Justice and Security (Northern Ireland) Act 2007 (Code of Practice) Order 2013

Lord McAvoy Excerpts

Thursday 20th June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bew]

I thank the noble Baroness for introducing this statutory instrument and broadly offer my support. Since the Court of Appeal’s ruling in May of this year, it is clear that this matter has acquired a degree of urgency and I understand why the Government want to move so quickly. Broadly speaking, I accept her words when she says that the right balance has been achieved between civil liberties and the need to preserve public security.

However, I have one slight reservation. Paragraph 8.4 of the Code of Practice for the Exercise of Powers in the Justice and Security (Northern Ireland) Act 2007 states:

“The use of these powers can protect people’s rights under the European Convention on Human Rights, such as Article 2 (the right to life) by preventing serious harm posed by use of unlawful munitions and wireless apparatus. However, if these powers are exercised there may be some interference with other rights under the Convention, such as the right to private life, and this should be borne in mind when officers judge it necessary to use these powers”.

This is under the part of the code dealing with search for and seizure of munitions and transmitters. My slight problem with that phrasing is that it seems to say that there are two rights. It does not do so explicitly but it leads into it. One is the right to a private life and the other is the commitment that the police must have, under the European convention, to protect life. Following the Court of Appeal ruling, we are putting this problem back with the officers on the ground, and it is probably reasonable to make it clearer. I think that Parliament properly believes that the right to life, in certain circumstances, trumps the right to a private life for a person who might be under investigation. There is just an element of equivocation in the drafting there, which suggests an apparent equality of rights. I accept that it does not actually equate those rights but it certainly does not prioritise one right over another.

Noble Lords will remember that we have expected officers in the last few days, in the lead-up to the G8 summit, to protect world leaders who are in Northern Ireland. They might have been in a situation of trying to intercept ammunition that was being moved around Northern Ireland. I cannot imagine that it would be enormously helpful for them to have to have in mind that they must, on the one had, weigh up their views on the right to life—we all have the right to life but in this case it is the lives of some very important people—and at the same time have to bear that in mind that they might be interfering with the private life of the person driving the car. There is a real problem of balance here and I just think that the drafting is slightly too glib. I am not in any way going to push this point but think it is worth registering. Broadly speaking, I accept the reason for the statutory instrument and accept entirely the defence that has been offered this afternoon by the Minister.

[Lord McAvoy]

My Lords, I, too, thank the Minister for the clear exposition of the powers outlined in the code of practice. There is a very wide range of powers affecting the Police Service of Northern Ireland and the Armed Forces and it is right and proper that there should be a well thought out code of practice governing the exercise and use of those powers. We all know the situation in Northern Ireland, where the authorities, the police and the Armed Forces have to be seen to be absolutely foursquare in their application of those powers. This code of practice builds in safeguards for the use of the powers for all in the community.

Security in Northern Ireland is of the utmost importance to all noble Lords in this House and we are united in our commitment to ensuring that people in Northern Ireland are safe and secure. The men and women officers of the Police Service of Northern Ireland do their jobs with bravery and dedication. The measures in the Act play a hugely important role in combating terrorism and protecting communities in Northern Ireland and it is very important that they are overseen by rigorous, independent scrutiny. That is encompassed in the code of practice, which is vital to maintaining public confidence in Northern Ireland in the exercise of these powers. We on this side of the House are happy to lend our support, in the best traditions of bipartisanship, and understand the reasons for the urgent nature of the measure. I would like to place on record that Her Majesty’s Loyal Opposition give their full support to this order.

[Baroness Randerson]

I thank both noble Lords who have participated in this brief debate for their support and I will do my best to respond to the points raised. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Bew, for his broad support. He referred to paragraph 8.4 of the code and read an extract from it. I hope noble Lords will bear with me if I read some further extracts in response to illustrate my point.

The noble Lord referred to the balancing of the two rights. If you read the code as a whole you will see that it acknowledges the supreme importance of the right for one’s life to be protected and the obligation to protect life. There was a long consultation on this code and changes were made to it as a result, so it has been fairly thoroughly looked at. If you look further in the code, paragraph 8.6 says:

“Officers should exercise consideration when entering and searching premises. If entry is forced, officers should endeavour to cause as little damage as possible … officers must ensure the building is left secure”.

Paragraph 8.8 makes the point that:

“Where practicable, officers should seek the co-operation of any person in the dwelling”.

Paragraph 8.9 says:

“Officers should exercise their powers courteously and with respect for persons and property”.

So it goes on.

When the code deals with the need to enter premises—which may be a building but could be a field or vehicle—it acknowledges that you have to recognise that people, as well as having the right to have their life protected, also have a right to a private life. It goes on to explain that one right has to be exercised with a view to the other. I believe the code of practice enshrines the right balance.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, for his support. He referred to the importance of the code building on safeguards. He paid a very important tribute to the PSNI. The police service in Northern Ireland is a devolved issue, but the code was developed in very close collaboration with it, and my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland keeps very close links with the PSNI. Its involvement in the drafting of this code is essential to its smooth operation in the months and years to come. Finally, the noble Lord referred to the importance of rigorous scrutiny and put his finger on the key point. A process of rigorous scrutiny provides the transparency that ensures the integrity of the process. I hope the noble Lords will feel able to support the order.

Justice and Security (Northern Ireland) Act 2007 (Extension of duration of non-jury trial provisions) Order 2013

Lord McAvoy Excerpts

Tuesday 4th June 2013 Grand Committee

We therefore owe the judiciary in Northern Ireland a debt of gratitude for consistency over many decades because it has kept civilisation and the rule of law together. It is not perfect and is not the way that we would like it to be but, unfortunately, I do not see any short to medium-term alternative but to continue to renew this measure. However, I ask the noble Baroness to consider this: if the intention of the initial legislation in 2007 was that it should be short-term, and we continue to renew it in two-year bites, is someone going to judicially review this whole thing and say, “That was not the original intention of Parliament. It was short-term, what you are doing is continuing to renew and renew. You are actually carrying out a purpose for which the original legislation was never intended”? The department should bear that in mind.

[Lord McAvoy]

My Lords, again I thank the Minister for her clear outline of the order. For the purpose of this discussion, I thank my two friends, the noble Lords, Lord Bew and Lord Empey, for bringing as usual to these discussions weight, knowledge and a firm understanding of what is at stake in Northern Ireland. They have long experience there, which we are lucky to have brought to this Room. I share with all noble Lords and noble Baronesses the reluctance, but nevertheless acceptance of the need, to proceed with the renewal of the order. It is entirely necessary but none of us likes it. There is merit in what the noble Lord, Lord Empey, said about a review at some point and we would all be delighted to have that review and for it to recommend the discontinuation of the legislation. However, we are not there yet.

In the interests of information and getting a clear picture of what is happening on the ground regarding these issues, the Minister outlined the number of cases. She mentioned only one terrorist-based organisation, which was republican. Does that mean that there were no instances of charges involving, for want of a better description, the loyalist/militant unionist community? Perhaps that is a bit of a misnomer. That is not to say that we are in some sort of competition to see who is causing more trouble than anyone else; it is for the sake of giving noble Lords here a grasp of the situation. That would inform us and enable us to get a better picture.

However, it is quite clear that we are all in agreement and the Labour Front Bench strongly supports this move and joins everyone in this Room in hoping that this is near enough the last continuation of these provisions.

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for their contributions. I agree wholeheartedly with the last sentiment expressed by the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy. We would all agree that we very much hope that this will be the last time that this order has to be renewed.

I shall start with the contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Bew. I was perhaps not clear in what I said. There was a two-stage process in the consultation. The Secretary of State canvassed opinion among stakeholders and, having taken those initial soundings, she decided to hold a formal consultation. It was formal but limited in the number of organisations that were consulted and the response rate did not indicate that there was any burning concern in a number of organisations. Three of the responses from the organisations did not agree with the renewal, although one of them was a group of academics in Australia which was not a formal part of the consultation. The reasons given by the people who live in the community directly affected by this were largely to do with there being a lack of evidence of intimidation. Of course, one is struck by the fact that if this system is working well, it prevents intimidation, and therefore, it if has worked successfully, there will be little evidence of intimidation. For example, the director of the Committee on the Administration of Justice expressed frustration at the lack of available evidence of juror intimidation and questioned the degree of discretion afforded to the Director of Public Prosecutions in issuing the certificate. The tenor of the reply was concern that there was no evidence.

I share the concern expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Empey, about the current violence. It is worth pointing out that there is a large number of unsuccessful attempts at violence and terrorism. I shall give some examples. So far this year, in relation to national security attacks, there have been 68 arrests, 32 charges and 19 seizures. That is a sign of the success of the PSNI operation. The noble Lord raised the possibility of judicial review. It is always a possibility, and the Northern Ireland Office is aware of it. I will ensure that the point is made to the Secretary of State and that she is aware of the noble Lord’s comments.

The noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, asked about loyalist attacks. The concern about terrorism is primarily about dissident republicans but, of course, there is another issue about loyalist unrest, the nature of which we saw during the flag protests, which became violent on a number of occasions. There were death threats and violence against the police, and a considerable number of police were injured in the early days of those protests. We need to be aware of the issue, in that there is a different face to concern in both those communities.

Finally, we have to bear in mind that in Northern Ireland people are particularly vulnerable to paramilitary intimidation. It is greater than it is in the rest of the UK because, as noble Lords know very well from their own experience, people live in small, close-knit communities. It is particularly easy to identify those called for jury service, which is at the heart of the problem. We have to be concerned about the intimidation or potential intimidation of jurors by people representing both sides of the community. I commend the order to the Committee.

Representation of the People (Northern Ireland) (Amendment) Regulations 2013

Lord McAvoy Excerpts

Tuesday 4th June 2013 Grand Committee

[Lord Empey]

My Lords, I have a number of issues that I would like to raise with the Minister. She refers to the high number of inaccurate entries on the current register. In her wind up can she give the Committee some up-to-date figures as to what in her opinion the accuracy level of the register is at present? It is a continuous process but people perhaps become less exercised by it and do not follow through; if they move house and move around and so on, it is definitely an issue.

With regards to the reference that you are going to support research by NISRA into alternatives to the 2021 census, I think many people felt that the census was an extremely costly process. The information also decays very rapidly with time. Ten years is a long time in public policy and needs change. If it is possible to have a more accurate and running figure when one is making public policy and spending decisions, there is merit in that. Quite frequently we had to make decisions on the basis of previous censuses which obviously were very inaccurate by the time we got to them.

The Northern Ireland Electoral Commission also recommended changes to the way the canvass form is set, which would require primary legislation. The Government are considering this recommendation. Can the noble Baroness tell us where that thought process is at and whether the Government have decided to accept this recommendation? Will a law come forward?

The one issue to which I want to draw the Committee’s attention is that of confidentiality. We all know about the Census (Confidentiality)(Northern Ireland) Order 1991 but I have to tell noble Lords that there is considerable anxiety among many people that the spread of information—the number of agencies from which the information is both drawn from and goes to—means that a very large number of people have access to it. No matter what is said, given that lip service is always paid to confidentiality, I am not clear about what is actually being done about this, so I would be grateful for an indication of what processes and decisions to implement it are in place. The fact is that people are still being targeted and, sadly, we have seen evidence of that over the past six months. A number of people are nervous about having their names appear on the electoral register, and yet they are under a legal obligation to provide information for electoral purposes. That information will be spread around a large number of public bodies whether they want it or not. In the past, I have listened to Ministers say that it is an issue and they are looking at it but I am unclear as what has ever been done about it. It is an extremely difficult problem to solve. Once information is passed to public bodies, it is in the system where loads of people have access to it, and it is not clear to me how that information is controlled.

I would be grateful if the noble Baroness could address these issues in her response to the Committee.

[Lord McAvoy]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for her clear outline of the regulations. It is extremely important, particularly in Northern Ireland, that there is a continual process of encouraging people to register, despite the obvious difficulties quite rightly mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Empey. The issue of confidentiality is the only point I wish to raise.

Paragraph 8.4 of the Explanatory Memorandum explains that the Information Commissioner’s office made,

“recommendations in relation to the contents of the data arrangements between”,

various organisations and bodies in Northern Ireland. Is the noble Baroness able to share with us what those recommendations were, or at the very least at this stage say what the issues were that led the Government to further consider these recommendations? If she cannot do so today, perhaps she will write to me and the noble Lord, Lord Empey.

The Opposition Front Bench supports what the Government are doing here and would encourage them to make sure as best they can that people register and take part in the democratic process in Northern Ireland. I know that I have sprung a question on her, but if the information regarding the Information Commissioner’s Office is available and it is possible share it, I would be grateful.

[Baroness Randerson]

I thank both noble Lords who have spoken for their contributions and those noble Lords who have attended and shown interest in this debate. I will do my best to answer the questions posed and, as ever, I will review the record afterwards and write to noble Lords who are here if I have any further information to add.

The noble Lord, Lord Empey, asked about the completeness of the register and its accuracy. The parliamentary register is considered to be 73% complete and the local government register is considered to be 71% complete. The accuracy for both registers is considered to be 78%. That gives us 22% inaccuracy. It is in the interests of democracy that we make the register as accurate as possible because inaccurate names will not increase the turnout; in fact, they would probably do the reverse. Therefore, it is important that we have a very accurate register in Northern Ireland.

I am pleased that the noble Lord welcomed using NISRA for the census and approaching the census information in a different way. The recommended changes to the canvass form that he referred to are in the primary legislation currently before the other place: the Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill. They will allow very broad parameters to be set by government. The form will be designed by the Electoral Commission. In my view and that of the Government, that is very much more satisfactory because, after all, the Electoral Commission has a wealth of experience and its approach has been honed in other parts of Britain.

I shall go back to the census and the issue about confidentiality raised by both noble Lords. Part of the benefit of information sharing with NISRA is improving its ability to obtain information relevant to the census. Confidentiality is a difficult issue, as the Northern Ireland Office is very aware. There was a public consultation on anonymous registration, and provisions on it are currently being considered. It is important to bear in mind that people do not have to have their address advertised on the register in order to have the right to vote. They have a legal obligation to register to vote but do not have to have their address advertised. I emphasise that NISRA deals with census material under conditions of secrecy and confidentiality. Its staff are trained to a very high standard in this and are under considerable regulation in the way in which they handle that data, for the reasons that noble Lords outlined in their concern about confidentiality. The concern about sharing data is not new. It has existed for some time and therefore is not associated with these regulations.

Finally, I shall correct a slip that I made when talking about the Electoral Commission designing the form. It may design the form but will not necessarily do so. The legislation before the other place would permit it to do so.

I commend the regulations to the Committee.

Control of Donations and Regulation of Loans etc. (Extension of the Prescribed Period) (Northern Ireland) Order 2013

Lord McAvoy Excerpts

Tuesday 29th January 2013 Grand Committee

[Lord McAvoy]

My Lords, I, too, thank the Minister for her clear and full explanation of the order. I think that it was appreciated by everyone. The forthright contribution made by the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, and the fascinating speech made by the noble Lord, Lord Lyell, which took us down memory lane, did no harm to our discussions. I think that everyone in this Room understands why the legislation was passed in the first place, and while there is a desire for uniformity throughout the United Kingdom, the kingdom is also flexible and realistic enough to know when it has to bend, when it has to manoeuvre, and when it has to bring forward different legislation for different parts of the country. Unfortunately and tragically, this legislation was necessary, and indeed most folk would deem that it is still necessary. The Minister has mentioned the recent events which serve to underline the fact that when it comes to measures like these in Northern Ireland, the word to use must be “caution”. We have to be very careful that we do not introduce any unintended consequences.

Let me state right away that the Official Opposition support the Government in their position on this order. We hope, of course, that we can move as quickly as possible to a situation of full transparency regarding these donations, but nevertheless it is clear that that will have to be a gradual process. As has been mentioned, the Electoral Commission is much respected and the Opposition is practically foursquare with its views on the order. We want to see it amended as soon as possible so that voters can see how parties are funded, but as I mentioned earlier, caution must come first. I also welcome the announcement about the timing of the draft Bill to see how quickly it is envisaged that we can move forward.

When it comes to the draft Bill, I want to put one inquiry to the Minister today. Will that Bill raise the issue of double-jobbing? I am not quite sure about all the intricacies, but I have been told to put the question and to get a response. As I say, we support the order and the retrospective principle contained in it. It is only right that there should be retrospection, apart from any information that would enable donors and lenders to be identified. It has to be a mixture of innovation and caution. In Northern Ireland matters, that is always the right thing to do.

Public opinion research shows consistent support for the introduction of transparency into the funding of political parties in Northern Ireland. The Electoral Commission has informed me that the most recent survey, carried out in December 2012, found that 62% of the respondents felt that information about who donates to political parties should be made available to the public. Some 7% said that it should remain confidential while 31% did not mind either way. That sounds like a familiar figure. We need to deal with this situation so that the Electoral Commission is not legally bound to publish something. We would like to see a fully transparent scheme, but surely we all understand why we are moving slowly on it.

In conclusion, as I have said, the Official Opposition support what the Government are doing here. Our Front Bench Members have discussed these matters with the Government and we are prepared to support an extension of the prescribed period, it is hoped for a final time, having received the assurances announced by the Minister that very soon there will be moves to bring Northern Ireland into line with the rest of the UK in terms of transparency around political donations. There needs to be a change, but we acknowledge that there is no agreement between the political parties in Northern Ireland about thresholds and the amount of information to be made available on individuals, security matters and other issues. However, they are not drawbacks or obstacles but opportunities to further advance the situation in Northern Ireland so that it comes more into line with the rest of the United Kingdom. We support the order.

[Baroness Randerson]

I thank all noble Lords who have contributed to this debate and welcome the fact that the order has received so much support. I shall endeavour to answer as many points as I can.

The noble Lord, Lord Lexden, accepted that there should be a move to full transparency in time, and I believe that that feeling is shared around this Room. Both the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, and the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, pointed to the 2010 consultation, in which two-thirds of respondents supported disclosure and transparency. I liked the comment that we should proceed with patience and understanding.

I believe that it was the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, who made the important point that political parties can publish, if they wish, these details. It is my understanding that the Alliance Party has commenced that process. Once some political parties start to publish, I believe that others will follow—the Alliance has started; others will follow—and I hope that that will hasten the eventual move to full transparency.

Several noble Lords referred to retrospective disclosure. To avoid confusion in relation to whether disclosure will apply to past donations or future donations made during the extended prescribed period—that is, until September 2014—we intend to provide that the identities of those who have made donations or loans in the past without knowing that their details might be released are not published when the prescribed period ends. People donating now, during the current prescribed period, will not find their names and details published. Retrospective disclosure is therefore addressed and dealt with and will not apply.

The Government are, however, committed to the disclosure of other information which would not identify donors. That information might include whether the donation came from a corporation or an individual, the nationality of that individual and the amount of the donation, but none of those would identify the name or address of the individual.

It is important to emphasise that the Electoral Commission does very rigorous checks in Northern Ireland on donations and loans. Although the general regulations on disclosure to the Electoral Commission are the same as those in the rest of Britain—beyond the publication, of course—the checks that the Electoral Commission does in Northern Ireland are more rigorous than in the rest of Britain. In other words, it goes to greater lengths to satisfy itself on the genuineness of the information that it is given.

The noble Lord, Lord Lyell, asked about the significance of 30 September 2014. Its significance is that it is the earliest possible date. The Electoral Commission requires that the system moves to greater transparency as soon as possible. That needs primary legislation. The estimate is of how quickly primary legislation can go through this House and the other place and, following that, how quickly the regulations can be implemented. Responses to the Electoral Commission are made quarterly and that is the end of the quarter when this can reasonably be expected to happen. As I said, and as noble Lords will have noted, a draft Bill will be published next week.

The noble Lord, Lord Lyell, also asked about the definition of “regulated recipients”. It is defined in Schedule 7 to the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000. It applies throughout the country, including Northern Ireland. It covers members of political parties, members of associations and holders of elected office, so I think that it probably would apply to the noble Lord in his previous life and career.

I am pleased that the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, has pledged his support. It is important that we have the widest possible support, particularly cross-community support in Northern Ireland. I am pleased that he accepts that the process will be gradual. He asked a specific question about whether double-jobbing would be addressed in the draft Bill. The issue was covered in public consultation last year and, although I cannot at this stage reveal the contents of the draft Bill, it is clearly on the agenda of the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland.

I am pleased that the order has received such a warm welcome, which I hope will ensure its speedy acceptance in the Chamber next week.

Northern Ireland

Lord McAvoy Excerpts

Thursday 10th January 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord McAvoy]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement made by the Secretary of State in the other place. With the leave of the House, I will now repeat the response to the Statement made by my honourable friend Vernon Coaker.

“Mr Speaker, I begin by thanking the Secretary of State for her statement and for advance sight of it. I join with her in condemning the disgraceful violence we have seen over the last number of weeks. The serious rioting, the attacks on the police and the threats against elected representatives have been appalling, including that against the honourable Member for Belfast East, who has behaved throughout with real dignity and courage. This violence would not be acceptable in London; it would not be acceptable in Cardiff; it would not be acceptable in Edinburgh; and it is not acceptable in Belfast. People in Northern Ireland need to know that the UK Government are giving this the highest priority and that Northern Ireland matters. So can I ask the Secretary of State what discussions she has had with the Prime Minister about the recent violence and what discussions he has had, or intends to have, with Northern Ireland Ministers about what might be done to support them?

The dissident republican terrorist attempt to murder a police officer and his family over Christmas was sickening. It reminds us, as the Secretary of State has said, of the ongoing threat from those who wish to destroy the peace and progress. It is good that the police have made arrests in relation to David Black’s murder, and it sends out a clear message that the perpetrators of those crimes will be brought to justice.

The public disorder and violence we have seen on the streets began, as we know, when the decision was taken by Belfast City Council that the union flag should be flown only on designated days. In a democracy, you cannot try and change decisions by the use of force. Will the Secretary of State join with me in saying that those who break the law can expect to be dealt with by the full force of the law? Violence cannot be allowed to win.

Once again, the Police Service of Northern Ireland has shown exceptional bravery and courage even at great personal cost, with more than 60 officers already injured. Let us once again commend them for their professionalism and dedication to duty. The chief constable has clearly stated that senior figures from the Ulster Volunteer Force are involved in much of the violence. What assessment has she made of loyalist paramilitary involvement? Does she agree that attacks by paramilitaries on the police and elected politicians are matters of national security, and is she confident that the Police Service of Northern Ireland has the resources to continue this level of commitment without impacting on its other policing duties?

Today, I was due to be visiting a project in Belfast to help young people back to work. I have seen in communities across Northern Ireland, both nationalist and unionist, initiatives to try and ensure that every young person has hope, every community looks to the future, jobs are created and everything possible is done to overcome sectarianism and the divisions of the past. Much of this is devolved but will the Secretary of State ensure that the consequences of any of her Government’s economic and social policies are fully considered with respect to Northern Ireland? Deprivation, disengagement and alienation in any community are a challenge, but one that if not met in Northern Ireland can have particular and dangerous consequences.

I want to close today by saying clearly that although this violence is serious, worrying and wrong, and that it must stop, we will not and cannot let it undo all of the good work being done in Northern Ireland. We have continuing work to do to reassure people outside of Northern Ireland that it is a fantastic place, open for business and tourism. We must do all we can to highlight all that is good—and there is so much that is good.

Does the Secretary of State agree that the scenes we have witnessed in recent weeks on our TV screens do not represent the real face of Northern Ireland? We need to work together to find answers to the difficult questions about how to overcome sectarianism, deal with contentious issues and confront the past. That will not happen through violence but only by dialogue based on mutual respect—a respect of both Britishness and Irishness. There are many people engaged in ongoing work on these issues that is being done quietly and effectively. We must extend and develop that. The majority of people I speak to, especially the young, offer real hope for the future. Let us encourage them and not allow the actions of a few to damn them all.

There has been real progress in the last number of years in Northern Ireland. It is not easy and sometimes there will be setbacks, but these setbacks cannot and must not be allowed to define Northern Ireland and its people, or derail the progress that has been made”.

I commend this response to the Statement by Vernon Coaker to the House.

Northern Ireland: Recent Events

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Tuesday 11th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord McAvoy]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the Secretary of State’s Statement in the House of Commons and I also thank my honourable friend Vernon Coaker for initiating this Statement. I shall now repeat the response made by Vernon Coaker in the other place.

“Mr Speaker, can I thank the Secretary of State for coming to the House to make this Statement and for advance sight of it? Let me say why I and the Opposition called on her to do so. There have been eight consecutive nights of violence in Northern Ireland. A Member of this House has had her life threatened and her Alliance Party has seen its representatives intimidated and subjected to violence, and its property attacked.

Violence against the police has escalated, to the extent that an attempt was made to murder a female officer last night by breaking the window of a police car and throwing a petrol bomb inside while she was still in the vehicle. Dozens of officers have been injured after coming under sustained attack over the course of the week. Another murderous attack on the police was only narrowly avoided when a vehicle carrying a rocket was apprehended outside Derry. It cannot go on and Westminster’s voice must be heard. This violence would not be tolerated in London, Cardiff or Edinburgh, and it should not be tolerated in Belfast. A clear and strong message must be sent from this place today that says that this violence is wrong, unacceptable and without justification.

Once again I pay tribute to the Police Service of Northern Ireland for its dedication and bravery. I spoke earlier to the Justice Minister, whom I also met a few days ago in Belfast. What discussions has the Secretary of State had with him and the chief constable about resources and the police’s capacity to deal with this disorder and the continuing national security threat? What is the latest security assessment?

The homes of public representatives have been vandalised and attacked. Local councillors, who are doing their best on behalf of the communities that they serve, and their families have seen their homes targeted and vandalised. I am sure that I speak for the whole House when I say that whether we are talking about a DUP councillor in Dungannon, two Alliance councillors and their families in Bangor, or the husband of a Sinn Fein councillor in Armagh, such violence is wrong and must stop. I stand shoulder to shoulder with public representatives in Northern Ireland for democracy and against violence. When a Member of Parliament is threatened and attacked, I view it as a threat and an attack on all of us and everything we stand for.

Will the Secretary of State tell me what assessment she has made of the involvement of loyalist paramilitaries in the rioting? Does she view their actions as a threat to national security? What discussions has she had with the Prime Minister about this? Has he discussed the ongoing violence with the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister or the Justice Minister?

I know that there are underlying issues, and I am realistic about the challenges we face. I have been with unionist and loyalist political representatives to visit areas in Belfast and other parts of Northern Ireland, and I want to say this: honourable Members and others from Northern Ireland are doing a really difficult job in these communities, and I do not doubt their sincerity, integrity or hard work. They are dealing with frustration and anger, and they need support in helping to channel that away from violence and towards politics. I will do what I can to help, and I make that offer in republican and nationalist communities, too, but violence is never justified and it is wrong. It is damaging those communities and, until the violence stops, we cannot even begin to discuss or do anything about the longer-term issues that need to be resolved. What discussions has the Secretary of State had with political representatives about supporting work in these communities? Will she bring political leaders together to see what can be done together?

I care deeply about Northern Ireland and its people, and I know the Secretary of State and all other honourable Members do too. I think it was important today that we came together as the United Kingdom House of Commons and said that. Northern Ireland matters; it is important. I hope that we see this awful violence ended and that we can look forward to a 2013 in which Northern Ireland is showcased on the world stage as the great place it is”.

District Electoral Areas Commissioner (Northern Ireland) Order 2012

Lord McAvoy Excerpts

Tuesday 20th November 2012 Grand Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Wales Office (Baroness Randerson)]

My Lords, I beg to move that the draft District Electoral Areas Commissioner (Northern Ireland) Order 2012, which was laid before the House on 15 October 2012, be approved. This is a relatively simple but important order that makes provision for the appointment of a district electoral areas commissioner in Northern Ireland. By way of background, local government itself, including local government boundaries, is a devolved matter for the Northern Ireland Executive, but elections to local government are an excepted matter for the UK Government. In 2008 a local government boundaries commissioner was appointed by the Northern Ireland Department of the Environment to make recommendations regarding the boundaries, names and wards of the new 11 local government districts, reducing the number from the current 26. Once established, the wards in those districts need grouping into electoral areas so that elections can take place using the STV form of proportional representation. The Secretary of State appoints a district electoral areas commissioner, who is independent of government, to carry out this important task.

In 2009, the then Secretary of State appointed Dick Mackenzie as the DEAC for a period of one year. This was done in the expectation that the Northern Ireland Executive would move forward with local government reorganisation in time to hold the 2011 local elections on the new 11-council model. Mr Mackenzie did a considerable amount of work on the district electoral areas during his period of appointment but unfortunately was not able to complete his task. This was because the Executive at that time were not able to move forward with the local government reorganisation before his term of office expired. It was of course not possible to set electoral areas before ward boundaries had been agreed. Local elections in 2011 were therefore held on the basis of the 26-council model.

I am delighted that the Northern Ireland Executive and the Northern Ireland Assembly have now agreed to move forward with local government reorganisation and that an order setting out the boundaries and wards for the 11 new councils has been agreed by the Northern Ireland Assembly. The order is expected to be made by the Northern Ireland Department of the Environment before the end of November.

As for the order itself, we now need to move forward with the next part of the process. Since the district electoral areas commissioner appointment has come to an end, there is no legal basis on which to reappoint someone to the same task, so a new order is needed. The order before us, in summary, makes provision for the appointment of a district electoral areas commissioner following the 2008 local government boundary review and amends the District Electoral Areas Commissioner (Northern Ireland) Order 1984.

Article 2 provides for the appointment of a replacement commissioner when the district electoral areas commissioner’s appointment has come to an end before he has completed his task. This provision will be used for the current process. Article 2 also makes amendments to the timing of future appointments, providing greater flexibility for the Secretary of State on when to make the appointments. It allows the Secretary of State to appoint a district electoral areas commissioner at any time after a local government boundaries commissioner’s appointment. However, he or she will not be required to do so until an order has been made by the Northern Ireland Executive establishing the new local government boundaries.

Article 3 makes specific provision for the timing of the appointment following the current review. It provides that the Secretary of State must appoint a replacement district electoral areas commissioner “as soon as practicable” after this order comes into force. It also provides that the commissioner must submit his report as soon as practicable after his appointment if the local government boundaries order is made before this order comes into force, which may well be the case.

In conclusion, I hope that noble Lords will endorse this statutory instrument, which ensures that the process of local government reorganisation in Northern Ireland, as agreed by the Assembly, can continue. I commend the District Electoral Areas Commissioner (Northern Ireland) Order 2012 to the Committee.

[Lord McAvoy]

My Lords, first, I welcome the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, to the post dealing with Northern Ireland. As I am sure she will pick up very quickly, boundaries are of great interest to all political parties in Northern Ireland, perhaps even more so than in the rest of the United Kingdom. I am not quite sure whether she is a veteran of the debates on the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill but that was certainly a very interesting time and I thoroughly enjoyed my part in it.

Can the Minister tell us whether there have been any objections to the delay in making this appointment and putting this order through, and whether there were any objections to any part of the process? We take the view—and my honourable friend Vernon Coaker has always made it quite plain—that these matters that are devolved to Northern Ireland must be dealt with in Northern Ireland. Especially when it comes to boundaries, we will work closely with all the parties in Northern Ireland to make sure that they are accepted.

However, there are one or two questions. This post is likely to be controversial and I wonder what the Government’s response is to any controversy that has arisen over this post, which is quite a significant one. Perhaps the Minister can answer those questions when she responds. I reserve the right to perhaps come in again if any comments require a response from me.

[Lord Kilclooney]

My Lords, I welcome the order and will certainly not be speaking at any considerable length on the subject. However, I am greatly encouraged that the Minister thinks that local government reform in Northern Ireland is “relatively simple”, which I think was her opening phrase. As a Minister in 1972 introducing the reform of local government in Northern Ireland, I did not find it relatively simple—it was very controversial indeed. It is nice to know that after 40 years what I did at that time has existed with some success. It is even nicer to find that it is considered to be a relatively simple affair in Northern Ireland today, although I think that the noble Lord who has just spoken was hinting that it can also be controversial in Northern Ireland.

It is a difficult subject for the Committee. As the Minister said, some of the items are really for the devolved institutions and some are for our national Parliament here in Westminster. I am wondering what speed we are going to work at. We were to have a local government election in 2011, but that has been extended because the boundaries were not agreed. Have we got a target date now for the next local elections or has it simply been extended without a target date? There needs to be clarification, not just for the Committee but for the public generally in Northern Ireland, as to where we are going and at what speed. I notice in the order, for example, that the district electoral area commissioner will be appointed “as soon as practicable”. What does that really mean? How soon will it be? It is time that we moved ahead with local government reform in Northern Ireland.

I personally welcome the idea of the 26 councils in Northern Ireland, which I introduced in 1972, being reduced to 11. That itself is a controversial subject in Northern Ireland, even within some of the political parties, never mind among them. You can never please everyone. For example, in my former constituency of Strangford, the borough of Castlereagh is now being linked in many respects with the borough of Lisburn. I find that very difficult to understand but accept the recommendation that there should be 11 councils in Northern Ireland.

Within each council area—here we are talking about boundaries and the number of councillors—I assume that there will be a councillor for each ward. We are discussing the joining together of various wards in an electoral area. If three wards are joined together, I assume that there will be three councillors. If four wards are joined together, I assume that there will be four councillors. I hope that that will be clarified. Will there be a minimum number of wards that can be joined together, and a maximum number? For example, if a new council boundary encloses 11 wards, is it possible that all 11 wards will be in one district electoral area? I would not have thought so; there must be a minimum and maximum, and I would like to know what they are.

Otherwise, I have no objections to the order. It is the way forward for Northern Ireland. Some of the councils in Northern Ireland are ridiculously small in population, yet have the same powers as some of the very large district councils. It is good to see this reorganisation, I wish it godspeed and I look forward to the Minister’s reply.

[Lord Empey]

My Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord Kilclooney, said, the statutory instrument before us is fairly straightforward. However, it would not be possible for me not to comment on its timing because of the delay that has taken place. This phase of local government reform began in 2001, when the first Executive decided to reform local government. I welcome the Minister to her new duties. She is a former devolved Minister in Wales. I am a lifelong supporter of devolution, but I have to say that the performance of devolution in the area of local government has not been its finest hour.

We started this in 2001. Of course, the Executive ceased in 2002 when direct rule came back in. I think that it was Secretary of State Hain who, in a blaze of glory, announced his proposals for the reform of local government, with a proposal for seven councils. Then devolution came back in and the then Executive did not agree with that. We proceeded to a new process and Mr Mackenzie was appointed in 2008. He made his final report on 22 June 2009, which is getting on for three and a half years ago. The last we heard, local government elections were to be held for shadow councils in 2014, but these would not take power until 2015.

By any stretch of the imagination, that is not a good timetable. The effect has been to leave local councils in some cases without chief executives, and not knowing whether they are coming or going. The powers that they were to get, which started off substantial but are very small in the current process, have gradually eroded. There has been a lot of confusion, and councils have had acting chief executives and various other things, so it has not been a happy time.

On the timing of the order, I, too, would be interested to know when the commissioner will be appointed. A significant process will have to take place. When the wards are grouped together to form district electoral areas, I understand that current legislation will permit either five or seven to be allowed for. The noble Lord, Lord Kilclooney, who occupied a place in local government, will know that most local government districts had five, six or seven councillors.

I do not know whether that will be amended, but when the draft boundaries come out, they will have to be subject to public consultation. The commissioner has to take evidence and seek public comment, so even if the person were to be appointed this side of Christmas, it is inconceivable that the report would be ready by the summer of next year. If the local elections were to be held in 2014 to coincide with the European elections, that leaves the political parties very little time to select their candidates and get things sorted out. I would be very interested to hear the answer to that question.

While it is not strictly relevant to this order, the Minister referred to local government, of which I have had some experience. The fact is that a lot of good work has been done there. It kept democracy alive in the dark days when there was no alternative to local government. Councillors have actually made the supreme sacrifice for their participation in local government. They have been attacked and assassinated, and sadly that still continues. Councillors take a risk, so we would all wish to commend them on their efforts in trying to maintain the democratic process.

I am very disappointed so far as the 11-area model is concerned and some of the proposals are barking mad. Indeed, it is the only proposal for local government that I can recall where the participants, the people and indeed the commissioner were legally prohibited from taking into account local identity, which is the whole purpose of local government. To say that the commissioner was prohibited from drawing up the boundaries and taking into consideration local identity seems most bizarre.

So far as the proposal for the city of Belfast is concerned, in my opinion it is nothing short of a gerrymander, and I deeply regret that. Nevertheless, the proposal is here and I think it has to be proceeded with. But perhaps I may make a comment to the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, in response to what he said about boundaries being problematical in Northern Ireland. Of course they can be problematical, but when I came into your Lordships’ House not very long ago, we were debating the constituencies Bill. If he thinks that boundaries do not matter in here, I can assure him that when boundaries were being discussed then, what I saw looked like hungry dogs fighting over a bone. The matter was being discussed with passion at that stage. I think the noble Lord will find that when boundaries and people’s constituencies were being discussed in your Lordships’ House, it was evident to me that it mattered.

[Lord McAvoy]

I agree with my noble friend for the purposes of this debate. “Mad dog” is perhaps the best description of me when it comes to the towns of Rutherglen and Cambuslang being incorporated into a Glasgow constituency. He has mentioned the boundaries—

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Colwyn)]

I think that the noble Lord should not make another speech at this stage. Perhaps we could hear from other speakers and then from the Minister. He can interrupt on points of clarification then. It is not correct to speak twice in these debates.

Public Services Reform (Scotland) Act 2010 (Consequential Modifications of Enactments) Order 2011

Lord McAvoy Excerpts

Monday 17th October 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord Maclennan of Rogart]

My Lords, this order appears to be uncontroversial and is before this Committee only because it is required to have an affirmative resolution. The only question I wish to ask is whether in the case of orders of this kind, which are not designed to amend the legislation, save—as my noble friend, the Minister, has said—to reflect, in a technical sense, the consequences of legislation by the Scottish Parliament, it might make sense, for reasons of expedition, to amend the Scotland Act to enable the measures to be incorporated in negative resolutions rather than affirmative resolutions. The Minister clearly explained that there is no issue of policy at stake here other than the maintenance of the status quo. As the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments has not raised any matter about drafting or anything else, there is every reason to believe that this is an acceptable instrument. We now frequently see consequential legislation brought forward for extensive debates and this does not seem to be strictly necessary, bearing in mind the pressures on the United Kingdom Parliament.

[Lord McAvoy]

My Lords, I thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, for his clear exposition of what is in the order. This will save some time. I will start by disagreeing totally with the noble Lord, Lord Maclennan of Rogart, about helping Governments to be expeditious in getting legislation through. There is always somebody paranoid, suspicious and hostile to government—probably me—and I like to see things coming in front of me. I also thank the office staff of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, for offering assistance and guidance, as usual. This is extremely helpful for those such as me who are still adjusting to this place. The noble Lord, Lord Maclennan of Rogart, also says that the measure is uncontroversial. I take the view that very little is uncontroversial in Scottish politics at the moment that cannot be made controversial by the behaviour of the First Minister, Alex Salmond.

On the extension of the Scottish Executive over those bodies included in the order, I wonder whether they will be exhorted by the leader of the Civil Service in Scotland to go to watch “Braveheart” so that the Scottish public can see how Scotland lived under English occupation 700 or 800 years ago. That is the sort of nonsense we are getting in Scotland at the moment, so I do not accept that there is anything uncontroversial in Scotland. Everything will be seized on as we lead up at some point to a Scottish independence referendum.

[Lord Maclennan of Rogart]

For the avoidance of doubt, I would not say that there was nothing uncontroversial in the Scottish legislation of 2010. What I see as uncontroversial is the response of the United Kingdom Government, which is that this is a devolved matter and not a matter over which we have control. Nothing that has been done has, as I see it, required the United Kingdom Government to do more than preserve those things that have not been affected by the Scottish legislation.

[Lord McAvoy]

My response to that would be: not yet, because you never know what will happen. I am not called Thomas for nothing. What raises my suspicion is reading the words Representation of the People Act—although I know that this order is about care homes and such things.

The serious question I have for the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, in agreeing to these bodies understandably and logically coming under the remit of the Scottish Executive, is: are any of them in any way involved with elections or referendums? I know that this might seem wild, but you never know. In the order is a whole host of regulations, so I want to clarify just to make sure. Are any of them involved in the staffing of stations, administration or anything to do with the practical running of referendums? I should like to know to be sure that that is not the case.

In addition, the memorandum states:

“Part 1 makes provision for the purpose of simplifying public bodies”,

but ends up by stating,

“and provision in relation to the regulation of officers of court”.

Again, would any of those officers of the court be involved in ruling on disputes about referendums or voting in any way?

I have no intention of repeating the explanation of the order by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, which was absolutely fine. I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Maclennan of Rogart, for getting involved. Those are my only serious questions. I know that folk may dismiss them as scaremongering or fantasising, but in Scotland at the moment we need to keep a very firm check on everything that comes through.

[The Duke of Montrose]

My Lords, can my noble friend clarify a couple of points? I listened to him but did not catch the fact that a couple of Welsh measures have wandered into the Bill. It is very interesting to see them in there. Can he reassure us that the Welsh paragraphs are an exact translation of the previous ones, because my Welsh is not up to understanding them? How many times has this Parliament passed measures in Welsh?

Criminal Justice and Licensing (Scotland) Act 2010 (Consequential Provisions and Modifications) Order 2011

Lord McAvoy Excerpts

Wednesday 7th September 2011 Grand Committee

[The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace of Tankerness)]

My Lords, I beg to move that the draft order laid before the House on 22 June 2011 be considered. Perhaps I may provide the Committee with a brief explanation of what the order is intended to achieve. It is made under Section 104 of the Scotland Act 1998, which allows for necessary or expedient changes to UK legislation in consequence of an Act of the Scottish Parliament.

In this case, the order is laid in consequence of the Criminal Justice and Licensing (Scotland) Act 2010, which I shall refer to as the 2010 Act. The Merits Committee of your Lordships' House has reviewed the order and has not noted it as of special interest. The 2010 Act makes a number of changes to the law, and the order relates to some of the changes made to sentencing, criminal procedure, criminal law and criminal justice. The 2010 Act introduced a new community sentence in Scotland, known as the community payback order. This order will enable the transfer of community payback orders imposed by a court in Scotland to England and Wales or Northern Ireland where an offender resides or intends to reside there. For an offender who subsequently proposes to move or has moved to England and Wales where an order is already in place, this order provides for the transfer of community payback orders and allows the court to impose a community payback order on an offender who resides or will reside in England and Wales. In both scenarios, the court must not impose the order unless the offender is aged 16 or older. In addition, the court must be satisfied that arrangements had been made or can be made for the offender to comply with the requirements imposed by the order in accordance with arrangements that exist in the relevant area for offenders. The court must also be satisfied that either a responsible officer will be appointed or that the offender will be supervised by a relevant probation service.

The analogous order to a Scottish community payback order in England and Wales is a community order—or, for offenders aged between 16 and 18, the youth rehabilitation order. When transferred, the community payback order has effect in England and Wales as if it were a community order made by a court there.

The order we are considering today contains almost identical provision for cross-border transfer of the community payback order in relation to offenders who reside or will reside in Northern Ireland, with a number of necessary modifications. In Northern Ireland, the corresponding order to the Scottish community payback order will be a probation or community service order under the Criminal Justice (Northern Ireland) Order 1996.

The 2010 Act also sets out what use can be made of various sources of forensic data about individuals who are arrested or detained under suspicion of having committed an offence. The order will allow forensic data, as well as data taken from terrorist suspects, to be used for the reserved purpose of national security and for the purposes of a terrorist investigation. The provisions clarify that forensic data taken for reserved purposes can also be used for specific devolved purposes. The provisions are a valuable tool for the prevention and detection of crime in Scotland.

The 2010 Act also ensures that a person will be made subject to the sex offender notification requirements when they are convicted of the offence of possession of extreme pornography. The order extends that as a matter of law in England and Wales and Northern Ireland. That ensures that a person made subject to the notification requirements as a result of a conviction for possession of extreme pornography in Scotland cannot evade the requirement to register by moving elsewhere in the United Kingdom.

Finally, the 2010 Act makes a number of improvements to the operation of the foreign travel orders. The order extends the Scottish offence of breaching the requirement to surrender passports under the foreign travel order to England and Wales and Northern Ireland. We believe that it is a sensible measure given the increased mobility of offenders, who try to avoid their obligations by leaving one jurisdiction for another, and it also addresses a growing international concern about sex tourism.

The order demonstrates the Government’s commitment to working with the Scottish Government to make the devolution settlement work. I hope that the Committee will agree that the order is a sensible use of the powers in the Scotland Act and that the practical results are to be welcomed. I therefore commend the order to the Committee.

[Lord McAvoy]

My Lords, this is the second time that I have responded to a statutory instrument on behalf of the Opposition. For the second time, I place on record my appreciation for the co-operation and understanding of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, in offering me assistance in dealing with this. The behaviour of the noble and learned Lord is always an example to me of how I should aspire to be in this House, but that may take some time.

I place on record my appreciation for the contact from the Minister's office offering that help. I can assure the young lady who contacted me that although I may not have needed assistance this time, I am sure that at some point I shall be knocking on her door instead of her coming to me first.

The order is sensible. Following last night’s deliberation on the Scotland Bill, it shows the sensible co-operation that can and does take place since devolution has been brought to Scotland. I am quite impressed by how the two systems can work together to ensure that there is no avoidance of the community payback scheme. That is first class.

The Minister has explained the order well. However, in the other place, the honourable Member who has the honour to represent the Royal Borough of Rutherglen, Mr Tom Greatrex, asked some questions for clarification about the guidance, the collection and use of the forensic data that will be transferred between the north and the south and how the arrangements would work. The Minister undertook to write to the Members of that Committee. Can we have an update on that? Can the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, clarify that for the Committee?

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

First, I thank the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, for his generous remarks. Indeed, it helps the Committee’s consideration of these orders to work if there is an exchange of information.

The noble Lord asked about guidance, picking up the points made by his illustrious successor representing the Royal Borough of Rutherglen, Mr Greatrex. The position is that the Scottish Government have published guidance on all the forensic data provisions of the 2010 Act, including Section 82, which is the section that gives rise to this part of the order.

The Home Office and the Government are in the early stages of working with the relevant law enforcement authorities to develop specific guidance in the forensic data matters arising from the Protection of Freedoms Bill and indeed the wider use of forensic data. My right honourable friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State in the Scotland Office, Mr Mundell, has written to Mr Greatrex confirming that,

“the Home Office and the Scottish Government are working with the relevant law enforcement authorities (including the Serious Organised Crime Agency and HM Revenue and Customs) with the intention of developing specific guidance on forensic data matters arising from both the Protection of Freedoms Bill”—

which is currently before the other place—

“and the wider use of forensic data. Part 1 of the Schedule to the Criminal Justice and Licensing Section 104 Order amends the”,

Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1995 in Scotland,

“to avoid operational confusion and ensure that there is a clear legal basis for the retention and use of forensic data in Scotland for both reserved and devolved purposes”.

The Protection of Freedoms Bill will also impact on this area because of the,

“provisions in Scotland under the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1995”,

as amended by the Act that triggers this order.

The other point that Mr Greatrex raised related to the foreign travel orders. My right honourable friend’s letter says:

“the latest version of guidance produced by the Association of Chief Police Officers in Scotland … relative to the management of registered sex offenders is subject to continual monitoring and review in light of developments in the law and in policy and practice”.

My right honourable friend is advised that,

“This guidance is currently being amended to take account of the amendments made to the … regime”,

as a result of the primary legislation this order. I understand that the guidance will be made available to the police in good time. I hope that that gives an explanation to the points raised by the noble Lord, and I commend the order to the Committee.

Scotland Bill

Lord McAvoy Excerpts

Tuesday 6th September 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord McAvoy]

My Lords, I will be particularly brief. I am not as erudite as many of those who have spoken so far, but I have some knowledge of and involvement in the historical and political events that have been outlined. I find it irresistible to take part not to settle a few scores but perhaps remember a few things.

There has been a lot of mention, particularly by the noble Earl, Lord Mar and Kellie, of the 1706 negotiators and of the reasons for the negotiations for the Act of Union. The one that he has not mentioned is that many people feel—though not all historians agree, and here we start to wander down highways and byways—that the real reason was the existence of someone called James Francis Edward Stuart, the Jacobite King James VIII and III. That was why the English Parliament wanted control of Scotland— the Scottish Parliament had the right to pick a separate monarch. The fear among the English and a lot of the Scots was that the Jacobite King James would be brought back from St-Germain-en-Laye. So there is a wee bit of history there as well that I do not agree with.

Going on to more serious matters, I want to comment briefly on why we are here at this time of night, on the stage that we are at and on the speakers list. I would like to echo what the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth of Drumleen, said about the positioning of the noble Baroness, Lady Liddell of Coatdyke, in the batting order—an absolute disgrace upon the former Secretary of State for Scotland to be put in that position. I do not know who makes up that list, but that was a bad, bad, bad mistake and I hope that there is some acknowledgement of that. I really think that it was pretty poor. Naturally, as a Labour and Co-op Peer and a member of the Front Bench I support the Bill.

Listening to a lot of the comments about the make-up of the Bill, it is coming across to me that yet again it is a rushed one. We have a rushed process. We started this Second Reading debate at 5.45 pm and are going to finish around 1 am. I do not think that is right. I also think it is bad politics for the Government because in Scotland it will, wrongly, be seen as Scotland being shoved to the back and put into the early hours of the morning because who cares about Scotland? It was not because of this side of the usual channels. It was the Government. Let us be clear: it is the Government who put business on, not us. It is typical of the situation we are in at the moment where they are mishandling every Bill. What is coming across quite clearly to me is a level of incompetence. I do not know whether they are getting tired, whether they have been around too long or whether they are just trying to do too much, but the Government’s timetable is in a mess, and they are trying to compensate for that by rushing things through here, and it is showing up. I think this Bill will be scrutinised very thoroughly now that we have seen what I think is a level of incompetence in bringing the Bill forward. I think that is pretty poor.

The noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, mentioned the Scottish convention that started the process of getting a united front for a Scottish Assembly and a Scottish Parliament. I am not point-scoring or settling any scores or anything like that but, once again, it brings to mind how when the Liberals get to the top table, they always seem to look after themselves very well. Out of those arrangements the Liberals got two seats for Orkney and Shetland, for instance, and, quite frankly, the Labour Administration at the time could not wait to get into bed with them, metaphorically, and form a coalition, so they always do well. Conservative colleagues in this House would do well to observe the Liberals very carefully and make sure that their back pockets are not picked before they go.

What we are getting is something rushed and incompetent. At the risk of ruining his reputation, the contribution by the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth of Drumlean, was a tour de force by exposing and putting to question the tax issues and all the other matters. They might not be right, but they certainly sounded very credible to me. They are going to be meaty issues for the Committee process. I promise not to call him Comrade Forsyth—that might perhaps be going too far—but he was certainly the best speaker tonight as far as I am concerned.

It is about time somebody paid tribute to the nation of England. It is a bigger nation by far and financially supports Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales. It is about time there was more recognition of that. I do not recognise this mass force in Scotland that wants separation. I just do not see it, but real separation will come if this Government allow the SNP to foster division, resentment and bitterness against England, English people will get fed up with it and will say, “If you want to go, off you go then”. That is a bigger danger than perhaps folk think. We have this infamous phrase that devolution is the settled will of the Scottish people. As soon as we got devolution, the people who wanted to go further kept coming back looking for more. They describe it as a process. With due respect to them, I do not think that they are being dishonest, but it is dishonest to say that it is an ongoing process because what they are really saying is, “We are going somewhere, we don’t know where it is, we can’t tell you anything about it, but we are going on anyway”. That is wrong. There should be clear statements about where we are in Scotland and in any devolved area, and it should be done by consensus.

I hesitate to have a go—to cross swords rather, as I had better use the proper language—at the noble Lord, Lord Steel of Aikwood, especially when he is not in his place, but he made a very profound statement that I 100 per cent agree with, which is that no constitutional change should take place unless there is consensus. That was not the case with the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill which went through this place and altered the constitution. Lasting damage will be done by that. The referendum must obviously be discussed very thoroughly in Committee. We cannot have Scotland and Scottish business subjected to years of uncertainty. Whatever the ultimate decision, I look forward to the Committee stage where we can try harder to get some answers out of the Government.