European Union (Referendum) Bill

Debate between Lord Liddle and Baroness Warsi

Friday 31st January 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Liddle]

If I recollect correctly—I took an active part in that campaign—there was an assessment of the reasons for British membership, which was sent to every household.

[Baroness Warsi]

My Lords, there is a government view on membership of the European Union, which is that the UK’s interest is to be a member of a reformed European Union. There are also agreed government views on how to run a referendum, following the alternative vote and Scottish independence polls. However, there is no collective position on holding a membership referendum and hence no government view on its implications. Noble Lords can be assured that, by the time of the referendum, the official yes and no campaigns will have made their cases in some detail. Therefore, the British people will be in no doubt about the choice that they are making.

European Union (Referendum) Bill

Debate between Lord Liddle and Baroness Warsi

Friday 24th January 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Liddle (Lab)]

My Lords, on this side of the House, we regard this as a significant amendment. Given that the House has decided by an overwhelming majority that the Bill is amendable, we very much hope that the noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, will consider it favourably. It is a serious attempt on our side to improve the referendum proposal and make an independent impact assessment a vital condition before a referendum can properly proceed. We want rational, independent consideration of the costs and benefits of our EU membership and of the alternatives to it. The amendment is, we hope, a way to facilitate that rational consideration of the issues at stake.

Why is it important to look at alternatives? Those of us who have spent a lot of our lives in politics know that opinion polls do not always give a very accurate reading of what is likely to happen at a general election. You can often be miles ahead, but the result at a general election can be very different. Why is that? It is a point of key relevance to the Europe debate. It is because, in the mid-term of any Government, people are simply thinking about what they think of the Government. It is only when they get to the election that they start thinking about it as a choice between the Government of the day and the Opposition. If we are to have a sensible debate about the European Union, it is vital that people do not just see it as expressing an opinion in a poll in a TV reality show about what they think of Brussels, the Commission, the European Parliament and all the rest, where we know what the result would be, but that they think about what are the alternatives to our present EU membership. They need to be explored independently and objectively.

A recent attempt to do this was in the CBI’s report, Our Global Future. That is on the economics. The CBI came to the conclusion that no alternative option to full EU membership can combine all the benefits of EU membership with none of the costs. I shall not risk being accused of wasting the House’s time by reading out the report, but it went through in meticulous detail all the different options, such as the so-called WTO option, becoming a member of the EEA, the Swiss option, or having some kind of free trade agreement with the European Union. It went through all the options. Those options need to be explored properly. That was the point that the noble Lord, Lord Turnbull, was driving at. We cannot have a sensible discussion in a referendum on our EU membership without the Government saying what they would do if the people voted to come out, because it is only in those circumstances that people can make a proper choice. That is one of the reasons why we support this.

It is important to emphasise that this is not only a matter of economic and social costs and benefits. It is also about the rights of citizens, particularly our citizens living presently in other member states of the European Union, and how a withdrawal would affect their position. It is also about our security. The present Government have just been through a huge exercise on the JHA opt-out and have decided that it is essential to Britain’s security that we opt in to certain of these measures. They know that if we were not part of those measures, senior figures in the police force and in the intelligence services would have very serious doubts about government policy. We need to look at the whole range of issues to do with our EU membership.

This has to be done objectively and properly. If we are to have a fair debate, that is absolutely essential. We all know that large sections of the press are going to argue for Britain to withdraw. There is no fairness in the British press on this issue, where you have the Mail, the Express and the Sun, and to a lesser extent the Telegraph and the Times, united in their view against membership of the European Union. However, we also have a lot of misinformation now in social media. If we believe in democracy, it is the proper duty of the Government to ensure that the public are properly informed of all the options through a proper, independent analysis.

As my noble friends Lord Kinnock and Lord Giddens said in the earlier discussion, whether we are in the European Union or not is a fundamental choice for the future of this country. The debate about it must not be treated as some way of papering over the cracks in one of our political parties. It has to be treated as one of the most fundamental decisions that, in our lifetimes, we will ever take.

[Baroness Warsi]

My Lords, perhaps I may briefly refer back to what I said at Second Reading. I said that the Bill was not about being pro-European or anti-European but about being pro-democracy. The noble Lord raised a number of issues about the people being informed and I agree with him. One of the positions that the Government have taken in relation to the balance of competences review has been on having an independent review of each individual area, where organisations and individuals are given the opportunity to give evidence, and for those reports to be presented in an independent way so that people can see where the European Union helps and where it hinders.

Such a referendum will generate a huge amount of interest and a great deal of campaigning. I think of my own experience of campaigning during the AV referendum. It becomes apparent as the referendum date comes nearer that the campaign steps up and a huge amount of discussion takes place. Members of this House and of the other House will have the opportunity to have their say. Business will have its say, NGOs will have their say and both sides of the case will be put. I am convinced that when this referendum is eventually held, the yes campaign and the no campaign will have long and detailed campaigns which will allow the British public to hear both the case for and the case against. This is an opportunity to allow that debate and those campaigns to start, and to allow the British people to have their say. There is overwhelming evidence that a referendum is what the people of this country—

EU: Balance of Competences Review

Debate between Lord Liddle and Baroness Warsi

Thursday 9th January 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Warsi]

It is always interesting to hear the noble Lord’s views on the issue of Europe. I am sure that he was pleased that UKIP representatives had an opportunity to feed into the first set of reports. The Government fundamentally believe that we can have a better Europe and that we should have and push for further reform. It is obvious from the first set of reports that have come through in the balance of competences review that many of the issues that have been raised by the Prime Minister’s and the Government’s existing reform agenda came out as part of those reports.

[Lord Liddle (Lab)]

My Lords, following on from the noble Baroness’s talk about the need for a programme of reform to create a better Europe, can she clarify what the Government’s objective is? Is it to put together a comprehensive programme of reform which, on this side of the House, we would be happy to engage in discussion about, or is it to demand, as the noble Lord, Lord Spicer, hinted, special deals on repatriations, opt-outs and derogations, which frankly is a road to nowhere? It is likely to be a set of impossible demands which eventually leads to British exit.

[Baroness Warsi]

The Government’s position has been clear: reform is an ongoing process and we can have a better Europe. For example, one of things that came out of the balance of competences review is how different competences and different regulations were being implemented by member states. There were concerns about the UK’s gold-plating, for example, of much that was coming out of Europe. We feel that that is an ongoing process. I think that the noble Lord and noble Lords opposite will accept that there is a great democratic deficit at the moment in support for the European Union. Therefore it is not only about making the case for whether we need to be in or out of Europe but about making the case for how we can have a better Europe, renegotiating a new settlement and then going to the people and saying to them, “You have the final decision”.

UK: EU Membership

Debate between Lord Liddle and Baroness Warsi

Tuesday 7th January 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Warsi]

My Lords, I am always supportive of Brits holding leadership positions in all institutions, including EU ones. Certainly, strong female leaders from this House have made a great impact in those institutions.

[Lord Liddle (Lab)]

My Lords, does the Minister think that the Government are going about it in the right way to win friends and influence people to carry through their legitimate programme of reform for the EU? In the last month we have seen Ministers of the Crown stigmatising Bulgarians and Romanians as benefit tourists, threatening, to the great annoyance of the Polish Foreign Minister, Poles with benefit changes in the UK and attempting to blame Germany for all the horrors of the First World War. Is this the right way to go about winning friends in Europe?

[Baroness Warsi]

It is important that Ministers do what they can to make sure that the best possible outcome for Britain is achieved. I think the noble Lord would accept that the first ever cut in the EU’s seven-year budget last year and protection of the UK’s rebate were two great successes. He would also accept that changes and reforms to the common fisheries policy—again Britain putting its interests on the table but doing so in the interests of all of the European Union—are progressive steps. We can therefore show that the Government can act in the interests of the United Kingdom in a way that is also beneficial to the rest of the European Union.

Foreign Languages: European Institutions

Debate between Lord Liddle and Baroness Warsi

Tuesday 22nd October 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Warsi]

My Lords, 80 languages, 70,000 hours of training and 1,000 full and part-time students—that is the language school.

[Lord Liddle (Lab)]

Does the noble Baroness agree that we face an extremely serious situation in relation to British influence in the European Union given that the number of British staff working there has declined by a quarter in the past seven years? Are the Government serious about doing something about that as I see no mention of it in the Foreign Office report or in its statement of priorities yet it should be a top national priority? Are they just sleepwalking out of the European Union?

[Baroness Warsi]

I think the noble Lord will take great comfort from the fact that since 2010 the number of British applicants has increased by 50%.

EU: Membership

Debate between Lord Liddle and Baroness Warsi

Monday 11th February 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Warsi]

My noble friend always comes at these matters with real experience, but on this occasion I have to disagree with her. It is precisely because of the real challenges to which she refers that this is the time to ensure that we are at the forefront of forming the debate and reforming the EU to being in the best interests of this country, but also of the wider European Union.

[Lord Liddle]

My Lords, taking the noble Baroness back to the original Question, although there is sympathy among several member states with some of the themes of the Prime Minister’s speech, and although there is widespread agreement on the need for reform, surely that is seen to be reform that affects the whole of the EU. What is the position if there is no treaty that reforms the whole EU by 2017? Will the British Government then be pressing for a special renegotiation purely for Britain? Since the Prime Minister’s speech, how many member states have indicated that they might support such a special renegotiation for Britain alone?

[Baroness Warsi]

I can assure the noble Lord that we have set out on the right path. It is right for us to acknowledge, as he does, the need for reform. It is right for us to move forward with ensuring that we work out our relationship with the European Union. The balance of competences review that the Government are undertaking will lay out where we feel that the European Union helps and where it hinders.

The noble Lord asked from where support has come. Only last weekend, we saw the Prime Minister take a very front-footed, brave and national-interest position on the European budget. I could read to the noble Lord many quotes of support from around the European Union—from the Danish PM, the Swedish PM and the Finnish PM. I assure him that there is a real appetite for reform across the European Union. Those of us on this side of the House are leading that debate, but I am sure that, in due course, noble Lords opposite and, indeed, the Labour Party will also commit to that reform.

EU: UK’s National and Trade Interests

Debate between Lord Liddle and Baroness Warsi

Wednesday 16th January 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Warsi]

My noble friend raises a very important issue and these are matters that will be raised. It is important that we value our relationship with the European Union. My noble friend quite rightly raises the issue of our place in the world. On foreign policy, for example, I know that the work we did on smart sanctions against Iran’s nuclear programme, against the Burmese regime to encourage democratic reform and against the Syrian regime was possible because we worked collectively.

[Lord Liddle]

My Lords, the noble Baroness sets great store by encouraging investment into the United Kingdom from the emerging giants of Asia. Following the Prime Minister’s speech on Friday, we will face at least five years of economic uncertainty over our continued membership of the European single market. That is likely to prove a great deterrent to all forms of inward investment just at the moment when jobs and the revival of investment depend on it? Does the noble Baroness agree that in doing this the Prime Minister is not speaking for the national interest?

[Baroness Warsi]

It may well be that the noble Lord opposite has had sight of the speech and is therefore making judgments based on his opinion of what is in the speech. I await to see what will be in that speech, as do many of us in this House, and I can assure the noble Lord that this Government have done all they can to make sure that when opportunities present themselves, both within the Commonwealth and in the wider world, especially in relation to India, Brazil and China, we have very clearly laid out our store to say that Britain is open for business.

European Council: December Meeting

Debate between Lord Liddle and Baroness Warsi

Monday 3rd December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Liddle]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what are their priorities for the December meeting of the European Council.

[The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Warsi)]

My Lords, the December European Council will cover economic policy, including economic and monetary union and banking union, as well as defence enlargement and foreign policy. The UK will seek to ensure the integrity of the single market in relation to banking union and economic and monetary union. We will press for further progress on growth and work to ensure that the defence strategy reflects UK priorities. Enlargement is dependent on the December General Affairs Council.

[Lord Liddle]

I thank the noble Baroness for her Answer. Why have the British Government adopted a completely different approach to a banking union from that of a fellow euro-out, Sweden, which is run, we are told, by David Cameron’s favourite conservative European Prime Minister? Sweden has engaged with the negotiations on a banking union, whereas Britain appears to be trying to reintroduce, for the first time since the introduction of the single market, some kind of veto on financial services legislation. Does the noble Baroness think that that strategy is likely to meet with more success than it did in the negotiations on the fiscal treaty last December, or are the Government once again shouting from the sidelines to try to appease the unappeasable?

[Baroness Warsi]

The Government’s strategy on this matter is one that reflects the best interests of Britain. I am sure that noble Lords on the other side of the House agree that it is important that when the Prime Minister goes to Europe, he acts in the best interests of this country and negotiates on the basis of that strategy. The UK does not use the euro, and we have been clear that the UK will not be part of any banking union or fall under the jurisdiction of the ECB. However, that does not mean that we do not continue to push for further liberalisation of the single market.

EU: United Kingdom

Debate between Lord Liddle and Baroness Warsi

Monday 26th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Warsi]

I agree with the noble Lord, democratic legitimacy within the EU is absolutely crucial. A number of polls have shown a fall in contentment about being close to the decision-making within Europe. The noble Lord raises important points and this is why we must continue to play our role within Europe, continue to reform Europe and continue to make it relevant for today’s economies.

[Lord Liddle]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Liddle]

My Lords, all sides of this House want to see a very strong relationship with Germany and regard it as one of our leading partners in a European Union in which we want to play a leading role. However, does the Minister seriously believe that our ability to be taken seriously by Germany is enhanced by all the talk of renegotiation, looser relationships and referenda—maybe now two referenda, one before and one after the general election? When will the Government put a stop to this nonsense on their own Back Benches?

[Baroness Warsi]

My Lords, I do not believe the Government should ever step away from acting in what is Britain’s national interest. It is important that the UK sets out very clearly, with its German counterparts or any other member state within the EU, those areas on which we agree. With Germany we agree on the need for further competitiveness, the need to further the single market and the need for more free trade agreements. However, the coalition Government must also be bold and brave enough clearly and loudly to set out Britain’s national interest within the EU.