, which on the surface is a good initiative, but as Martin Wolf and others have described it in today’s Financial Times, this could be a zero-sum game, with global competition ensuring a race to the bottom. The interaction with personal income tax would encourage corporate retentions. We might therefore be exacerbating an investment black hole, with corporations hanging on to their money. The big issue is how we ensure confidence among those corporations to invest.
On hope, the issue of jobs and growth has been mentioned, but the Chancellor barely used the word “growth”, which I think was banned in his coverage of the Budget yesterday. However, what are we doing about the 1 million young people who are unemployed to give them any hope for the future? What are we doing about the north-south divide? I applaud the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, for engaging in that, because instead of coherence between north and south, there is a divergence that will be to the detriment of the country. The prospects for the country will be diminished.
There is stronger case for fiscal stimulus this year than there was last year. Two members of the MPC, David Miles and Adam Posen, are calling for that—indeed, Adam Posen has long been on record as saying that the country needs a spare tyre for lending to small and medium-sized enterprises. I would have liked to see the Government ask in the Budget, “How can we create our own Mittelstand in this country, where we can support small businesses, rebalance our economy and take a renewed, fresh approach to manufacturing?”. I suggest to the Minister that it is not too late to consider the concept of a British investment bank, espoused by the noble Lord, Lord Skidelsky, and others, because banks do not lend to small and medium-sized enterprises because there is not much money in it for them. That is the basic issue that we must face. Therefore, the Government have a job to do to stimulate the economy in that area. We also have the tyranny of the PSBR, which I have cried out for Chancellors to sort out in the past. Why do we not do that, so that we could look at our economy afresh and ensure that it had a social dimension as well as a strict economic one?
On charity, the Budget will be judged on the fairness agenda. The esteemed philosopher, Amartya Sen, came to a Treasury Committee hearing quite a number of years ago and made the point that there is a connection between effort and reward, and that people judge fairness on the basis of that connection. I put it to this House that, while 14,000 people earning £1 million per annum will receive a tax cut of more than £40,000 each year, a family with children earning £20,000 will lose around £700 when the cuts and the VAT increase are taken into consideration. Undoubtedly, the winners from the Budget include the rich people, who can save lots of money, while the vast majority of taxpayers are given £14 a month as a result of the Liberal Democrat-inspired tax threshold initiative. The leader of the Liberal Democrats, Nick Clegg, has called this a Robin Hood Budget. However, far from the poor benefiting, the rich will benefit; it is the opposite way round. I suggest to noble Lords that we look at it as a Robbing Who? Budget. That will be the question reverberating around the country over the coming months.
Aspiring citizens have been hit as well. At a stroke, the Chancellor has just created an extra 300,000 new 40p higher-rate taxpayers, which has gone unnoticed, because he has reduced the tax threshold to £41,450. A family with a few children, having an income at that level, are now in the higher tax band. That will have a very serious effect on family finances. It will be the less well off, the middle-income and the aspiring and upwardly mobile citizens who in this Budget will be well and truly mugged.
There was reference in the past to Mondeo man and woman. What price Mondeo man and woman now? I suggest that with every passing day, the chances of Mondeo man and woman thumbing a lift rather than owning the vehicle will increase.
Banking: Accounting Standards
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Lord Sassoon
My Lords, the structure of the various bodies that fall under the Financial Reporting Council is a matter for the Financial Reporting Council. I do not believe for one minute that anything it does to the structure of the number of bodies under the FRC will weaken the very distinguished and important contribution which the UK makes to international standard-setting.
Lord McFall of Alcluith
My Lords, has the fatal flaw not been the ability of banks and other financial institutions to book future projected income as profits—profits which did not materialise and on which bonuses were paid, thereby skewing the incentives of the whole financial sector industry? There is a time here for reassessment, and that is a black hole at the centre of these proposals.
Lord Sassoon
Again, this is an important issue. The Government have taken significant steps to increase both the transparency and the FSA rules around the payment of bonuses. However, we should be careful about this. First, it is worth noting that under UK GAAP, before IFRS was introduced, banks were required to account at fair value for their trading portfolios. Of course, accounting at fair value requires assets to be marked both up and down. It is certainly the case that under IFRS there were certain portfolios that previously would not have been counted as trading portfolios, which now are. However, we have to be very careful about attributing all that went on with banking bonuses to the accounting requirements. If I may suggest so, that was a small part of what was undoubtedly a series of inappropriate behaviours at the heart of the industry.
Finance: Credit Rating Agencies
Lord McFall of Alcluith Excerpts(13 years, 11 months ago)
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Lord Sassoon
My Lords, my noble friend conflates a number of interesting questions. The key point is that the UK is in a very strong position to look at ultra-long or perpetual bonds. We have historically very low rates of interest and significant investor demand, particularly from the domestic funds, for very long-dated gilts. In response to that situation, we think that it is right to consult the market, as my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has indicated we will do, and to see what it has to say, but we will not make any issue unless it represents good value for the taxpayer.
Lord McFall of Alcluith
My Lords, given that the credit rating agencies have demonstrated a consistent lack of accuracy, have failed in their governance, are flawed in that the person paying for the rating has to ask for it, and competition is non-existent, will the Minister encourage investors in the City to establish their own credit rating agencies on a not-for-profit basis? At a stroke, they would remove conflicts of interest, introduce healthy competition and establish accurate credit rating figures. Let us remember that all the credit rating agencies gave Northern Rock a AAA rating immediately before its demise.
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, while we should not underestimate the difficulties with the credit rating agencies historically, equally we do not want to make the situation sound more dramatic than it is. On sovereign ratings, the IMF’s analysis in the autumn of 2010 indicated that the rating agencies had performed relatively well and that, in all cases of sovereign default since 1975, they had had those sovereigns on speculative grade ratings at least one year ahead. I have already given some answers as to how we should introduce competition. If one of the vehicles that comes in is of the sort which the noble Lord, Lord McFall, mentioned, that would be up to the market and it should not be prevented from using it.
EU: Fiscal Compact Treaty
Lord McFall of Alcluith Excerpts(14 years ago)
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Lord Sassoon
My Lords, now that there is a realistic assessment of what capital is required, there is a clear agreement on the timetables and methods for doing that and it is well within the capacity of the eurozone to do it. I do not think we should speculate on what happens if they fail to do it. The eurozone, its Governments and the European Central Bank have all the firepower necessary.
Lord McFall of Alcluith
My Lords, Europe and the UK will be going nowhere unless competitiveness is restored to individual countries. Does the noble Lord agree that at the heart of any fiscal compact should be a policy of growth and investment? Even from our position in the wings of Europe, will the Government agree to ensure that such a policy is implemented, not least to help the many millions of young people who are now unemployed all over Europe?
Lord Sassoon
I very much agree with the sentiments of the noble Lord. The one part of them that I disagree with is that we are not sitting on the sidelines but are very much at the heart of the discussions about pro-growth policies and the completion of the single market.
Independent Commission on Banking
Lord McFall of Alcluith Excerpts(14 years, 1 month ago)
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Lord Sassoon
My Lords, I well recognise the consistency, firmness and clarity with which my noble friend has held his views on separation from very early on in this debate; we discussed it three years ago. However, the Government agree with the ICB that full separation is not the route to go down. I say to him that having independent directors on the boards of the ring-fenced banks will go a long way towards making up for, as he puts it, possible deficiencies of top management and their ability to get around these things. Having independent directors of ring-fenced subsidiaries is a model that has worked well in utility companies. As he says, it is right that the Bank of England will be watching this in its new role of supervising the system.
Lord McFall of Alcluith
My Lords, when Sir John Vickers appeared before the Draft Financial Services Bill Joint Committee, it was clear that his report would not solve the “too big to fail” issue. What was required was a good regulatory structure, and no regulator globally succeeded in that.
In the draft Financial Services Bill report there were a number of issues relating to the governance of the Bank of England, and I should like an assurance from the Minister that the Government will take these all-party proposals very seriously. As a previous speaker said, culture is more important than architecture. I think that will be one of the main recommendations of our report.
The Minister mentioned the issue of switching current accounts. Will he accept that the portability of current account numbers is the key? That revolutionised the mobile phone industry. Only with the portability of current account numbers will we see a revolution in switching accounts in the banking industry.
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, I can confirm to the noble Lord, Lord McFall of Alcluith, that the Joint Committee’s report, which was published only today, will be taken very seriously on governance and all the other matters that are contained in it. As to switching accounts, I hear what he says about number portability, which is not at all an easy issue, as he well knows. All I would say is that the ability for seven-day switching, including all direct debits, credits and standing orders—which we now have the banks’ agreement will be implemented by September 2013—is a significant advance that will help millions of consumers.
Economy: Deficit Reduction
Lord McFall of Alcluith Excerpts(14 years, 1 month ago)
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Lord Sassoon
My Lords, it is very important that credit flows to SMEs, which is why we announced a package of £21 billion at the autumn Statement, and it could go higher if the demand is there. I take my noble friend’s point about the importance of diversity and new entrants into our banking system. That is something that both the FSA and the Government keep under review.
Lord McFall of Alcluith
My Lords, given that the stability message has failed, is it not time now for a growth strategy? Given the appalling figures on unemployment for both young people and others in the country, is there not hope to be given to people? Given that the Government can borrow, with the low interest rates, at a rate less than the private sector, is it not time to invest in infrastructure projects so that we come out of this recession and not make it a depression?
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, that is exactly what we are doing: we are investing in infrastructure projects. Indeed, as was announced at the autumn Statement, we are targeting an additional £20 billion of private sector money coming into infrastructure from long-term UK investors. As to the policy mix, I can only refer back to the IMF’s latest assessment which said that the case for relatively tight fiscal and relatively loose monetary policy is strong.