Armed Forces

Lord Liddle Excerpts

Thursday 7th September 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Liddle (Lab)]

My Lords, I pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Soames, for his excellent starting point for this debate, which many of us on this side of the House would wholly agree with in every way. I do not have the experience of military service and defence questions that many Members of this House have, but I share the admiration that he expressed for the people in our armed services. When I was a humble adviser in No. 10, working on the defence review, Charles Guthrie, Lord Guthrie of Craigiebank, took me to Banja Luka in Bosnia to look at the conditions in which our people had to work. I had tremendous admiration for that. He then insisted that I go and get on board one of Admiral West’s frigates. Somehow or other, I managed to climb up a rope ladder to get on and take a look.

It was always a struggle then, in 1997 under the Blair Government, to argue for an increased defence budget. I believed then that we had to have a strong defence budget, and I believe it even more now. But there are always arguments and many other worthy claims—that we have to spend more on overseas aid, or that we have lots of child poverty and pensioner poverty to deal with. At the present conjuncture, our problem with public spending is that we face a huge demographic challenge with increased costs from pensions, health and social care, and the existential, longer-term challenge of climate change, which we have to address and will be expensive.

I must say that, in the present situation, I find all the chatter about tax cuts rather unrealistic—let us put it like that. I believe that we must have a stronger defence budget, but it will be difficult. If there is a change of Government, it will be as difficult on our side as it has been. I remember the sessions we had in No. 10 at every public spending round on what department budgets should be, and I was the only one of the political advisers in No. 10 who fought for a higher defence budget. Fortunately, I had a single ally—the Prime Minister. I hope we can get a bigger defence budget in the years ahead, but defence has to make the case for that. It has to reform where there are obvious weaknesses. We must shake up the procurement system and get on top of those problems.

Secondly, I agree totally with the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Houghton of Richmond, that we must have realism about what we can achieve in the world. We have to balance realism and resources in a sensible way. I am a bit sceptical about the return east of Suez: is that really where Britain should be putting its efforts? Reading the recent defence White Paper, I could not understand why we were increasing the size of our nuclear arsenal. We need a minimum deterrent—I have fought unilateralism all my life in politics—but our deterrent should be as minimal in cost as it possibly can be, yet the Government were proposing an increase in expenditure.

Here is the thing I worry about the most—I know that people have a long and noble history of Anglo-American co-operation and do not like this. I look at the opinion polls in the United States, and Biden might be 1% ahead of Trump. The prospect of another Trump presidency is very real. The prospect of a party that believes that America should become isolationist and withdraw from Europe is very real. We have to get our act together with our European partners. I know that this is difficult because of Brexit but, for me, this is an absolutely key priority in the defence field, given the situation we now face. So, yes, defence has to be a priority. It will be extremely difficult to make it one, but our future in Europe depends on it.

Estonia: UK Troop Levels

Lord Liddle Excerpts

Monday 31st October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

That is a indeed a very important component of the threat that we face. My noble friend will be aware that assisting countries to deal with cyberattacks is, again, part of our contribution to our UK and NATO commitments.

[Lord Liddle (Lab)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that Britain has won a lot of credit in northern Europe by the commitment that we have made to Estonia? This is a very important part of our NATO commitment and in the modern Baltic states, in Poland and in the Nordic countries, this has been noted. Does she agree that it is not good optics for the UK to so drastically cut the level of its force commitment to Estonia? It is very positive that Sweden and Finland are joining NATO, but does she not agree that there is a risk that they may, in time, take over the lead in this area of commitment to defence?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

The intention of Sweden and Finland to join NATO is very welcome. Anything that cements the co-ordination and collaboration of countries with like-minded principles and values in the Baltic area is to be welcomed. Our future force posture in Estonia currently comprises 994 UK personnel, but it will rise to 1,020 when the battle group rotates in March. That is in addition to the enhanced details of capability that I outlined to the noble Lord, Lord Coaker.

Ukraine

Lord Liddle Excerpts

Thursday 20th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Harlech (Con)]

My Lords, I have the greatest admiration for the noble Viscount, Lord Stansgate, but I am afraid he was not here for the start of the debate. On this occasion, I have to ask him to hold his question for another time.

[Lord Liddle (Lab)]

My Lords, on this of all days it is a very good thing that we are able to express our national unity behind the Government’s stance on Ukraine. I thank the Minister for the very detailed way in which she tried to answer the questions of my noble friend Lord Coaker and the noble Baroness, Lady Smith.

I have two questions. One relates to the inevitable problem of money and the Treasury. Has the MoD concluded its discussions and negotiations with the Treasury on how the armaments that we have sent to Ukraine will be replaced and on what timescale? Do we know that our defences will not be weakened as a result of what we have done? Is there a commitment on the part of the Treasury—especially given the Statement coming up in 10 days’ time or so—to replace all the kit and armaments that have been sent there? When is that happening?

My second point is not an MoD issue. Is the noble Baroness aware of what steps have been taken across Europe with our European friends and allies, and by us, to assist the Ukrainians practically with keeping their critical infrastructure, particularly their power infrastructure, going throughout the winter? I happen to have been in Ukraine in winter and it is a pretty horrific prospect if they are unable to heat people’s homes. What practical steps have been taken to help them counter the threat from Iranian drones?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for his questions. In relation to what has been supplied and how we pay when we come to replenish it, the MoD has proceeded on the basis that it will be paid for by the Treasury. That has been a negotiated position and it is one I would expect to be obtempered and to continue.

On Ukraine’s infrastructure, I indicated to the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, some of what the UK was trying to do. As I observed earlier this week, the EU has shown commendable willingness to group together to support the endeavour, discussing with friends and allies how we best make an impact on supporting Ukraine. I reassure the noble Lord that the UK is working closely with the EU on providing Ukraine with military equipment, cyber resilience and humanitarian and economic support—not least with sanctions, energy resilience and countering Russian disinformation. There is work going on. It is perhaps a broader issue than for the MoD, and I am sure it is one that my noble friend Lord Ahmad would be very pleased to take up with the noble Lord.

France: AUKUS

Lord Liddle Excerpts

Tuesday 19th October 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for affirming the strategic importance of AUKUS, echoing what the noble Lord, Lord West, said. The tripartite collaboration has been formed for a specific purpose and change in that respect is not envisaged. But my noble friend is absolutely right to recognise that AUKUS complements and enhances other relationships in the region, such as the Quad, Five Eyes or the FPDA, and that reflects both NATO’s approach and the EU Indo-Pacific strategy.

[Lord Liddle (Lab)]

My Lords, do the Government recognise that France is not only a close neighbour but also one of the few countries in the world that shares our fundamental values and interests? I support AUKUS, but was it not a great shame that no effort was made to bring France into the AUKUS conversation? Should not the Prime Minister have immediately reacted to the hurt feelings of the French by having a conversation with President Macron to see how the relationship can be put on a sound footing again?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I simply respond to the noble Lord by observing that the instigator of this new arrangement was actually Australia: it was Australia that decided that it wished to change its model of submarine. That is why it approached both the United Kingdom and the United States. As the noble Lord will understand, there are clearly issues of profound commercial sensitivity inherent within that, and that inhibited our ability to be more public or widespread in our consultations.

Defence and Security Industrial Strategy

Lord Liddle Excerpts

Wednesday 24th March 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

The last point the noble Lord alluded to is very important. Yes, I agree, and we hope that that indeed will be the consequence of the application of this strategy in practice.

On the other issues to which the noble Lord referred, again, early, close engagement between MoD and industry will go a long way to achieving the clarification he seeks. Certainly, introducing intellectual property strategies into the MoD’s acquisition processes for defence programmes to better incentivise and manage risk will also go a long way towards addressing some of the points he raises.

[Lord Liddle (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I welcome the integrated review and the defence papers that have come from it; that shows a willingness to engage in long-term thinking. My concern is that the emphasis on sovereign capability comes up against our long history of overspending on defence procurement and the difficulty of controlling programmes. What is the Government’s attitude towards common European defence procurement as a means of securing greater cost-efficiency? Why is it that in Europe we are ending up with two separate attempts to produce a next-generation future combat air system? Would it not make more sense to go for a single common approach? In the past, the financial viability of UK defence business has often been secured by arms sales. Do the Government recognise that in future, this is likely to come up against lots of ethical foreign policy and human rights concerns?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

The strategy lays out a clear basis for how we will engage not just with our companies at home but with potential suppliers abroad. At the end of the day, we want a quality product providing what our Armed Forces need at a price fair to the taxpayer. Internally, we will be very clear about the pricing structures for these products. Equally, we are very clear that, if we are going abroad or dealing with an international provider, we will monitor and scrutinise that closely. We will be guided on a case-by-case basis as to what we need, who best can provide it and whether it needs to be regarded as a strategic imperative or to have operational independence, in which case it will almost certainly be with a UK provider.

British Armed Forces: Global Britain

Lord Liddle Excerpts

Thursday 21st January 2021 Grand Committee

[Lord Liddle (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, we have a disgracefully short time in which to debate a vital topic. I agree with virtually everything that the noble Lord, Lord Lancaster, said in his introduction. My fear is that the promotion of global Britain gives us back the idea that we are somehow a global great power. We have to recognise that we are not. We should not go back to the decision to withdraw east of Suez that we took in 1968. We have plenty of interests in Europe and its neighbourhood, where we have to play a vital role, given the Balkan tinderbox, the dangers of Russian revanchism, tensions in the Mediterranean and the north African problems to which other noble Lords have referred. We must avoid overreach. I support a stronger defence budget, but we must not imagine that we are what we were.

Queen’s Speech

Lord Liddle Excerpts

Monday 23rd May 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Liddle (Lab)]

My Lords, I put on record my appreciation of the wonderful valedictory speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Jolly.

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Lord Liddle]

I am so sorry—of the noble Baroness, Lady Perry. Hers has been a wonderful life of public service. I also express my appreciation of the maiden speech of my noble friend Lady Jowell, which I thought was inspirational.

This debate is about Britain’s role in the world. There is a real question mark about what that would be in the event of a Brexit vote. It is a question that the Brexiteers are extremely reluctant to address, for a very good reason. Since the 1960s there has been a remarkable consensus among the political leadership in Britain that our national strategy—not any party strategy but our national strategy—is based on our membership of the European Union. Every Prime Minister since Harold Macmillan has thought that. Every Chancellor of the Exchequer has thought that while they held the office, as has every Foreign Secretary. Certainly the noble Lord, Lord Owen, used to think that when he was Foreign Secretary—although he is entitled now to what I regard as his very idiosyncratic opinions.

There has been this remarkable consensus, which has rested on two pillars: first, the economic judgment that it was right to put Europe at the centre of our trading and economic relationships, and, secondly, that Europe is an essential foundation of our security and political influence. On the economy, we have benefited enormously in the past half century from our membership of the EU. The City has become the financial centre of the European single market. That is a huge achievement. Also, the inward investment that we have obtained as a result of being in the single market has done so much to revive Britain’s moribund and badly managed industrial sector—as it was 40 or 50 years ago. I know from my part of the world how important foreign inward-investing firms are to decent jobs and wages in our country.

On political influence, while it is true that NATO won the Cold War, it is equally true that the process of European union secured peace and reconciliation in Europe—reconciliation first between France and Germany and now between Germany and Poland, uniting the once-fascist dictatorships and the once-communist autocracies in a union of democracies. It is a wonderful achievement. It must also be the case that Churchill’s vision in the 1940s at the end of the war of Britain at the centre of three circles—the empire and the Commonwealth, the Atlantic alliance, and Europe—has effectively collapsed into one central role in the European Union. It is significant that no Commonwealth Prime Minister, as far as I know, supports our exit—and, as for the Americans, it is only Donald Trump. So Europe is at the centre of our national strategy and we should not allow the Brexiteers to destroy that.

I worry that the Brexiteers’ real ambition is not just to take Britain out of the EU but to see the break-up of the EU. I thought that that theme was very strong in Michael Gove’s speech. He seemed to think that Brexit would be a signal for a kind of disintegration of the EU—a return to the 19th century Concert of Europe of independent nations. Of course, what underpinned that was vicious nationalism within countries, which led directly to the Battle of the Somme, the anniversary of which we will celebrate the weekend after our referendum vote. So let us have the confidence to reject the pessimists. Europe is at the centre of our economic and political security—and, I believe, of a decent quality of life in this country. I very much hope that we will vote to remain.

Defence Capabilities: EUC Report

Lord Liddle Excerpts

Wednesday 24th October 2012 Grand Committee

[Lord Liddle]

My Lords, this is an excellent report, and it was well introduced by the noble Lord, Lord Teverson. I do not think that I will speak for long because the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, has said what I intended to say.

I believe that, in terms of the general context of our deteriorating relationship with the European Union, we should seize with both hands the opportunity to lead in Europe on questions of European defence capabilities. The Foreign Secretary made his first speech about Britain and Europe yesterday. I think it is the first major speech he has made on the subject since he became Foreign Secretary. From my perspective as a committed pro-European, it was not as bad as I might have feared. He is right, of course, that we are moving to a variable geometry Europe. There is no prospect in the near future of Britain becoming part of the euro inner core, but there is a real opportunity here for Britain, and it is disappointing that the Foreign Secretary did not take it and emphasise it. There is a real opportunity for Britain to take a much stronger lead on European defence. I would like to hear from the Minister how he sees this key strategic question for Britain.

One of the key points that the report emphasises, which I think a lot of people in the Conservative Party get rather mixed up, is that NATO and the EU are not a choice. Seeing NATO and the EU as some kind of choice is the problem as regards a lot of people who are reluctant to go down the EU defence road. I just do not see that. What I see as a problem is that we are no longer engaged in an existential fight for freedom as we were for much of the post-war era and America’s priorities are changing. We see a shift from its willingness ultimately to rescue us in the former Yugoslavia, in both Bosnia and Kosovo, to the attitude it took towards Libya and now Syria. There is a shift in the US outlook, and Europe simply has to get its act together if it wants to be in a position to defend its values and interests. We, more than the United States, are on the front line of terrorism in Europe, and we face a more immediate threat from failing states in Africa. We stand to lose more from the Middle East conflict. Our neighbourhood is a very unstable place. We have to find a way of seizing the opportunities of the Arab spring. Europe has to get its act together. One of the strengths of the European Union is that it has potentially a lot of soft power; for example, in its trade relations, in the aid that it can give and in the cultural and diplomatic relations that it can offer. Nevertheless, it also needs that hard, military capability to intervene if necessary, which is so badly lacking, as was shown in the recent Libya campaign.

I do not think that the challenges of austerity for defence budgets are going to go away in the present decade. We have to face the fact that the pressure on defence budgets is going to get worse. I do not think that we have seen the worst of what is likely to happen to the UK defence budget. I would not say that we have reached, as it were, the bottom baseline. For Britain, it poses some very big choices. We have already, without actually saying so, abandoned the idea that we have the full range of capabilities that the US has, except on the smallest scale. Nevertheless, we face the challenge of making procurement cheaper, and common procurement through the European Union is one of the ways of doing that. In addition, we have to think about how we share roles and how we specialise in roles with our European partners. This is a very touchy subject because it goes to the heart of national sovereignty, but we have to face up to it if we are going to be honest about what we are going to be able to do efficiently within our limited budgets.

I am not saying that we have to go for the full community method on defence procurement or anything like that. I think that we need more practical co-ordination, but we should not be ruling out using EU methods where they might work and where they might lead to better value for money and enable the defence budget to be more effective. There is a real challenge for us because of the budgetary position, but also a real opportunity to lead in Europe, and I hope that the Government will take it.

European Defence Agency

Lord Liddle Excerpts

Tuesday 23rd October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I have read the report of Sub-Committee C and, as I said in my reply, we will take this into account in the review.

[Lord Liddle]

My Lords, does the Minister accept that, in the age of financial austerity that he referred to, there is a very strong case for common defence procurement if it can be done economically within Europe, and that potentially the agency has a huge role to play in making that work much better than it has in the past?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I agree with that. If we can do it economically, this makes a lot of sense.

Strategic Defence and Security Review

Lord Liddle Excerpts

Friday 12th November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Liddle]

My Lords, I became deeply involved in defence when, in 1997, I was made the No. 10 representative on the strategic defence review steering group. It was a wonderful experience. I gained enormous respect for the ministerial team that led that review, all of whom now grace the Benches of this House. My noble friend Lord Robertson of Port Ellen led the review with tact, decisiveness and a quality of judgment that were wonderful to behold, and was very ably supported by the noble Lords, Lord Reid of Cardowan and Lord Gilbert. I also gained a lot of respect for the civil servants and military who advised him. Those military personnel were then led by the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Guthrie of Craigiebank. I ended up being an unqualified admirer of our Armed Forces, even after the Navy subjected me to the terrifying experience of making me climb up a rope ladder on to a destroyer.

I should like to reflect a little on the lessons of the past 13 years that should have been learnt by the current review. First, the Labour Government should have carried out more defence reviews. Excellent as was the 1997-98 review, we should have had another early in the 2001 Parliament after 9/11 to look at the consequences of that, and a third at the start of the 2005 Parliament to draw conclusions from what happened in Iraq and from the deteriorating situation in Afghanistan. Fighting two wars of this intensity simultaneously was not in our 1997-98 planning assumptions, and although the Labour Government always—despite allegations to the contrary—fully funded the operational requirements of the forces from the contingency reserve, the consequence was a hollowing out of our force structures as a result of the strains put on equipment and people who were being asked to do more than had been anticipated. This review has gone well beyond hollowing out; what we see is amputation, and this is not a sustainable solution for the long term.

The second lesson is that when Governments carry out defence reviews, they should fully fund them. Defence should not be seen as something that can be raided to fund social programmes—and I say this from the Labour side—as it fulfils a vital role for all Governments, including Labour Governments. In 1998, we fudged the money a little by claiming that there was a sort of pot of fool’s gold called 3 per cent a year efficiency savings. A lot of efficiency savings can be made in the MoD. Indeed, the proposals in the 1998 review regarding logistics and the attempt to reform procurement were intended to achieve efficiency savings. Certainly, it is clear from Bernard Gray’s excellent independent report that he produced for John Hutton that procurement has not been smart and there is a lot further to go. There will always be an element of politics in procurement decisions, and Bernard’s recommendation on setting up an arm’s-length body will not get rid of that entirely but it will make the process more transparent.

I do not believe that we should decide to build a new generation of submarine deterrents—nor do I think anyone else does—just because we want to preserve the Barrow shipyard, though, as a Cumbrian, I very much want to do that. Nor do I think we should build aircraft carriers just because they will be refitted at Rosyth. But, equally, we should not fool ourselves that free market principles of open competition can be applied simply as a dogma as regards defence. The ability to manufacture complex, high-tech equipment is something that we should want to maintain in Britain, or in co-operation with our European partners, out of a concern to maintain an advanced industrial policy and our own strategic capabilities. The review is largely silent on this issue, promising a further policy statement—but this is crucial.

Thirdly, our defence planning should be built on a clear concept of Britain's role in the world. It is becoming conventional wisdom that Tony Blair got all this wrong; that his belief in military intervention was conceptually flawed and committed us beyond our resources; and that Iraq and Afghanistan have demonstrated very painfully the limits of military power. The present Government do not say this explicitly, but I feel that they believe it. William Hague's talk of a stronger concept of national interest suggests the implicit rejection of a values-based foreign and defence policy. In retrospect, I have come to the conclusion—I know that other noble Lords will disagree—that Tony Blair made an honest misjudgement on Iraq. Also, the priority of Iraq over Afghanistan—which was the US’s priority in the middle of the previous decade—allowed the Taliban to rebuild its position and, as a result, now makes the war in Afghanistan very difficult if not impossible to win, at least in the nation-building terms that Tony Blair outlined in his wonderful speech to the Labour conference in 2001. I was interested in the judgment of the Institute for Strategic Studies on this in its recent report.

In these circumstances, the bravery of our service men and women, and their appalling losses of life and limb, cause me to feel intense admiration and immense distress in equal measure. However, it would be a great mistake to draw from the experience of the past decade the conclusion that humanitarian military intervention is fundamentally misconceived. The defence policy assumptions of the late 1990s were based on their own judgments of “never again”. Never again, because of lack of strategic airlift, would we find ourselves helpless to stop genocide in Rwanda. Never again would Europe, because of a lack of effective firepower when the Americans were reluctant to act, be a helpless bystander in the face of appalling atrocities in Bosnia and the former Yugoslavia.

Humanitarian intervention did work in Kuwait in the early 1990s and, with eventual US support, in Bosnia and then Kosovo. British intervention saved democracy and thousands of lives in Sierra Leone. There are just wars and interventions. Tony Blair got it right most of the time. The ultimate question is one of judgment about where military power can be effective and where it cannot. However, one cannot make those judgments unless the Government have provided effective resources and forces to be deployed. We cannot allow wrong conclusions drawn from the past decade to lead to military and moral retreat.

That brings me to my final point about Britain's relations with America and Europe. The advent of the Obama Administration represented a wonderful opportunity to rebuild the transatlantic alliance between a multilateralist United States and a values-based Europe. It is a profound regret that Europe has not sufficiently stepped up to the table. However, I challenge the assumption that, because of part of Europe's feebleness, Britain must continue to design its defence posture on the very expensive assumption that we must be capable of fighting independently alongside the United States in future wars. I wonder whether this is a sustainable political concept. For instance, if we had a Tea Party-backed Republican President appealing to an angry and frustrated American public who wanted to show that they can punch their enemies on the nose, would the British public support that kind of military action? I believe better planning assumption is that we would fight with the Americans only when our principal European allies were willing to do so as well. Not only does that make great sense, but it is absolutely vital to build common defence capabilities with our European partners. I hope that will drag our partners to accept more responsibility themselves.

I congratulate the Government on their defence treaties with the French. Surely, that must be the way forward. I welcome Liam Fox and David Cameron to the world of European co-operative partnership, as they describe it—I call it pooled sovereignty but I do not see much difference. In a review that leaves so many major gaps in our key capabilities, surely, instead of being reluctant about European co-operation, the Government should now embrace it with enthusiasm.