Scotland Bill

Lord Maclennan of Rogart Excerpts

Wednesday 21st March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lang of Monkton]

My Lords, I intervene briefly in the debate simply because Amendment 88, tabled by my noble friend Lord Forsyth, also bears my name. I begin with an apology because I have been detained away from the House all day and indeed had not expected to be able to get back in time for this debate. Therefore, I speak with some diffidence because I have heard only half of the wind-up speech made by my noble and learned friend to the last debate.

This amendment was tabled when the United Kingdom Government were taking no clear interest in what was going on in Scotland, when the First Minister was being given a completely free run, and when there was a clear need for the Government to get a grip on this matter and represent the interests of the whole of the United Kingdom. That is what the amendment hopes to stimulate, and certainly there has been a lot of progress since then. I wish that I had heard all that my noble and learned friend was able to say this evening but, from the reaction to it, I understand that quite a lot of useful progress has been made.

What seems absolutely necessary is that whatever manoeuvring takes place involving a Section 30 order or whatever else may come along, we have to have a watertight situation in which the Scottish Executive cannot manoeuvre to break away from the commitment that we all now have to holding a referendum in Scotland, with clear wording that forces the issue on whether or not Scotland should remain part of the United Kingdom. That point has been effectively made by a number of speakers today. I particularly agree with the comments made in the last debate by the noble Lords, Lord Williamson and Lord Reid.

My reason for intervening now is to draw my noble and learned friend’s attention to what my noble friend Lord Forsyth said when he indicated that he was willing to withdraw his amendment but sought certain clear and specific assurances and undertakings. He made the case clearly and I shall not attempt to repeat it or improve on the language he used. However, I urge my noble and learned friend to respond directly, clearly and unambiguously to the request that he made.

[Lord Maclennan of Rogart]

My Lords, at the conclusion of this long debate, I thank my noble and learned friend for what he has contributed so far.

Events have moved rapidly in the past few days and have made it extraordinarily difficult for the House to keep abreast of what is going on. However, my noble and learned friend has made it clear from the beginning that the referendum which is held will have to be legal, fair and decisive. How does he intend to enable the United Kingdom Parliament to satisfy itself that the process is legal, fair and decisive and that the questions being put to the electorate are legal, fair and decisive?

There are many questions about fairness and decisiveness in particular. My noble and learned friend has gone quite far towards satisfying us that there is now a broad consensus on what is legal but, with a Section 30 order, there is some difficulty in being certain as to how fairness and decisiveness might be achieved. I recall in earlier debates about referenda an issue about the proportion of the electorate that would be required to reach a decisive conclusion. It is a matter on which people will have differences of view and it is therefore important that we know what the Government are proposing. If Scotland was to oscillate in its views, as it might, and if large numbers of people did not vote, that might not contribute to the decisiveness of the outcome. I hope that that will be taken into account.

In earlier debates we also considered who should be the electorate. There is an inherent unfairness in precluding from such a significant referendum Scots people who are working abroad with no real property owned in Scotland. It is a difficult question to resolve but we would like to at least consider that the Government have addressed the issue.

Many of these questions, no doubt, will be referred to the Electoral Commission, as is appropriate, but Parliament’s input into this is at least as important. A government agency should not have the final determination on whether or not what is being put forward is acceptable on the grounds of it being fair and decisive. I hope, consequently, that there will be an iterative discussion in Parliament over the next few months about the process and the criteria to which the Minister has attached himself. They have been supported by others but they are not necessarily as clear as they need to be if we are to decide how this process is to be concluded.

[Lord Empey]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Williamson of Horton, said that up until his contribution, with the exception of a brief intervention by the noble Lord, Lord Neill of Bladen, no voice other than a Scottish voice had been raised in the debate. I agree entirely with the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Reid of Cardowan, that the Bill and the prospect of independence for Scotland affects substantially everyone in the United Kingdom.

The noble Earl, Lord Caithness, made a point about Rockall which brought a response from the noble Lord, Lord O’Neill, who is not in his place at the moment. I remind the House that in the late 1980s or early 1990s, a would-be politician in the Irish Republic changed his name by deed poll and ended up calling himself Dublin Bay Rockall Loftus. He went to place an Irish flag on Rockall and promised that he would visit the island every year to stake his claim. That gentleman has since passed away but the anecdote illustrates the fact that others claim the island as a base. Of course, the concept of oil and natural gas also arose at that stage. The point is not quite as flippant as some people think; in fact, it could be significant.

The implications for the rest of the United Kingdom are substantial but, sadly, there has been an obsession with the personality of the First Minister in Scotland and we should get away from that. As the hymn writer said:

“Time, like an ever-rolling stream,

Bears all its sons away”.

We are thinking here of the long term, of the implications for generations and of the economic implications for the people of Scotland.

However, there are implications for others. For instance, a large part of our energy supply comes through Scotland via pipelines and interconnectors. There is the question, which we discussed last Friday, of access to airports and their status. That is a huge issue for Scotland too, because obviously connectivity is vital to the Scottish economy.

I hope that we can move the debate on to the key issue: that is, what is in the best interests of Scotland? Of course, it is its decision, but let us also take into account that there are implications for the rest of us, some of which have been mentioned. The status of the United Kingdom would be drastically changed in the event of Scotland leaving it. I tabled a Question to the Minister some time ago about what name we would give to Great Britain if Scotland was not part of it. The noble and learned Lord, with his great experience in these matters, answered by saying that he was not expecting such an event to take place. I hope that he is right. Nevertheless, these simple questions are left in the air. We have to go beyond the process and get down to the real issues. What is the economic future for the people of Scotland? What are the implications for the rest of us? I hope the debate can move on to those issues.

I strongly support the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Reid of Cardowan. When we had the referendum in Northern Ireland there was a decision by the United Kingdom to implement the results of the referendum, and that became the Northern Ireland Act 1998. Since then, Parliament has ratified a series of intergovernmental agreements that were politically negotiated. At every stage in that instance, the Irish Government, their Parliament and ours were involved. Every part of the United Kingdom had a say in the arrangements that we were permitted to enter into. That emphasises the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Reid. Yes, a decision on independence is for the people of Scotland. We all have an interest in anything other than that and should have a say in it through our representative Parliament. If that is not possible, there is another route open to us.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

I have considerable sympathy and support for what my noble friend says. I think that the noble Lord, Lord Williamson, was the first Peer to express a view on this matter who did not speak with a Scottish accent, and the noble Lord, Lord Empey, also contributed to the debate. I am certainly acutely conscious—the Government are also acutely conscious of this fact—that although a referendum on independence is a matter for the people of Scotland to decide, nevertheless that process impacts on other parts of the United Kingdom. I believe that this is a two-way process. I believe that Scotland is better off as part of the United Kingdom. I also believe that the United Kingdom is better off with Scotland being part of it. Therefore, other parts of the United Kingdom have a legitimate interest in this matter. A Section 30 order would have to come before your Lordships’ House, and indeed the House of Commons, for approval by the Parliament of the United Kingdom.

[Lord Maclennan of Rogart]

I am most grateful to my noble and learned friend for giving way. However, it would not be attractive if the Section 30 order, as a result of a process of negotiation with the Scottish Government, had been decided and then presented to Parliament. This is not a treaty for which we are seeking ratification; it is a legislative process. Although I entirely accept all the arguments that have been forward in favour of the Section 30 process, I think this United Kingdom Parliament will feel that it is representative of the country as a whole and would want to feed into the process of getting the thing right so that it is not seen as a divisive issue which we have to pull down after the event.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

There has been considerable agreement between the two Governments on the role of the Electoral Commission, which is vital. I do not believe that we would get a fair, legal and decisive referendum if we did not involve the Electoral Commission. A signal as to why I believe that we can reach an agreement is that already, since I made a Statement on 10 January, the Scottish Government have come a long way and acknowledged the position of the Electoral Commission.

I hope that I have tried to express clearly what the Government believe are the key issues on this matter, without saying—

[Lord Maclennan of Rogart]

I am grateful to my noble and learned friend. Will he leave it to the Electoral Commission to decide, in pursuance of this goal of decisiveness, that a majority of one vote would be decisive, or does he accept, particularly as regards the Cunningham amendment in the past, that Parliament ought to discuss that issue before it is put to the Electoral Commission?

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

I indicated that we are not generally disposed to supporting the idea of a threshold. My noble friend mentioned the Cunningham amendment, which related to a classic example of a referendum that many of us did not consider, at the end of the day, to be fair. Heaven forbid that we should ever find ourselves in a position whereby, after a referendum on independence, 30 years later one side or the other cries “foul”—with some justification. That is why the oversight of the Electoral Commission is very important.

The noble Lord, Lord Browne, and my noble friend Lord Forsyth raised a point about timing to which I should like to respond. I was asked what the timetable would be. We should press on with this matter very early indeed. We should be pressing for early engagement with the Scottish Government immediately after the close of their consultation. There have already been preliminary discussions between my right honourable friend the Secretary of State and the First Minister—indeed, the Prime Minister met the First Minister. I am sure that they will receive representations. If the Scottish Ministers think that independence is such a wonderful thing, why do they want a delay in getting it? This is a matter on which we should seek to make substantive and early progress to allow their referendum to conclude.

I will take one further intervention before I make my final point in response to the noble Lord, Lord Empey, and my noble friend Lord Forsyth.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Maclennan of Rogart]

My Lords, I would like to say how much I sympathise and agree with the speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor. In the world in which we live, where there is great mobility, residence is not a true test of connection. It is much the easiest way to determine the outcome of a referendum but it is not necessarily going to reflect the views of those who care for Scotland and sense that they belong to it. In my former constituency, Caithness and Sutherland, because there is not a substantial amount of employment in the area, many local people go all over the world to use the skills that they cannot exercise in Scotland. But there is no doubt that they go back when they have completed their jobs, and if they have earned a lot of money, they go back earlier. That is a quite a common occurrence.

I could also talk about my siblings, all of whom feel very strongly that they are Scottish, but for various reasons work in different places. My younger brother works in Glasgow and clearly would be entitled to a vote. My middle brother works all around Britain but returns to Scotland whenever he is free to take a holiday. My sister has worked in Scotland, but she is widowed and now spends part of the time on her own in Greece. However, she still identifies herself strongly with Scotland.

What we are looking for is a referendum that actually reflects the views of those who consider themselves to be Scottish, but it is a difficult issue. I do not think we want just to snap up the easiest decision. I commend the suggestions made by the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, and my noble friend Lord Selsdon for some clever consideration. If this is left to the Electoral Commission, I hope that it will not simply take the easy way out.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton]

My Lords, I have already had my say on the issue of different referendums quite extensively and there are only two aspects of our debate on these amendments that I have not expressed a view on, so I shall concentrate my remarks on them. First, I turn to the role of the Electoral Commission. A number of possible roles for the Electoral Commission are reflected in the amendments that have been proposed by noble Lords. It seems to me that the role of the Electoral Commission in relation to referendums is now settled. We had two referendums in 2011 and the Electoral Commission played a role in respect of them both which your Lordships’ House seemed well satisfied with. I have heard no criticism of its role in terms of supervision.

It played a specific role in testing what has become known as the intelligibility of any proposed referendum question in relation to both of the 2011 referendums. I understand that the commission indicated in its response to the Government’s consultation that it does not have the legal power to play that role in relation to the proposed referendum on Scottish independence and it has asked the Government to consider, as indeed have other consultees, using this Bill to give it that power so that it can get on with testing the intelligibility of the proposed questions. Of course, it could take all the questions that have been proposed in amendments and test their intelligibility on Scottish voters, focus groups and others. The commission is willing to do that job and I think that the Government should consider amending the Bill on Report to give it that power.

Otherwise, much as the proposals in the amendments before us are attractive and beguiling, I think that we should ask the Electoral Commission to play exactly the same role it has played in previous referendums, particularly the two which were conducted under legislation passed in this House and in the other place for the referendums held in 2011. There was endless debate about its role and agreement was reached before it set off on its work.

I say this for a very good reason: if we want the process that determines how the referendum will be conducted to be seen as legal, fair and decisive—and we expect now that that will be either in the context of a Section 30 order and the preparation for it, or some other option should the Section 30 order not be consented to—we have to avoid creating special processes or, dare I say, a special franchise for the election. The arguments of those who construct emotional, historical or family reasons for everyone who has an interest in the future of Scotland to be included in a franchise are very interesting. If we were to be all-inclusive we could find a way of doing so, but that would leave us open to the accusation that we are creating a special franchise in order to influence the outcome.

If the referendum is to be seen as legal, fair and decisive we should look to a pre-existing franchise, which is what the consultation did. It referred to the two pre-existing franchises in Scotland—the one for the United Kingdom Parliament and the other for the Scottish Parliament and for Scottish local government—and asked for opinions on which of the two those who responded to the consultation preferred. I am content with either of them but I veer towards the one for the Scottish Parliament. However, we can have that debate in the future when we come to look at the matter in the context of a decision, rather than in the context of a proposal, which is where we are at present.

With all due respect to my noble friend Lady Taylor, I know of the difficulties we had not only in persuading members of the Armed Forces to register but in facilitating that registration so that they could vote. I have great sympathy for people, particularly those in the Armed Forces, who are ordered to be somewhere rather than making the choice and thus being denied the franchise. We ought to look more generally at that issue to see whether we can resolve it and make it easier for members of our Armed Forces to exercise their vote. However, I resist the temptation to do that for this particular exercise for the reason I have articulated.