Assisted Dying Bill [HL]

Lord Mackay of Clashfern Excerpts

Friday 18th July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern (Con)]

My Lords, I am deeply opposed to the Bill but strongly in favour of it being afforded a Second Reading so that we may have the opportunity to discuss the many vitally important issues that it raises. After such discussion, there will then be an opportunity to take a vote on whether it should pass this House.

The Bill is named the Assisted Dying Bill, but the only part of our existing law that it seeks to amend is Section 2 of the Suicide Act 1961. Its only subject matter is assisted suicide. Dying is a much wider topic than suicide. Why does the title not correspond to that narrower subject matter? Section 2 of the Suicide Act is an important protection for the vulnerable. We may feel strong today and may be able to weigh up issues with which we may be confronted. However, the devastating effect of serious illness can speedily make us vulnerable, so that although still possessed of mental capacity we become much more susceptible to influence than when in health.

We have presently in place a framework for the operation of Section 2. The section states guidelines for the institution of prosecution which were put in place after wide public consultation and which of course are subject to amendment as circumstances change. The DPP told the commission of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, that the law was working well in practice. I know that the Supreme Court has taken a different view of that matter; that is for your Lordships to judge.

The Bill proposes that assistance to suicide will be made lawful within six months, reasonably estimated, of death. What is the principle that gives such an importance to six months? Why should a course of action that may attract a prison sentence suddenly become lawful because a person is thought to be within six months of death? If the Bill becomes law, will the DPP’s guidelines have to recognise this landmark and put cases outside this boundary beyond their reach?

If the Bill becomes law, a person within six months of death will face the agonising choice of deciding to seek assisted suicide or awaiting the natural ending of his or her life. Presumably, the attending doctor will have to advise the patient of the option of assisted suicide, which will be open up to within a short time of death. The evidence from Oregon suggests that it is very difficult for a patient to reach a concluded view on this matter. The noble and learned Lord referred to the fact that a number of people who declared a settled intention to take their own lives in fact did not use what was provided and died naturally. Is it compassionate to introduce a dying person to a regime that requires such strenuous decision-making?

The Bill is strongly promoted by an organisation called Dignity in Dying, which was formerly called the Voluntary Euthanasia Society. I have seen a number of people die with dignity who did not commit suicide, assisted or otherwise. The suggestion seems to be implied that assisted suicide will lead inevitably to a dignified, comfortable and speedy death. Can this suggestion be justified? I have seen some evidence that it is not at all certain that this will be the outcome. If that is correct, will the attending doctor be obliged to tell the patient this prior to the patient proceeding to decide on this new choice that the Bill will give?

I thank the noble and learned Lord for his clear exposition of his Bill, which I found very helpful indeed.

Divorce (Financial Provision) Bill [HL]

Lord Mackay of Clashfern Excerpts

Friday 27th June 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern (Con)]

My Lords, I strongly support the Second Reading of the Bill. I am delighted to see my noble friend Lord McNally back with us today, with his expertise on this subject.

There is no question that divorce, or the break-up of a civil partnership, produces a great deal of difficulty for both parties. In the case of divorce where there are children of the marriage, it is a terrific burden on the children. Usually the breakdown is preceded by difficult times for the children as well as for the adults, and the longer the argument lasts after the initial breakdown, the greater the damage that is done to the children as well as to the two participants in the original union.

There is a great deal to be said for judicial discretion, fitting for every single case, according to the decision of the particular judge. But I strongly take the view that there should be a clear framework that people who do not need to go to a judge will be able to operate for themselves. In my view, the proposals that the noble Baroness has put forward in her Private Member’s Bill are very suitable for that purpose. They give a framework to separating couples for what should happen in relation to the issues that are likely to divide them. Of course, the Bill does not deal with questions of care and custody of the children and so on, but it does deal with the essential area of the division of assets, with provision after the separation or divorce for other kinds of maintenance.

I strongly submit to your Lordships that the matters that the Bill deals with are all a good way forward. It is true that the Law Commission has this in hand, but—I was a member of the Scottish Law Commission for some time—the Law Commission’s way of working is not always conducive to speedy results. Thoroughness often leads to that difficulty. I agree with the noble Baroness that we really cannot wait for perfection; we can have a reasonable arrangement now which people who are in this situation can look to and on which they can build to frame their own settlement.

I have always had difficulty in seeing why prenuptial and post-nuptial contracts are thought not to be binding. After all, the atmosphere before the marriage is usually the best atmosphere possible for reaching agreement. If agreement is reached then surely there is a lot to be said for giving effect to it. Why should subsequent changes make a big difference? Now, of course, there are agreements and agreements, and various kinds of undue influence can arise, but these are not at the essence of the matter. If the agreement is not vulnerable to that kind of attack, I cannot see why it should not bind the parties when the issue has arisen for which the agreement provides.

As the noble Baroness said, many of the other provisions in the Bill have operated in Scotland for quite a number of years. While I cannot always say that what is good for Scotland is necessarily the best for the other parts of the United Kingdom, on the whole that is a reasonable proposition. That the arrangement has gone forward there without much litigation suggests to me that it is acceptable to ordinary people who find themselves in this situation. Of course, the huge assets of some splitting partners are such that any kind of general scheme probably would not work, but so far as the vast majority of people are concerned, it seems to me that it would work, and the sooner it is put in place, the better.

An attempt was made towards the end of consideration of my Family Law Bill in 1996 to deal with this matter, but unfortunately there were so many other items of contention in that excellent Bill that it was rather difficult to deal with everything. Anyhow, the opportunity is here now and, for my part, I strongly urge this House to take it.

Senior Judiciary: Women

Lord Mackay of Clashfern Excerpts

Tuesday 1st April 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Faulks]

I agree with the noble Lord that the primary responsibility is for the professions: the Bar Standards Board and the Solicitors Regulation Authority. The question of legal aid, we submit, is not the right instrument in order to encourage diversity. The provision of legal aid depends upon trying to target those most in need of legal aid in accordance with the available budget.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern (Con)]

My Lords, how many women have applied over the past 10 years for senior judicial appointments—that is to say, the Appellate Committee of the House of Lords, the Supreme Court and the heads of division—and how many were appointed?

[Lord Faulks]

My Lords, currently we do not disclose details of the number of applicants for the Supreme Court or the heads of division. There is a very limited pool from which applications can be made, and therefore it is thought that the publication of this information could lead to speculation about the identity of candidates and possibly discourage applicants. I can say, however, that in the High Court 81 applications were received in 2013 of which 17% were appointed.

Children and Families Bill

Lord Mackay of Clashfern Excerpts

Monday 21st October 2013 Grand Committee

[The Lord Bishop of Chester]

My Lords, at the risk of lowering the tone of this extraordinarily learned exchange, in the church we face a similar issue when trying to discern when someone poses a potential risk but nothing can be proved. It is a difficult line to establish. In the drafting of this amendment, my eye has been caught by the juxtaposition of the words “likely” and “possible”. I wonder whether there is a better way of phrasing it. The noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, used the word “might” at one point, but interestingly then corrected herself and said “was likely to”. There is a real difference between someone being assessed as “might” be a threat and “is likely to” be a threat. I think that I come down on the side of the noble and learned Baroness. However, it is good to know that the lawyers have only two views in these situations.

If this comes back, I hope that we will be able to look at the phraseology. To deduce that something is “likely” from a certain level of possibility seems to carry a stigma that we should not attach unless we really have to do so.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern (Con)]

My Lords, I had the responsibility of producing Clause 31 as it was, now Section 31, of the 1989 Act. It is extremely important and, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, has said, it has stood the test of time. It is important because it marks a threshold. That does not mean that it is an introduction or a preliminary, it means that it determines whether or not the court has the power to remove a child from the natural situation in which he or she is living. It is vital, on the one hand, where there is harm to the child, that the public authority, in this case the local authority, should be able to step in. However, it is equally important that the local authority should not be able to step in where the facts required for the threshold have not been demonstrated. It is that sort of position that the threshold occupies. It is not a question of having to do this in order to go on to welfare. It is that if the threshold is not satisfied, the court cannot remove the child from its natural parents.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Lloyd of Berwick]

Neither the noble and learned Lord nor I were Family Division judges, but another Family Division judge said that the type of case where it is not possible to tell on the evidence whether it is the mother or the father, but it is clearly one or the other, occurs very frequently. That is the kind of case that the amendment deals with.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

The noble and learned Baroness, Lady Hale, made it perfectly plain that the case that was set up for the Supreme Court was a very special case that she certainly would not expect. She has vast experience of these matters, as has Lord Wilson. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, said that I was not a Family Division judge. I certainly was not, but in the Court of Session in Scotland I had family cases. That was a very long time ago but some of the experience still stays at me.

[Lord Storey (LD)]

My Lords, I was not going to speak to this amendment. I have followed the debate with great interest. I am probably out of my depth in this discussion. I want to look at it from a different point of view.

I have heard about “likely”, “possible” and “thresholds”. I am always concerned about the protection and well-being of the child. In recent years we have seen children who have been physically and mentally abused at home, and no one has been able to help them. They have seen the abuse but they have not been able to go and do anything about it. Recently, there was a little boy who was emaciated; he was scrabbling around for food in the gutter and was allowed to be ill treated by his parents. If this discussion means that a social worker can knock on the door, get into the house and provide welfare and, presumably, safety for the child—not necessarily taking the child away—then that must be the right thing to do. It must not always be about a legal interpretation or a legal battle between two sides. We must always focus on what is the best for an individual child. Recently society has let those children down. We have to remember the case of Baby P to see where that happened.

Defamation Bill

Lord Mackay of Clashfern Excerpts

Tuesday 23rd April 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lester of Herne Hill]

My Lords, first I would say that we often refer to Fox’s Libel Act. I hope that when this Bill becomes law it will be referred to as Lord McNally’s Libel Act, because he above all has had the energy to drive it forward. He said at one stage that he would not allow the Bill to be overwhelmed by what he called the tsunami of Leveson. The reason why I strongly support Motion A is because it provides a way of avoiding being overwhelmed by the tsunami of Leveson. It removes what I consider to be unnecessary hostage-taking in some amendments to the Defamation Bill. It has now been freed in the Commons, and therefore I strongly support it. I have some difficulty with the reason, in a sense, because it says that,

“the draft Royal Charter … and … the Crime and Courts Bill and the Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill will be sufficient to implement the recommendations in Lord Justice Leveson’s report”.

I think that is completely true. Whether Lord Justice Leveson’s report will eventually pass muster is quite another question, but that is not to be debated now.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

My Lords, I am delighted to welcome this situation, and to see the Defamation Bill back on its ordinary course. I do not entirely agree with all that the noble Lord, Lord Lester of Herne Hill, has said about the amendments that were passed by this House, but now they are certainly unnecessary and I am delighted that the Defamation Bill can proceed.

Motion A agreed.

Legal Services Commission

Lord Mackay of Clashfern Excerpts

Tuesday 29th January 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

The CAB at the Royal Courts of Justice is able to apply for legal aid contracts in the normal way for the part of its work that is directly legal aid work. As regards broader CAB work, the Government have carried out a number of initiatives to provide funding while voluntary organisations make the transition to a much more difficult economic climate. I very much appreciate the record and work of the Royal Courts of Justice CAB in providing legal advice to individuals. However, I can only say to the House—as I have done frequently as we have gone through this exercise—that we are concentrating our resources on the sharp-end providers and will continue to do so.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

My Lords, does my noble friend know of any organisation that provides legal advice more cost-effectively than these bodies do? Has the Legal Services Commission worked out what the effect would be in respect of their former clients if the funding were withdrawn from them?

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, again, I emphasise that the RCJ CAB was able to apply to the Advice Services Transition Fund and this has helped it to continue. How many times can I say this? I look at a budget each day and I see that hard decisions have to be made. Hard decisions are being made by charities and we have tried to give them help in the transition. Quite simply, the days when large amounts of government funds were available for these bodies are over and we all have to face that fact.

Crime and Courts Bill [HL]

Lord Mackay of Clashfern Excerpts

Monday 10th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, we need to be a little careful about adhering to the rules of Report.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

My Lords, the noble Baroness has referred to something that happened about 20 years ago in relation to experiments in Scotland. As she said, judges there were able to make arrangements for televising trials without any change in the statute law because there was no statute restricting that possibility. A considerable number of cases were televised under that arrangement. The television authorities put together a programme because, interested though they were in Scotland, it was nothing in comparison with the interest they had in proceedings in England, for reasons which perhaps an 18th-century Scottish judge might have speculated about. Anyway, that was the fact.

Crime and Courts Bill [HL]

Lord Mackay of Clashfern Excerpts

Tuesday 4th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

No: it is not prescriptive and we would test and think very carefully about how it would be approached. Some of the points that have been made this afternoon will be taken into account in seeing how this will apply. I reject the idea that this is a gesture without substance, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, suggested. The noble Lord, Lord Pannick, quoted the Constitution Committee’s findings which bear repeating,

“as the minimum change necessary. For the number of women within the judiciary to increase significantly, there needs to be a commitment to flexible working and the taking of career breaks which we believe is currently lacking”.

Salaried part-time working has been in place in the courts below the High Court and tribunals for a number of years and it is important that we do not allow a known glass ceiling to remain in place preventing part-time judicial office holders from progressing further up the judicial career ladder. These provisions do not mandate that there must be an office holder who works part-time in either the Supreme Court or Court of Appeal; instead they remove any impediment that would prevent eligible candidates who work flexibly in the lower courts from applying for appointments to those courts.

There would be something problematic in a situation whereby the most meritorious candidate for the Court of Appeal or the Supreme Court was not able to accept an offer of appointment simply because we could not accommodate part-time working. In the 21st century that would be hugely embarrassing and, quite frankly, wholly at odds with the change in culture we are all seeking as the key driver towards a more diverse judiciary.

Some have argued that the work of these higher courts naturally precludes the ability of judges to work flexibly. It has been suggested that flexible working would disrupt the processes of the court and make life difficult for listing officers. The Lord Chancellor is not persuaded by this argument. The Lord Chief Justice was questioned on this very issue when he gave evidence before the Constitution Committee. He did not see any problems with organising sitting patterns in order to accommodate judges with caring responsibilities.

The Government’s consultation on judicial appointments and diversity focused on flexible working in the High Court and the Court of Appeal. The proposals received near unanimous support. However, a number of key stakeholders also highlighted in their responses that extending the principle of flexible working to the Supreme Court would demonstrate our commitment to improving diversity to those considering applying and we have therefore extended our proposals accordingly to include the Supreme Court.

Given the strong support for the provisions within the House and beyond I invite the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, to withdraw his amendment. However, if he is minded to test the opinion of the House, I urge noble Lords not to support the amendment.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

For clarification, who would decide the nature of the appointment when a vacancy arises in, say, the Supreme Court? Would it be for the president of the Supreme Court to say, “I will take two part-time judges who will each sit half-time”, or would it be somebody else who would decide? It is a practical matter. I can see the arguments about it all and I see the general view in this House, but I would like to know how it would work in that sense; who would have the responsibility, ultimately, of saying what would be the pattern in a particular court. Is it the president of that court or somebody else?

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, as far as I understand, the process of appointment would be exactly as it is now. If, in the process of discussing a candidate for the Supreme Court, it became obvious that there was a candidate who would require flexibility in order to take up the appointment, that would be taken into account. But there is no question of the president of the Supreme Court, or anybody else, being ordered to take a part-time member because of this provision. It is there to give what it is hoped will be encouragement to those who have responsibilities outside their judicial responsibilities, so that they do not find that a bar to progress, but there is no special process of selection envisaged in this.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Deben]

My Lords, it would be a great mistake to do this if we did not have to. The problem is that we have to, because the present situation is not acceptable. No business could be run on this basis. You would have shareholders, even of the most reactionary kind, asking how on earth it was possible to run a major business in which there was one woman, on the basis that you had to have one. I very much appreciate the words that have just been said.

As I said on a previous occasion, if we did not need it, we would not have to do it but because we need it, we have to do it. I know that that sounds odd, but it seems the only answer to the Government’s argument so far, which I do not understand. I do not understand why it is sensible to do this at some points but not at others. That does not seem very sensible either. Surely it has always been best to do it at the top first, then all the way down. You do not do it at the bottom, and then hope it goes up. It is like having girls come into a boys’ school. It is a very odd system but when you want to open up a school you start at the bottom and the number of girls gradually goes up, until you have a mixed school at the top. I say that as the father of four children, two boys and two girls, none of whom went to mixed schools, but I know how they work and that is how you do it.

However, that does not mean that when you are dealing with the law you set a very good example by suggesting that it is not the same at every level. I am interested only in why that should be the case. I have listened to the Government’s arguments and no doubt if I have to listen again, I may be persuaded. Up to now, however, I am missing the logic. I would like to see a logical reason why this proposal should not be there, or why the other bits that are there should not be removed. That is the alternative: if we do not need this, why do we have the bits that we have?

I will say one last word about the addition to the Bill. The noble Baroness made a very good point about how long this is. There are many things in the law that could be removed to make room for this, and I can give a long list of them. For example, there is a part that makes it illegal for Roman Catholic churches to ring a bell. That is much longer than this bit; we could take that out and put this in quite happily. If, therefore, there is a question of overburdening, I can think of a series of overburdens that can be removed—so that argument does not work. I ask the Government to understand that by not doing this, a signal is being made. By doing it, a signal would also be made. I do not understand why they want to make the wrong signal.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

My Lords, I had some experience of trying to push this agenda forward rather a long time ago but I wonder about, for example, creating a duty on the present Lord Chancellor to do this. What does this amount to? I have a feeling that the argument that has been presented suggests that you should make the duty incumbent on all the judiciary at all levels, so that they welcome diversity. That is my answer to the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of The Shaws. There is a limit to what the Lord Chancellor can do to change the culture now, with his present powers. There is also some question as to what the Lord Chief Justice can do, though he can be welcoming and so on. The logic of it is for the whole judiciary to be required to welcome diversity and all the benefits that it brings.

[Lord Beecham]

My Lords, I am fascinated, not to say a little distracted, by the zoological references to pregnant snails. I am not quite sure how one could tell, unless one was another snail. Perhaps I ought to address myself to the amendments rather than to this curious analogy.

I certainly support the thrust of the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick. Amendment 86DA, which is in my name, sets out a process; I should indicate to the noble Lord that perhaps the drafting is not quite as it should be. However, subsection (4) in my proposed new section 64A, which states:

“These duties shall continue for five years, but may be extended for five year terms by order”,

relates to its subsection (3) on the question of annual reports, rather than the principal objectives of that amendment, which are set out in subsections (1) and (2).

Several of your Lordships have pointed out the importance of making progress in this critical area. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, suggests that the duty should be spread wider, but it is difficult to envisage a duty on the holder of a judicial office to promote diversity in that capacity. It is surely a matter for those with greater responsibility at the top of the pyramid, both politically and judicially—the Lord Chancellor and the Lord Chief Justice, in addition to the commission—to have that duty. It is presumably easier to hold them to account in a less informal way than it would be to hold the whole judiciary to account.

I hope that the Government will accede to the arguments made by noble Lords and noble Baronesses. This is not a dramatic amendment, but it underpins the process that your Lordships have clearly adopted and wish to see implemented. It is a matter on which I should have thought the Government could concede without any kind of embarrassment because it carries out effectively the thrust of the policy on which the majority of the House are clearly agreed. I therefore hope that the Minister can agree to that or, at the very least, give it some further thought and come back at Third Reading. It would be better not to have to vote on this matter, given that there is a great deal of common ground. I am looking to the noble Lord to be as co- operative on this occasion as I was on a previous occasion.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Pannick]

I thank the Minister for reverting to the important Amendments 83, 84 and 85. As the noble Lord mentioned, your Lordships’ Constitution Committee was critical of the proposal in the Bill for the Lord Chancellor to sit as a member of the appointments committee appointing the Lord Chief Justice and the President of the Supreme Court. The Minister's advocacy in Committee was outstanding but, as he will know, sometimes the best advocacy is in support of a completely hopeless cause. I genuinely thank the Minister and the Lord Chancellor for listening on this important subject. It is a matter of constitutional concern. I thank them for bringing forward amendments to the Bill in accordance with the recommendations of your Lordships’ Constitution Committee.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

I wonder whether it is worth mentioning that, of course, the Supreme Court is of interest in jurisdictions other than those in which the Lord Chancellor has authority now, and there may be a question about the balance of that. Admittedly, other jurisdictions have representation on the selection committee, but it may be worth while keeping in place that balance.

[Lord Beecham]

My Lords, I endorse everything that the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, said, as a surrogate for my noble and learned friend Lord Falconer. Had he been here I am sure that he would have enthusiastically congratulated the Government on their change of heart. Again, I rather tiresomely congratulate the Minister on accepting the wisdom of the House as previously expressed. We welcome this change and reversion to what is essentially the current situation. We look forward to more of the same as we go through the Bill.

Civil Legal Aid (Merits Criteria) Regulations 2012

Lord Mackay of Clashfern Excerpts

Monday 3rd December 2012 Lords Chamber

I have to accept that in the vast majority of cases legal aid will no longer be available after 1 April. However, many of the minority of cases that involve points of law are brought by disabled appellants and it has got to be common sense, and just, that they should receive some—some—legal advice. How can they be expected to know or understand the legal points that arise in their case? The Government agreed with that proposition in April; for some reason they do not now. Surely they should think again, and that is what I am asking them to do. In due course I will seek to move my amendment.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

My Lords, I will speak in relation to both these matters; not in order of importance but in the order in which they were taken, so I will speak first to the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick.

As I understand it, what the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, finds difficult is Regulation 53(b), which requires that the director whose job it is to decide such matters has to be satisfied that,

“the individual has exhausted all administrative appeals and other alternative procedures”,

which are available to challenge the act, omission or other matter,

“before bringing a public law claim”.

That is not just judicial review; it is quite a wide area of law, including habeas corpus jurisdiction, as the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, mentioned. However, this is not the whole of this matter. It is interesting that it is Regulation 53, because I think that the original rule of the Supreme Court that brought in judicial review was Order 53. It is a strange coincidence, but not particularly important. What is important is that, apart from what I have just read, the beginning of Regulation 53 requires that,

“the Director must be satisfied that the criteria in regulation 39 (standard criteria for determinations for legal representation) are met”.

So Regulation 39 has to be met before you come to this regulation at all.

The noble Lord, Lord Pannick, briefly referred to Regulation 39. It includes this provision at sub-paragraph (d), requiring that,

“the individual has exhausted all reasonable alternatives to bringing proceedings including any complaints system, ombudsman scheme or other form of alternative dispute resolution”.

I understood my noble friend Lord McNally to suggest that that only applied to a limited number of alternative procedures—but it says “all reasonable alternatives”. I cannot see how it is possible to have Regulation 39, with that provision in it, and Regulation 53(b), which requires that that regulation is accepted, and also adds this. The two seem to be contradictory. It is not just the point that the word “reasonable” is used in Regulation 39; it is incorporated into Regulation 53 at the beginning. It simply does not make sense. That is the short and long of it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Bach]

With the greatest of diffidence, I rise to try to explain the situation as I see it. The respect I have for the noble and learned Lord is well known. My understanding is that what the Government propose comes at the end of the First-tier Tribunal hearing. Therefore, leading up to the First-tier Tribunal, whether or not on a point of law, there would be no advice at all to the appellant. During the tribunal hearing there would be no advice to the appellant. Only if the appellant after the event decides to ask for facts and reasons and, after that, puts in a notice of appeal, will there be the slightest chance that he might get legal aid at that stage.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

With great respect, the noble Lord’s own explanation shows that what happens is that the First-tier Tribunal makes a decision and that is one in a very large number of decisions. If somebody wants to make a representation against that decision, asking for a review, the tribunal can invite representations at that stage; if it does, the applicant, as long as he was the original appellant, can get legal aid. If, on the other hand, the tribunal decides, “We do not want representations, we know that we are right”, it goes ahead with the review and comes back to the same decision; because an application has not been opened with right of representations at that stage, the second branch of the regulation gives legal aid. That is how I understood it but I may be wrong.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Beecham]

My noble friend is to be congratulated not only on bringing this amendment to the House but also on being elected Peer of the Year. At this rate he may turn into the Hilary Mantel of your Lordships’ House; she of course has won her second Man Booker prize, and it may be that next year my noble friend is awarded with his accolade again. I will speak briefly to his amendment before turning to that of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick.

The Opposition entirely support the case made by my noble friend, particularly because, embedded in the Government’s approach and reflected to some degree in today’s debate, there is some confusion between points of law and errors of law for the purpose of these regulations. The Citizens Advice briefing helpfully makes this distinction clear. It says:

“Furthermore in devising this whole policy Government appears to be confusing ‘points of law’ with ‘errors of law’. Whilst the majority of first tier welfare benefit appeals turn on ‘points of fact’ such as financial and other circumstances … many cases do raise significant legal issues over statutory interpretation (ie social security regulations), legal tests for disability”—

as referred to by the noble Baroness, Lady Doocey—

“or disputed application of … precedents etc. The tribunal making an error of law which may be subject to a right of appeal is a much narrower concept”.

We have to bear that distinction in mind when weighing the strength of the case made by my noble friend. It will be the very exceptional case, as the noble Baroness pointed out, that may qualify for that description of an error in law, which of course has to be self-certified by the tribunal itself—a peculiar process, one might think. We are certainly not in the position that the Minister mentioned in the debate in the House of Commons when he talked about 440,000 cases. That number is inconceivably large and, in my view, can be dismissed. Certainly, though, probably a good deal more than 650 cases could potentially arise if the definition were to deal with points of law. I hope that, bearing in mind the assurances given on the earlier occasion by the former Lord Chancellor, the House will support my noble friend’s amendment.

I also support the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, and supported by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, as I understand him. Indeed, there is a peculiar relationship between Regulation 53 and Regulation 39, but in my view it goes somewhat beyond the matter identified by the noble and learned Lord. In addition to the potential clash with Regulation 39(d), it strikes me that problems arise in relation to two earlier parts of that regulation, paragraphs (a) and (b). I remind noble Lords that all these matters have to be borne in mind when dealing with Regulation 53. Under Regulation 39(a) the director has to be,

“satisfied that the following criteria are met … the individual does not have access to other potential sources of funding (other than a conditional fee agreement) from which it would be reasonable to fund the case”.

That is a fairly open-ended requirement. Regulation 39(b) says that the director has to be satisfied that,

“the case is unsuitable for a conditional fee agreement”.

Suppose, though, that it was suitable for a conditional fee agreement; that of course does not necessarily mean that a conditional fee agreement is available. Suitability and availability are not the same thing. That reinforces the noble and learned Lord’s point that there is an inconsistency between Regulation 39 taken as a whole, not just in relation to Regulation 39(d), and Regulation 53. I hope that noble Lords will be convinced by that element.

There is a further matter that I need to touch on. The thrust of the Government’s proposals is to reduce the reliance on judicial review. We have to be concerned about this in view of recent pronouncements about the Government’s desire to reduce substantially the number of cases that can be advanced by that method, which is of course a principal method of holding the Executive to account. This is just one potential example, but I think that noble Lords will want to pay particular attention to it, having regard to the category of people who will be most affected by it. We should not lose sight of the fact that this may be part of a process of restricting access to judicial review that will go well beyond this particular category. In my submission, that is an additional reason for noble Lords to support the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

My Lords, am I right or wrong in thinking that any appellant who is unhappy with the decision of the First-tier Tribunal can ask it to review the decision?

[Lord Beecham]

Assuming that the appellant has the knowledge of that procedure, he might ask it to review its decision, but the review will amount to nothing unless the tribunal convicts itself, as it were, of an error in law. If it makes that mea culpa then under the Government’s amendment there is a potential for legal aid to be granted, but not otherwise.

Justice: Legal Advice

Lord Mackay of Clashfern Excerpts

Tuesday 27th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

I suppose that I can only give those in the voluntary sector the same advice as was given in my own department, which has had to take a 23 per cent cut in services. The reality, which it seems difficult for the Opposition to take in, is that we are all a lot poorer than we thought we were and a lot of organisations are having to reorganise to be effective. As I said, we have set aside £65 million over the next two years—and I have not even mentioned the £25 million to which I used to refer during the course of the LASPO Bill as the £65 million is new money. We appreciate the benefit of Citizens Advice and we want work with it so that it can carry on its useful work.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

My Lords, can the Minister say what is the outcome of the discussions that were being held in relation to legal advice centres—not only advice but legal advice centres, of which there is a network—as a valuable way of giving legal advice economically?

[Lord McNally]

We continue to support the concept of legal advice centres, but they too have had to make some tough decisions in these circumstances. I hope that we can retain a good network, but we have had to make tough decisions in this area.