Gambling (Licensing and Advertising) Bill

Debate between Lord Lipsey and Lord Clement-Jones

Tuesday 14th January 2014 Grand Committee

[Lord Lipsey]

As I was saying when I was rudely interrupted, I am quite pro-gambling and quite anti-FOBTs, but I would not ban them.

The third thing I wanted to say was that—and I have had good friends in and good relations with the bookmaking industry for many years—I am frankly disappointed with its reaction to the increasing social concern at the rise of FOBTs. I make no secret of the fact that I have had a number of meetings with bookmakers at which I have pressed on them the desirability of making a concession voluntarily—my preference would be to reduce the £100 limit on bets—as a sign that they are genuinely concerned about this. I know there has been a bit of flapping about with measures to deal with self-exclusion.

Overall, and it pains me to say this, I have been reminded rather of the tobacco industry in its dying days, except now we are all alert to the tactics that it used. I do not think that the bookmaking industry is helping itself, and I very much hope that even at this late stage it will come forward, more positively recognising the scale of the problem that it faces, recognising the political consensus that now stretches from David Cameron to Ed Miliband that something has to be done about it, and working positively in a way that enables a solution to be found without more conflict.

The amendment is designed—I hope—to be probing. It is a long way from clear yet that a local authority-based scheme for licensing is the only way of tackling this problem. I have a considerable concern about what happens when you have one local authority that allows, let us say, eight FOBTs per betting shop while the authority next door allows none. That will lead to a huge proliferation, beyond anything that we have seen so far, in the “Come here and fill our slots” borough and none at all in the one run by the Liberal Democrats.

This needs further looking at. Local authorities’ planning powers, which are not covered by this amendment, also need looking at in order to find a robust policy. A measure of localism has a great deal to be said for it. It is also necessary that any scheme that we eventually come up with also embodies a strong measure of statutory guidance that sets the basis of the argument.

Most of all, I hope to see the consensus that exists now in the political class and among politicians spread more widely to the bookmakers, to the betting industry and among the public. I hope to see even more concentration on methods to exclude those who abuse this form of gambling. I also hope to see a frank recognition of the reality and not just a single-minded focus on short-run profits, because if the bookmakers focus entirely on short-run profits they will find in the long run that they make much less money.

[Lord Clement-Jones]

My Lords, I am glad we are having this short debate today. It is quite interesting that this has become a topic of current debate. I followed closely the debate that took place last week in the Commons on the subject.

I notice, and indeed I regret, that the noble Baroness herself does not express any regret for the legislation that was passed in 2005. After all, it was the Labour Government who introduced these FOBTs, and now we have had the proliferation of what appear to be highly damaging and addictive gambling machines in our high streets. Prefacing remarks along those lines would have been quite useful, because they were clearly introduced by that legislation.

However, I share her concerns about these machines. Indeed, it is all very well for the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, to say what he said, but we have been warning of the dangers of these machines ever since the passing of the 2005 Act because we thought that it would lead to the proliferation of these high-stakes machines. I will come on to the level of stakes in a minute because that is one of the key issues surrounding them.

Even though there is, in a sense, a cross-party view about the impact and danger of FOBTs, there is a level of disagreement because some of us feel that the evidence is already there that they are addictive, and that something should be done in the very short term. I am not going to adumbrate all the research that is out there but it includes that from GamCare, the Salvation Army, the National Problem Gambling Clinic, the Campaign for Fairer Gambling, Professor Gerda Reith at the University of Glasgow and even the European Journal of Public Health—a series of different reports can be prayed in aid to show that these machines really are a source of problem gambling, and that the problem is rising over time.

Clearly, the evidence is disputed by the Association of British Bookmakers; I am sure that we have all had its briefing, which heavily disputes some of the points that are being made about FOBTs. The association questions the validity of the evidence put forward by the British Gambling Prevalence Survey, for instance, and so on. The Government did not have much of a choice other than to say, “Right, let’s remit this to the Responsible Gambling Strategy Board and see what comes out of that”. I very much hope that that will be conclusive on the matter and lead to further action, although probably not through this Bill because I do not believe that any of this needs primary legislation. I do not believe that it is the planning system that is essentially at fault here. We heard during the Commons debate last week that Southwark Council is employing perfectly proper legal means to restrict the further spread of FOBTs and betting shops in its borough, and that sort of remedy is open to other councils to adopt.

I do not think that it is about that side of things; a lot of this problem boils down to stakes and prizes—something that can be remedied very straightforwardly by political will through secondary legislation, through regulations and through altering the stakes. At the moment you can put in £100, which is a huge amount of money for these machines in the high street. Some of the campaigns are saying that this should be reduced to £2—I think that that is somewhat drastic—but I certainly hope that when the Responsible Gambling Strategy Board reports it will make a recommendation about the appropriate level of stake that should be the limit for these machines. That will go a long way towards making sure that they are no longer as addictive as they currently are, and will also mean that bookmakers have to think very carefully about the profitability of their premises and we do not have the kind of proliferation that we appear to be having as a result of the ability to install these FOBTs. I appreciate the subject having been raised and I share the noble Baroness’s concerns but, ultimately, I hope that quite soon we can adopt a remedy by secondary legislation that could be relatively straightforward.