Illegal Migration Bill

Debate between Lord Marlesford and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Thursday 29th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for his kind words, which I reciprocate. I hear him, and my noble friend the Minister, Lord Murray of Blidworth, certainly heard the House last night. In the hours since the debate, he has been back to the Home Office to seek what the House requested. I can confirm that the child rights impact assessment will be forthcoming early next week and well before Report concludes, as the noble Lord requested.

[Lord Marlesford (Con)]

My Lords, where does this morning’s decision of the Appeal Court that people cannot lawfully be transferred to Rwanda leave this legislation?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I know that my noble friend the Minister will discuss that later. It is not quite a matter for debate now.

Manufacturing Post Brexit

Debate between Lord Marlesford and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Thursday 26th January 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab)]

My Lords—

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, quick questions and quick answers will mean that both noble Lords will be able to get in.

[Lord Marlesford (Con)]

My Lords, Britain has over the decades sadly lost its pre-eminent position in nuclear power. Has my noble friend noticed that Rolls-Royce has today announced a new nuclear academy of excellence in Derby? Will he recognise that this is a real opportunity to move forward with the experience Rolls-Royce has in small modular reactors?

Nationality and Borders Bill

Debate between Lord Marlesford and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Lords Hansard - Part 1 & Committee stage
Thursday 3rd February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

The noble Lord is absolutely right, and this goes right back to the beginning of this discussion. We need to process claims quickly, grant asylum if the claims are valid, and ask people to leave if they are not. He is absolutely right and we agree with each other on this point: people’s claims need to be done expeditiously. Without making excuses, I say that the pandemic really held back the smooth running of our asylum system, as I am sure it did in other countries. I hope the noble Lord is satisfied. For the reasons I have outlined—so that we can both support asylum seekers appropriately and encourage that throughput that he was just talking about, by freeing up spaces in the asylum spaces— I hope noble Lords do not press their amendments.

[Lord Marlesford (Con)]

Does my noble friend agree that there must be a limit to the resources available to deal with the increasing potential scale of this problem?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

There is a limit to both the resources and the geography of this country. That is why the system needs to run in a way that accommodates the most vulnerable people. People whose claims are not upheld need to leave.

Immigration Rules: Supported Accommodation

Debate between Lord Marlesford and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Thursday 17th December 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

The noble Baroness described the changes as “major and fundamental”. They are neither major nor fundamental; they are technical changes. I made a commitment to the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, during the passage of the immigration Bill, that published guidance would necessarily be updated to ensure that it was clear and transparent by 31 December. The guidance will be published by the end of the year but, given the timescales involved, it has not been possible to consult on this ahead of publication.

[Lord Marlesford (Con) [V]]

Does the Minister recognise the challenging fact that the flow of economic migrants will continue until the standard of living of the country they are trying to reach is no longer sufficiently above that of the country they have left to make the risks and costs of the journey worthwhile? Does she further agree that the prospects of such a potential dilution of quality of life in the UK would not be tolerated by the electorate, whatever Government was in office?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My noble friend’s question is a global one: why would people make these dangerous journeys, facilitated by criminals and risking their own lives, if they were not fleeing such substandard, and in many cases frightening, conditions back home? It is a terribly sad state that so many migrants are willing to make that journey. It is only in helping people, both upstream and in the reception that we give to genuine asylum seekers, that we can hope to address in some way the terrible things that people are facing.

Covert Human Intelligence Sources (Criminal Conduct) Bill

Debate between Lord Marlesford and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Committee stage & Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 1st December 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

Try as I might, that was very difficult to hear. I think that the noble Baroness—I know that she will intervene on me again—made the following three points. In fact, I meant to pull out from the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, her first point: that authorising is done not by the handler but by a senior authorising officer. The second point was that training for CHIS handlers is extensive. She may have said “expensive” but I think she said “extensive,” because it would have to be extensive for this serious an operation.

I think the noble Baroness’s third point was that details of numbers have to be top secret to maintain and protect the welfare of the CHIS. I referred to the IPC report because I think that the noble Lord, either last year or the year before, gave numbers on juvenile CHIS, which gave a flavour of the numbers that we were talking about.

[Lord Marlesford (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I want to make a point on Amendment 77 on journalistic sources, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Whitaker. As I mentioned to my noble friend last week, Parliament already has an effective equivalent to judicial review. I referred to the Economist case of 1975, when the House of Commons Committee of Privileges imposed a personal penalty on the editor and a journalist—who happened to be me—of the Economist due to the premature publication of the draft report of the Select Committee on a Wealth Tax and our refusal to reveal our sources. The House of Commons debated this on the Floor of the Chamber for more than two hours and voted not to impose the penalty.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I think the only response to that is to thank my noble friend for taking the time to explain it to noble Lords.

Covid-19: Support and Accommodation for Asylum Seekers

Debate between Lord Marlesford and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Tuesday 30th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, the health service generally, whether in Scotland or here, has had to find new ways of working through the pandemic, so assessments probably happen remotely, as they do for the general population. He is right to ask whether they take into account the specific needs of people who perhaps have fled war-torn countries to seek asylum and refuge here. This pandemic has seen the very best of our NHS. I am fully confident that when assessments happen, NHS doctors and nurses are well trained to take into account the vulnerabilities and traumas that these people may have faced.

[Lord Marlesford (Con) [V]]

My Lords, in her reply last week to my Written Question on the asylum process, the Minister said:

“Individual applications are referred to Ministers where they are identified as potentially sensitive”.


Unfortunately, she was unable to give me any information on how often this happens. Does she agree that in determining an asylum application, the authorities must always consider potential risks to national security, which may require balancing the risk to the asylum seeker with that to the UK, and may mean that asylum seekers must be detained in custody? Of the 10 serious terrorist attacks since March 2017, some have been associated with an asylum seeker. Is she prepared to review the cases where asylum and permanent UK residence have been granted, and where the seeker has been convicted of terrorist offences in other jurisdictions?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My noble friend makes some valid points. He is absolutely right that we need to balance the claim of the asylum seeker with any danger that they might pose and also the genuine nature of the claim. My honourable friend Chris Philp, a Minister in the House of Commons, said yesterday there how important it was to weed out the genuine from the—shall we say?—non-genuine asylum seeker. I am sure that the services do analysis like that all the time, examining the type of behaviour experienced after someone is granted asylum, their vulnerability and the things that might cause it.

Black Lives Matter: Protests

Debate between Lord Marlesford and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Monday 15th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Marlesford (Con) [V]]

My Lords, can the Minister see that for both sides of the argument on the removal of statues, every day that the statue of Winston Churchill remains boxed up is a day when the banner of anarchy is raised over Parliament Square? Does this direct action on statues not echo horribly the fascist days of Islamic State, when it attacked the city of Palmyra and publicly decapitated the archaeologist in charge? Has the Minister read the compelling speech by the young American black activist Candace Owens, on the appalling murder of George Floyd?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I confess that I have not read it, but my noble friend is right to point out that we can all think of attempts through the ages to erase culture and history for various reasons. The boxed-up Churchill is such a sorry sight. I understand that it was boxed up for its protection against some of the protests at the weekend. The sooner the Churchill statue is freed and he is commemorated once again as one of the greatest people who ever lived, the better.

Operation Midland

Debate between Lord Marlesford and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Monday 3rd February 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I said at the beginning that HMICFRS was undertaking an inspection to see whether lessons had been learned from Operation Midland. That report is due out at the end of March.

[Lord Marlesford (Con)]

My Lords, do the Government not realise that it is not acceptable to this House or to the country that Sir Edward Heath’s reputation should be trashed and no attempt made to have a judicial review, which would be independent and respected, into the circumstances of Operation Conifer, bearing in mind that the chief constable who was responsible for it was subsequently retired in disgrace from another force?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

Where I think I can agree with my noble friend—with the whole House, in fact—is that if false allegations are made against someone, it not only damages their reputation but undermines public confidence. In an instance of false accusation, it may be appropriate to support a prosecution for attempting to pervert the course of justice.

Facial Recognition Surveillance

Debate between Lord Marlesford and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Monday 27th January 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I wish the noble Lord’s Private Member’s Bill all the very best when it comes to your Lordships’ House—without pre-empting, obviously, its outcome.

As for inaccuracy, LFR has been shown to be 80% accurate. It has thrown up one false result in 4,500 and there was no evidence of racial bias against BME people. I should point out that a human operative always makes the final decision; this is not decision by machine.

[Lord Marlesford (Con)]

My Lords, the lamentable decline in security on our streets and elsewhere makes it essential that every modern technique to increase security is used. Will the Minister agree to a seminar or something so that those noble Lords who are particularly interested in this subject may be given a briefing in some depth?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

That is a very constructive suggestion. I am happy to arrange a briefing on this technology for any noble Lords who wish to have one.

Immigration Staff: Recruitment

Debate between Lord Marlesford and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Thursday 18th July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Marlesford]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to review the recruitment processes of (1) UK Visas and Immigration and (2) the Border Force.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, recruitment processes within all Home Office business areas are kept under regular review to ensure effectiveness and compliance with Civil Service policy. The Home Office adheres to the Civil Service Commissioners’ recruitment principles and conducts pre-appointment checks in line with the baseline personnel security standard and national security vetting requirements.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Marlesford (Con)]

My Lords, some 50 Home Office officials, nearly all from the immigration side of the Home Office, have been sent to prison over the past 12 years for abuses of public office, yet the Home Office continues to deny that there is a problem, indicating that there are just a few rotten apples in the barrel. It now seems to be seeking to conceal the names of those officials. How can the Minister justify on grounds of privacy, as she did in a Written Answer to me on 4 July, the withholding from Parliament of the names of Shamsu Iqbal and Simon Pellett, who were sentenced in open court to 11 years and 23 years respectively for assisting unlawful immigration and smuggling of drugs and firearms? I might say that this is at a time when the Home Office is still trying to stop a judicial inquiry into the trashing of the reputation of Sir Edward Heath. Will the Government now take seriously, with a proper review, the possible deep corruption in that part of the Home Office—indeed, the possibility of enemies within it?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I reject my noble friend’s assertions that there is deep corruption within the Home Office. On releasing names, my noble friend will know that the Home Office is legally not allowed to disclose this information. It will not, to ensure that it does not breach statutory and data protection obligations, and that is what I outline to him. Although the names of staff members are known in court, this is not necessarily the same as being in the public domain. The disclosure of names would have to satisfy a high threshold under the GDPR and Section 9 of the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974, which makes it an offence to disclose the facts of an offence in respect of a rehabilitated person.

Sexual Offences: Anonymity

Debate between Lord Marlesford and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Wednesday 3rd July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I am not suggesting at all that the petition is not being taken seriously. The independent inquiry into historical child sexual abuse is taking a very robust approach to the institutional responses to those historical allegations of child sexual abuse.

[Lord Marlesford (Con)]

My Lords, are there any circumstances in which this Government will commission a judicial review into the handling of the case against Sir Edward Heath?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I think I have made it clear to the House that my right honourable friend the Home Secretary does not intend to institute such a review.

Brexit: Border Controls

Debate between Lord Marlesford and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Wednesday 19th June 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I am saying that I am confident. A number of the measures that we have taken over the past few months underline my comments. On EU exit, the Border Force has had an additional £91.7 million on top of its gross annual budget.

I turn to the work we are doing in other states, which is incredibly important because drugs and firearms, which the noble Lord raised, are not a UK problem—they are a global problem and require a global response. We liaise and communicate in a number of forums to ensure the global response that we intend to maintain when the UK leaves the European Union. The noble Lord will also know that my right honourable friend the Home Secretary, in his meeting with Monsieur Castaner back in January, boosted and bolstered our response to the juxtaposed controls and the channel.

[Lord Marlesford (Con)]

My Lords, is the Minister saying that she is happy with the situation? Is she not well aware that something like 50 Home Office officials, mainly connected with the border agency, have been sent to prison in the last few years? Is she not aware of the case raised by my Written Question and to which she replied, in which, on 16 November last year, one Home Office official, accused of smuggling drugs and firearms, was sent to prison for 23 years? Does that not indicate something pretty awful?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I am well aware of what my noble friend talks about. I pay tribute to the Border Force and the work it has done. He will probably acknowledge that in any organisation, there will be people who seek to break the law and that is what happened here. Nevertheless, the Border Force is an excellent organisation that does great work.

Emergency Services Network

Debate between Lord Marlesford and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Tuesday 14th May 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

What the noble Lord points out is correct. As I said to the noble Lord, currently a change notice is being prepared for signing to reset the situation. I think that Motorola acquired the contract after it had the Airwave contract, rather than at the point when the contract was signed. But a change notice is being issued to try to resolve the situation.

[Lord Marlesford (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend recognise that the Government’s record on procuring high-tech projects is lamentable? Will she consider consulting Mr Ken Livingstone, under whom the very successful congestion charging system was introduced into London without a hitch? He might be able to point her in the right direction of good management.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I am not sure that even the Labour Party would consult Ken Livingstone if it wanted any advice. The congestion charge was done under Ken Livingstone, and I am sure that there were many good people behind it. On a positive note, this infrastructure project is sorely needed, both in terms of its reach and the potential number of victims it can get to. As a result of the upgrade to 4G and 5G it will have reach underground and from surface to air—therefore, there is no going back on it. But, as I said, we need this reset and I am glad that the change notice is being issued.

Identity Cards

Debate between Lord Marlesford and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Tuesday 30th April 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

Of course the things the noble Lord mentioned latterly are all tools in the police’s armoury in investigating and dealing with criminals. Incorporating that into an ID card that embraces all those things goes against civil liberties. We believe that identity should be provided for the purpose for which it is needed, not for everything but just for a single event.

[Lord Marlesford (Con)]

Does my noble friend recollect that I have frequently said that the priority is not so much an identity card as a secure, reliable identity number to take the place of the unreliable, insecure, deeply corrupt national insurance numbers, national health numbers and so on? When will Ministers start to challenge the stubbornness of the Home Office in refusing to consider these issues? We had a disgraceful example of that stubbornness in the debate yesterday, with the point-blank refusal even to consider taking the necessary action to restore the reputation of Sir Edward Heath, which was trashed in Wiltshire.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I am not sure how my noble friend’s two points tie together. He talks about an identity number, and of course a national insurance number is a form of identity number. Certainly it proves a person’s right to work in this country. I am not sure how a separate national identity number would add to the mix; nor am I sure how my noble friend thinks that national insurance numbers are corrupt, unless he is saying that they are used corruptly, but I am sure that the same would also potentially be true of national identity numbers.

Passports

Debate between Lord Marlesford and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Wednesday 10th April 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I give the British public more credit for their intelligence than does the noble Lord. Of course, the Croatian passport is not burgundy, it is blue, and there is a reason for that. The Croatians did not want the association with communism writ large on their passports in the form of the red colour. Some people might rather like it, though. I do not think that it is confusing. The wrong thing to do would be to scrap a load of remade passports. There is absolutely no law against what we are doing. We intend to continue to make the blue passport available from later this year, and I look forward to ordering mine.

[Lord Marlesford (Con)]

My Lords, perhaps I may turn for a moment from the cosmetics of passports to the national security implications. On 12 March, my noble friend Lord Wasserman asked the Government,

“how many holders of UK passports also hold passports issued by other countries”?

The reply was:

“Her Majesty’s Passport office does not hold a central record or database of persons holding both a UK passport and foreign passport”.


Is it not time that the Government put this right?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank my noble friend for his persistence. It is perfectly legal to hold a passport from more than one country and the Government do not have any plans to change that.

Police: Recruitment Criteria

Debate between Lord Marlesford and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Tuesday 2nd April 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord is absolutely right and, of course, speaks from the highest experience. To be able to go on and do something else with the skills that you have accrued through, say, policing is really important. On the point about accreditation, it has to be recognised that the pattern of crime, and therefore of policing, has changed so much over the years. Police need to be trained in the new and emerging activities that criminals are undertaking—digital crime, for example.

[Lord Marlesford (Con)]

My Lords, in the days of national service—my noble friend will not remember those herself—12 weeks of very tough basic training, followed by 16 weeks at an officer cadet school, produced some outstanding officers who were well qualified for the job.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I am not sure what the question was. However, my noble friend makes the point that the most rigorous training processes need to be gone through to make the best police officers. Also, because crime is changing, accreditation and standards need to be set for the new environment in policing.

Immigration (European Economic Area Nationals) (EU Exit) Order 2019

Debate between Lord Marlesford and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Monday 18th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Marlesford (Con)]

I would like to follow up that last point. It is what I have been talking about for years. We have totally inadequate means of knowing who has come in, when they have come in, when they should leave and whether they have left. The whole system is a shambles. This is an opportunity to get it right.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank noble Lords for their contributions to this debate. My noble friend Lord Marlesford is correct; this is an opportunity to get it right.

It would probably be helpful to start by stating the purpose of this statutory instrument, and that, I hope, will go to some extent to my noble friend Lord Deben’s point. This statutory instrument is essentially a temporary arrangement in a no-deal situation, until free movement ends under the immigration Bill. In a no-deal scenario, we will end free movement as soon as possible after exit, subject to parliamentary approval of the Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill. In a no-deal scenario, once free movement has ended, there would be a transitional period until the new skills-based immigration system is introduced in January 2021. This order ensures that during this period, we would minimise disruption at the border and provide initial continuity for EEA and Swiss citizens, and for businesses. The Government announced these transitional arrangements on 28 January. Regarding the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, about seeming to favour EU nationals, the whole point of this is to provide that transitional certainty.

The noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, talked about how the three-month period would be enforced. Obviously these are transitional arrangements, to be put in place only in the event of no deal. We cannot switch things off and on overnight, so we need to ensure that the correct legislation and operational plans are in place. It will take some time to prepare for our new skills-based immigration system, but the Government have been clear that our intention is for it to be in place by 2021.

These arrangements lay the foundations for the future. We cannot control European immigration until all EEA and Swiss citizens here have a UK immigration status, which will take some time. In a no-deal scenario, those resident here by 29 March 2019 will have until the end of 2020 to apply to the EU settlements scheme. These arrangements enable us to move from a rights-based system of free movement to a UK system where everyone requires permission to be here. Accordingly, until the new system is introduced, a proportionate, light-touch enforcement approach will be taken in respect of EEA and Swiss citizens. The noble Lord asked me to define “light touch”—I assume that it means without too much bureaucratic involvement in form filling and other matters that make life very difficult.

If an EEA or Swiss citizen is found not to have appropriate status, we will encourage them to make the relevant application. I am absolutely clear on the importance of clear communications so that individuals understand their status. This is imperative for those resident in the UK before we leave the UK on 29 March, and those who arrive here afterwards. Our focus is on encouraging and supporting EEA and Swiss citizens to acquire an appropriate status and ensure that they have sufficient time to do so. We are committed to a fair immigration system which operates with integrity and which welcomes those who are here legally. But we are clear that compliance with UK immigration laws and rules is essential in supporting this.

For those who arrive after free movement ends, we will make it clear that they need to apply for European temporary leave to remain before their three months’ automatic leave expires. Where they have good reason for not doing so, we will encourage them to make this application, or to leave the UK voluntarily, but where there is abuse of the system, we will consider enforcement action.

The noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, asked how long the application will take. Applications for 36-month temporary leave to remain will use the EU settlement scheme infrastructure, which allows them to be determined within a period of days. He also asked what will happen at the end of the three months to those who will have applied for 36 months’ leave. If a person applies for 36 months leave within three months, they can still stay lawfully in the UK until their application is decided.

The noble Lord, Lord Paddick, asked why the exemption from the immigration health surcharge is needed. The exemption in this order applies to those applying for leave under the EU settlements scheme, not those who obtained three months’ leave to enter under part 2 of the order. The noble Lord also asked if people could leave the UK, then return and obtain a further three months. The answer is yes.

The noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, asked about the three months’ automatic leave to enter. The order provides that in a no-deal scenario, three months’ leave to enter would be granted to EEA and Swiss citizens who required such leave once free movement has ended. It would be granted automatically upon arrival at the border, allowing them to work, study or visit for short periods as we transition towards the new skills-based immigration system, to be introduced from 2021.

The noble Lord, Lord Paddick, asked about consultation on the order. These are transitional arrangements to ensure that the border remains fluid after the end of free movement, and until we move to the order arrangements, from 2021 onwards. These plans were set out in the Government’s White Paper, The UK’s Future Skills-Based Immigration System, and the Government intend a 12-month period of engagement on such plans. The noble Lord also asked about the exit checks on EU nationals now. They will be introduced when we leave.

Migrant Crossings

Debate between Lord Marlesford and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Monday 7th January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I want to assure my noble friend that this measure is not permanent. It is to deal with a sudden upsurge in the influx of people crossing the channel to come to this country. It is right to take cutters from elsewhere, but this operation is not by the UK alone. We are operating in cohort with our international partners but we do not want them here any longer than they need to be.

[Lord Marlesford (Con)]

My Lords, I worry whether the Government have the political courage to face the realities of this situation. I note that the Home Secretary asked what must be a rhetorical question because the answer is so obvious: why are so many people choosing to cross the channel from France to the UK when France is a safe country? The answer is perfectly obvious. Are the Government not aware that the rate of migration across the Mediterranean started at a very small level, changing a great deal very rapidly and becoming quite unsustainable only when it was established as a safe method of moving, helped by the Royal Navy’s HMS “Albion”? Are the Government aware that this could happen next summer?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The Government are totally aware of the consequences of a small number of migrants coming across the channel in dinghies suddenly escalating into something much bigger, hence the swift action that my right honourable friend the Home Secretary had the political courage to take.

Future Immigration

Debate between Lord Marlesford and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Wednesday 19th December 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The UK is a very attractive place for students to come and study. I mentioned earlier the rise in the number of students coming here. We have never capped student numbers and students continue to come in ever-increasing numbers. The system we have in place is certainly not putting off students. They will come here because we have some of the best universities in the world.

On the Home Secretary being pessimistic about the future, this House and the other place would rightly criticise him if he did not plan for all eventualities. Therefore, he is absolutely right to plan for a deal or no deal. If we had a deal, I am not sure how different the White Paper would look.

On taking back control, we will take back control of our borders when we leave the EU on 29 March, and this is the first step.

[Lord Marlesford (Con)]

My Lords, I refer to Chapter 4 of the White Paper, on border control. First, I expect my noble friend will agree that one of the consequences of the new system will be a pretty crucial change to the common travel area with Ireland. Currently, people flying from Heathrow to Dublin have their passport checked. People flying from Dublin to the UK go straight to baggage collection and do not go through immigration at all. That will have to change; otherwise, it will not be possible to check those people in the plane who do not have the entitlement that the Irish and British people have.

Secondly, does she agree that when she refers to the American ESTA system, crucially, this is based on using biometrics and involves the matching of eyes and fingerprints? Will she therefore ask those in her department who so cavalierly dismissed on Monday my attempt to introduce a national identity number linked to biometrics as being against civil liberties to think again?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

One thing I have to admire my noble friend for is that he very cleverly weaves in some of his issues. I am not going to revisit the issues we discussed on Monday. Of course, the common travel area existed long before the EU did—that is the point I was making to the noble Lord, Lord Dubs—and it will continue to exist after we leave the EU.

Stop and Search Powers

Debate between Lord Marlesford and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Monday 12th November 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I apologise; I did not deliberately leave it out. The noble Lord is right to make that point. We are acutely aware of it, as is the Home Secretary. Recent stories in the papers have not made for good reading. There are several reasons why knife crime is on the increase, not least the link to drugs, I am afraid. Through the Offensive Weapons Bill and the strategy that we have recently produced, we are absolutely determined to tackle it.

[Lord Marlesford (Con)]

My Lords, knife crime normally involves carrying a knife, knives are normally made of metal, and metal is very easy to detect. Why do the police not ensure—not in a discriminatory way, but for everybody in particular areas—that people are subjected to the same system as is used in airports? Mobile arches could be set up outside Underground stations where everybody passes through—in St James’s Street as well as in Peckham. Search everyone; you would at least make it much more difficult to carry a knife around London. Why not have a go?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, the notion of searching everybody who goes through an Underground station would, I am afraid, be unfeasible. In addition to knives, there are other metal things that people might carry in their pockets. I can foresee that system as being entirely unworkable. I go back to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Rosser: intelligence-led stop and search is the most effective way to deal with some of the problems we are seeing.

Immigration: Appeals

Debate between Lord Marlesford and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Tuesday 6th November 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble and learned Lord makes a good point. My response to the noble Lord, Lord Roberts, threw up a slightly different but substantial reason for things being delayed and appeals being upheld—that is, documentation coming forward at the last minute, making it too late for the Home Office to withdraw the appeal and sort out the issue. The noble and learned Lord is absolutely right: for many, it can be a very confusing and distressing time. However, we are making huge efforts to improve the process—for example, by withdrawing cases at the 20-week point to make sure that they are looked at again and that we do not have the problem that noble Lords are referring to.

[Lord Marlesford (Con)]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Marlesford]

My Lords, is not a fundamental and long-standing problem the quality of management in the Home Office? If the Home Office were any sort of private sector outfit, the management would have been changed long ago. When there is a failure of management, the owners, whether they be the Government or the shareholders, insist on a change. It seems to me that until there is really good management at Civil Service level, there will not be an improvement.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I know that my noble friend takes a rather dim view of some of the people who work in the Home Office, but he points to absolutely the right issue. We are now identifying and reviewing cases, and improving technical capability in the Home Office to help UKVI decisions, but we are also trying to ensure consistency in casework to prevent the occurrence of some of the issues raised by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick.

Counter-Terrorism and Border Security Bill

Debate between Lord Marlesford and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 31st October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, as noble Lords have said, Clause 12 strengthens the notification requirements under the Counter-Terrorism Act 2008 which apply to individuals convicted of terrorism offences, or offences with a terrorism connection, to enable the police to better manage the risk posed by such individuals. It does so by increasing the amount of information that registered terrorist offenders must notify to the police, in many respects bringing the requirements into line with those already in place for registered sex offenders.

The length of time that a terrorist offender is subject to the notification requirements varies depending on the length of sentence they receive, up to a maximum of 30 years for a person sentenced to 10 years’ or more imprisonment. The notification requirements are not onerous and do not place restrictions on an offender’s activities, but they do provide a proportionate means for the police to monitor the ongoing risk posed by a person who has been convicted of a terrorism offence and, where appropriate, to take action to mitigate any increased risk that they might pose.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, has explained that her amendment is motivated by a concern that it is not appropriate for a convicted terrorist to be subject to the requirements for this length of time without the ongoing necessity and proportionality of this being reviewed. I understand the sentiment behind her amendment but I disagree. As I have said, the notification requirements are not disproportionately onerous, and they flow as a direct consequence of a conviction for a terrorism offence—a category of offence which is of a particular level of seriousness. The notification measures provide a real benefit to the police in providing a quite light-touch but effective means of monitoring the ongoing risk posed by such a person over an extended period of time.

There is benefit in this, as individuals who are of a sufficiently terrorist mindset that they have been convicted of a terrorism offence, particularly one serious enough to merit a lengthy sentence of 10 or more years, can retain that mindset and can disengage and then re-engage over such an extended period of time. As such, the notification requirements in their current duration are, I suggest, clearly both necessary and proportionate.

The noble Baroness has suggested that, to ensure proportionality, we should follow the approach taken for registered sex offenders, which, following the Supreme Court’s judgment in the case of R (F) v Secretary of State for the Home Department, includes a review scheme along the lines that she has proposed. However, it is crucial to note that the Supreme Court ruled only that a review scheme was necessary in order to comply with Article 8 of the ECHR for registered sex offenders who are subject to the requirements indefinitely.

Of course, the terrorism notification requirements can apply only for a finite period. The Supreme Court did not find that the sex offender notification scheme, as it applied to individuals subject to the requirements for a finite period, was incompatible with Article 8. As a result, for registered sex offenders subject to the notification requirements for a fixed period, there is no review scheme. Furthermore, and in any event, we should also note that the Court of Appeal found in the case of Irfan that terrorism offending is in a different category to sex offending in terms of ongoing risk. Notwithstanding the particularly serious nature of sex offending, terrorism offences have, in the words of the Court of Appeal,

“unique features which compound concern. A single act can cause untold damage, including loss of life, to a large number of people, by someone motivated by extreme political or religious fanaticism”.

A failed or foiled plot can also still serve to inspire many. If anything calls for a precautionary approach, it is terrorism. I hope that, in the light of this explanation, the noble Baroness feels that she can withdraw her amendment.

[Lord Marlesford (Con)]

My Lords, just before the noble Baroness responds, does my noble friend feel that perhaps both points could be met if the period were made indefinite but with an appeal allowed after a certain time, so that this is brought into line with sex offences? I take my noble friend’s point that these offences are extremely serious and that there may be cases where indefinite alerting is absolutely necessary.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I think that my noble friend in fact agrees with my point, if I am not mistaken.

Immigration

Debate between Lord Marlesford and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Thursday 25th October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Marlesford (Con)]

My Lords, I have one question for my noble friend. In the Statement a crucial sentence states that,

“the provision of DNA evidence must be entirely voluntary”.

Why is that? Is DNA evidence not used for paternity cases and for other medical reasons? Is it not used in criminal investigations? What is the difference in principle between DNA and fingerprints or eye recognition? Surely, any means, when the country needs to know who somebody is, is perfectly legitimate.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank my noble friend for that question. I am referring, and the Statement referred, purely to the immigration system. He is absolutely right that biometrics cover a number of areas, as he said, including fingerprints and iris recognition—but in this context DNA presentation should be entirely voluntary.

Immigration Detention: Shaw Review

Debate between Lord Marlesford and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Tuesday 24th July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord. I have an updated position on torture. The vulnerable state in which victims of torture will present themselves has to be sensitively dealt with. That goes to what the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, said: we must treat people with humanity. It is paramount that any of the problems from their experience will be picked up immediately in the risk assessment that people enter into when they arrive in a detention centre. They will be dealt with sensitively and accordingly.

[Lord Marlesford (Con)]

I will quickly follow up the point made by my noble friend Lord Deben. The Statement says that,

“we will increase the number of Home Office staff in immigration removal centres”.

What is the present size of the staff? How many people are in the centres of the moment? How many illegal immigrants are there who are not in the centres?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I have a feeling that we do not release the number of staff that we have in our detention estate, but I will double check. If we do I will get those figures to the noble Lord.

Amesbury Incident

Debate between Lord Marlesford and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Thursday 5th July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Marlesford (Con)]

Does my noble friend agree that it sounds unlikely that this was an attack aimed at individuals? In its social, economic and psychological impact, is not an incident such as this much closer to something such as a cyberattack and does it not underline the vulnerability of modern societies to these new, mysterious and amorphous risks?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

On the first question, clearly I cannot comment, because the investigation has not reached its conclusion but that certainly seems to be what is promoted in the press. In terms of likening it to a cyberattack, agents such as Novichok have in fact been around for some time—it kind of reminded me of the Cold War, where such methods were used; I know that, after the first attack, people seemed to compare it with the Cold War era. The number of different ways, including cyberattacks, that can debilitate a town, region or even a country are growing and we are right to be concerned.

EU Settlement Scheme

Debate between Lord Marlesford and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Thursday 21st June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I think that it became clear, when my right honourable friend became Home Secretary, that culture change was afoot across the Home Office. He talked about a more humane approach to decision-making and about the end of the hostile environment, which would instead become a compliant environment. The wording of the Statement today was no accident. It reflects a much more positive attitude to people who make applications and tries to help them. As I say, I do not think that that is accidental and, since my right honourable friend became Home Secretary, his actions have shown that.

[Lord Marlesford (Con)]

My Lords, how does this settlement relate to the agreement with the EU on reciprocal treatment under the NHS? My noble friend will be aware that, under the present system, HMG pay for UK citizens who require medical treatment in the EU and we are meant to be repaid for treating EU citizens here. The trouble is that for some years it has been totally out of balance. The last time I looked at the figures, HMG paid out some £500 million for the treatment of UK citizens in the EU and received only about £50 million for the treatment of EU citizens in the UK. How is that relevant to what the Prime Minister said about the Brexit dividend?

Asylum Seekers

Debate between Lord Marlesford and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Tuesday 15th May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord is absolutely right to point out that this sort of thing should never happen again. I assume the most senior member is the most senior management person within the detention estate who organises these things. I do not have that sort of detail before me. I hope the noble Lord will appreciate that I have had very short notice of this Question. I am not trying to avoid his question. I will get back to him in writing.

[Lord Marlesford (Con)]

My Lords, that exchange of questions illustrates perfectly the point I want to make. This is yet another example of the incompetence of the Home Office in not being able properly to supervise the performance and activities of its subcontractors. This is not a major management problem. If the Home Office really cannot manage that then truly, as a noble Lord who is a former Home Secretary said, it is not fit for purpose. What is it going to do about it?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I just explained that a service improvement plan will be released very shortly. We always have to learn from events such as this and make sure that we improve our processes and treat people properly.

Refugees (Family Reunion) Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Marlesford and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Friday 11th May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, the Home Office often comes in for negative comments, so it is always nice to hear noble Lords pay tribute to the dedicated staff who work tirelessly for the right reasons and for the right outcomes for the people who apply. I look forward to the analysis of the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee.

[Lord Marlesford]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in the debate. I think we all agree that underlying the Bill are the humane intentions which we all support. Every example given was fully valid and I support them all. However, the fact remains that the Bill removes from the Home Office the powers and opportunities to control the total number of people who come into the country. I have indicated that I have a pretty low opinion of the Home Office’s capacity in this respect, but the right reverend Prelate put his finger on this point, which I mentioned in my speech: the only ground on which an application can be stopped by the Secretary of State is that of national security.

As the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, said, applications are available, but if there is no government check—the Bill explicitly and deliberately removes the government check—and if the Government do not have the ability to make the final decision, which of course is subject to every sort of lobbying and debate and all the rest of it, you are abrogating the overall control of immigration which I believe the people of this country would always insist upon. That is the fundamental error of the Bill.

My amendment was merely intended to draw attention to this and to reduce the possible number. I have said already that I thought 100,000 would probably be too many to be allowed in, but the Government must take on more clearly a policy on how many people and in what circumstances because I am by no means sure. The Government have always said that they want the brightest and the best, and that must be right for the country. None the less, there are strong humanitarian arguments for individual refugees to be able to be reunited in this country with their families. But it is about the way in which that is done and the avoidance of it being sidetracked by those with less creditable motives. It is important that we safeguard against that, and the only people who can do so are the Government and the Home Secretary.

There is a deep flaw in the Bill, but, equally, it has been worth while, and I hope that this has been a worthwhile debate. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Brexit: UK Passports

Debate between Lord Marlesford and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Thursday 29th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

It means that it will be subject to negotiations between this country and the EU. The noble Baroness has asked me about a specific point and, as well as my noble friend the Leader writing to her, I shall follow it up.

[Lord Marlesford (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend recognise that much more important than the colour of passports is the urgent need, in the interests of national security, to review the whole way in which passports are used? First, there is still not full scrutiny of all passports on departure. Secondly, information on the passports of those who have been excluded or deported is not recorded in such a way that immigration officers can see it and stop them coming in. Thirdly, there is no proper recording of stolen or lost passports with the immigration officers. Fourthly, information on people with second passports is not recorded and not available to immigration officers, who therefore lack the ability to check on the security implications of some movements.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My noble friend asked several questions. It is perfectly legitimate, for most countries, to own two passports if someone has dual nationality. In the case of stolen or lost passports, that should be declared to the passport authorities. On being deported, some people who have been deported will be on the list that border officials will have; others will not, of course, but the security services will certainly be aware of them. On the question about not all passports being checked on exit from this country, I think that most are. I do not know of a situation where one’s passport would not be checked when leaving this country.

Police and Crime Commissioners

Debate between Lord Marlesford and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Thursday 1st March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Marlesford (Con)]

My Lords, may I make it absolutely clear that the Government can take further action? The whole legal system is based on the Government intervening at a higher level when something is transparently wrong. Give or take the fact there are protocols, I am quite sure that the Government could commission a judge-led inquiry into this appalling report on Sir Edward Heath. I quite agree with the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours; it is a disgrace and pathetic that the Government have not acted long ago.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I repeat the assertion that I made earlier: the police are operationally independent of government. On this matter it would be for the PCC, perhaps in conjunction with the chief constable, to commission an inquiry.

Mohammed Mirzo

Debate between Lord Marlesford and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Thursday 19th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Marlesford (Con)]

My Lords, my right honourable friend the Defence Secretary recently warned British jihadists who go out to fight for ISIS that they may find themselves at the wrong end of an American or British missile. Would it be sensible to extend that warning to those British jihadists who go out to fight for ISIL that they will not be allowed to return to the UK?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My noble friend quite skilfully completely departs from the Question, but the word “Syrian” is in the Question, so I admire him for his efforts. What would happen would depend on the case. People who have been to Syria to fight are dealt with using the full force of the law if and when they return, and many do not return.

Prevent Strategy

Debate between Lord Marlesford and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Wednesday 6th September 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, the Government take all the steps possible to make sure that there are not extremists serving in the Armed Forces. Clearly, some people hide those sentiments and the events of yesterday were clear to see. Just as we are tackling Islamist extremism, so we must tackle the far right.

[Lord Marlesford (Con)]

My Lords, is my noble friend’s Question not in danger of making a distinction where there is actually little difference? In the case of political Islam, which she referred to, is this not rather well represented in both cases by the Muslim Brotherhood, which seems to me to be rather like Sinn Fein was to the IRA?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, there clearly is a distinction between people who hold extremist views and promote those views to others, and those who actually go on to commit acts of terrorism. That is why we make a distinction between the two, with the former group being tackled on all sides by some of the programmes and engagement that we have with communities throughout this country.

Security: ID Cards

Debate between Lord Marlesford and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Thursday 20th July 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Marlesford (Con)]

My Lords, I hope my noble friend the Minister recognises that knowing who people are is a pretty crucial ingredient of national security. I am not particularly keen on identity cards because a competent forger nowadays can forge any document, including biometrics. What is needed is a national number with biometrics, held nationally, which everyone has instead of the plethora of numbers, most of which mean nothing at all. Will the Minister at least study the need for and the possibility of introducing a national identity number?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, we have many numbers that help in assuring our identity. I am not sure that this would add to the mix. I am certainly happy to look at this, but I do not think there is any evidence that a national identity number would improve security in this country. I have already outlined to the noble Lord, Lord Blair, how this country is helping to make us safer.

Terrorist Attacks

Debate between Lord Marlesford and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Thursday 22nd June 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank the noble Baroness for that question. I did not give much detail about the commission for countering extremism because I simply do not have much detail at this point. Recommendations will certainly come back to Parliament. There was a question in the other place earlier about Parliament feeling outside what the commission does, but Parliament will be consulted and have its say on the commission’s recommendations. As for stamping out extremism, will we always stamp out all types of extremism? No, we will not, but what we can do as a society is collectively be intolerant of extremism in our society, and the cohesion of our communities will, to a great extent, achieve this.

[Lord Marlesford (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend recognise that when countering terrorism, to preserve our national security, there will be occasions when there is a real and irreconcilable conflict with human rights? Will she assure the House that the Government will always carry out a careful and proportional assessment in order to decide in such cases whether counterterrorism or human rights should take precedence?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My noble friend brings up a very good point about the balance that we have in place to preserve our human rights—we will not be leaving the European Convention on Human Rights, as the manifesto makes clear—while also bringing perpetrators of terrorist atrocities to book. When we look forward, we will certainly consider whether we have got that balance right.

Police National Database: Facial Images

Debate between Lord Marlesford and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Thursday 2nd March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, there is a presumption of deletion in certain categories—certainly for the under-18s, for those not convicted, as the noble Lord said, and for people who have been convicted of a non-recordable offence. These can all request that their images be deleted, but there are exceptions which I think are reasonable—if there is a substantive reason to believe that someone is linked to terrorism, if they are dangerous or if they are linked to organised crime. Otherwise, there is now an arrangement whereby people can request deletion.

[Lord Marlesford (Con)]

My Lords, I am surprised that there are so few photographic records available to the police. I should have thought that there was a good case for all passport photographs to be available to the police. Does my noble friend agree that given a conflict between fighting serious crime, particularly terrorism, and privacy, the British people would almost certainly regard the former as having priority?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My noble friend talks about privacy. If everybody was required to put their passport photographs towards a national database there might be a real issue with privacy. What the Government are trying to do, and my noble friend alluded to it, is to have images on record of people previously convicted of a crime. The custody image review is attempting to get rid of the facial images of those who are not convicted—and I include myself in that. If you have a passport but have not been convicted, I am not sure what benefit your photograph could be to the police national database.

Terrorist Attack: Response

Debate between Lord Marlesford and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Thursday 23rd February 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Baroness makes a vital point. In any disaster that I can think of, whether flooding, a terrorist attack or anything else, it is through everyone working together, and that mutual assistance from agencies working together, that we get the best outcomes for our citizens in such awful situations. The noble Baroness is absolutely right.

[Lord Marlesford (Con)]

My Lords, as we are talking about terrorism, may I take this opportunity to ask the Government when they expect to stop allowing themselves to be blackmailed by terrorists and their advisers into paying out large sums in order to protect our security services?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I think my noble friend knows he is completely off the scope of the Question. I cannot talk about specific incidents because of course they are matters of national security.

Passport Applications: Digitisation

Debate between Lord Marlesford and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Wednesday 18th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The Government have rejected the idea of an identity card, but noble Lords will notice that when they go through passport gates now their face is compared with the photograph on the passport. The machines that do the face recognition, which is a form of biometrics, are very accurate indeed.

[Lord Marlesford (Con)]

My Lords, is it not a fact that a photograph is merely a rather unsophisticated form of biometrics and that the only safe way of doing this is for the biometrics of any individual to be held centrally? When a person seeks to be identified, the person trying to identify them can, online, compare the biometrics of the person in front of them with those held centrally. That means that you cannot use a fake card or anything else. You need not an identity card but a number, with the biometrics attached centrally to that number.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

There are a number of biometrics through which a person can be compared—it could be a photograph or fingerprints. The biometrics that we use on the British passport are very robust.

National Identity Cards

Debate between Lord Marlesford and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Wednesday 16th November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, we do have common systems of identification: 84% of people in this country have a passport and 60% have a driving licence. As the noble Lord said, many European countries have identity cards, but we have not seen any evidence that they offer any greater protection than we have in this country.

[Lord Marlesford (Con)]

My Lords, does the Minister accept that we are quite right not to have identity cards for the very reason given by the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, that all those documents are forgeable? Surely what is needed is a unique number for every citizen—because if a state does not know who its citizens are for national security, good governance and everything else, it is not in business. If there were a single number to which biometrics could be attached, it would be a big advance. We do not need the actual card.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I think that my noble friend is saying the same thing as me but in a different way. In this country we have passports and driving licences. As I said, there is no evidence that identity cards have improved security in the European countries that have them.

Policing and Crime Bill

Debate between Lord Marlesford and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard - part one): House of Lords
Wednesday 2nd November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, Amendment 181, tabled by my noble friend Lord Marlesford would require a custody officer to do two things once a decision has been made that no further action is to be taken against a suspect because the test for mounting a prosecution, set out in the Code for Crown Prosecutors, has not been met. First, the custody officer would need to notify the person in writing that no further action is to be taken. Secondly, the written notice must use the phrase “lack of evidence” to describe the reasoning behind the decision.

The Government agree with my noble friend that written notification should be given in all cases. We consulted on this in late 2014 and Clauses 65 and 66 would require a written notification to be given to any person arrested on suspicion of a criminal offence, where the police or Crown Prosecution Service subsequently decide not to charge. This applies whether or not the person is on bail following the reforms set out in Part 4 of the Bill. My noble friend’s amendment would go one stage further and require the written notification of no further action in those cases where a person is interviewed under caution on suspicion of an offence but not arrested. We know from anecdotal evidence that, since the amendment of PACE Code G in 2012, more cases are being dealt with by the police without arresting the suspect, which may have created a gap in police practice that my noble friend’s amendment identifies. In order to give this issue appropriate consideration, I would like to take it away and consider it further before Report.

The second limb of my noble friend’s amendment would require that the written notice and any other record used the phrase “lack of evidence”, rather than the customary “insufficient evidence” used at present. It may assist the Committee if I remind noble Lords of the evidential test required by the Code for Crown Prosecutors. Paragraph 4.4 of the code states:

“Prosecutors must be satisfied that there is sufficient evidence to provide a realistic prospect of conviction against each suspect on each charge. They must consider what the defence case may be, and how it is likely to affect the prospects of conviction. A case which does not pass the evidential stage must not proceed, no matter how serious or sensitive it may be”.

The absence of “sufficient evidence to provide a realistic prospect of conviction” could easily be characterised as a “lack of evidence” or as the presence of “insufficient evidence”. We could debate for some time the precise difference between the two phrases, which must be very small.

Noble Lords have said that there has been some comment in the media, in the light of recent high-profile cases, that the dropping of cases due to “insufficient evidence” could leave an outside observer thinking that there must have been something there. This reflects the reality of policing: that there has to be sufficient evidence to justify an arrest—that is, reasonable grounds to suspect that an offence has been committed. However, the investigative process in such cases will often end up with insufficient evidence, or, to use my noble friend’s phrase, a “lack of evidence”, that could still mean there was some evidence, but not sufficient to charge.

The Code for Crown Prosecutors is issued by the Director of Public Prosecutions under Section 10 of the Prosecution of Offences Act 1985. The current version, dating from January 2013, is the seventh edition of the code, and every version since 1986 has stated essentially the same requirement for,

“sufficient evidence to provide a realistic prospect of conviction”.

I say to my noble friend and other noble Lords that “insufficient evidence” seems to reflect the wording of the code test rather better and that it is the opinion of the Crown Prosecution Service that the current phrasing has been used for more than 30 years and works well in practice.

While I recognise that the amendment would not change the test itself, to change the way that decisions made under the code are communicated, even to the small degree proposed by my noble friend, could create confusion, as there would be a tendency to ask which test should now be applied and whether it means the same thing. It could also invite doubt in the minds of prosecutors, judges, defence lawyers and others as to the reliability of decisions made against different tests.

I also point out to noble Lords that there are two tests in the Code for Crown Prosecutors that must be met before charges are brought. It is perfectly possible for there to be sufficient evidence to meet the first test, but for it none the less to be contrary to the public interest to charge, for example, where a case is to be disposed of out of court by way of a conditional caution.

While Clauses 65 and 66 set a requirement to notify a suspect that they will not be charged, that notice would need to be given in both scenarios; that is, where there was insufficient evidence and where the evidence was sufficient but charges were not in the public interest. However, under my noble friend’s amendment, a suspect would need to be told in all cases that they were not being charged due to a lack of evidence, even though there must be sufficient evidence to charge to get to the point of considering the public interest test.

I can say to my noble friend that the Government are sympathetic to his aim of giving greater certainty to those who are investigated but against whom charges are not brought. We are minded to achieve this by non-statutory means so that prosecutors retain the necessary flexibility in cases where a decision is taken on public interest grounds.

On the issue of written notification of a decision not to charge, the Government consider that Clauses 65 and 66 already require such notification in all cases where an arrest has taken place. However, I would like to give further consideration to the issue of those interviewed under caution without being arrested. I hope that my noble friend will recognise that the precise wording of that notification is an issue best dealt with by non-statutory means and that, having heard my statement, he will be content to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Marlesford]

My Lords, I am most grateful to all noble Lords who have contributed with knowledge and experience far greater than mine. I was very gratified that there was so much support for what I had to say. I thank the Minister for what she said. She has gone a long way to accepting what I intend. I am happy to leave it to her to come back to us and tell us exactly what it is proposed to do.

The rather Socratic justification which she gave for the terminology is okay in esoteric circles, but we are concerned with what the people as a whole see, and we are back to the old cliché that justice must be seen to be done. When she says that the difference between my phrase and “insufficient evidence” is very small, I remind her that it was said that at one moment Christendom was divided by an iota.

Having said all that, I am most grateful to my noble friend for her sympathetic approach to what I have said, and I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Smoke and Carbon Monoxide Alarm (England) Regulations 2015

Debate between Lord Marlesford and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Monday 14th September 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, that is the information we have. I can ask them to clarify how they thought that 8 million people had received this information and write to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, and other noble Lords who are taking part in the debate. I would not want information to be incorrect, but it is the information that I have.

[Lord Marlesford]

If my noble friend believes that the British Property Federation is so happy, why on 11 September did it say that it is necessary to put back the compliance date—not necessarily the date of bringing this into force, but the compliance date—until April 2016? It is a big outfit and it is pointing out that 4.4 million properties are involved.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I take my noble friend’s point. There have been other concerns about the timing, but as I laid out in my opening speech and as I will explain in my responses to noble Lords this evening, this is the right thing to do at this time.

My noble friend Lord Crickhowell talked about rogue landlords and my description of rogue landlords. These regulations are intended to target those very few landlords who do not have a concern for tenants’ safety or security.

Smoke and Carbon Monoxide Alarm (England) Regulations 2015

Debate between Lord Marlesford and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Monday 7th September 2015 Grand Committee

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

A key stakeholder is someone who has a stake or interest in the regulation or legislation at hand.

In going forward with the regulations, the Government provided £3.2 million in a one-off grant to help fire and rescue—

[Lord Marlesford]

Before my noble friend leaves that point, I was certainly not regarded as a key stakeholder—there is no reason why I should be—but I received from the CLA only this morning a link for me to be able to download the advisory note issued last Friday. It produced its new view when it received that advisory note last Friday, which makes the idea of bringing it into force with no period of grace obvious nonsense.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I take my noble friend’s point: he is not a key stakeholder and he got it from someone who would be regarded as a key stakeholder. That includes local authorities, groups of landlords and managing agents. It is not long until 1 October, but the draft regulations were laid back in March, so people who have an interest in this—that is, stakeholders—knew that it was coming.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I will certainly do so. I have just spotted that point and I will certainly write to the noble Lord.

[Lord Marlesford]

Following the very interesting, important and sensible point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, does the Minister not now realise that the courts or anyone else will not see three weeks as being a reasonable time for these regulations to be put into effect? The guidance states that there is no grace period. If anyone tried to impose a £5,000 penalty on day two, three or four, I would have thought that that would be seen as absurd in judicial review terms. Will she not take away and reconsider the implementation date? I certainly could not agree to the regulations going forward with an implementation date of 1 October. That is obviously nonsense. The Minister herself gave a lot of examples, referring particularly to the very limited number of stakeholders. One would like to know how many stakeholders there are. I very much doubt whether people have had advisory notices. I do not believe that anyone would regard dishing out advice last Friday, three weeks before the regulations come into force, as adequate. It clearly is not. It is bad government and basically bad administration by Whitehall, and I hope that the Minister does not defend it.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, there are two points here. First, it is imperative to protect tenants from unscrupulous landlords who will not meet their obligations. Secondly, in the theoretical situation set out by my noble friend, if on day two—2 October—a landlord was in breach, that landlord would have 28 days to comply, so the date we are talking about is more like six weeks from now.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Harris of Richmond) (LD)]

The Question is that this Motion be agreed to. As many as are of that opinion will say “Content”; to the contrary, “Not content”.