Patrick Finucane

Debate between Lord Maginnis of Drumglass and Lord Shutt of Greetland

Wednesday 12th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord King, for his contribution and pay tribute to his time in service in Northern Ireland. He rightly points out the 22 years and the fact that he was in post at that time. I am grateful for his supportive comments and make the point that time and delay are features that we have to think very seriously about. Twenty-two and a half years have gone and yet the report that we are suggesting and which Sir Desmond has been appointed to produce will be achieved within 15 months. Fifteen months is a small period when we think of the 22 and a half years that have gone before.

[Lord Maginnis of Drumglass]

My Lords, I want to make it very clear first that I condemn every killing that occurred in Northern Ireland and I spent 12 years of my life ensuring that both loyalist and republican killers were brought to justice. That is my justification for saying that, while I thank the Minister for bringing the Statement here, I totally disagree with and resent the term “collusion”. Can you imagine what it is like to live 24/7 in a situation where people are being murdered, and people are talking about this in cars, in homes, in pubs, in clubs and in the workplace because they are struggling to survive the violence that we had to endure. If that is collusion, then collusion took place, but my experience over all those years, working with police and the regular Army and in command of members of the Ulster Defence Regiment, was that there was no organised collusion, and I resent that term deeply.

Let me further say that there are so many victims, and victims who are close to me: Harold Sinnamon, the brother of my assistant teacher in the school where I was principal; the Dobson brothers, whom I went to school with, two people who were not involved with anything, shot in their business office; George Shaw, who contributed to his community, who took me to my first scout camp; Eric Shields, whom I worked and played rugby with and who was not a member of my party but of the Alliance Party; all these people. Was there collusion there? Are they even considered?

In finality, I was sued by the Finucane family for saying that they were an IRA family. That is what they were, an IRA family. They sued me. When they were forced by the courts to put up or shut up, they withdrew their case against me and paid my costs. Why did that happen? Let us look at the whole picture with 40, 30 or 20 years of hindsight, at what those of us who lived through the Troubles had to endure, and see whether it is prejudiced.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Maginnis, for his contribution. This Statement today is about Pat Finucane. It is not about anything else. The apology has been given because of collusion. The noble Lord, Lord Stevens, made that clear in 1999; Judge Cory made it clear in 2004. Yet we were at the point where this was not a resolved issue and there was a question about an inquiry and so forth. The noble Lord has heard the reasoning—

[Lord Maginnis of Drumglass]

Not good enough.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

—as to the way forward. Sir Desmond de Silva will have the opportunity to go through paper after paper and to produce a report. That may well be the time for the noble Lord to express a view. But Sir Desmond will be reporting on what the noble Lord, Lord Stevens, and Judge Cory have already indicated about collusion.

Northern Ireland Assembly (Elections) (Amendment) Order 2010

Debate between Lord Maginnis of Drumglass and Lord Shutt of Greetland

Wednesday 24th November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Maginnis of Drumglass]

My Lords, first, I thank the Minister for the clarity with which he explained the order in front of us. It is, I suppose, not the thing to do, but I am going to spoil the party to some extent because, in reality, I cannot say that I welcome the patch over the wound that is being proposed today.

Northern Ireland has had an opportunity to reform local government. I believe that people have gone the wrong way about it because they inherited an idea that was intended to be implemented if we did not reach an agreement on an Assembly. We were going to have five—or was it seven?—supercouncils. We now have this wonderful compromise where we are to have 11 sub-supercouncils, as I call them. Looking at the present councils, one will find that as well as our three MEPs, our 18 MPs and our 108 MLAs, with the 12—or is it 13?—devolved departments, we also have 582 councillors. The councils have virtually no devolved powers. They have, among them, the ability to spend something like £680 million per year, yet what is their responsibility?

Waste collection and disposal are, I suppose, very much justified at every level. The figures that I quoted—three, 18, 108 and 582 elected members—are for a population of 1.77 million people and I suggest that, for that size of population, we certainly need a waste collection agency. I am not a great fan of agencies, but when it is practical and there is a job to be done, Northern Ireland should have a waste collection agency. This is taking away first-line responsibility for that, so what will Northern Ireland be left with? It will be left with those things that it possesses: meeting rooms, swimming pools, recreation centres, theatres and playing fields. Those do not require, as I think is the current figure, 420 civil servants or employees being paid at director level for those 1.77 million people.

A huge difficulty arose when we had the Belfast agreement. It was contrived in a way that was meant to embrace our entire community but it did not suit some extremes, so the previous Government did us the disfavour of slipping off or taking the people who carried the bulk of the work, marginalising them and—I will not say bribing; well, I might—bribing the remainder to move towards the centre. When that did not work, we had the Hillsborough meeting, where much the same thing happened.

It struck me that the noble Baroness, although I am sure that she did not mean it in this sense, was worried about how the changes that we are discussing may alter the balance in Northern Ireland. We need the balance changed. We need reality, but we are not going to get it as a result of somehow devising a means to elect another 582 local government councillors who have no statutory authority at all, or very little of it. Does anyone believe that 13 departments—I think that it is 13 now—with 14 Ministers are suddenly going to devolve responsibility to local government? The answer is, “Nay, it’s not going to happen”.

I will not be walking through the No Lobby on this today, but we have not had time to look at the knock-on effects. We are putting a plaster across a minor scratch, the way you do with little children to please them: “I’ve hurt my knee”—stick a plaster on and there is a smile on someone’s face. Well, this plaster does not bring a smile to my face. It removes real responsibility from those who should have that responsibility thrust on them and those who should yield a product through their elected position. I leave the Minister to consider the headache, as I see it—or should I say, “scratch on the knee”?—that is not helped in any manner by what is being proposed today.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords who have contributed to this debate and will endeavour to respond to the points that have been raised. The noble Baroness, Lady Royall, paid tribute to what has been going on in Northern Ireland in recent times. We are all much happier about matters there than we were some years ago. I understand the fragility that she speaks about, but these elections, certainly as all three will be on the one day, are an opportunity for a democratic moment in Northern Ireland.

My noble friend Lord Smith talked about the sophisticated electorate. There are clear advantages to having the three polls on one day. It is more convenient for voters and, indeed, in these difficult times, it will lead to financial savings because of the shared resources. There will be unique logistical challenges, but I am satisfied that the practical risk can be managed properly. I have asked officials to continue to liaise closely with the Chief Electoral Officer and the Electoral Commission to ensure the early resolution of potential problems. The commission believes, certainly at the moment, that the preparations are on track.

The Government have considered the impact of the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill on the composition of the Assembly. We will not dictate the size of the Assembly; that is for the Assembly to consider. When it has considered this issue, we have committed to legislating to give effect to its wishes regarding its size.

The noble Baroness, Lady Royall, referred to different electoral systems. If the AV Bill and the referendum are carried, it is certain that in all elections in Northern Ireland at any rate the elector will not face confusion because every ballot paper will be marked “1, 2, 3, 4” for them to mark their preferences.

The noble Lord, Lord Kilclooney, referred to his time in government in Northern Ireland and the “vote early, vote often” regimes. I think that he sees the point of having three elections on one day.

The position of the boxes will be a matter for the electoral returning officers. The ballot papers will be different colours so that there is no confusion, but it is up to the returning officers in Northern Ireland whether there is one box or three. I know from my experience that, if there are three boxes, all three will have to be emptied at once because there may well be ballot papers in the wrong box. It is important to give that proper consideration, but it is a matter for the Chief Electoral Officer. It may be simpler to have the one box rather than three, but that is for him or her to decide.

The noble Lord referred to advertising. Public awareness of the forthcoming elections is a matter for the Electoral Commission. I will draw to its attention the noble Lord’s comments about the validity of advertising in local newspapers. The Chief Electoral Officer is required to publish the draft polling station scheme and place a notice in local newspapers to let electors know that it is subject to consultation. This information is also published on websites.

The decision on what languages to use in the publications will be made by the Chief Electoral Officer rather than at a district level.