Junior Doctors’ Strikes

Debate between Lord Markham and Baroness Thornhill

Thursday 30th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Markham (Con)]

We have taken the talks incredibly seriously. We have proven in other areas with the Agenda for Change unions that, with good will on all sides, we have managed to reach an agreement. I think most people would agree it is not a reasonable position to go in saying that, unless they get a 35% pay increase, they are not willing to have any further talks. That is not something that I believe many of us could support. We are always open to reasonable negotiation, as we have proved in the other cases, and we remain open to having that reasonable negotiation now.

[Baroness Thornhill (LD)]

My Lords, many hospital trusts are having to bring in more senior doctors in this period to cover the strikes, at what must be considerable expense. Given that quite a few trusts are already going into deficit due to inflationary pressures, will the Government be making provision to cover these additional and unexpected costs? We know that working as a junior doctor is physically intensive, but it is also a mentally exhausting line of work. The decision to strike will have put serious mental stress on junior doctors; they did not train for years to go on strike and cause this. So who is looking after the mental health and well-being of our junior doctors?

[Lord Markham (Con)]

I think we all agree that the mental health and well-being of everyone in society is paramount. At the same time, I would hope that junior doctors did not feel the need to take this action. As I say, in other areas relating to Agenda for Change we have reached a good outcome. We sat down with the BMA junior doctors committee hoping to have the same constructive conversations around settlements that we had already reached, but unfortunately that was not forthcoming. So my main response to concerns in that space is this: please do not strike. Please sit down with us again and engage constructively.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Markham (Con)]

Like all noble Lords, I absolutely agree that Parliament has to have every opportunity to fully assess, discuss, debate and scrutinise the plans. As noble Lords know, I cannot say when the report will be released, so I cannot say with all honesty whether it will be over the Recess or afterwards. I can only repeat the words “soon” and “shortly”, and say that there is not a definite plan to announce it over the Recess. What we fundamentally agree on is that these plans are being produced with stakeholders and a lot of consultation, and they will absolutely be subject to a lot of scrutiny, as we would expect. I expect to answer on the plans in this House, as I expect my ministerial colleagues in the other place to have to do as well.

[Baroness Thornhill (LD)]

My Lords, I rather cheekily snuck two questions in, and the Minister did not give me an answer to the first one, which in many ways is very important. Will the Government look at and support those trusts that risk going into deficit because of inflationary pressures?

[Lord Markham (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness for reminding me of that. I will need to confirm it but my guess is that, although trust are having to pay more for consultants to cover positions, unfortunately a lot of junior doctors will not turn up and so there will not be the same level of pay because there are far fewer consultants than there are positions to cover. I wish there was not that problem, candidly. I think we all wish there were enough consultants to cover the exact number of junior doctors. My hunch is that, because of that, the wage will end up being a bit less. I will check if I am wrong, though, and correct it.